Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tuscaloosasteve 08-17-07, 10:14 PM	Dear circle members, I am writing this to encourage you to remove the limitations of TUs on characters. Since this will be the last year of the current incarnation of LG, and many players will simply not be able to experience mid-high level LG play if they started in year 596/97 why not let people play what they want as much as they want. Heck play Red Hand of Doom and the Adps with the same PC! Normally I would never condone such a concept. I think the TU system added a set of brakes to the game, and promoted many PCs over being a one trick pony. I also love the trade off of adventure at home or abroad... with TU doubling being the crux! But really, this is the end :) I want some of the new players I have brought into LG to get to play all the great mods, heck there are a few I'm not playing because I need to conserve TUs with my only level 9. With some quick fiats about crafting time limits added, we could simply remove the 52 TU cap. I know this also goobers metaorgs, which often provide significant benefits at the cost of TUs, a simple rule about joining metaorgs with a max TU cost of XXX would be sufficent... I know it isn't something that wouldn't have bugs. But I think letting everyone join in at all levels of play before the axe falls in 2008 would be worth the hiccups. my 2cp. -Steve
magebeast 08-17-07, 10:26 PM	I like this idea, actually. Maybe just a doubling of the # of TUs a character is given.
Mattastrophic 08-17-07, 10:47 PM	Seriously, no more TUs for 2008. -Matt
Puggle Halfwine 08-17-07, 11:11 PM	Amen to this. Also, if I may suggest another thing- abandon the region system. The campaign is going away anyway (or rebooting- pretty much the same thing!), so why not let everyone enjoy everything there is out there? Cheers, Dave.
CSHunt68 08-17-07, 11:11 PM	Actually, it sounds like a great idea. Why not? Let people send off their PCs with a bang, and not be limited by artificial brakes on their advancement.
magebeast 08-18-07, 12:53 AM	Amen to this. Also, if I may suggest another thing- abandon the region system. The campaign is going away anyway (or rebooting- pretty much the same thing!), so why not let everyone enjoy everything there is out there? Cheers, Dave. Not sure how I feel about abandoning the region system. I think that's a cool flavor thing.
Puggle Halfwine 08-18-07, 01:05 AM	Fair 'nuff.
Duncan Haldane 08-18-07, 03:26 AM	Not sure how I feel about abandoning the region system. I think that's a cool flavor thing. So remove the limits on who can play in a region so everyone gets to experience the flavour before they go away.
Frumpkis 08-18-07, 04:38 AM	If LG continues on in 4E, I certainly hope they keep the regional system.
darrell_uk 08-18-07, 07:52 AM	I can actually foresee a black-market in Greyhawk adventures after 2008, where people circulate old adventures and ARs between them so that people can continue to play the characters they love. Will this cut into the player base for whatever this "fresh start" living campaign turns out to be? Probably not as much as many would think. It's not as though many of us don't play in multiple campaigns already.
CSHunt68 08-18-07, 09:16 AM	Yes, I think the regional system needs to stay in place - even this year. To do otherwise would cheapen it going forward. (To preempt the Chicken Littles, I'll assume there IS a forward. ;) ...)
Hariman 08-18-07, 11:56 AM	I wouldn't mind seeing "TUs only count for crafting and special things like metaorgs" and being able to adventure without TUs, or a doubling of TUs for current characters. (I could play my Slavery, death and spirit tattoo TU drained Primary Character before next year.) It would really let players pack in the games before LG Transmigrates (Or is that Reincarnates, guess which videogame I'm referencing!) BUT, the region system should stay in place. Oh, who else is glad that the XP system is becoming Level x 1000 so that you no longer need charts to work out the math?
magebeast 08-18-07, 12:07 PM	So remove the limits on who can play in a region so everyone gets to experience the flavour before they go away. An important part of that is regional DMs who understand the region.
MatteBlack 08-18-07, 12:51 PM	Oh, who else is glad that the XP system is becoming Level x 1000 so that you no longer need charts to work out the math? The current math of it is that your current level X 1000 xp is what it takes to get to the next level. All they did is reset your xp to 0 when you level. Its a better way to explain it but, not much has changed. I like the idea of making the campaign less restrained by TUs. The best way to get people to jump over to the new campaigns will be to let them better enjoy the current one. I am hoping there will be an official LG so keeping the regionals system makes sense.
