LG Bard - What Class for a lvl. dip? [Archive] - Wizards Community

LG Bard - What Class for a lvl. dip? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
El_Shawno
07-31-07, 04:11 PM Hey all,

I'm playing in my first LG campaign and am having a swell time. I've just gotten my Bard to 2nd level and am thinking about a quick level dip at 3rd. Here's what I'm thinking -

1 level of fighter. I firgure a level of fighter would be nice for the extra feat and the bump to my Fortitude save. That way I could take Extra Music AND Improved Initiative, thus giving my some nice buffs to my buffing abilities.

1 level of Marshall. While I would only gain a minor aura, taking one that helps with flanking attacks for example (I forget the name right now) wouldn't be bad. Also, the Skill Focus in Diplomacy would be pretty swell as well.

I'm leaning towards the fighter dip but could anyone make a case for the Marshall?

Thanks!

El Shawno
TetsujinOni
07-31-07, 04:20 PM I'd actually suggest Bard3, not interrupting your song or caster progression.

If you went Marshall, Motivate Dex adds to initiative, and effectively gives the whole party Lesser Improved Initiative...

but I'd lean toward making sure I grabbed SpC spells for my spells known list, and going Bard 3...
bitznarf
07-31-07, 04:21 PM The marshall aura I see most often is the Motiviate Dex one. Gives a nice bonus to initiatve for everyone in the party, much better than Imnproved Initiative is, assuming that you don't need to be stealthy.
Demoyn
07-31-07, 04:41 PM I don't quite understand why people think the initiative bonus is so much better than +2 damage when flanking. Yes, acting first is nice, but the flanking bonus gives a bonus EVERY turn, not just the first (I'd probably take motivate dex second though, or the will save one).
CdrcJsn
07-31-07, 04:48 PM I don't quite understand why people think the initiative bonus is so much better than +2 damage when flanking. Yes, acting first is nice, but the flanking bonus gives a bonus EVERY turn, not just the first (I'd probably take motivate dex second though, or the will save one).

If your casters can go first, they can usually incapacitate half the bad guys from the start, making the fight much, much easier.
CdrcJsn
07-31-07, 04:52 PM Hey all,

I'm playing in my first LG campaign and am having a swell time. I've just gotten my Bard to 2nd level and am thinking about a quick level dip at 3rd. Here's what I'm thinking -

I wouldn't bother multi-classing unless you have some specific goals in mind. The loss in spell ability and the delaying the improved bard songs would hurt in the medium to long term.

Taking a level of fighter just for improved initiative is bad.

Just take improved initiative at 3rd if that's what you want.

You also probably won't need extra music at 3rd level unless you use your bard songs for anything other than inspire courage.
KarmaInferno
07-31-07, 05:30 PM I don't quite understand why people think the initiative bonus is so much better than +2 damage when flanking. Yes, acting first is nice, but the flanking bonus gives a bonus EVERY turn, not just the first (I'd probably take motivate dex second though, or the will save one).

+2 damage a round quickly becomes trivial beyond APL 2.

Acting first can often determine who wins the fight.

As for multiclassing, Sublime Chord is basically Bard Plus, so it's a natural progression and not hard for a Bard to qualify for. You trade three bardic music abilities in exchange for three other music abilities, retain full bardic knowledge progression, and gain greatly accelerated and expanded casting ability.

You won't qualify til 11th level or so, but it's something to think about, as it requires early decisions on whether or not to go that route.

-karma
jstorrie
07-31-07, 08:28 PM Stay in Bard up to 8, then a couple levels of Marshal, then Sublime Chord. That's the cookie-cutter LG bard in my mind.
El_Shawno
07-31-07, 10:58 PM Stay in Bard up to 8, then a couple levels of Marshal, then Sublime Chord. That's the cookie-cutter LG bard in my mind.

Well, everyone's rah rah Sublime Chord...

...huh...

so for my next post...
bitznarf
08-01-07, 01:43 AM I thought cookie cutter bard was Bard 8/Marshal 1/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Virtuoso +4.
JamesMaissen
08-01-07, 02:58 AM Hey all,

I'm playing in my first LG campaign and am having a swell time. I've just gotten my Bard to 2nd level and am thinking about a quick level dip at 3rd.

