| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Necrochaos02-16-06, 06:39 PM | Anyone have a good character build through level 16 for an arcane caster? I'd like to play a gnome, but I'm open to other ideas. I haven't came up with much yet. |
| Lomiat02-16-06, 10:58 PM | There are many good arcane builds. To pick out just one seems somewhat unreasonable. However, if you want to play a straight arcane caster, your first choice is to pick sorceror or wizard (yes, warmage is an option, but you'll lack versatility). Human is easily the best race for a sorceror; a Gnome illusionist sorceror might come a distant second. Grey Elves or Humans typically make the best wizards, but Gnomes, again, make good Illusionists. Some typical builds include a caster headed toward one (or more) of several powerful prestige classes: Archmage, Divine Oracle, Fatespinner, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Loremaster, Mage of the Arcane Order, Ruathar, Shadowcraft Mage, Wild Mage As both Mage of the Arcane Order, Ruathar and Wild Mage are Limited PRCs, you may prefer to direct your character creation toward the other classes. Their feat and skill requirements can guide you along your way through the process. Perhaps the most powerful caster I've ever seen was a Wizard/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Fatespinner, Archmage. He was also 18th level. Counter to the spirit of the PHB, more sorcerors take and use metamagic feats than wizards. A sorceror with a few metamagic spells is almost guaranteed to take Arcane Preparation to allow him/her to cast spells with metamagic applied without increasing the casting time; this allows sorcerors to cast Quickened spells as swift actions. The primary thing to consider, though, is to NEVER give up a spellcasting level. Once you give up a spellcasting level, you're no longer an arcane caster; you're a "generalist"--which means halfway decent at a couple things, not so good at anything (which can be fun to play, but is not terribly "powerful"). If you're thinking of playing a Gnome, I'd recommend that you check out the Shadowcraft Mage prestige class in Races of Stone. |
| Bob_the_Theurge02-17-06, 01:09 PM | The primary thing to consider, though, is to NEVER give up a spellcasting level. Once you give up a spellcasting level, you're no longer an arcane caster; you're a "generalist"--which means halfway decent at a couple things, not so good at anything (which can be fun to play, but is not terribly "powerful"). I beg to differ. Plenty of classes offer some added abilities, at the cost of a few spellcasting levels. You can replace most of that with the Practiced Spellcaster feat, and you'll do fine. If you are dedicated to tossing the absolute highest-level spells at the expense of all yes, you may shy away from classes that lose a couple spellcasting levels. If you aren't, and appreciate some of the other nifty abilities, you may be fine with going down one or two spellcasting levels. It all depends on your character build. |
| Paul H02-17-06, 03:11 PM | Hi Two terms: "Warmage" and "Rainbow Servant". You don't lose spellcasting levels - (Text overules Tables). You gain 3 Domains & their powers, can grow wings, and at 10th Lvl add ALL Cleric spells to your Warmage list - ie, can cast Cleric Spells as spontaneous spells using your charisma as relevant stat! You even gain a few other bonuses. All this for losing few Warmage abilities! :D Cheers Paul H PS Note: You still need appropriate Wis stat to cast spells gained from Domain list, but can use Cha when you gain all Cleric Spells at 10th Lvl. PPS: The prereq. of finding the Coatls is a pain in LG, though :( |
| Mommy was an Orc02-17-06, 05:15 PM | Hi Two terms: "Warmage" and "Rainbow Servant". You don't lose spellcasting levels - (Text overules Tables). You gain 3 Domains & their powers, can grow wings, and at 10th Lvl add ALL Cleric spells to your Warmage list - ie, can cast Cleric Spells as spontaneous spells using your charisma as relevant stat! You even gain a few other bonuses. Ideally you don't lose spellcasting levels...be prepared for massive table variation. I'd personally wouldn't allow it as DM. Also, odds are, for anyone attempting this with a character starting up this year, that they will not get high enough level to pull this off until some 'Prestige Class Compendium' book comes out. As CustServ has indicated this is indeed an exception to the rule, be prepared to have your character nerfed into the ground... |
| Paul H02-17-06, 06:30 PM | Hi Warmage/Rainbow Servant perfectly legal in LG. But would be minimum 16th Lvl char before total access to Cleric spells, ie. Only high level games. (New scenarios starting later 2006 for chars lvl 16+). Would get the lower level benefits, Domain Access, etc. As to Text vs Table rulings - WotC quite explicit - go with Text ONLY. (Example in Complete Divine errata). As GM myself, would have to go with that ruling. At least the worst of the silly stuff is only accessible when char retires from 'normal' games tables! What we judge outside official LG games, in privacy of our own homes, etc...... Cheers Paul H PS Could be lot worse - Mark of Heroes (Living Eberron) has Changeling (shapeshifter subtype, whatever), as basic race. They have Recaster as PrC alowable in campaign! Ie, choose 2 spells from ANY other spell list(s) & add them to your own. Free 'Sudden' metamagic feats, shape spells etc. Only 5 levels! You could also meet prereq for Warshaper as 4th lvl fighter/Ranger/Barbarian etc! |
| Mommy was an Orc02-17-06, 07:30 PM | Actually, I'm more thinking about what happens when you're a Warmage 6/Rainbow Servant 4 - you're down 2 caster levels at that point. Warmage/Rainbow Servant perfectly legal in LG. But would be minimum 16th Lvl char before total access to Cleric spells, ie. Only high level games. (New scenarios starting later 2006 for chars lvl 16+). Would get the lower level benefits, Domain Access, etc. When the text within a product contradicts itself, our general policy is that the primary source (actual rules text) is correct and any secondary reference (such as in a table or a character’s statistics block) is incorrect. Exceptions to the rule will be called out specifically. Well, I'm not you. As I figure only a blatant rules lawyer would even attempt such a stunt, I feel no prohibition against being equally rules lawyer back. And the first thing that jumps out at me is that you're reading that explicitness into the text above when it isn't actually there. General Policy is not must... I'm not going to get drawn out into this particular discussion again, but suffice to say, I'm not changing my mind on this one unless either my Triad or Circle specifically say something on the matter. As to Text vs Table rulings - WotC quite explicit - go with Text ONLY. (Example in Complete Divine errata). As GM myself, would have to go with that ruling. At least the worst of the silly stuff is only accessible when char retires from 'normal' games tables! |
