Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mithreinmaethor 08-16-07, 07:24 AM	Ok with the upcoming announcement [http://theminiaturespage.com/news/519193/] and the 1st book to be released in approx 9 months, how do we see this effecting LG ? I dont see it having an effect in LG until CT 599 at the earliest. So lets discuss what we see coming down the pike. Pure speculation of course
Puggle Halfwine 08-16-07, 08:22 AM	I expect there will be a near-complete rebuild offered. The campaign will continue as normal. There will be some errata issued to the modules which are released just before the rebuild; some will probably contain v3.5 AND v4.0 statblocks. Other than that, little.
LachlarlanIII 08-16-07, 09:44 AM	One can only hope that 4.0 won't completely obsolesize all the 3.5 books, and will instead, revise/clarify most of the problems with 3.5.
Necrochaos 08-16-07, 10:32 AM	See enworld.com for the most up to date announcements. The RPGA room at Gencon is being cleared at 5pm with announcements at 6pm. The new PHB to be release in May of 08. I will be heading to Gencon tonight and I expect that the boards will be flooded about 7pm EST
SgtHulka 08-16-07, 10:41 AM	A random thing to consider...how will this effect the miniatures game and, in turn, what does that mean for Living Greyhawk? I keep hearing that the miniatures game is WoTC's only profitable aspect of DnD right now. If that were the case, one would think the new version would be backward-compatible. Not in order to please RPG fans, but so they don't antagonize the miniatures fans who recently dropped fifty bucks on e-bay for an out of productoin uber-commander. Making all out of production miniatures suddenly obsolete...like Wizkids supposedly did with Mage Knight...would likely kill that game. So that, in a bizarre way, offers some hope for backwards compatibility with the role-playing game. On the other hand, I've read on the DDM forums that one of the 4e threads (before that page got locked) was to discuss the "new" miniatures game. Which suggests WoTC is indeed throwing DDM out with the bathwater. So that, in a bizarre way, offers some despair. The other weird thing...according to the press release they seem to be tying 4e strongly into the digital initiative (virtual tabletop, PC creation tools, GM tools). And yet emphasizing a virtual tabletop undercuts the minis game, since it reduces the need role-players have for minis. I'm beginning to wonder if rumors of the minis game's profitability were exaggerated. Ignoring all of the above tea leaves, and taking WoTC at its word through the press release, all 4e sounds like is DnD "lite". Not sure I would take WoTC at their word, though, since they've also repeatedly said "we have no plans for 4e" lol. Also, for what its worth, Scott Greene of Necromancer Games posted to their forums that he had attended the "special announcement" last night and that WoTC had claimed that 4e *would* be OGL.
The_Jester 08-16-07, 10:48 AM	Well the rumours (which I still don't believe) are that the core books will drop in May. So that means the RPGA will get them half-way through May and LG authors can begin writing mods using the new rules to premier August at the earliest. So they could have the two systems going at once with (likely one-way) conversions to update characters and swapping to the new rules as soon as feasible. But that would cause a terrible, terrible split with people turned away from tables because they've only got characters for the wrong system. And people unable to do story-arcs because the character for it uses the wrong rules. And people (especially new players) unable to play old mods because they’re outdated. I know one of my characters is on a time-limit due to a “curse” and if he doesn’t play the right mods it’s perma-death. The one option would be to give people time and “premier” 4E LG in ’09 but I doubt WotC will be happy to have one of their big worldwide campaigns using the old rules for half a year (to say nothing of un-retired mods which could be legally played until the end of ’09). The other option would be to side-launch 4E LG with separate mods and brand new characters. They’d be a heck of a lot easier to write because people could just stick to APLs 2-8 as everyone would be starting fresh. But this is essentially kills or removes from play everyone’s favourite characters. Option four is to not even start Year 8 and as soon as the announcement drops stop all work on new mods for the next year, just pump out extra Year 7 mods for the first few months of ‘08. And then start up Year 8 as 4E as soon as the books are released and have the authors convert old outlines to the new rules (have them write everything but the stats). Although, personally, I won’t be making the switch. I have soooo many 2E books, the core 3E books plus ungodly amounts of 3.5 books picked up mostly for LG. I’ve spent almost $400 (usd) on D&D 3.5 alone and there’s no way I’m starting fresh. Unless they’re all crazy-easy to convert (which I doubt, if the old books would still work they could never sell you new ones) I’ll be one of those old curmudgeons sticking to the outdated system.
The_Jester 08-16-07, 10:54 AM	As for minis, since the "rules" are all on cards it would be crazy-easy to make the old figures usable but simply change ALL the rules and then offer everyone new, shinier download-able cards for all the old figures. It would shake things up as some older, unwanted figures might benefit from the change and become sought after while more powerful figures might have a price drop. And there's bound to be figures that simply came out wrong being worth too many (or too few) points with abilities that didn't work as expected. I know Soth's pretty craptastic for his point count.