My first advice is to plan out the character entirely. Don't make decisions one level at a time.. you will get lost and regret choices.

Secondly I would consider the character as a whole and try not to be blinded by a specific ability or name. Ask yourself what you want the character to do and what roles you want to handle for the party.

So with that in mind: What are your character's stats, skills and feats? What do you want your character to be doing?

-James
Timlagor
08-01-07, 08:12 AM My first advice is to plan out the character entirely. Don't make decisions one level at a time.. you will get lost and regret choices.

Secondly I would consider the character as a whole and try not to be blinded by a specific ability or name. Ask yourself what you want the character to do and what roles you want to handle for the party.

So with that in mind: What are your character's stats, skills and feats? What do you want your character to be doing?

-James

QFT
If you are going to 'dip out' though you shoud imo definitely
- not do it before Bard 2 when you can pick up Inspirational Boost (in case anyone is reading this thinking of a character who isn't there already)
- consider what it does to your whole progression (particularly in relation to Bard 8 and whether you are going into SChord to reclaim your spellcasting)

Oh and KarmaInferno is absolutely right about Dex being much the best minor aura in general (specific parties might have other preferences but most LG characters don't have consistent parties). Int is nice too...
mlund
08-01-07, 05:32 PM I thought cookie cutter bard was Bard 8/Marshal 1/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Virtuoso +4.

Unless Virtuoso allows you to continue advancing your Sublime Chord songs so you get Song of Arcane Power, I'd make it a point to get the second level of Sublime Chord.

- Marty Lund
bitznarf
08-01-07, 05:49 PM Could be Marty. I hadn't taken a close look at it. Was mentioned in the thread that was created from the results of this one.
Mattastrophic
08-01-07, 07:14 PM I thought cookie cutter bard was Bard 8/Marshal 1/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Virtuoso +4.

Strange... for such a "cookie-cutter build," I've never actually seen any of these.

-Matt
bitznarf
08-01-07, 07:28 PM Huh. Of the bards over level 10 in Zeif 2 (of the 3) have something close to that and the 3rd is planning on rebuilding into something like that when he hits the high level campaign. I think. And the level 8 bard in Edmonton is going for Sublime Chord I think. Not sure at all about that one though.
CdrcJsn
08-02-07, 01:20 AM Strange... for such a "cookie-cutter build," I've never actually seen any of these.

-Matt

Maybe because there aren't that many bards in the Pale.

The "can't be lawful" might have something to do with it...
jstorrie
08-02-07, 03:37 AM Unless Virtuoso allows you to continue advancing your Sublime Chord songs so you get Song of Arcane Power, I'd make it a point to get the second level of Sublime Chord.

Virtuoso doesn't let you advance your Sublime Chord songs that way, but it does let you advance your SC casting despite taking the first Virtuoso level before the first SC level.

Still, there's no real reason to go to Virtuoso 4; if I was going to dip that much, I'd do Bard 8 / Marshal 1 / Virtuoso 1 / Sublime Chord 2 / Virtuoso 2-3 / Mindbender 1. But I wouldn't actually do that because the low-level Virtuoso abilities kind of suck. I'd rather try to slog through Bard 3 / Paladin 2 / Bard 4-8 / Sublime Chord 2 / Sacred Exorcist 3 or some kind of Warchanter build instead (Bard 8 / Warchanter 7, Bard 4 / Fighter 4 / Warchanter 7, or Bard 4 / Barbarian 1 / Warchanter 10).
Rerednaw
08-06-07, 03:30 PM I've looked at warchanter (CWar), stormsinger (Frostburn), Sublime Chord (CArc) and so on for my bard. All have their niches and flavor.

That being said...

My recommendation is stay bard and make your next character (if you plan on making more) a bardx/whatever. Staying the core class may not always be the most powerful choice (except perhaps for druids) but it does give a better feel for the class.

If you really want to multi-class, than I've seen far more bard9/marshall1/sublime chord 5 builds than any other bard build. Fairly easy to qualify and better in the spell department than a regular bard...just lacking in the upper bard abililties.