Kelios_Lyonsmane 08-18-07, 04:46 PM	The current math of it is that your current level X 1000 xp is what it takes to get to the next level. All they did is reset your xp to 0 when you level. Its a better way to explain it but, not much has changed. IF you reset the XP a 0 how do you pay the XP cost of items creation ? Dear circle members, I am writing this to encourage you to remove the limitations of TUs on characters. Since this will be the last year of the current incarnation of LG, and many players will simply not be able to experience mid-high level LG play if they started in year 596/97 why not let people play what they want as much as they want. Heck play Red Hand of Doom and the Adps with the same PC! Normally I would never condone such a concept. I think the TU system added a set of brakes to the game, and promoted many PCs over being a one trick pony. I also love the trade off of adventure at home or abroad... with TU doubling being the crux! But really, this is the end :) I want some of the new players I have brought into LG to get to play all the great mods, heck there are a few I'm not playing because I need to conserve TUs with my only level 9. With some quick fiats about crafting time limits added, we could simply remove the 52 TU cap. I know this also goobers metaorgs, which often provide significant benefits at the cost of TUs, a simple rule about joining metaorgs with a max TU cost of XXX would be sufficent... I know it isn't something that wouldn't have bugs. But I think letting everyone join in at all levels of play before the axe falls in 2008 would be worth the hiccups. my 2cp. -Steve I Agree
Hariman 08-18-07, 05:37 PM	IF you reset the XP a 0 how do you pay the XP cost of items creation ? And I quote: "XP is not a resource to be spent." Item creation will still be there, but spending XP will not be part of it. And I think the XP will be 1000 for level 2, 2000 for level 3, 3000 for level 4 and rewards will be based on whether or not the encounter/encounters fought or overcome by other means are above, below or at the party level. As for removing TUs: As I've said before, I too would like to see a doubling of TUs for this year. (104 TUs would be REALLY hard to spend in one year. Barring a 52 TU arrested type dealy.) And next year would likely not need to be doubled, as most people would likely have the time to play next year's 3.5 adventures this year.
LGMoses 08-19-07, 01:46 AM	I'm feeling kinda bummed out right now though I'm sure I'll come out of it. I'm not sure if I'll run these last adventures (the Greyhawk apocalypse) or just ignore them and spend my year wasting my time on something else until LFR comes out so I can play in it. I do look forward to it. I was getting tired of being the only person to run games at my store, for RPGA anyway.
Iswald 08-19-07, 02:30 AM	Well, if TUs are being changed, maybe all of those limited feats, classes, and spells could be opened up too. Maybe even some of the closed feats, like leap attack, could be opened also.
LGMoses 08-19-07, 02:39 AM	Well, if TUs are being changed, maybe all of those limited feats, classes, and spells could be opened up too. Maybe even some of the closed feats, like leap attack, could be opened also. Wizards wants to kill Greyhawk and you're wanting to desecrate the body. :mad:
WotC_Tulach 08-19-07, 03:58 AM	Dear circle members, I am writing this to encourage you to remove the limitations of TUs on characters. Since this will be the last year of the current incarnation of LG, and many players will simply not be able to experience mid-high level LG play if they started in year 596/97 why not let people play what they want as much as they want. Heck play Red Hand of Doom and the Adps with the same PC! Normally I would never condone such a concept. I think the TU system added a set of brakes to the game, and promoted many PCs over being a one trick pony. I also love the trade off of adventure at home or abroad... with TU doubling being the crux! But really, this is the end :) I want some of the new players I have brought into LG to get to play all the great mods, heck there are a few I'm not playing because I need to conserve TUs with my only level 9. With some quick fiats about crafting time limits added, we could simply remove the 52 TU cap. I know this also goobers metaorgs, which often provide significant benefits at the cost of TUs, a simple rule about joining metaorgs with a max TU cost of XXX would be sufficent... I know it isn't something that wouldn't have bugs. But I think letting everyone join in at all levels of play before the axe falls in 2008 would be worth the hiccups. my 2cp. -Steve This is why I love these message boards. Let me share something interesting with you. I saw this post on Saturday, about 3 hours before we had the RPGA meeting. This was an amazingly good idea - so much so that I called an emergency meeting of the powers-that-be here, made a couple of phone calls, and we decided to put it into action. So thanks to one member with a great idea (Steve, the OP) and another with a nice refinement to make it work (Hariman) from this thread, you've just affected potentially thousands of players in a positive way. Keep the good ideas coming guys - we're definitely listening. Oh, and in case you don't quite know the specifics - this post is brought to you by the number 0 and the letters T and U. More to come soon. Thanks again to you folks for taking a tough announcement and finding a way to make things brighter!