SgtHulka 08-16-07, 10:59 AM	As for minis, since the "rules" are all on cards it would be crazy-easy to make the old figures usable but simply change ALL the rules and then offer everyone new, shinier download-able cards for all the old figures. It would shake things up as some older, unwanted figures might benefit from the change and become sought after while more powerful figures might have a price drop. And there's bound to be figures that simply came out wrong being worth too many (or too few) points with abilities that didn't work as expected. I know Soth's pretty craptastic for his point count. Good point, especially since they've already offered every single card for free as a download.
darrell_uk 08-16-07, 11:26 AM	One option that hasn't been mentioned, maybe for fear of bringing it up, is that the powers that be will tell the RPGA to stop running LG... To be honest, I think that its way too early still to be trying to work out how any form of transistion will occur, if any at all. We're better off waiting to see if Wizards do the same form of "leaked" information in the on-line Dragon for this edition that they did in the old Dragon for 3rd edition. That way we may get some idea as to how compatible the systems will be.
The_Jester 08-16-07, 11:34 AM	One option that hasn't been mentioned, maybe for fear of bringing it up, is that the powers that be will tell the RPGA to stop running LG... That is the mostly likely event.
CSHunt68 08-16-07, 11:47 AM	The MOST likely? I doubt it.
gomeztoo 08-16-07, 12:07 PM	Aaaannnnd... more links: http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/11123.html Which says: - new default setting will be 'campaign neutral' (so no Eberron) - some series will end in 3.5 (say bye to Eberron?) - epic level play up to 30th level (meh) - no 'revolutionary' changes (apparently) Seems that LG is not in boiling water yet So, ofcourse, everything is still heresay until may...
CSHunt68 08-16-07, 12:18 PM	It's not "hearsay", it's just not carved in stone.
Redfist 08-16-07, 12:58 PM	This is a request to the CIRCLE. I understand that 4E is going to have some measure of effect on LG. To what extent, who knows - certainly not us players. :D My request is that the CIRCLE let us know AS SOON AS POSSIBLE (after they know and have discussed the issue internally and with WoTC) what will happen to LG and **to our current characters**. This is an obvious point, but I have a reason for asking that perhaps people haven't thought of. There are multiple possibilities here, some of which could involve invalidating our current PCs (ie: either stopping LG altogether or forcing a "reboot" and have everyone make new 1st level 4E PCs). If the eventual "news" for LG implies loosing current characters, I personally would want as much notice as possible so I could optimize play time appropriately. If all PCs are getting wiped, why would I bother with my 2nd level PCs who "become interesting" at 6th level? I wouldn't - it's a waste of time. Instead, I'd play my medium and high level PCs towards retirement. Please help us, the players, avoid wasted time if it's at all possible. Thanks, Gordon
Eric Anondson 08-16-07, 01:16 PM	My request is that the CIRCLE let us know AS SOON AS POSSIBLE (after they know and have discussed the issue internally and with WoTC) what will happen to LG and **to our current characters**. This is an obvious point, but I have a reason for asking that perhaps people haven't thought of.I think the CIRCLE will let us know when they are told they can.
Drezden 08-16-07, 01:17 PM	Yep. A former Triad announced on our local boards back in April that 1) 4.0 was coming next year; 2) that it was going to incorporate aspects of the Star Wars system; and 3) That LG would be ending and that a new Forgotten Realms campaign would be started at GenCon. We all told him he was crazy then. Not that 1 and 2 were correct, I fear 3 is too. That would really stink. I hope LG can continue in some form - even if it is a complete re-set -- new 1st level characters only. I like Greyhawk better than FR. Daren That is the mostly likely event.
darrell_uk 08-16-07, 01:20 PM	Another quote from the article that gomeztoo liked: "Concepts for 4th Edition gameplay were tested in the new Star Wars RPG, and the Book of 9 Swords. "
lseelba 08-16-07, 01:24 PM	I'm going to have to look at Book of 9 Swords to get some sort of idea what they are talking about.
bhale187 08-16-07, 02:29 PM	I think the CIRCLE will let us know when they are told they can. I couldn't agree more. I have no doubt that the CIRCLE will be forth coming with all the information they can give, when they can give it.
TheBlackFlail 08-16-07, 04:39 PM	Given the information in this article: http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/inquest/005672645.cfm LG will either be a dead letter, or have to completely reboot at lvl 1 by this time next year. Booo! Hisss!
Mithreinmaethor 08-16-07, 04:46 PM	Yes I predict a reset of the Living Greyhawk setting. I dont expect to see it until the CY 599 LGCS though. How this effects people I dont know. And when I first heard about the Digital Initiative I predicted that they were going to have an online play platform also, and it looks like it will. Just speculation but I foresee just the core books being printed. With all supplemental materials being digital downloads (maximizes profits that way) Given the information in this article: http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/inquest/005672645.cfm LG will either be a dead letter, or have to completely reboot at lvl 1 by this time next year. Booo! Hisss!