| Namarus02-17-06, 08:29 PM | Normally I would agree with you Orc, but the Start of the Errata for Complete Divine clearly states that Text Trumphs tables. Since WOTC have seen fit to issue an errata for the product, but have no made effort to clear this up, a DM 'has' to go with the offical party line. Otherwise I suggest you contact WOTC customer service, and request that they update their Errata. If you disagree, that's up to you. However, this is a lot like a DM saying I don't agree with 'such and such rule or PrC. I'm not going to allow it. By playing Lg you are bound by the rules to allow such a thing, until the LG campaign staff, or WOTC see fit to address it. |
| Sieylianna02-17-06, 09:26 PM | If you disagree, that's up to you. However, this is a lot like a DM saying I don't agree with 'such and such rule or PrC. I'm not going to allow it. By playing Lg you are bound by the rules to allow such a thing, until the LG campaign staff, or WOTC see fit to address it. Except other people have emails form WotC customer service, saying rainbow servants lose casting. So just because they don't agree with your interpretation doesn't mean a thing. Ed |
| Namarus02-17-06, 10:15 PM | Unfortunately WOTC customer service is not offical campaign errata. At least not unless the FAQ, LGCS or the offical errata is made. |
| Iswald02-17-06, 11:56 PM | There's more than one judge who will say you don't get full caster progression with rainbow servant. |
| Mommy was an Orc02-18-06, 08:50 AM | Normally I would agree with you Orc, but the Start of the Errata for Complete Divine clearly states that Text Trumphs tables. I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being clearly stated at all. If dealing with a non-ruleslawyer, I would likely go with that interpretation as that is the spirit of the statement. However, someone playing by the letter of the rules against the obvious spirit of the rules is bound to play with the letter of the rules. And general policy before rule means it is a general guideline that text trumps table, but there is no imperative at all in the statement. They may have meant that text must always trump table, but that's not what they said. Even exceptions to the rule will be called out specifically isn't clear. Do they mean to say all exceptions or some exceptions to the rule will be called out? Yes, that might sound a bit ruleslawyerish and silly, but as the player of the Rainbow Servant started the ruleslawyer games, I feel free to finish 'em. |
| Necrochaos02-18-06, 09:19 AM | Can we please get back on the topic? I'm looking for arcane builds. Show me your build for this Warmage/Rainbow servant. What feats? Stats? Races? |
| JohnduBois02-18-06, 09:29 AM | There are two arcane-heavy gnome builds I would look into, as they both fit the flavor and abilities of gnomes very well. One is illusionist building to Shadowcraft Mage from Races of Stone and Fatespinner from Complete Arcane. Both are 5-level straight caster classes, and Fickle Finger of Fate does a lot to help with some of those lucky saves against damage-dealing evocation spells. I'm not really sure what feats/stats would help an illusionist, though. The other (and probably more common) is Bard heading to Sublime Chord from Complete Arcane. This build would be heavy on feats that allow you to blend magic and music, in particular Extra Music, Lyric Spell, and Metamagic Song. |
| Sieylianna02-18-06, 10:36 AM | Can we please get back on the topic? I'm looking for arcane builds. Show me your build for this Warmage/Rainbow servant. What feats? Stats? Races? IMO, warmage looks good at first glance, but loses some of that appeal when you actually design a character. It's even worse until warmages are allowed to access non-PHB spells at 1st and 2nd level (removing that restriction is in the Draft version, so until the LGCS is officially released and that is included, you're operating under the old rules). Yes, you can wear armor, but that just means you need a higher strength and you're already splitting casting between intelligence and charisma, so wisdom is the only dump stat for a war mage. It's even worse in LG's 28 point system. Rainbow Servant is a limited class and I've never seen access. Designing a PC based on gaining access to a limited class is a losing proposition and it's even worse when there will be table to table variation on caster level. My arcane build was wizard 18. I also have a sorcerer who would like to gain access to Dragon Heart mage from Races of the Dragon. I have a barbarian/wizard who is going for eldritch knight, possibly with spellsword or rage mage in the interim. Personally, I like wizard/divine oracle. IME, arcane spell casting prestige classes have a specific area where they are more powerful than a straight wizard. However, a straight wizard has bonus feats and hasn't had to spend skills and feats on sub-optimal selections to qualify for a prestige class, so they're better off in most situations. Ed |