Iswald 08-19-07, 07:55 AM	Wizards wants to kill Greyhawk and you're wanting to desecrate the body. :mad: If I said let us play evil PCs, then maybe so. However, there's nothing wrong with wanting to play true heroes for the grand finale, is there?
_metz_ 08-19-07, 08:05 AM	Lets remove the TU restrictions for this year also lads!
Beowulfe 08-19-07, 08:35 AM	Chris, Any chance of removing the region restrictions as well? I can see this as an incentive still to go to out of region cons. Currently, I know the campaign is ending so I don't really want to go to a con and play a couple of mods in a story arc I know I will never finish. This way, everybody could experience authors and other regions flavor. Clint
scon40 08-19-07, 01:09 PM	The Circle will discuss it post-GenCon, but I don't expect that restriction to be lifted.
tuscaloosasteve 08-19-07, 04:56 PM	Thank you for your swift action Chris. When can we expect the change to go into effect? Immediately or just in 2008, many mods will be retiring from the 2006 Arc, it would be great to let my crew here in Tuscaloosa get them in. Or perhaps all current mods could be kept active :) -Steve
control freak 08-19-07, 05:00 PM	is the sky really falling? is it over?
lseelba 08-19-07, 06:23 PM	NO MORE TUs! YAY!
Fakegoatee 08-19-07, 06:53 PM	I'm delighted to hear that we won't have to worry about TU costs for adventures in 598. Thank you! At risk of asking that our inch become a mile, I'd like to argue for reducing the TU cost of 597 CY adventures to 0 immediately (rather than as of Jan. 1, 2008). This would mainly benefit people whose main PCs are out of TUs but who want to use those PCs in 597 adventures. They can go ahead and play adventures (for 0 TUs) that they'd otherwise have to wait until January to play. Who will those players be? I'd guess that they're either new players (who spent their TUs this year on 596 adventures that will retire soon), or else people whose PCs were tied up in TU-intensive activities such as Red Hand of Doom this year. I don't see any advantage in making these players wait to play the adventures they want with their favorite PCs. So, I hope the Circle will consider not making them wait at all.
Apteryx 08-19-07, 06:55 PM	I wouldn't mind seeing "TUs only count for crafting and special things like metaorgs" and being able to adventure without TUs, or a doubling of TUs for current characters. (I could play my Slavery, death and spirit tattoo TU drained Primary Character before next year.) It would really let players pack in the games before LG Transmigrates (Or is that Reincarnates, guess which videogame I'm referencing!) BUT, the region system should stay in place. I think that the TU cost for additional things should stay in place too. There's lots of mods that give you special access if you pay an extra TU cost. There's also often a TU cost for doing something against the law. I believe that those should probably stay in place. Otherwise, you could become a bandit/outlaw in any number of places without real repurcussions. A simple way to work this would be to have the base cost of ALL modules from Jan 1st, 2008 onward cost 0. That way, all meta-orgs, crafting, and extra TU costs would mean something.
soonerpat 08-19-07, 07:42 PM	Hi Chris, This is great news for the group I've just started. May I request that something be posted ASAP to make it official, and also that is be for CY597 and 598? This would give many of the new players I brought into the game in the last 4 months time this year to experience more of the game with their one character, and in modules that they can play at APL 6-8, or maybe even 10 if they play enough. Pat Smith
clannagh 08-19-07, 07:45 PM	Whilst the whole zero TU thing is a bit like parents saying "sorry kids we are getting a divorce and kicking you out but feel free to raid teh liquor cabinet and party for the next month" it may at least allow some people to reach long term goals they have been working towards for years in the limited time left with certian characters.
GeorgeFHarris 08-19-07, 09:05 PM	Keep the good ideas coming guys - we're definitely listening. Oh, and in case you don't quite know the specifics - this post is brought to you by the number 0 and the letters T and U. More to come soon. Thanks again to you folks for taking a tough announcement and finding a way to make things brighter! In addition to the previous sponsors, can we add the sponsors, '2', '0', '0', and '7'? It would be nice to not have to worry about TU restrictions for the rest of the year, also. Thanks, GH
clannagh 08-19-07, 09:45 PM	In addition to the previous sponsors, can we add the sponsors, '2', '0', '0', and '7'? It would be nice to not have to worry about TU restrictions for the rest of the year, also. Thanks, GH That might actually allow people to potentially level15 retire the odd "out of TU this year" mid level character .. like many Bright Sands arc characters for example. Not sure what the chances of that are though.
