Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TWG_Prometheus 03-06-06, 09:39 AM	I'm considering making a new character for Living Greyhawk, and was running over a number of issues in my head about selecting a Scout. One idea I've gone back and forth on concerns statistic allocation. With a wood elf, I can reach either 10 Strength and 20 Dexterity or 16 Strength and 18 Dexterity for my main damage stats. The 16 STR/18 DEX route seems more efficient, allowing my Scout to use compound bows with Strength bonuses to push the damage a little bit higher, but that seems to be a better strategy when you are shooting multiple arrows a round. Instead, a Scout would normally be expected to be Skirmishing and getting their damage from one big shot. In that situation, the 10 STR/20 DEX route would seem superior for +1 to hit and AC. Also, although the thought of stat dumping makes my spine crawl, the above schedules don't leave points for much else, and in either scenario, I was considering going with 10 CON, 12 INT, 10 WIS, 8 CHA in order to squeeze out a few more skill points per level, since I really doubt that the default number of skills per level will be sufficient for the sneaking/spotting/survival/tumble/ect skill lines I think I'll need to follow. Also, are scouts seen very regularly at most tables? Any other thoughts?
Iswald 03-06-06, 10:04 AM	After your con penalty for being an elf, you want to have at least a 12 con. For an archer, you will probably want to have a good strength to do more damage with your shots. Depending upon your skirmish damage may not be a good plan since there are many opponents who will be unaffected by it.
Sieylianna 03-06-06, 12:23 PM	Also, although the thought of stat dumping makes my spine crawl, the above schedules don't leave points for much else, and in either scenario, I was considering going with 10 CON, 12 INT, 10 WIS, 8 CHA in order to squeeze out a few more skill points per level, since I really doubt that the default number of skills per level will be sufficient for the sneaking/spotting/survival/tumble/ect skill lines I think I'll need to follow. Also, are scouts seen very regularly at most tables? Any other thoughts? I haven't seen many scouts. IMO, rogue is a better class than scout, especially if the other party members will help to set up flanks. CON is important, so you really should have a 14 before racial adjustments. Is there a reason you to go scout instead of ranger? A big advantage of bows is multiple attacks as early as 1st level. You're losing attacks to get your skirmish damage. As a scout, you won't be able to take many shot until 9th level. That's a long time to go with one attack. My 6th level ranger gets 3 attacks per round, I think that's going to make up for your skirmish dice in the long run. Ed
Lomiat 03-06-06, 01:32 PM	Personally, my favorite use of Scout is to combine with Rogue to head toward Shadowdancer. After Shadowdancer, a character with access could take Nightsong Enforcer or any number of PRCs. The idea is to start with Scout for the extra hit points, get two levels, and then go Rogue for 2 levels. You hit 4 Scout (for the bonus feat) and 3 Rogue before Shadowdancer. The build works really well with a reach-weapon fighting style. Scout gives the free Dodge tree feat(s), and Shadowdancer already requires both Dodge and Mobility, so Spring Attack is a natural progression. I've considered a Scout archer before, but the skirmish dice don't make up for the penalties you suffer to BAB. Rogue archers are better than Scout archers, unless you intend to multi-class Scout and Ranger and head toward Highland Stalker.
TWG_Prometheus 03-06-06, 03:28 PM	I haven't seen many scouts. IMO, rogue is a better class than scout, especially if the other party members will help to set up flanks. CON is important, so you really should have a 14 before racial adjustments. Is there a reason you to go scout instead of ranger? A big advantage of bows is multiple attacks as early as 1st level. You're losing attacks to get your skirmish damage. As a scout, you won't be able to take many shot until 9th level. That's a long time to go with one attack. My 6th level ranger gets 3 attacks per round, I think that's going to make up for your skirmish dice in the long run. Ed Well, CON came up twice in two posts. Guess I need to think about that more. With Scout providing Battle Fortitude to help with the Fortitude Saves and no need for Concentration the only real need I can see for more CON is the extra hp. While this is obviously nothing to sniff at, are 16 (before retirement) hp at level 16 going to make that huge of a difference? (99 hp versus 83 hp before any equipment) I'd be loathe to give up Wisdom for it, since it'd be even more stat dumping and also since Will saves are going to be one of my biggest concerns anyway. With Dexterity as the prime stat, Intelligence being critical to finish out the skill list, and Charisma already savaged, I could pull the Strength in the 16 STR/18 DEX build down to 14 for it, but that's sacrificing damage. Skirmish is going to be a focus ability in almost any battle I find myself, giving AC bonuses even against creatures immune to Skirmish bonus damage and generally helping to stay away from enemies. Is CON really a top priority? As far as the choice of whether to play a Rogue or Ranger over the Scout, I find it ironic that both were mentioned as better alternatives in the same post. (No offense intended) What that makes even more clear to me is that the Scout is a solid blend of the two classes. Without going into lengthy comparisons, however, what neither class can match the Scout at is scouting. The Scout does give up the advantage overall to both alternative classes in the damage category, but it is VERY good for doing what it does well. That, and I purely want to try it. (Also, the ability to do Skirmish bonus damage without complicated flanking setups as well as the fact that all that damage comes in one burst rather than three smaller attacks is invaluable at times, so the Scout should have its shining moments in the damage bracket, too.) As far as whether to go with 20 DEX or 18 DEX, I'm currently leaning more toward the 18 DEX, (the 20 version does squander a lot of points) but not necessarily because I view it as a solution to Skirmish-immune creatures. While watching other people play Rogues, the best solution I found for Undead and Constructs to a lesser degree was Bane weapons. Adding 3 more points of damage versus those opponents (especially ones with damage reduction of any amount) just wasn't enough of an answer.