| Mommy was an Orc02-18-06, 11:37 AM | Rainbow Servant is a limited class and I've never seen access. Designing a PC based on gaining access to a limited class is a losing proposition and it's even worse when there will be table to table variation on caster level. My main character, who would benefit from this PrC, has access to it from a now retired regional mod. Wizard 6/Divine Oracle 3/Loremaster 6 - hits multiple save breakpoints, gets you a bonus feat back, bonus to Fort Save usually, and Loremaster gives skill points as well. I think that does better than a Wizard 15 build on multiple counts. Wizard 5/Divine Oracle 3/Loremaster 3/Fatespinner 4 is an interesting variation on it, though you need to wait to be pretty high level to get your feat back if that's what you want. However, as for the OP, the builds you want depend on what you want to do as a caster. There are lots of different ways to go about using feats - do you want to be a crafter, a blaster, a summoner, a utility mage? What's your point of focus? Do you want to specialize or not? Do you want to blow things away with high DC checks or do you prefer to set things up? There aren't a lot of truly wrong choices there, but those are things you want to decide before asking about builds as you'll get a lot better advice. |
| Namarus02-18-06, 12:01 PM | Well to answer the OP questions, one of the builds that I have found effective. Straight Warmage 15, has incredible amounts of nukage, and a massive selection of damage types. What Region do you play in, that will give us ideas on what accesses you have avialable? |
| Paul H02-18-06, 03:21 PM | Hi I'm not a 'Ruleslawyer' as someone put it - just because LG interprets the rules one way, doesn't mean I would accept them in my own (home, non-LG) games. And yes, if LG says it happens, then it happens in their official games. Still believe Warmage/Rainbow Servant is 'Munchkin' class combo, even if you did lose spell levels. The Rainbow Servant is avaiable to PC's, but the access requirement of finding a Coatl is far from certain - don't try it unless you find access to Coatls somehow. But for char build: Human, St 10 De 14 Co 10 In 16 Wi 10 Ch 14 (I know - 'general' spread of stats). Feats: Point Blank Shot, Combat Casting, Shielded Caster (RoS), Extra Edge Other useful Feats (Lvl 9 onwards) Craft Wand, Jack of all Trades, Force of Personality, Goad, Mobile Spellcasting, etc. Jack of All Trades allows use of unskilled Skill Checks, Force of personality uses Cha instead of Wis for Will Saves, Goad ensures target attacks only you - useful for 'pulling' enemies through AoO's, Mobile Spellcasting allows effective 'double' move, casting spells. Shielded Caster prevents AoO when casting spells in threatened areas, so long as you're using a shield you proficient with. (Prereq Combat Casting, 5 ranks Conc.). Definitely a must. Preferred build, same stats: Human Ranger, then only Warmage. Favoured Enemy - Human Feats: Track (Ranger), PBS, Combat Casting; Shielded Caster; Extra Edge; Arcane Disciple; Improved Favoured Enemy - Human; This way I have access to Wands Cure Lt Wnds, do extra dam vs Humans for any spell I make attack roll. (Within 30' as Ranger, plus PBS), don't provoke AoO casting spells, and can use Domain spells, provided I've increased my Wis by some means. (Magic item only - stat points every 4 lvls into Cha). I also gain all those cool 'Sudden' feats. (Only way PC's can get them is class ability). Domain Spells depend on your alignment/God. So NG follower pelor takes Healing, etc. Travel or Celerity Domains also cool. Thanks for reading this mini 'novel' Paul H |
| Paul H02-18-06, 03:31 PM | Hi Ooops, sorry, just noticed your previous post. Onwal. Yes, agree with pure Warmage, (Sudden Widen, hmmmmm....), but Cleric, then Warmage means you can get Arcane Disciple earlier, get those useful spells (Protect vs Evil), etc. Boccob has some good Domains - Magic, Rune (free Scribe Scroll). Also - depending which God you follow, you can get cheaper/better access to healing/raise deads, etc. (New Metaorgs & Deities docs). So Pelor/Pholtus good buys. Just started Clr Llir, Magic/Travel Domains, for this very reason. Cheers Paul H |
| Iswald02-19-06, 01:53 AM | The Rainbow Servant is avaiable to PC's, but the access requirement of finding a Coatl is far from certain - don't try it unless you find access to Coatls somehow. There is a mod that could arguable give access, but you'd want to discuss it with your triad first. But for char build: Human, St 10 De 14 Co 10 In 16 Wi 10 Ch 14 (I know - 'general' spread of stats). Feats: Point Blank Shot, Combat Casting, Shielded Caster (RoS), Extra Edge Shielded casting, requires the use of a shield. I don't have RoS, so I don't recall if it works with light shields, which warmages can use, or heavy shields, which they can't. Regardless, that's more weight that they may or may not be able to carry. There are people who'll say combat casting is worthless. I don't agree with that entirely, but skill focus [concentration] would be a better choice. If you simply max your ranks of concentration, you'll eventually be able to cast defensively without problems. Often, you can just take a 5' step to avoid AoOs. Other useful Feats (Lvl 9 onwards) Craft Wand, Jack of all Trades, Force of Personality, Goad, Mobile Spellcasting, etc. Crafting expensive disposable items doesn't seem like a good plan to me, especially if it duplicates your class abilities. I suppose if you have double wand wielder, reckless wand wielder or wandstrike, it might have some advantage. It's better for a wizard who can craft a wand and then not have to prepare that spell. Even if you take jack of all trades, it won't do much good when the DCs are too high to let you succeed. Force of personality allows your cha bonus instead of wisdom for most, but not all, will saves. Goad??!! Didn't we already go over how poorly warmages are able to defend themselves? Now you want to be the focus of attention for the BBEG? You should also note that it only works if you are standing within their threat range! On their turn! Even if you succeed, they can still cast or shoot at other people. Mobile casting has some use, but I don't think it would make a difference in many cases. You would be better off with improved initiative or metamagic feats. Acrane disciple would let you use wands of spells that you can't cast. |
| Necrochaos02-19-06, 07:16 AM | I would be most interested in battle field control instead of straight damage. I'm in the Furyondy region, Iuz Border States meta region |
| Paul H02-19-06, 03:15 PM | Hi Shielded Caster can be used with any shield you're proficient with. Apart from Shielded Caster, Feats I listed were just alternates - Dodge, Point Blank Shot/Precise Shot, Spell Penetration are my favourites. Craft Wand excellent for spells you got from Arcane Disciple (or 1 lvl Cleric)- Cure Lt Wnds, Protection from Evil, Blur, etc. As already stated - one lvl Cleric Llir has good Domain powers from magic & travel domains, well worth dropping (only) 1 level. Plus useful 1st lvl spells. Cheers Paul H |
