Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thorinXXX 04-02-07, 11:28 AM	There have been some questions on retraining, and level loss. Most important seems to be, 'What happens if I leveled, retrained, and then lost a level?' Sanity says that retraining is unaffected. Anything else is entirely too big a headache to contemplate. But sanity has never been a consideration for LG rules before. Rules wise, I would say that retraining occurs before any benefits of leveling, and so is unaffected by loss of those benefits from level loss. In addition, despite being done at a later point, the feature is in effect a property of the lower level. E.G. A 5th level fighter cannot retrain his 1st level bonus feat to Weapon Specialization. Anyone have any other thoughts on the subject?
ShinAkuma2 04-02-07, 01:46 PM	You have already retrained by the time you died. Dying doesn't change that any more than purchasing a powerful item, then dying, effects your ability to own that item (barring an intelligent item that only hangs around people with certain BAB, or whatever).
Iswald 04-02-07, 10:06 PM	You gain a level. You pick a class. You retrain. You die. You lose your retraining. You lose a level. You regain your level. You pick a class, which doesn't have to be the same one. You retrain, paying TUs and gold again. Or, skip retraining since it didn't help enough the first time. ;)
zigspatty 04-02-07, 10:39 PM	You gain a level. You pick a class. You retrain. You die. You lose your retraining. You lose a level. You regain your level. You pick a class, which doesn't have to be the same one. You retrain, paying TUs and gold again. Not quite, IMO... You gain a level, pick a class, and retrain your first level feat. Then you gain all the benefits of the new class: HP, BAB, stat bumps, spells, saves, class abilities, additional skills, etc. You go on some adventures, maybe just one, maybe a dozen. You buy some stuff, gain some favors, have some fun. THEN you die. And get raised except that you're one level lower than you used to be. You've still got most of the stuff you bought during that lost level (except 5,000+ gp for the raise) You lose all the benefits of the level in whatever class you took. Why should you also lose the 1st level feat you paid to retrain? It's not actually part of your benefits for that level any more than the +2 widget you bought 3 adventures ago....
DroidTrooper 04-02-07, 10:54 PM	I think you can expect table variations. I'd allow the player to retain the retraining. I don't see any issues with Feats, Class abilities, spells, or substitution levels. Of course if you lose multiple levels beyond the point where you would have received such ability then it would go away. The technical problem is of course with the skill retraining because they had to get all complicated with that particular issue by allowing you reference the future class selection.
Jay_Ibero_911 04-02-07, 11:30 PM	I think you can expect table variations. I'd allow the player to retain the retraining. I don't see any issues with Feats, Class abilities, spells, or substitution levels. Of course if you lose multiple levels beyond the point where you would have received such ability then it would go away. The technical problem is of course with the skill retraining because they had to get all complicated with that particular issue by allowing you reference the future class selection. Whoa...that just brought to mind a boatload of wierd possibilities in the event that retraining isn't lost if you lose a level. For instance, a PC who wanted to do a druid/sorcerer mystic theurge without spending skill points cross class on knowledge (religion), could take his 6th level as cleric, retraining 4 ranks into religion, then die, but technically keep those 4 ranks, then level up and retrain 2 more ranks into religion to meet the MT requirements, die again but keep the ranks, and then continue on to sorc4/druid3/ MTX...basically paying 10,000 gold (assuming 2 raise deads) for the 6 skill points saved by not having to cross class, as well as bypassing the normal skill cap with wierd rules.
Lupo 04-03-07, 03:26 AM	There have been some questions on retraining, and level loss. Most important seems to be, 'What happens if I leveled, retrained, and then lost a level?' Sanity says that retraining is unaffected. Anything else is entirely too big a headache to contemplate. But sanity has never been a consideration for LG rules before. Rules wise, I would say that retraining occurs before any benefits of leveling, and so is unaffected by loss of those benefits from level loss. In addition, despite being done at a later point, the feature is in effect a property of the lower level. E.G. A 5th level fighter cannot retrain his 1st level bonus feat to Weapon Specialization. Anyone have any other thoughts on the subject? as retraining is a "benefit" of leveling up, it should go away when a level is lost - with all dire consequences - and yes, it might cause an unlucky player to loose some extra gold and TUs BUT on the other hand will prevent some hyper cheese weasels from coming up with super munchkin builds ;). to me "retraining" should be a rare event in a character's career, i would even support a restriction of characters to have only one or two retrainings (getting retrainings with circle approval for rules change being an exception), some builds at the character board include retraining every second level nowadays :rolleyes: . so if a character looses a level, look up what the retraining was and undo it, very simple, as the retraining should be cleraly documented or even better your old character sheets should be stored somewhere. ciao martin m.
pedr 04-03-07, 06:27 AM	Logically, however, losing retraining makes no sense. D&D assumes you are working towards your next level throughout your previous one. Given that you also spend time and money retraining, I would say that these things go hand-in-hand. As retraining doesn't affect your new level at all (particularly with the 'previous max-ranks' clarification) I think that the benefits should stay. The alternative is weird. The only 'exploit' would be that you might retrain ranks to a skill which is only a class skill for a new class, then lose your only level of that new class. Perhaps then you are bound to take that class again the next time you level.