Do you have a direction or plan in mind? Retraining only gets more expensive as you go up.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
El_Shawno 07-31-07, 04:11 PM	Hey all, I'm playing in my first LG campaign and am having a swell time. I've just gotten my Bard to 2nd level and am thinking about a quick level dip at 3rd. Here's what I'm thinking - 1 level of fighter. I firgure a level of fighter would be nice for the extra feat and the bump to my Fortitude save. That way I could take Extra Music AND Improved Initiative, thus giving my some nice buffs to my buffing abilities. 1 level of Marshall. While I would only gain a minor aura, taking one that helps with flanking attacks for example (I forget the name right now) wouldn't be bad. Also, the Skill Focus in Diplomacy would be pretty swell as well. I'm leaning towards the fighter dip but could anyone make a case for the Marshall? Thanks! El Shawno
TetsujinOni 07-31-07, 04:20 PM	I'd actually suggest Bard3, not interrupting your song or caster progression. If you went Marshall, Motivate Dex adds to initiative, and effectively gives the whole party Lesser Improved Initiative... but I'd lean toward making sure I grabbed SpC spells for my spells known list, and going Bard 3...
bitznarf 07-31-07, 04:21 PM	The marshall aura I see most often is the Motiviate Dex one. Gives a nice bonus to initiatve for everyone in the party, much better than Imnproved Initiative is, assuming that you don't need to be stealthy.
Demoyn 07-31-07, 04:41 PM	I don't quite understand why people think the initiative bonus is so much better than +2 damage when flanking. Yes, acting first is nice, but the flanking bonus gives a bonus EVERY turn, not just the first (I'd probably take motivate dex second though, or the will save one).
CdrcJsn 07-31-07, 04:48 PM	I don't quite understand why people think the initiative bonus is so much better than +2 damage when flanking. Yes, acting first is nice, but the flanking bonus gives a bonus EVERY turn, not just the first (I'd probably take motivate dex second though, or the will save one). If your casters can go first, they can usually incapacitate half the bad guys from the start, making the fight much, much easier.
CdrcJsn 07-31-07, 04:52 PM	Hey all, I'm playing in my first LG campaign and am having a swell time. I've just gotten my Bard to 2nd level and am thinking about a quick level dip at 3rd. Here's what I'm thinking - I wouldn't bother multi-classing unless you have some specific goals in mind. The loss in spell ability and the delaying the improved bard songs would hurt in the medium to long term. Taking a level of fighter just for improved initiative is bad. Just take improved initiative at 3rd if that's what you want. You also probably won't need extra music at 3rd level unless you use your bard songs for anything other than inspire courage.
KarmaInferno 07-31-07, 05:30 PM	I don't quite understand why people think the initiative bonus is so much better than +2 damage when flanking. Yes, acting first is nice, but the flanking bonus gives a bonus EVERY turn, not just the first (I'd probably take motivate dex second though, or the will save one). +2 damage a round quickly becomes trivial beyond APL 2. Acting first can often determine who wins the fight. As for multiclassing, Sublime Chord is basically Bard Plus, so it's a natural progression and not hard for a Bard to qualify for. You trade three bardic music abilities in exchange for three other music abilities, retain full bardic knowledge progression, and gain greatly accelerated and expanded casting ability. You won't qualify til 11th level or so, but it's something to think about, as it requires early decisions on whether or not to go that route. -karma
jstorrie 07-31-07, 08:28 PM	Stay in Bard up to 8, then a couple levels of Marshal, then Sublime Chord. That's the cookie-cutter LG bard in my mind.
El_Shawno 07-31-07, 10:58 PM	Stay in Bard up to 8, then a couple levels of Marshal, then Sublime Chord. That's the cookie-cutter LG bard in my mind. Well, everyone's rah rah Sublime Chord... ...huh... so for my next post...
bitznarf 08-01-07, 01:43 AM	I thought cookie cutter bard was Bard 8/Marshal 1/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Virtuoso +4.