| Lomiat02-19-06, 11:09 PM | I would be most interested in battle field control instead of straight damage. I'm in the Furyondy region, Iuz Border States meta region As far as arcane builds go, especially at lower levels when you can't choose a PrC, you're basically looking at allocating your attribute points, skill points, and spell selection. If your build allows you to spare the feats (rather than dedicating some of them to a PrC), then your feats will shape much of what your caster becomes. A battlefield-control caster tends to focus on a few things: 1) Spells that effect multiple targets, allies or opponents; 2) Going early in the initiative [high DEX and Improved Initiative become valuable options; 3) Pumping up saving throws to affect opponents as often as possible. My personal opinion is that arcane casters, and especially the battlefield-control variant, ought to max out the relevant caster stat, INT or CHA. I'd pick INT and go Wizard because the spell progression makes the Wizard 1 spell level better every other level. It's nice for Sorcerors to cast more spells, but my wizard rarely manages to cast all of his spells in an adventure anyway. The spontaneous selection is the sorceror's biggest advantage, not the sheer number of spells, but then they have to do all their preparation as they level, versus the adaptability the wizard has to decide whether a strategy works well or not. Some of the better arcane battlefield control spells include: 1st--Cause Fear, Color Spray, Enlarge Person, Grease, Mage Armor, Protection from Evil, Ray of Enfeeblement, Sleep 2--Bull's Strength, Glitterdust, Invisibility, See Invisibility, Web 3--Dispel Magic, Fly, Halt Undead, Haste, Hold Person, Magic Circle Against Evil, Slow, Summon Monster III 4--Charm Monster, Dimension Door, Evard's Black Tentacles, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, Stoneshape, Stoneskin, Summon Monster IV 5--Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Summon Monster V, Wall of Force I'm sure there are others, but these are the ones that come to mind from having seen them used perfectly throughout many adventures. Looking at the spell selection, I see a number of options available to feat/spell selection. Battlefield control as a summoner: Take Spell Focus (conjuration) and Augment Summoning. Basically, you use spells like Glitterdust and Web to hinder your opponents and summon monsters to populate the map with allies of your choice (flying, pouncing, swarming, etc.). Augment Summoning gives them a bit of a kick. The Spell Focus prerequisite isn't bad when you're going to cast Glitterdust a lot anyway. Summon spells are best used after you can summon multiple monsters. Battlefield control as a transmuter: Buff your allies ahead of time if possible (with Enlarge Person, Bull's Strength, Polymorph, etc.) and then use Grease, Haste and Slow as often as possible to increase your number of actions versus your opponents' number of action. Battlefield control as an illusionist: Use invisibility and illusions as often as possible to change the terms of engagement. Try to draw your opponents into sneak attacking an illusion while you and your friends are invisible. Then you take a surprise round. Requires a cooperative DM. Battlefield control as an enchanter: Use spells to enhance your allies early (Haste, etc.); then try to take out opponents one at a time with Hold and/or Dominate spells. Not really a true battlefield control caster. Battlefield control as an abjurer: Take the feats to put you on your way to Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. You'll use area effect spells, and later, walls, to alter the terrain and battlefield. Rather than working as a transmuter to provide you with sheer numbers of attacks versus your opponents' number of actions, you limit how the battle plays out by limiting where it plays out. This is a subtler form of control, but I've seen it prove immensely powerful. Most of the really cracked-out 16+ level wizards I've seen were Initiates of the Sevenfold Veil. Their immediate action veils are sick. |
| takata02-20-06, 03:15 AM | control battle wizards key job is the other spell caster locate first and stop them 1st or 2nd round then boost allies spell caster can and will create havic on the field if not stop early if no spell caster your choice is haste or slow believe it or not but the spells on the battle feild donn't have to be any higher then 4th level with most combats and if you have craft wand you cover most damage and buff spell and with your high dc slow and fireball (archmage master energy can change this to any energy even sonic at 15th lvl) spell selection is key donnt try to kill, most spells tend to hamper foes wave spells no save fatige or exhustion, mass spell like hold person or sugesstion ( take off armor and polish and sharpen when hit or gets hit), cannon fauter spell in race of destiny shadow guardings 1/per lvl and 1/hr per lvl lots of bodies on feild, this is what my 13wiz/1archmage dose his build is str 6, dex 12, con 12(16), wis 12, int 23(29), cha 8 feats spell pen, g spell pen, spell focus(ench), spell focus(trans), skill focus(spellcraft), craft wand, craft wandrous items +6 int, +4 con, +5vest resis., luckstone, ring evasion, bless book, rod empower lesser, hhh back pack, cloak of energy resistance, wand clw. i have a rat familiar with celestal templet. my saves will +16, ref +12, fort +16 |
| Necrochaos02-26-06, 08:37 AM | Stealing from Mommy was an Orc: Here's a fleshed out Arcane build: Grey Elf Wizard 6/Divine Oracle 3/Loremaster 6 Str 6, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 8, Cha 8 1: Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll, Improved Init, Rat Familiar(+2 Fort) 2: Wizard 2 3: Wizard 3: Craft Wondrous Item 4: Wizard 4: +1 Int 5: Wizard 5: Empower Spell 6: Wizard 6: Skill Focus: Knowledge(Religion) 7: Divine Oracle 1 8: Divine Oracle 2: +1 Int 9: Loremaster 1: +2 Fort Saves, Insightful Reflexes 10: Loremaster 2 11: Loremaster 3: Feat: Spell Focus: Conjuring 12: Divine Oracle 3: Augment Summoning: +1 Int 13: Loremaster 4 14: Loremaster 5: +2 Reflex Saves 15: Loremaster 6: ? If I'm looking towards battlefield control, should I swap out the Empower Spell and Spell Focus Conjuring for something more geared toward controll? Any ideas how to tweak this towards battlefield control? |