Eric Anondson 08-16-07, 04:52 PM	Given the information in this article: http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/inquest/005672645.cfm LG will either be a dead letter, or have to completely reboot at lvl 1 by this time next year.Care to cut-n-paste the precise passage that backs up your opinion? I may have missed it but I didn't see anything that hinted that.
Mithreinmaethor 08-16-07, 04:55 PM	Care to cut-n-paste the precise passage that backs up your opinion? I may have missed it but I didn't see anything that hinted that. Here you go Eric. He is just extrapolating what is written here into how it will effect us. As always, the Player’s Handbook, Monster Manual and Dungeon Master’s Guide will be the core of the new edition, and you’ll see them in May, June and July of 2008 respectively, just in time for everyone to get new campaigns up and running for next year’s Gen Con. And yes, Wizards does recommend you begin new campaigns with Fourth Edition. “It’s not going to be as huge a jump,” as from Second Edition to Third Edition, said Slavicsek, “but there’s enough changing in the core system of how we are doing classes and races and characters that we’re not even gonna attempt it—we’re just telling you it’s better to start over.” Conversion went over like a lead balloon with Third Edition anyway.
Mystical_Tutor 08-16-07, 06:05 PM	Quote: Originally Posted by bhale187 Considering WotC's history of fence setting until the last second with information releases: ... End Quote Ya, that is one of the facts of corporate life. There are very few other systems that D&D can be compared to but there are a couple facts that everyone that stops to think will realize. 1) The earlier you announce a replacement product the earlier people stop buying the present product [or even start selling it off]. What does that do to 3d and 4th Qtr profits? 2) How are writers going to provide meaningful access in COR8 +? The basic books have a release time frame but what can be included in COR8-01 for APL 12? 3) How much attention will anyone pay to access presently given to items available only in little known sources? I'm not buying a new book to get something that may not even exist next edition. The facinating question, in my mind, however is: What percentage of the mainstream D&D world will hold out by continuing to game in 3.5 (or like some I know that are still using AD&D) and will there be an attempt by some well meaning souls to go undergound with LG in 3.5 mode? How long could the present volunteer organization (or a repacement organization) keep LG afloat? [Sorry, posted this in a different thread not realizing this thread was available] __________________
Mithreinmaethor 08-16-07, 06:16 PM	Quote: Originally Posted by bhale187 Considering WotC's history of fence setting until the last second with information releases: ... End Quote Ya, that is one of the facts of corporate life. There are very few other systems that D&D can be compared to but there are a couple facts that everyone that stops to think will realize. 1) The earlier you announce a replacement product the earlier people stop buying the present product [or even start selling it off]. What does that do to 3d and 4th Qtr profits? 2) How are writers going to provide meaningful access in COR8 +? The basic books have a release time frame but what can be included in COR8-01 for APL 12? 3) How much attention will anyone pay to access presently given to items available only in little known sources? I'm not buying a new book to get something that may not even exist next edition. The facinating question, in my mind, however is: What percentage of the mainstream D&D world will hold out by continuing to game in 3.5 (or like some I know that are still using AD&D) and will there be an attempt by some well meaning souls to go undergound with LG in 3.5 mode? How long could the present volunteer organization (or a repacement organization) keep LG afloat? [Sorry, posted this in a different thread not realizing this thread was available] __________________ With the release schedule of the 4th edition books for summer next year it wont effect CY 598 at all. Its CY 599 that you need to worry about.
Puggle Halfwine 08-16-07, 06:45 PM	- new default setting will be 'campaign neutral' (so no Eberron) - some series will end in 3.5 (say bye to Eberron?) Well, there goes another of my predictions- only a few to go!
Zanzibax 08-16-07, 08:21 PM	One option that hasn't been mentioned, maybe for fear of bringing it up, is that the powers that be will tell the RPGA to stop running LG... One option is to design a way for Living Greyhawk to be taken over by the players. How might this be done? We likely only have 9 months to accomplish the task. Need to start planning now.
_metz_ 08-16-07, 11:51 PM	Originally Posted by darrell_uk One option that hasn't been mentioned, maybe for fear of bringing it up, is that the powers that be will tell the RPGA to stop running LG... Why would they alienate a big consumer market of volunteers like LG? am I the only one who seems to think it doesn't make sense that everyone is saying it will be the death of LG? It may be the Business student in me, but I am pretty sure alienating a large market goes against the whole point of corporate sales, and I think its stupid to say they are trying to kill off LG. It is in their interest to look after us, and I expect whilst there will be massive inconveniences, the LG community and its worldwide support will be catered to in some fashion. Otherwise they WILL lose sales, and I don't understand how people can't connect this together and are wandering around scaremongering the death of LG!