JamesMaissen 08-01-07, 02:58 AM	Hey all, I'm playing in my first LG campaign and am having a swell time. I've just gotten my Bard to 2nd level and am thinking about a quick level dip at 3rd. My first advice is to plan out the character entirely. Don't make decisions one level at a time.. you will get lost and regret choices. Secondly I would consider the character as a whole and try not to be blinded by a specific ability or name. Ask yourself what you want the character to do and what roles you want to handle for the party. So with that in mind: What are your character's stats, skills and feats? What do you want your character to be doing? -James
Timlagor 08-01-07, 08:12 AM	My first advice is to plan out the character entirely. Don't make decisions one level at a time.. you will get lost and regret choices. Secondly I would consider the character as a whole and try not to be blinded by a specific ability or name. Ask yourself what you want the character to do and what roles you want to handle for the party. So with that in mind: What are your character's stats, skills and feats? What do you want your character to be doing? -James QFT If you are going to 'dip out' though you shoud imo definitely - not do it before Bard 2 when you can pick up Inspirational Boost (in case anyone is reading this thinking of a character who isn't there already) - consider what it does to your whole progression (particularly in relation to Bard 8 and whether you are going into SChord to reclaim your spellcasting) Oh and KarmaInferno is absolutely right about Dex being much the best minor aura in general (specific parties might have other preferences but most LG characters don't have consistent parties). Int is nice too...
mlund 08-01-07, 05:32 PM	I thought cookie cutter bard was Bard 8/Marshal 1/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Virtuoso +4. Unless Virtuoso allows you to continue advancing your Sublime Chord songs so you get Song of Arcane Power, I'd make it a point to get the second level of Sublime Chord. - Marty Lund
bitznarf 08-01-07, 05:49 PM	Could be Marty. I hadn't taken a close look at it. Was mentioned in the thread that was created from the results of this one.
Mattastrophic 08-01-07, 07:14 PM	I thought cookie cutter bard was Bard 8/Marshal 1/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Virtuoso +4. Strange... for such a "cookie-cutter build," I've never actually seen any of these. -Matt
bitznarf 08-01-07, 07:28 PM	Huh. Of the bards over level 10 in Zeif 2 (of the 3) have something close to that and the 3rd is planning on rebuilding into something like that when he hits the high level campaign. I think. And the level 8 bard in Edmonton is going for Sublime Chord I think. Not sure at all about that one though.
CdrcJsn 08-02-07, 01:20 AM	Strange... for such a "cookie-cutter build," I've never actually seen any of these. -Matt Maybe because there aren't that many bards in the Pale. The "can't be lawful" might have something to do with it...
jstorrie 08-02-07, 03:37 AM	Unless Virtuoso allows you to continue advancing your Sublime Chord songs so you get Song of Arcane Power, I'd make it a point to get the second level of Sublime Chord. Virtuoso doesn't let you advance your Sublime Chord songs that way, but it does let you advance your SC casting despite taking the first Virtuoso level before the first SC level. Still, there's no real reason to go to Virtuoso 4; if I was going to dip that much, I'd do Bard 8 / Marshal 1 / Virtuoso 1 / Sublime Chord 2 / Virtuoso 2-3 / Mindbender 1. But I wouldn't actually do that because the low-level Virtuoso abilities kind of suck. I'd rather try to slog through Bard 3 / Paladin 2 / Bard 4-8 / Sublime Chord 2 / Sacred Exorcist 3 or some kind of Warchanter build instead (Bard 8 / Warchanter 7, Bard 4 / Fighter 4 / Warchanter 7, or Bard 4 / Barbarian 1 / Warchanter 10).
Rerednaw 08-06-07, 03:30 PM	I've looked at warchanter (CWar), stormsinger (Frostburn), Sublime Chord (CArc) and so on for my bard. All have their niches and flavor. That being said... My recommendation is stay bard and make your next character (if you plan on making more) a bardx/whatever. Staying the core class may not always be the most powerful choice (except perhaps for druids) but it does give a better feel for the class. If you really want to multi-class, than I've seen far more bard9/marshall1/sublime chord 5 builds than any other bard build. Fairly easy to qualify and better in the spell department than a regular bard...just lacking in the upper bard abililties. Do you have a direction or plan in mind? Retraining only gets more expensive as you go up.