| Lomiat02-27-06, 01:10 AM | Stealing from Mommy was an Orc: Here's a fleshed out Arcane build: Grey Elf Wizard 6/Divine Oracle 3/Loremaster 6 Str 6, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 8, Cha 8 1: Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll, Improved Init, Rat Familiar(+2 Fort) 2: Wizard 2 3: Wizard 3: Craft Wondrous Item 4: Wizard 4: +1 Int 5: Wizard 5: Empower Spell 6: Wizard 6: Skill Focus: Knowledge(Religion) 7: Divine Oracle 1 8: Divine Oracle 2: +1 Int 9: Loremaster 1: +2 Fort Saves, Insightful Reflexes 10: Loremaster 2 11: Loremaster 3: Feat: Spell Focus: Conjuring 12: Divine Oracle 3: Augment Summoning: +1 Int 13: Loremaster 4 14: Loremaster 5: +2 Reflex Saves 15: Loremaster 6: ? If I'm looking towards battlefield control, should I swap out the Empower Spell and Spell Focus Conjuring for something more geared toward controll? Any ideas how to tweak this towards battlefield control? Looks good, except I'd switch Knowledge (Religion) to 3rd level, take Craft Wondrous as a 5th level feat, take Spell Focus (Conjuration) at 6th when it's more likely to help you out, and take Quicken spell at 11th instead of Spell Focus, then getting Augment Summoning at 12th. |
| beyowulf02-27-06, 07:35 AM | but Cleric, then Warmage means you can get Arcane Disciple earlier, get those useful spells (Protect vs Evil), etc. Your ideas intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter... ;) Seriously, though, what book is Arcane Disciple in? Does it grant access to Cleric spells for a wizard, or is more of a Mystic Theurge deal where you gain levels as both Wizard and Cleric? Does it give access to other cleric only stuff like domains and turning/rebuking? |
| Iswald02-27-06, 09:19 AM | Seriously, though, what book is Arcane Disciple in? Does it grant access to Cleric spells for a wizard, or is more of a Mystic Theurge deal where you gain levels as both Wizard and Cleric? Does it give access to other cleric only stuff like domains and turning/rebuking? Arcane Disciple is a feat from Complete Divine. It grants access to one domain of your deity. You need a wisdom high enough to cast the spell in order to prepare it. However, you could keep your wisdom low and still use the spells on wands. They're added to your list, so wizards and sorcerors would still have to pick or find them as arcane spells to use them. Warmages automatically have them on their list of spells, but still need a high wisdom to cast the spells. You're only able to prepare or cast each domain spell once/day. |
| Lomiat02-27-06, 10:23 AM | Speaking of Arcane Disciple, it entered conversations this last weekend at a con regarding one of the stranger wizard builds I've ever seen. The player had intended his wizard to go for Mystic Theurge, but decided to go straight wizard instead of dipping into cleric for the Theurge. Thus, at 7th level (nearly 8th), the character was really too late to go back to cleric for Theurge, and the 16 WIS he'd bought was looking kind of useless. However, Arcane Disciple could make that WIS really yummy. We looked at the following build for him: Wiz 10. Some feats and Arcane Disciple (healing domain). Sacred Exorcist - grants turning. At 12th level, he takes Domain Spontaneity, and becomes a straight arcane caster who can spontaneously cast Heal twice a day, or who can prepare Cure Critical Wounds, etc. That's some odd versatility, and, in many ways, it beats the Theurge. |
| Prochytes02-27-06, 10:59 AM | Wiz 10. Some feats and Arcane Disciple (healing domain). Sacred Exorcist - grants turning. At 12th level, he takes Domain Spontaneity, and becomes a straight arcane caster who can spontaneously cast Heal twice a day I do not think this works, I am afraid (although I could well be wrong, as I do not have my books with me). If I remember rightly, Domain Spontaneity specifies that you can swap out DIVINE spells for your domain ones... and this PC has no divine spells, because even his "Domain" ones are considered arcane for the purposes of his casting. He does still get to prepare some healing spells, though. PS I will check the exact wording of "Domain Spontaneity" later.. unless someone with books handy could do it before that? |
| Prochytes02-27-06, 11:24 AM | My own sorcerer (a gentle and sweet-natured woman with a marked aversion to blowing things up) is a Sacred Exorcist, and uses her turn attempts to power Sacred Healing. It makes her very useful as a back-up healer, although this does not work so well in combat. |
| solbergb02-27-06, 01:28 PM | A battlefield-control caster tends to focus on a few things: 1) Spells that effect multiple targets, allies or opponents; 2) Going early in the initiative [high DEX and Improved Initiative become valuable options; 3) Pumping up saving throws to affect opponents as often as possible. Battlefield control as an <XXX>: . You forgot "battlefield control as an evoker". The granddaddy of them all is Wall of Force, and its little brother Resilient Sphere is pretty good too. Gust of wind and wind wall also have their uses. There isn't anything much in the level 1 list, although tactical use of tenser's disc can do a lot to get immobile full attackers or healers to where they can do the most good. You don't need improved init or massive save DC's to be a good battlefield controller, although that is certainly a decent approach. I consider really high init more key for a support caster (ie, haste, bardsong, stuff like that). I note that you seem to lump support/buffs into battlefield control. I consider them separate categories. There is a more reactive style of battlefield control, designed to take away actions, preferably with no chance of failure (or at least multiple ways to succeed). My TK sorcereress often works this way, and it doesn't matter al that much where you end up in the init order, as long as you aren't dropped before you can act. The approach is that you ready an action to cast a spell that will waste the actions of an enemy while doing something more generally useful for the party. Ie, don't just cast