Eric Anondson 08-17-07, 12:00 AM	am I the only one who seems to think it doesn't make sense that everyone is saying it will be the death of LG? Normally, I'd agree. Playing devil's advocate of sorts. It might be that WotC/RPGA HQ believes that the setting of LG is irrelevent. The player base will flock to any regionally dispersed/divided Living campaign, regardless of setting. Let LG die, start Living Faerun and the player-base will just go there instead. Just a thought. It's probably something HQ has considered. Another reason for everyone who likes the Greyhawk part of LG to buy Expedition of the Ruins of Greyhawk. The sales numbers might influence HQ to keep Living Greyhawk going after 4e.
Zanzibax 08-17-07, 07:07 AM	Why would they alienate a big consumer market of volunteers like LG? Because they reject the idea that we bring them profits.
NiTessine 08-17-07, 08:04 AM	am I the only one who seems to think it doesn't make sense that everyone is saying it will be the death of LG? Nope. It doesn't make any sense, and I do not see them ending Living Greyhawk. A reboot is possible, but it's unlikely LG will be replaced. The setting isn't actually irrelevant. For one thing, it's already there. For another, it's not being developed elsewhere. A Living Faerûn campaign wouldn't work because it'd be forced to deviate from the setting baseline presented in the novels and sourcebooks. It'd be also kinda stupid for the heroes to not even have a chance of preventing all those Realms-Shaking Events. Eberron doesn't have enough discrete regions for the regional model to function. Alternatively, we'd end up with metaregion-sized megaregions, which wouldn't be fun. Dragonlance has both of the problems of the above. Then what? Spelljammer and Planescape aren't workable in the regional system. With Birthright, you lose the point of the setting. Al-Qadim is too far removed from the baseline D&D (and, at the moment, unmarketable). Mystara? Hahahaha. Greyhawk is, at the moment, the best choice for a region-based Living campaign in the 4th edition. There's already a load of stuff ready, the volunteer infrastructure is in place, you have a five-digit number of players you'd risk ******* off, the property is owned by the company and has the most name recognition of the settings not being developed in any other way.
Mithreinmaethor 08-17-07, 08:44 AM	From posts on other regional sites there are Triad and Circle members that are play testing all of the new content. They wouldnt have them doing it if they were going to scrap LG. I am looking for a total character reset in 2009. Or thats what I am guessing
heirodule 08-17-07, 09:29 AM	From posts on other regional sites there are Triad and Circle members that are play testing all of the new content. They wouldnt have them doing it if they were going to scrap LG. I am looking for a total character reset in 2009. Or thats what I am guessing 2009 is fine. 2008 would suck. My 14th level wizard can't finish by mid 2008, and the new PC I'd make for ExRuinGreyhawk this year wouldn't be able to start playing the megamod till mid 2008 anyway, and that was by design, it seems.
Mommy was an Orc 08-17-07, 11:20 AM	As someone who was there at the announcement...(don't expect me to respond to this thread for a couple of days - just thought it was relevant) I think they made several changes that sounded good and a few that sounded ominous for LG. Basically, it looks like they're going to an online subscription model - you pay some kind of unspecified fee, anytime you buy a book, you get an online version of it too. There's a character builder and digital table top, that looked reasonably sophisticated - you should be able to talk to other people online and everyone can see the same map. The good: Subscription model - honestly, this is the best thing for LG, as they want people to adopt it. The people who play LG and for whom the fee isn't an issue will probably like this a lot - no more trying to figure out OpenRPG and getting to adopt it to your system. Rules - it isn't quite clear what the digital table top is capable of - but just imagine that you can ask the game whether or not it is legal for you to charge the monster...end a lot of fights on more obscure issues. Character builder - it seems like the tracking system could be done online and double-checking could be done online. This is less likely. Even still, the ability to unlock books online for free means you should be able to input an item and have a reference for it when you go to game. Though this might mean a lot more laptops. Simplified statblocks - don't know what that means. The ominous: They're trying to go to a 30 level system, incorporating early epic and make all levels equally relevant and balanced. Okay, here's the problem - if I'm WotC, I want LG to look at doing a 30 level system. Unless the game is really well-balanced, I'm not entirely certain how that works. Even it is well-balanced, I'm still not sure how that works. The online play options - if I'm WotC, again, I want people signing up for this and using it - the easiest way to make this happen from LG would be to let people play some mods anywhere - say metaregionals, but not regionals. ----------- Anyway, gotta get ready to judge - just some thoughts. There are elements that seem pretty cool - just with WotC track record on digital, I'm not sure how well it comes off - but on the other hand, with EverQuest and World of Warcraft, there's gotta be someone willing to charge WotC a fee to set up all that and have it work well. It isn't as if pen and paper D&D is a real competitor of those two and it doesn't look lie it would make it a real competitor either.