_metz_ 08-19-07, 10:01 PM	I know I would go to the remaining cons this year to play if the TU restriction was removed for this year as well. My primary (couple of games off 10) only has 2 TUs left, and so I am am disinclined to play a level 3 and travel, but would if It meant getting my last character to 16 and retirement to end the campaign! Chris Tulach, I think it'd be a really good idea, and frankly would be a good marketing decision as well, as disenfranchised LG players will attend existing cons if they get that opportunity. None of us are going to travel to finish off the campaign with level 3 or 4 secondary characters!
Mattastrophic 08-19-07, 10:42 PM	doublepost
Mattastrophic 08-19-07, 10:42 PM	Much agreed. I've already removed all but my primary character from play, since I'll have to focus on one from here on out, and thus no more conventions for the remainder of the year unless TUs were removed. I think we can all agree that imposing limitations for "balance" purposes is a moot point as of yesterday. Also, if these conventions have a terrible year (or two), they won't be around when Living FR comes about. -Matt
just_be_glad_now 08-20-07, 12:19 AM	It seems that Iswald wants to extract everything he can from LG now that it is dying. I dunno about desecration, but OMG, they're Greyhawking Living Greyhawk :eek: Brayden Glad That said, a thanks is in order for Mr. Tulach for his continued efforts on behalf of the campaign in difficult circumstances. Knowing him, I never expected less. LGMoses wrote: Quote: Originally Posted by Iswald "Well, if TUs are being changed, maybe all of those limited feats, classes, and spells could be opened up too. Maybe even some of the closed feats, like leap attack, could be opened also." Wizards wants to kill Greyhawk and you're wanting to desecrate the body.
Iswald 08-20-07, 12:47 AM	It seems that Iswald wants to extract everything he can from LG now that it is dying. I dunno about desecration, but OMG, they're Greyhawking Living Greyhawk :eek: :rofl: May as well have as much fun as possible before LG passes on... :D
Hariman 08-20-07, 01:46 AM	:rofl: May as well have as much fun as possible before LG passes on... :D I was in a home game set in the Forgotten Realms. Even there we Greyhawked the enemies.
Chris_L 08-20-07, 02:27 PM	I know I would go to the remaining cons this year to play if the TU restriction was removed for this year as well. My primary (couple of games off 10) only has 2 TUs left, and so I am am disinclined to play a level 3 and travel, but would if It meant getting my last character to 16 and retirement to end the campaign! Chris Tulach, I think it'd be a really good idea, and frankly would be a good marketing decision as well, as disenfranchised LG players will attend existing cons if they get that opportunity. None of us are going to travel to finish off the campaign with level 3 or 4 secondary characters! I strongly agree; many of my main gaming group are down to mid single figures with their primary PC's at around level 6 or 7, and this is before we all go to GenCon Uk next week. I and several others were going to play our secondaries at GenCon due to this restriction; we'd greatly appreciate having the restriction lifted immediately to allows us to play the primaries. On another note; thanks for listening to us Chris, I'm sure it's not the easiest ride at the moment;)
rickmiddlebrooks 08-20-07, 02:45 PM	Yes! Please lower the TU costs of CY597 mods to zero. Let us play as much LG as possible before the party's over. Rick
KarmaInferno 08-20-07, 03:13 PM	Damn, my butt fell off already. Can I still keep playing? -karma
TWG_Prometheus 08-20-07, 03:17 PM	This is why I love these message boards. Let me share something interesting with you. I saw this post on Saturday, about 3 hours before we had the RPGA meeting. This was an amazingly good idea - so much so that I called an emergency meeting of the powers-that-be here, made a couple of phone calls, and we decided to put it into action. So thanks to one member with a great idea (Steve, the OP) and another with a nice refinement to make it work (Hariman) from this thread, you've just affected potentially thousands of players in a positive way. Keep the good ideas coming guys - we're definitely listening. Oh, and in case you don't quite know the specifics - this post is brought to you by the number 0 and the letters T and U. More to come soon. Thanks again to you folks for taking a tough announcement and finding a way to make things brighter! Thank you for the information. I appreciate the need to avoid posting specifics until the change can be made official, but please let us know as soon as you can. Most specifically, whether our TU-drained characters can continue play this year or whether we'll need to wait until 2008 to play them again is of most interest to me. That information would affect play decisions I need to make in terms of days, not months. I have a character that's at -6 TUs due to Red Hand of Doom that would love to play some year 6 mods, but if that can't be done, I'm still glad to hear that their 2008 schedule might see looser restrictions. Note: I'm also a fan of the TU system under most circumstances.