wall of force. Ready it, so your tank, archer and blaster types get their offense in, but the counterattack is blocked (and not only does the monster have to go around, but he wasted at least one std action attacking). Cast resilient sphere on your own party members, even your familiar, rather than risk a reflex save wasting your action. Often your best action is to dismiss a spell at precisely the right time. Like letting your evards get in one extra squeeze while the party sets up and delays, then releasing it and watching your friends open up with full attacks now that they can move in. Spells that let your allies move freely through your battlefield control spells also help, such as grease, enlarge or polymorph to let an ally resist your evards tentacles, or fly to go over/around your walls of force. Lest you think you need force effects to do this, the humble Grease and Obscuring Mist are both extraordinarily effective at disrupting charges in the low level, if you time them right. Grease forces a reflex save and an accellerated balance check if you want to keep charging. Obscuring mist before a charge blocks visibility (making a charge impossible, you have to see the target). During a charge, it slows down any creature without blindsense, also disrupting the charge. Now that isn't to say it isn't nice to go first and cast a spell that ends the combat, or severely degrades the ability of the enemy to fight back. High init is nice (but the only place I actually fit it into a build is usually bard builds), and high save DC's are very nice, but it just isn't the only way to do things. |
| Prochytes02-27-06, 02:36 PM | I will check the exact wording of "Domain Spontaneity" later. I checked. The Feat only lets you burn "prepared divine spells", I am afraid. |
| Lomiat02-27-06, 02:47 PM | I checked. The Feat only lets you burn "prepared divine spells", I am afraid. Oh well. There's always the other route, too, which was to have his wizard take Arcane Disciple in Good as well, or Divine Vigor. The False Life, Divine Vigor d8 straight arcane caster is still pretty nice. |
| Necrochaos02-28-06, 06:50 AM | Looks good, except I'd switch Knowledge (Religion) to 3rd level, take Craft Wondrous as a 5th level feat, take Spell Focus (Conjuration) at 6th when it's more likely to help you out, and take Quicken spell at 11th instead of Spell Focus, then getting Augment Summoning at 12th. Wouldn't it be better to take Augmented Summoning earlier to allow stronger creatures to be summoned earlier in the progression? |
| Lomiat02-28-06, 09:24 AM | Wouldn't it be better to take Augmented Summoning earlier to allow stronger creatures to be summoned earlier in the progression? Perhaps, but I never used a single Summon Monster spell until 9th level. Summon spells, apart from Summon Nature's Ally, are somewhat weak until you can summon multiples of a monster likely to hit or use cool special attacks. The other issue is that to actually work the build as a battlefield control caster headed toward Divine Oracle and Loremaster, the character has already dedicated two non-metamagic/item creation feats: Improved Initiative and Skill Focus (knowledge: religion). Then, Insightful Reflexes allows the caster to swap out a mediocre DEX bonus to his REF save for a completely maxed-out INT bonus; this is key at 6th or 9th level because by 8th level the character will have Prescient Sense, which is effectively Evasion. That allows the character one chance to get Spell Focus: Conjuration and no Augment until 12th. |
| Mommy was an Orc02-28-06, 09:44 AM | That particular build is covering a variety of aspects - the major thing it does reasonably well is saving throws, a usual sore point for Wizards. At first, it concentrates on being a blaster, then eventually, it goes into doing a more complex routine of Summoning at higher levels. If you're more familiar with Wizards, then do different feats with the 4 floating feats(Empower Spell, Spell Focus: Conjuration, and Augment Summoning, and Insightful Reflexes) and/or rearrange the feats to taste. I'm also not that fond of the pointiness of the build - I personally like to only give Grey Elves a 19 Int, lower their Dex to 12, up their Con to 14, and then up their Str to 9. The advantage of doing that is they don't have big equipment issues, it ups the value of Insightful Reflexes by a lot(an eventual +9 vs +4 instead of +9 vs +6), and they don't accidentally die when hit by a shadow. Wouldn't it be better to take Augmented Summoning earlier to allow stronger creatures to be summoned earlier in the progression? |
| Paul H02-28-06, 10:57 AM | Hi There is one arcane build that can spontaneously cast healing - Geomancer. Too expensive for my liking - prereqs are 2nd lvl spells in both divine/arcane. So Wizs 3/Clr 3 works. As you gain levels, you choose which (arcane/divine) class spellcaster increases, also gaining 'spell versatility'. This means that if you increase your Wiz levels, at 10th char lvl you are 7th lvl Wiz, cast 4th lvl spells, and can spontaneously trade in any arcane spell for healing spell of 3rd lvl or lower. (Verstility). You also gain BAB & saves as Cleric, & can cast arcane spells up to 3rd lvl (Versatility) in armour - no spell failure. You can even use best of Wis/Int (in this example) for spell saves, either class. There are some other bonuses, but not sure if it's worth dropping the levels. Cheers Paul H |
| Samwise02-28-06, 11:13 AM | My wizard is built with spell focus (conjuration) and augment summoning from 1st level. Although I haven't used him as I'd planned, I've discovered a rather powerful alternative. I took rapid spell at 3rd level. Now my summon monster I critters pop up in the same round, giving wonderful flanking bonuses, especially for the rogue, and managing a useful hit every now and then. I favor celestial badgers, which have a full attack of 2 claws +4 melee (1d2+1) and bite -1 melee (1d3) with the Str boost. And I managed to unleash a pair of celestial porpoises in one adventure that featured a significant body of water. Of course this requires three feats to work at 3rd level, but I've found it quite effective so far. |