Mommy was an Orc 04-03-07, 08:58 AM	Logically, however, losing retraining makes no sense. It makes no less sense than losing skill points or a feat when you die. It may have been your 1st level feat, but you took that intensive class on how to do say Power Attack at your current level. I'd rule you'd lose the benefits.
Timlagor 04-03-07, 12:02 PM	Clearly we have a nice lot of variation :)
thorinXXX 04-03-07, 02:27 PM	As this is a leveling issue, nobody but the Circle gets to rule for or against. Leveling is done between tables, and a judge's authority stops at the table he just ran. So the only way to spot this is to do audits on every character that ever died. Skills are the only bit that throws confusion into the mix. Outside of skills, all retraining effectively takes place at the level of the original selection, not the level of retraining. otherwise a 5th level fighter could retrain one of the feats he took at 1st level into Weapon Specialization. Lastly, the circle needs to make a ruling on this. How this interacts with TU's and GP spent is a campaign issue, not a core rules issue.
Landale 04-03-07, 05:06 PM	as retraining is a "benefit" of leveling up, it should go away when a level is lost - with all dire consequences - and yes, it might cause an unlucky player to loose some extra gold and TUs BUT on the other hand will prevent some hyper cheese weasels from coming up with super munchkin builds ;). to me "retraining" should be a rare event in a character's career, i would even support a restriction of characters to have only one or two retrainings (getting retrainings with circle approval for rules change being an exception), some builds at the character board include retraining every second level nowadays :rolleyes: . martin m. I agree, you shouldn't retrain unless you need to. However, I disagree with needing the circle's approval or being limited to a few times. I currently have a fighter with 4 levels that I started last year and 7 feats, as per normal. I have found that what I wanted to do won't work for my character, and it took until 4th level to learn that. Now, I have to retrain over the next 4 levels to undo the damage that I did due to my ignorance. More than that, I have a ranger that I started 4 years ago, who has ranks in Hide and Move Silently =P. I have NEVER used them except once in the 11 levels that I've played him, and they are totally worthless, considering the people I travel with. Essentially, they are wasted skills. With retraining, it will take me a few levels to be rid of them, but I can put those ranks into more useful skills like Knowledge Nature/Dungeoneering, or perhaps a few more into Search, or maybe even learn a language or two with the new level's skill points while putting the old points into something else (Spot, Listen, Survival all maxed). Frankly, I am lucky that I only made a few mistakes in my character throughout his career. I know several fighters who took Tower Shield Proficiency as a feat because they didn't the class correctly, as an example. Retraining once per level is good, but I think it should only be used to undo mistakes that you made with your character, not to power-game to the max. =P
Suvarov454 04-06-07, 03:32 PM	Whoa...that just brought to mind a boatload of wierd possibilities in the event that retraining isn't lost if you lose a level. For instance, a PC who wanted to do a druid/sorcerer mystic theurge without spending skill points cross class on knowledge (religion), could take his 6th level as cleric, retraining 4 ranks into religion, then die, but technically keep those 4 ranks, then level up and retrain 2 more ranks into religion to meet the MT requirements, die again but keep the ranks, and then continue on to sorc4/druid3/ MTX...basically paying 10,000 gold (assuming 2 raise deads) for the 6 skill points saved by not having to cross class, as well as bypassing the normal skill cap with wierd rules. You got your order wrong. 1) Gain enough XP to attain level 6. 2) Retrain something you selected for levels 1-5, using your class features at those levels, and requiring you to have a valid build at the end of this step. 3) Choose Cleric 1 for your 6th level. 4) Spend 2+Int bonus skill points on anything (with enough Int, 4 ranks of Knowledge(Religion)). 5) Die, lose a level, including all skill ranks gained in step 4). 6) Gain enough XP to attain level 6 again. 7) Choose to retrain more, but still without Cleric 1 (you lost that level in step 5). 8) Choose Cleric 1 again. 9) Spend 2+Int bonus skill points however you want (you don't have to repeat your choices in step 4). Looking at it in very small steps makes it clear that the effect of retraining should not be affected by losing a level. Retraining should be identical as choosing correctly the first time (except for paying the GP and TU cost, because you needed to correct your mistake). P.S. is it obvious that I'm a Math major and a computer programmer? :)
Suvarov454 04-06-07, 04:02 PM	Frankly, I am lucky that I only made a few mistakes in my character throughout his career. I know several fighters who took Tower Shield Proficiency as a feat because they didn't the class correctly, as an example. Retraining once per level is good, but I think it should only be used to undo mistakes that you made with your character, not to power-game to the max. =P In my opinion, the cost of retraining feats in GP and TU is enough to prevent anyone from doing anything except correcting grievous errors. For example, I have a dwarven Fighter/Cleric of Moradin at 3rd level (1/2), and I just spent the time to chart the rest of his career. I also just read in the Living Greyhawk Deities v2.0 that I have more Domains to choose from than in my copy of the PHB (which is v3.0... I don't know if Moradin's feats in the LGD matches the v3.5 PHB). I know now that I will max out my dwarf's Cleric level at 3, which will make his Earth domain almost completely useless after about 3 levels (he won't be able to turn or rebuke any enemy at his APL). If I were to retrain his Weapon Focus (gained at 1st level) to Sheild Specialization at 4th level, and his Earh domain to War at 5th, I can pull his entire feat selections forward by 3 levels (e.g. Melee Weapon Mastery at level 9 instead of 12). The cost of two retrainings, however, when I'm trying desperatly to save for masterwork fullplate, a +1 shield, and a +1 warhammer gives me pause. Do I put off all my planned purchases now so I can take some feats earlier next year?!? I'd have to play two or three more mods without the toys I want, not to mention that I'll have to spend all of 4th level without Weapon Focus. It's the typical "short term loss for long term gain" scenario. I don't think that I'm trying to "power-game to the max", just correcting some errors I made because of my ignorance (I just started playing RPGA this January, and hadn't read all the LG documentation before I had leveled), and yet I am still debating the choice, because of the cost.