Loanarn 08-17-07, 11:57 AM	The ominous: They're trying to go to a 30 level system, incorporating early epic and make all levels equally relevant and balanced. Okay, here's the problem - if I'm WotC, I want LG to look at doing a 30 level system. Unless the game is really well-balanced, I'm not entirely certain how that works. Even it is well-balanced, I'm still not sure how that works. The current level cap for LG is 14. The current level cap for in regular D&D is 20. I see no reason why a level cap couldn't exist in 4.0 in LG if it survives 4.0. If LG converts to 4.0 and lets you keep your old characters and convert them you will lose a small part of your player base due to 4.0 changes. Say 5% of the hardcore LG players will stay with 3.5. If they force a reset more people will leave after losing everything they worked for. Lets look at MMO Server Wipes and upgrades. From Everquest 1 to 2 virtually none of the substantial (at the time) player base decided to shift over to the new game because they couldn't keep their old players although since there will be no alternative the numbers wouldn't be as drastic as that scenario most likely. If LG were to be killed off i would suspect there might not even be a living anything for at least a year after 4.0 comes out. One of the articles linked in this thread said that the campaign settings would be released one at a time at the pace of one a year. Considering how many times wizard has tried to replace the world of greyhawk in the past and give the least amount of money to gygax as possible they have tried to establish their own settings with varying success. 4.0 is going to be campagin neutral and i doubt they will make a living neutral if they decide to scrap greyhawk. They would most likely do Faerûn as suggested before.
Umbra_Kaitou 08-17-07, 12:31 PM	Regarding realm choice of living campaigns after 4.0. It seems like they are making a "neutral" setting for the flavor of it, divergent from greyhak do to presence of Tieflings to say the least. Perhaps we'll end up with Living whatever-the-hell-they-decide-to-name-it-realm
Lupo 08-17-07, 12:35 PM	The ominous: They're trying to go to a 30 level system, incorporating early epic and make all levels equally relevant and balanced. Okay, here's the problem - if I'm WotC, I want LG to look at doing a 30 level system. Unless the game is really well-balanced, I'm not entirely certain how that works. Even it is well-balanced, I'm still not sure how that works. at the moment some base and prestige classes are quite unbalanced ;) at least :D right now, frontliners have multiple options of classes and prestige classes while spellcasters are quite stuck with a very limited set of options to create "individual" characters if they want to keep their prime mechanics and tricks. a change to the better would be really welcomed by me :) an anti-frontloadism would be nice for all classes :P stretching the basic game to 30 levels might be a way to do so - hey, i could dig for my original D&D boxes and look how level 35 and attaining of deity status worked anyway, my PHB is worn and ripe for replacement anyway :) ciao martin m
Divine Dwarf 08-17-07, 01:54 PM	The current level cap for LG is 14. The current level cap for in regular D&D is 20. I see no reason . 16? I'm 15th and not retired. Or did you mean APL cap? which seems to be 14 for Cores but regionally can still go 16.
AOSOL 08-17-07, 02:28 PM	The ominous: They're trying to go to a 30 level system, incorporating early epic and make all levels equally relevant and balanced. Okay, here's the problem - if I'm WotC, I want LG to look at doing a 30 level system. Unless the game is really well-balanced, I'm not entirely certain how that works. Even it is well-balanced, I'm still not sure how that works. Great, 15 levels worth of spells. That won't simplify a damn thing. Just what we need, another under developed edition to play. If WOTC keeps it up 5th edition will be out late 2011. I'm probably going to stop playing after 3.5. I see no need to waste money on a game that continuously changes. I SAY NO TO 4th EDITION! IT'S NOT TIME TO CHANGE YET!
Loanarn 08-17-07, 03:23 PM	16? I'm 15th and not retired. Or did you mean APL cap? which seems to be 14 for Cores but regionally can still go 16. Oh that was a typo i meant 16.
Eric Anondson 08-17-07, 03:39 PM	Great, 15 levels worth of spells. That won't simplify a damn thing.What logic leads you to think there will be 15 levels of spells?
Hariman 08-17-07, 04:05 PM	I don't think the Circle would be stupid enough to do a campaign reset. I think a rebuild makes more sense. Unfortunately, this would mean an announcement that "After this point, all players must use 4E material." It will likely come with 599 CY, although it could come earlier. But killing an entire campaign seems stupid. It's already here, you can switch to the new system (As was done with 3.0/3.5) and people will buy books to keep playing. Now who wants to bet that D&D 4E has more base classes in the 4.0 PHB?
solbergb 08-17-07, 04:30 PM	I would prefer a rebuild greatly. As others have stated, campaign ending means I'll stop playing a lot of characters, to try to finish the "Story" of those I've invested more in. I'll almost certainly stop playing any new campaign stuff like Greyhawk Ruins which takes a character to about level 4 and ends. I've got a lot of characters that I'd like to see more play. I'm not going to spend my precious gaming time on any more intro mods if the campaign isn't likely to continue more than a year and a half. I do not know if I will continue if they do a reset, especially if they move to Forgotten Realms or the game system blows chunks :). I won't have any investment in the new campaign the way I have in the existing one. I'd likely just go along with other die-hards playing LG until it dies for lack of volunteer support, trying to play my favorite characters a bit longer and then find another hobby. Kind of like what happened with Living Arcanis and Living City. For now though, I'll pretend none of this is happening until all the details are announced.