| Iswald02-28-06, 11:25 AM | There is one arcane build that can spontaneously cast healing - Geomancer. Whatever happened to bards? Not that they are the best casters, but they do spontaneously cast some healing spells. The problem I see with geomancer is that you can only spontaneously cast spells that you can normally cast. If you focus on arcane spells, that means that you can only use your lower spells for healing. If you focus on cleric spells, you're not really gaining anything and have lost 3 levels on arcane casting to get into the PrC. Balancing the two leaves you at half the caster level you should have for your character level. You are much better off playing as a mystic theurge than a geomancer. You lose some caster levels (which you could get back to some extent with practiced spellcaster), but you have many more spells. Also, you aren't sacrificing your arcane spells to perform healing. Fatespinner is a good PrC for wizards. It's almost like having the luck domain for the party and yourself, if you take four levels. |
| Paul H02-28-06, 11:37 AM | Hi Yep - I prefer Mystic Theurge - my main char (Oskar Thorinson) is Clr 3/Warmage 4, going Theurge next level. Just pointing out that some Arcane casters can spontaneously cast healing. definitely think Geomancer is too expensive in caster levels. Clr Fharlanghn, then pure Warmage allows Arcane Disciple at 3rd level. You can either go for the Blur/Haste with Celerity, or Fly/Dim.Door/Teleport with Travel. The Domain powers are useful, too. (Remember that you still need high enough Wis to cast Domain spells). Whoever thinks of Warmage suddenly casting Haste? (Clr 1/War 8) Hehehehhehehe.......... Cheers Paul H |
| solbergb02-28-06, 06:44 PM | My wizard is built with spell focus (conjuration) and augment summoning from 1st level. Although I haven't used him as I'd planned, I've discovered a rather powerful alternative. I took rapid spell at 3rd level. Now my summon monster I critters pop up in the same round, giving wonderful flanking bonuses, especially for the rogue, and managing a useful hit every now and then. Yeah, rapid spell just makes summoning so much better. It isn't that the monsters do a ton of offense. It is that they are THERE...keeping the distance open, or cutting off retreat, or giving the rogue a full attack the first round instead of later, blocking charge lanes and drawing fire or interfering with enemy movement. They're nearly pure battlefield control...but only if they arrive in the surprise round or round 1, not in the middle of round 2. By round 2, the party is all mixed into the enemies, and they're mostly just flankers...their main purpose of interfering with enemy movements isn't relevant. |
| Necrochaos02-28-06, 07:34 PM | That particular build is covering a variety of aspects - the major thing it does reasonably well is saving throws, a usual sore point for Wizards. At first, it concentrates on being a blaster, then eventually, it goes into doing a more complex routine of Summoning at higher levels. If you're more familiar with Wizards, then do different feats with the 4 floating feats(Empower Spell, Spell Focus: Conjuration, and Augment Summoning, and Insightful Reflexes) and/or rearrange the feats to taste. I'm also not that fond of the pointiness of the build - I personally like to only give Grey Elves a 19 Int, lower their Dex to 12, up their Con to 14, and then up their Str to 9. The advantage of doing that is they don't have big equipment issues, it ups the value of Insightful Reflexes by a lot(an eventual +9 vs +4 instead of +9 vs +6), and they don't accidentally die when hit by a shadow. Ok, building on what Mommy and Lomiat said: Originally Posted by Necrochaos Stealing from Mommy was an Orc: Here's a fleshed out Arcane build: Grey Elf Wizard 6/Divine Oracle 3/Loremaster 6 Str 9 Dex 12, Con 14, Int 19, Wis 8, Cha 8 1: Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll, Improved Init, Rat Familiar(+2 Fort) 2: Wizard 2 3: Wizard 3: Skill Focus: Knowledge(Religion) 4: Wizard 4: +1 Int 5: Wizard 5: Craft wonderous Item 6: Wizard 6: Spell Focus (Conjuration) 7: Divine Oracle 1 8: Divine Oracle 2: +1 Int 9: Loremaster 1: +2 Fort Saves, Insightful Reflexes 10: Loremaster 2 11: Loremaster 3: Feat: Quicken Spell 12: Divine Oracle 3: Augment Summoning: +1 Int 13: Loremaster 4 14: Loremaster 5: +2 Reflex Saves 15: Loremaster 6: ? How does this look? Any other ideas to change or tweak? I've always played blasters. I'd like to use Glitterdust, grease and others to help sway the battle to my side. Any help on this would be awesome as I haven't started this character yet. |
| Mommy was an Orc02-28-06, 08:13 PM | Definitely switch those two feats around. But other than that, should be very playable. 3: Wizard 3: Skill Focus: Knowledge(Religion) 6: Wizard 6: Spell Focus (Conjuration) |
| Necrochaos02-28-06, 08:29 PM | Ok, what about spell choice? At 1st level character, I took as my first level spells: Mage Armor (just in case) Magic Missile (damage, doesn't miss) Cause Fear Expeditios Retreat (faster movement) Enlarge Person Magic Weapon Hypnotism Grease Should I have picked something different? Any ideas? |
| Namarus02-28-06, 09:37 PM | I took the following Magic Missile Enlarge Person Chill Touch Mage Armour Ray Of Enfeeblement Sleep Hands down I've found the following to be really useful, even at higher levels. Ray Of Enfeeblement Magic Missile Enlarge Person |
| solbergb03-01-06, 03:10 PM | Whatever happened to bards? Not that they are the best casters, but they do spontaneously cast some healing spells. . You can actually make a half decent bard healer, since insignia of healing is on the bard list without being bumped a level, and it is arguably the most important healing spell in the 6-11 level range. To make it work though, you probably need lyric song to get enough L3 spell uses. I've got a cohort design along those lines (haste, insignia of healing, inspirational boost and masterwork drum per CV rules for the melee folks, harmonic chorus, inspire spellpower for the spellcasters, extra bardsong and lyric spell to power the spells for a few fights). There is a feat starvation problem though...none of the PHB feats really help a bardic healer, and you need three feats to really make it work (lyric song, only at level 6+, augment healing and extra bardsong to get more than a couple uses a day). If you focused just on healing, without getting diverted into raising caster levels (it would be the cohort of an arcane caster, who can't raise caster level by any means except leadership and 30k ioun stones) then you could wait till 9 to get the extra bardsongs, getting fewer but more powerful healing insignias. Bards below level 7 just use wands of clw, like everybody else :) You've got a gap in the level 3-6 range, might want CMW as a L2 spell to bridge that. |