solbergb 08-20-07, 05:29 PM	Yay for no TU's in 2008. Boo for suggestions to gut the regional system. I don't think local GM's could assimilate flavor of foreign regions reliably. Support for lifting TU's in 2007. The adaptables have really hit TU's hard and it is especially difficult to make tables in the RHOD level ranges these days.
Redfist 08-20-07, 05:51 PM	I agree fully. Lifting TU restrictions allows us to play LG to it's fullest while it lasts. Changing the regional system at all vastly lessens exactly that which we are trying to preserve. Suggestions to "just open up access to everything" essentially un-makes LG. It removes what has made LG special. I'd support allowing players to play more LG (no TUs). I wouldn't support anything which vastly changes the nature of LG (voiding the regional system or access system). --Gordon
Britt 08-20-07, 06:23 PM	This has already been discussed, based on suggestions here and other places. We will implement something that gives increased play opportunities, though I can't really say what yet. Just letting you know that it's been brought to our attention and you don't really need to show support for it or do petitions or anything like that :) If you think it's a bad idea for some reason, let us know well-reasoned thoughts and we'll take it under consideration.
Arassuil 08-20-07, 08:19 PM	Hey Britt, With LG coming to a close now, I have a suggestion with regards to Reincarnate. Don't suppose it can be slightly re-written to allow all results into the campaign? I know, it's probably a longshot, but I could have some serious fun playing a Gnoll in LG. :)
Wolfstalker 08-20-07, 09:13 PM	Hi Chris, This is great news for the group I've just started. May I request that something be posted ASAP to make it official, and also that is be for CY597 and 598? This would give many of the new players I brought into the game in the last 4 months time this year to experience more of the game with their one character, and in modules that they can play at APL 6-8, or maybe even 10 if they play enough. Pat Smith I agree. I started playing this year, and I would like to have a heavy hitter for the end of the campaign. :invasion:
Wolfstalker 08-20-07, 09:17 PM	The Circle will discuss it post-GenCon, but I don't expect that restriction to be lifted. Are you referring to the TUs or the regions? :confused:
soonerpat 08-20-07, 10:22 PM	We will implement something that gives increased play opportunities, though I can't really say what yet. Hi Britt, Thanks for letting us know somethings under consideration. I just want to chime back in a couple of things: - Many of us are working under a tight time schedule due to seasonal openings and upcoming cons... While recognizing how hard y'all are working, a quick decision is greatly appreciated. - Please please do something that will add TU's (or eliminate any TU restrictions) so that those of us who played out our prime characters, or have almost played them out can get them back into play this year for some of the expiring year 6 mods. As several have pointed out, this greatly increases the likelihood of continued con support and involvement throughout this last year. pat smith
LCJJohnson 08-21-07, 01:44 AM	I'd like to support the idea of giving all characters an additional 52 TU for the remainder of this year (for a total of 104). I think that would balance things nicely and augment play opportunities. The other random thought I just had is to open regionals within their metaregion only. That way the system doesn't get totally scrapped, the DMs (if they have been running their metaregionals) have some familiarity with the regions, and there are more play opportunities for the players. That concludes my brainstorming for the moment.:plotting:
clannagh 08-21-07, 02:52 AM	The other random thought I just had is to open regionals within their metaregion only. That way the system doesn't get totally scrapped, the DMs (if they have been running their metaregionals) have some familiarity with the regions, and there are more play opportunities for the players. That concludes my brainstorming for the moment.:plotting: The alternative is to open up the Fiesta system so all conferences (but not gamesdays or home games) get access to any regionals approved for fiesta release by the triad that owns them.
KarmaInferno 08-21-07, 10:53 AM	Alternately, allow one Open Fiesta slot to each convention, with the usual stipulation that the DM of each table must be from the region of the adventure being run. Traveling folks coud secure permission from their triads to run the regional adventures at conventions abroad. -karma