Grimslade2001 08-17-07, 04:46 PM	Looks like in the Wizards R&D meeting they spilled the beans that LG will come to a triumphant close next year. Linky MCLink http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=204357 apparently more is forthcoming later today or tomorrow.
CSHunt68 08-17-07, 04:53 PM	Looks like in the Wizards R&D meeting they spilled the beans that LG will come to a triumphant close next year. Linky MCLink http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=204357 apparently more is forthcoming later today or tomorrow. Yep, that sounds like a reboot, not a rebuild.
Mithreinmaethor 08-17-07, 05:03 PM	Yep, that sounds like a reboot, not a rebuild. Yeah I was just coming here to post that. But it worries me that its not reboot, but a new living campaign. There are no guarantees that the LG people will automatically just fall in line for a new living campaign. I will wait to see whats said later today or tomorrow to see if they explain that statement a bit better. And I dont remember if it was this thread or another but someone asked about the Digital Initiative pricing, and I heard it was $9.95 a month. I was hoping for more like $4.95 a month personally.
Bogjob 08-17-07, 05:23 PM	As someone (probably like a lot on here) who has played AD+D since first edition I have heard the argument before, all I can say is that I think LG will survive in some form, possibly Faerun possibly not. I have been through so many edition changes with games since I started not just AD+D that I no longer worry when it happens (not that I am happy about the money I've spent mind you). Remember this is like any other hobby, you have to pay for new kit all the time. The companies who own these games are in it for profit and unfortunately that means upgrades to the system every few years, its the nature of the beast.
Drezden 08-17-07, 05:26 PM	It is almost certainly a new Living Campaign set in FR. Bye, bye Greyhawk.* I agree that I now have no motivation to play low level characters. My primary just retired and I have a secondary that is within striking distance. Aside from finishing him out, I doubt I will be playing much LG. Daren *I hope I am wrong and LG can just do a re-set, but that is looking less and less likely.
Redfist 08-17-07, 05:28 PM	If LG dies, I guess I'll just invest my next $500 in xbox games instead of D&D books. :D
Bogjob 08-17-07, 06:03 PM	Playing Devils Advocate here ;) If LG dies, I guess I'll just invest my next $500 in xbox games instead of D&D books. :D Which you'll play until you finish them and then you'll go out and buy more, or maybe the new console system. I don't see the difference in that and what WoTc are doing with new books :) The only thing I am really hoping is that if there is a new Living campaign that it's not one of the level bump ones as I hate them. :(
AOSOL 08-17-07, 06:07 PM	What logic leads you to think there will be 15 levels of spells? 20 levels = 10 levels (0-9th) 30rd levels =15 level (0-14th) But I read another post, just up to 9th again. 21-30 is epic setting. My mistake.
Redfist 08-17-07, 06:18 PM	Playing Devils Advocate here ;) Which you'll play until you finish them and then you'll go out and buy more, or maybe the new console system. I don't see the difference in that and what WoTc are doing with new books :) The only thing I am really hoping is that if there is a new Living campaign that it's not one of the level bump ones as I hate them. :( The difference is - I can keep playing those games without the game maker yanking it away. I understand and appreciate that corporations need to have continual revenue streams. I'm all for that. However, forcing me to throw out PCs that I've built over years is... disappointing. Surely there are remedies to bridge the gap between "old LG" and "new LG" such as an XP credit - something... to acknowledge and reward previous customer loyalty. I'll gladly buy new books if my previous "investment" (ie: time, not $$) isn't tossed. It may happen - and I hope it does happen. This news is all very new and undoubtedly not fully rolled out so I'm here crossing my fingers.
LachlarlanIII 08-17-07, 06:18 PM	Which you'll play until you finish them and then you'll go out and buy more, or maybe the new console system. I don't see the difference in that and what WoTc are doing with new books :) The big difference is that there is a better secondary market for used games. So even when he finishes the game, he can go out, sell it, and use the money he just earned to buy more games. That's a bit harder to do with old/used DnD books.