DroidTrooper 04-06-07, 05:17 PM	You got your order wrong. 1) Gain enough XP to attain level 6. 2) Retrain something you selected for levels 1-5, using your class features at those levels, and requiring you to have a valid build at the end of this step. 3) Choose Cleric 1 for your 6th level. Looking at it in very small steps makes it clear that the effect of retraining should not be affected by losing a level. Retraining should be identical as choosing correctly the first time (except for paying the GP and TU cost, because you needed to correct your mistake). P.S. is it obvious that I'm a Math major and a computer programmer? :) You are neglecting the text for skill retraining. Skill retraining specifically allows you to shift ranks into a class skill for the class in which you are about to become. Also unlike, the text for feat retraining and class feature the ph2 text never says you have to prove be able to show a legal build before. Languages also suffers from the same problem, all though fewer people care. As by using the language retraining you are gaining access to languages that you probably could not have legal obtained when you received that language. The easiest way to fix the problem would be to remove the 'including a class he is about to gain with his current level increase.' Regardless, as a judge I'd let the player handle it however he/she thought (thus allowing them to keep their retaining) until I see a more concrete ruling that states otherwise.
Swiftbrook 04-06-07, 06:03 PM	My two copper is that the ruling should be: 1) Gain Level 2) Retrain 3) Adventure .... 4) Die, resurected and lose a level 5) Retraining is not lost 6) Regain lost level buy not allowed to retrain 7) continue adventuring I think you should be allowed to retrain only once each time you gain a level number. You may retrain once upon gaining 5th level. If you do and die/res, you can't retrain when you regain 5th level. If you don't retrain then die/res, you may retrain when you again regain 5th level. I'm not a rule monkey, as anyone who's played with me can tell you. But it's just a reasonable solution to a potential problem. -Swiftbrook
Suvarov454 04-07-07, 02:19 PM	You are neglecting the text for skill retraining. Skill retraining specifically allows you to shift ranks into a class skill for the class in which you are about to become. Also unlike, the text for feat retraining and class feature the ph2 text never says you have to prove be able to show a legal build before. You are 100% correct. I missed that sentence. That stupid, rulebreaking, counterintuitive sentence. :confused: The example even showed exactly the same sort of situation (except without the level loss). :eek: Therefore, we must assume that this wasn't an oversight and explain the problem as a mental imbalance or the presence of some chemical influence on the part of the author. :D I shudder to consider alternative reasons for allowing a character to spend skill points as a class they don't have yet! When I DM for my (non-LG) campaign, that sentence will be ignored in favor of the "retraining==correcting mistakes" interpretation of the purpose of these rules.
mlund 04-09-07, 08:38 PM	Since everything except for Skill Retraining is treated as if your character made the retrained decision back at the appropriate level in the first place, level loss due to death or drain should have no impact on that retrained feat / class feature / spell unless it would've impacted the original feat / class feature / spell. Skill retraining is the squeaky wheel though. I'm not sure if anyone is going to bother giving it the oil. - Marty Lund
solbergb 04-10-07, 12:21 PM	yeah..the retraining rules were really clean - except for skill retraining. That block was a mess, and causes 98% of the questions about it. However the Circle has made a "house rule" on it. It still lets you treat stuff as class skills that you shouldn't but you can't exceed the rank caps and you have to qualify for PRC's etc you want to go into without the benefit of the last retrain. I am for leaving it alone. any rule on it is unenforcable, as there is no way to audit character sheets at all, beyond the entries by your character name that some people occasionally put "CHARNAME Aclass3/Bclass2/Aprc2" and the "gained a level" and "lost a level" checkboxes. We don't track feats, skills, etc, nothing that can be modified by retraining. The cost is hefty enough. Let it stay, unless you die so far that you lose the ability entirely (otherwise known as "pre-PHB2 retraining")
David Argall 04-10-07, 09:39 PM	Retraining is a correction of an earlier level "mistake". It is not part of the level you are gaining. And thus it is not part of the level you lose when you die. You reach 6th and retrain your 3rd level feat. That feat is now your 3rd level feat. When you get hit for 100 and die thereafter, you are back to 5th level. When you win a few times after that and regain 6th, you can retrain again.