| Reylance03-01-06, 05:42 PM | Ok, building on what Mommy and Lomiat said: Originally Posted by Necrochaos Stealing from Mommy was an Orc: Here's a fleshed out Arcane build: Grey Elf Wizard 6/Divine Oracle 3/Loremaster 6 Str 9 Dex 12, Con 14, Int 19, Wis 8, Cha 8 1: Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll, Improved Init, Rat Familiar(+2 Fort) 2: Wizard 2 3: Wizard 3: Skill Focus: Knowledge(Religion) 4: Wizard 4: +1 Int 5: Wizard 5: Craft wonderous Item 6: Wizard 6: Spell Focus (Conjuration) 7: Divine Oracle 1 8: Divine Oracle 2: +1 Int 9: Loremaster 1: +2 Fort Saves, Insightful Reflexes 10: Loremaster 2 11: Loremaster 3: Feat: Quicken Spell 12: Divine Oracle 3: Augment Summoning: +1 Int 13: Loremaster 4 14: Loremaster 5: +2 Reflex Saves 15: Loremaster 6: ? How does this look? Any other ideas to change or tweak? I've always played blasters. I'd like to use Glitterdust, grease and others to help sway the battle to my side. Any help on this would be awesome as I haven't started this character yet. Let me point out that you can't take Loremaster with this build. You need 3 item creation or metamagic feats, and you only have two: Scribe Scroll and Craft Wondrous Item. 1st level is often ultimately a good place to take Quicken Spell, even if it's a wasted feat until level 9, since afterwards, you have all the builder books to play with. Although I see your desire for that key +1 to Fortitude and Reflex saves at Wizard 6, the fourth level of Divine Oracle offers something nice: uncanny dodge. When the assassin thinks you're easy pickings, imagine the look on his face when you don't even take sneak attack damage. |
| Mommy was an Orc03-01-06, 07:12 PM | Actually, that was the reason Empower Spell was at 3rd and why I pushed back Spell Focus until after 9th. Let me point out that you can't take Loremaster with this build. You need 3 item creation or metamagic feats, and you only have two: Scribe Scroll and Craft Wondrous Item. 1st level is often ultimately a good place to take Quicken Spell, even if it's a wasted feat until level 9, since afterwards, you have all the builder books to play with. |
| Necrochaos03-01-06, 10:27 PM | Let me point out that you can't take Loremaster with this build. You need 3 item creation or metamagic feats, and you only have two: Scribe Scroll and Craft Wondrous Item. 1st level is often ultimately a good place to take Quicken Spell, even if it's a wasted feat until level 9, since afterwards, you have all the builder books to play with. Although I see your desire for that key +1 to Fortitude and Reflex saves at Wizard 6, the fourth level of Divine Oracle offers something nice: uncanny dodge. When the assassin thinks you're easy pickings, imagine the look on his face when you don't even take sneak attack damage. Can you rework this for me and show me where to put in the Divine Oracle 4th level you are talking about and the feat order? |
| Reylance03-02-06, 11:23 AM | Can you rework this for me and show me where to put in the Divine Oracle 4th level you are talking about and the feat order? One possibility would be to do it as follows: 1: Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll, Skill Focus: Knowledge(Religion), Rat Familiar(+2 Fort) 2: Wizard 2 3: Wizard 3: Empower Spell 4: Wizard 4: +1 Int 5: Wizard 5: Craft Wondrous Item 6: Divine Oracle 1: Oracle Domain, Scry Bonus, Spell Focus (Conjuration) 7: Divine Oracle 2: Prescient Sense, Trap Sense +1 8: Divine Oracle 3: Divination Enhancement, +1 Int 9: Divine Oracle 4: Uncanny Dodge, Insightful Reflexes, +1 Int 10: Loremaster 1: +2 Fort Saves, Insightful Reflexes 11: Loremaster 2: Lore 12: Loremaster 3: Augment Summoning, Feat: Quicken Spell 13: Loremaster 4: Bonus Language 14: Loremaster 5: +2 Reflex Saves 15: Loremaster 6: Greater Lore, (feat) I'm not sure why you'd go for Augment Summoning so late in the game; it's really a feat to get early if you're creating a summoner. |
| Mommy was an Orc03-02-06, 12:39 PM | I'm not sure why you'd go for Augment Summoning so late in the game; it's really a feat to get early if you're creating a summoner. The reason is mainly that if you're a beginning player, summoning is significantly tougher to get a handle on - the point of the build is not to be an overwhelming wizard build, the point is to be a reasonably survivable one. At 3rd level, it is tough to keep track of - at level 12, it shouldn't be too bad because you will have played a wizard for almost certainly a couple of years by that point... |
| Necrochaos03-02-06, 05:50 PM | One possibility would be to do it as follows: 1: Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll, Skill Focus: Knowledge(Religion), Rat Familiar(+2 Fort) 2: Wizard 2 3: Wizard 3: Empower Spell 4: Wizard 4: +1 Int 5: Wizard 5: Craft Wondrous Item 6: Divine Oracle 1: Oracle Domain, Scry Bonus, Spell Focus (Conjuration) 7: Divine Oracle 2: Prescient Sense, Trap Sense +1 8: Divine Oracle 3: Divination Enhancement, +1 Int 9: Divine Oracle 4: Uncanny Dodge, Insightful Reflexes, +1 Int 10: Loremaster 1: +2 Fort Saves, Insightful Reflexes 11: Loremaster 2: Lore 12: Loremaster 3: Augment Summoning, Feat: Quicken Spell 13: Loremaster 4: Bonus Language 14: Loremaster 5: +2 Reflex Saves 15: Loremaster 6: Greater Lore, (feat) I'm not sure why you'd go for Augment Summoning so late in the game; it's really a feat to get early if you're creating a summoner. You have insightful reflexes twice. |
| Paul H03-02-06, 06:43 PM | Hi Someone mentioned 'Healing Insignia'. Where/what is this? I've got all the 'Complete' books, plus the Spell Compendium. Cheers Paul H |
| Iswald03-03-06, 10:46 AM | Healing Insignia is in RD. |
| Paul H03-04-06, 01:14 PM | Hi Aaaargh! Not another book I have to buy? :eek: Cheers Paul H |
| Iswald03-05-06, 01:45 AM | Maybe it'll be in PHB II. :P |
| Paul H03-05-06, 10:08 AM | Hi PHB II !! :eek: Aaaaaaaaghh! yet another book! Cheers Paul H |