Sieylianna 08-17-07, 06:34 PM	LG as we know it is going away. From what I've heard, the triads are out of business as of next year. The new flagship RPGA living campaign will be Forgotten Realms. Ed
Mithreinmaethor 08-17-07, 06:38 PM	LG as we know it is going away. From what I've heard, the triads are out of business as of next year. The new flagship RPGA living campaign will be Forgotten Realms. Ed Here is a quote from a Triad member who is at Gencon. So take from it what you will. Play testing to begin within months. Triad will be participating in the play test. So we'll be able to give feedback about 4e. I'm pumped that we'll be included in the play testing. The announcement was done in the RPGA area - so focus on the player base. (As in it wasn't done in a separate building -> geared towards only media and press). I am surprised we have not seen any posts by Triad and/or Circle members, that are at Gencon, about what has been said so far. I know there is internet access there. I also liked the videos and the part about online gaming. But with a $9.95 a month price tag it will pinch out some players. And I also foresee the end of online games (RPGA at least) with programs other than that provided within the Digital Initiative
Hariman 08-17-07, 07:28 PM	LG IS GETTING RESET NEXT YEAR, NEWS RIGHT NOW, READ THE TOPIC IN THE LINK!!! From the R&D seminar at GenCon: Linky McLink http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=204357 Living Greyhawk – will be coming to a triumphant close next year, and they will be starting fresh with a new batch of characters and players. This will be discussed tonight or tomorrow Brian Further news will filter down as it comes out. I've heard that there's going to be info on "D&D Insider". Hariman
Lupo 08-17-07, 08:19 PM	LG IS GETTING RESET NEXT YEAR, NEWS RIGHT NOW, READ THE TOPIC IN THE LINK!!! From the R&D seminar at GenCon: Linky McLink http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=204357 Living Greyhawk – will be coming to a triumphant close next year, and they will be starting fresh with a new batch of characters and players. This will be discussed tonight or tomorrow Brian Further news will filter down as it comes out. I've heard that there's going to be info on "D&D Insider". Hariman a triumphant end for which of my - eh - 10 or some 12 characters???? (ok, only 7 or 8 active) can i play them all in the same module???? simultaneously??? starting new characters for greyhawk ruins is a great idea - play them till level FOUR, then start over again??? (meta)-regional story arcs, just break them in the middle - no author will start writing a new adventure any more - great ;( only online splat books?? great, i love to read from a computer screen after i do it in my job all day long. have a LG con?? how many power outlets do you have for every player's laptop?? does Hasbro/WotC ship the needed laptop with the PHB??? and HASBRO/WotC is notorious for great performing servers anyway, or isn't it?? if i do want online-gaming i get something like WoW or Diablo! lots of the splat books were poorly edited, half-baked and inconsistent. no problem on paper, but surely will crash ANY online program. if they want to eliminate all but the most enthusiastic customers they are doing fine ;) ciao martin m.
heirodule 08-17-07, 09:16 PM	LG as we know it is going away. From what I've heard, the triads are out of business as of next year. The new flagship RPGA living campaign will be Forgotten Realms. Ed source?
Hariman 08-17-07, 09:23 PM	a triumphant end for which of my - eh - 10 or some 12 characters???? (ok, only 7 or 8 active) can i play them all in the same module???? simultaneously??? starting new characters for greyhawk ruins is a great idea - play them till level FOUR, then start over again??? (meta)-regional story arcs, just break them in the middle - no author will start writing a new adventure any more - great ;( only online splat books?? great, i love to read from a computer screen after i do it in my job all day long. have a LG con?? how many power outlets do you have for every player's laptop?? does Hasbro/WotC ship the needed laptop with the PHB??? and HASBRO/WotC is notorious for great performing servers anyway, or isn't it?? if i do want online-gaming i get something like WoW or Diablo! lots of the splat books were poorly edited, half-baked and inconsistent. no problem on paper, but surely will crash ANY online program. if they want to eliminate all but the most enthusiastic customers they are doing fine ;) ciao martin m. Dude, don't panic. It's still a tabletop RPG. There's just a bunch of crap that's online now so we'll all have to waste printer ink to print it out. And spend money to join D&D Insider. And yeah, I'm hoping for better editing myself. Also, online makes it easier to implement errata, you just need to spend more money printing out the pages. It's still going to be playable on a table with pencil and paper. Hariman PS: Having a forced retirement of PCs next year will suck. It means I'll have to restart a character that I put about 140 hours into. And another character who's got about 50 hours in him. Hopefully, we'll be able to start with some kind of extra benefit for having played old characters. Maybe bonus minis and campaign cards, special creation options or a bump to level 2 or SOMETHING.
Lupo 08-17-07, 09:48 PM	no, no panic here, just some mind slashing curiosity what will happen when the parrot finally hits the ventilator :P Dude, don't panic. It's still a tabletop RPG. There's just a bunch of crap that's online now so we'll all have to waste printer ink to print it out. And spend money to join D&D Insider. And yeah, I'm hoping for better editing myself. Also, online makes it easier to implement errata, you just need to spend more money printing out the pages. despite all the blatant errors that were pointed out by players on several forums and to the customer service, they weren't able to address them properly. and with 3.5. that would have only cost 5 minutes of typing simple text, changing PROGRAMS can cost real money :( It's still going to be playable on a table with pencil and paper. Hariman PS: Having a forced retirement of PCs next year will suck. It means I'll have to restart a character that I put about 140 hours into. And another character who's got about 50 hours in him. Hopefully, we'll be able to start with some kind of extra benefit for having played old characters. Maybe bonus minis and campaign cards, special creation options or a bump to level 2 or SOMETHING. cleric 14 (100 ARs): might make it till level 15 and half way to level 16, so actually no loss :rolleyes: druid 10 (80 ARs): forced out of the universe just when the REAL power comes :weep: monk 8 - planned for monk 9/pious templar x (22 ARs - RHoD): a total loss :weep: cleric 5 (20 ARs): a total loss but not played with to much enthusiasm - was plutonized by killing "divine metamagic" anyway :( wizard 5 (20 ARs): bright desert character just leveled - hey finally i can cast fireball . . . . wait i am GONEEEEEEEEEEEE :weep: some level 1s and 2s no real loss but still each one had been planned for a great career :( at least i didn't pay some fortune for getting a snow elf or kobold creation card on ebay :eek: ciao martin m.
Mystical_Tutor 08-17-07, 10:50 PM	FYI An interesting comment by someone at GenCon last night reporting on the WotC seminar on 4th Ed. "Living Greyhawk – will be coming to a triumphant close next year, and they will be starting fresh with a new batch of characters and players. This will be discussed tonight or tomorrow" http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3707358&postcount=22
qstor 08-17-07, 11:01 PM	how do they know the new campaign is in the Realms??? No Eberron? Mike
MadVlad 08-17-07, 11:18 PM	If Greyhawk goes, then so do I. LG is the best things that happened to this game since it's inception. Wizards is making a huge mistake here....
Mithreinmaethor 08-18-07, 06:00 AM	how do they know the new campaign is in the Realms??? No Eberron? Mike Forgotten Realms is the 1st realm book to come out in 2008. They wont want to wait a year or 2 to replace LG with another Living Campaign so FR is the obvious answer.
Iswald 08-18-07, 07:09 AM	If you had fun playing your characters, did you really waste your time?
darrell_uk 08-18-07, 08:02 AM	And what's to stop you continuing to play them afterwards? As much as I love Living Greyhawk, I'd be more than happy just running on the character into a home game. Heck our regular five/six person gaming group are all within a couple of levels of eachother, it would just be a case of the DM prepping an old adventure from Dungeon magazine rather that downloading a LG one. To quote Chicken Lickin/Little (depending on your side of the Atlantic), "the sky is falling, the sky is falling!"
MadVlad 08-18-07, 08:37 AM	I actually enjoy the "official" , structured presence that Living Greyhawk lends. For all the complaining we do, it's nice to be able to have ARs and access to specific and original stuff. It's nice to go to Cons and meet people that played the same mods and followed the same storylines. Home games are nowhere near the enjoyment, in my opinion....
Sieylianna 08-18-07, 10:14 AM	source? Actually, it's multiple sources and connecting the dots between information on various aspects of 4e, the FR campaign, and the future of LG. I was 99% certain what was going on after Origins and everything announced to date has agreed with what I was previously told. The one thing which may still up in the air is the format of the LG restart. I was told the triads won't be involved a year from now, so I expect a greatly scaled back campaign. Whether that means a D&D campaigns version or something between that and what we have today may depend on the sales of Greyhawk Ruins. Ed
Hariman 08-18-07, 11:21 AM	Actually, it's multiple sources and connecting the dots between information on various aspects of 4e, the FR campaign, and the future of LG. I was 99% certain what was going on after Origins and everything announced to date has agreed with what I was previously told. The one thing which may still up in the air is the format of the LG restart. I was told the triads won't be involved a year from now, so I expect a greatly scaled back campaign. Whether that means a D&D campaigns version or something between that and what we have today may depend on the sales of Greyhawk Ruins. Ed Living Greyhawk might also become "Living New Setting" based on the "Points of Light in a Dark World" blurb about the campaign neutral setting they're working on. Which won't make much difference, as long as it's FUN.
MatteBlack 08-18-07, 11:53 AM	I imagine that they will roll-out the FR version and then play it by ear on how to proceed with LG. I can see ways that the new online applications could really improve an official campaign like LG and firmly believe it will be better. The only question is whether WotC's handling of this will drive away long time players of their living campaigns. I have 2 or 3 years into LG so I imagine that puts me sort of in the middle ground as far as time invested into the campaign goes. The thought of a fresh even start appeals to me about as much as losing my current characters would hurt. Ultimately, it will come down to how much fun, I think I will have but, i know there will be the players who can't let go of the past. Hopefully, they can give some sort of reward to veterans while not hampering the new game. They haven't announced one but, I think a non-combat interaction area for the Character Avatars could be a nice addition that would seem very technically feasable.