Sieylianna 03-06-06, 05:24 PM	Skirmish is going to be a focus ability in almost any battle I find myself, giving AC bonuses even against creatures immune to Skirmish bonus damage and generally helping to stay away from enemies. Is CON really a top priority? As far as the choice of whether to play a Rogue or Ranger over the Scout, I find it ironic that both were mentioned as better alternatives in the same post. (No offense intended) What that makes even more clear to me is that the Scout is a solid blend of the two classes. Without going into lengthy comparisons, however, what neither class can match the Scout at is scouting. The Scout does give up the advantage overall to both alternative classes in the damage category, but it is VERY good for doing what it does well. That, and I purely want to try it. (Also, the ability to do Skirmish bonus damage without complicated flanking setups as well as the fact that all that damage comes in one burst rather than three smaller attacks is invaluable at times, so the Scout should have its shining moments in the damage bracket, too.) As far as whether to go with 20 DEX or 18 DEX, I'm currently leaning more toward the 18 DEX, (the 20 version does squander a lot of points) but not necessarily because I view it as a solution to Skirmish-immune creatures. While watching other people play Rogues, the best solution I found for Undead and Constructs to a lesser degree was Bane weapons. Adding 3 more points of damage versus those opponents (especially ones with damage reduction of any amount) just wasn't enough of an answer. How much experience do you have with Living Greyhawk? My experience has been that conditions are generally too cramped to reliably move 10 feet and stay within 30 feet of the opponent. That may make you vulnerable to being charged. My grey elf wizard gets 4 hit points per level (before equipment + spells). Your scout gets 5 hit points per level. There are going to be times you have to go into melee, especially if you have a high strength. You're not going to survive to level 16. My archer is (human ranger 6) STR 14, Dex 17, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 8. He shoots three times per round and has manyshot if he needs to move more than 5 feet. Within 30 feet, he's +9/+9/+4 for 1d8+4+1d6 (frost). Your scout 6 (assume 18 Dex, 16 STR, +1 frost bow) shoots once per round at +10 for 1d8+5+1d6+2d6 skirmish (if applicable). Ed
garyjohnson 03-06-06, 06:34 PM	are scouts seen very regularly at most tables? Any other thoughts? Hi, Prometheus. My extended home group (about a dozen people) has two scouts - one is an archer, the other (my character) is a two-weapon scout/swashbuckler/dervish build that's one scenario away from getting her first level of dervish. Other than our two characters, I haven't seen any other scout characters at the monthly gamesdays in Brisbane. You've identified the big design question facing anyone who wants to play a scout into high-level play - what will the character do that makes a move-and-attack better than a full attack sequence? In my opinion, an archer build that incorporates scout class levels should work towards prestige classes that have one-shot-per-round special abilities, like (IIRC) the Order of the Bow Initiate. That way, the fact that you're taking only one shot a round isn't as big a trade-off, since you'd be limiting yourself to one shot a round anyway to get the prestige class benefit. For what it's worth, the two of us both designed our characters more to support our chosen characterisations than to have power builds. I anticipate that a rogue/swashbuckler/dervish build would probably be as or more effective at doing damage than my scout/swashbuckler/dervish build, as long as I have another character to "pin" the enemy in place and use as a flanker - but for me, that's not the point. Hope this provides some insights/ideas for you, Gary Johnson
TWG_Prometheus 03-06-06, 07:27 PM	Thanks Gary. I think it's obvious to me now that the Scout class isn't a terribly popular Living Greyhawk class due to a moderately lower damage curve. The higher speeds, improved skill lists, and other perks of the class are continuing to attract me though. In a post above, Sieylianna mentioned that fighting areas in Living Greyhawk were often too constricted for effective Skirmishing. Has this proven to be the case for the Scouts you mentioned above? I haven't yet gone through very many Living Greyhawk campaigns and haven't seen much for myself. In those situations where there wasn't enough room, could the encounter have been moved elsewhere to provide a better fighting environment? Given the advice here, I'm moving more toward a build with 14 Str, 18 Dex, 12 Con, 12 Int, 10 Wis, 8 Cha, or I could possibly borrow two points from Int to bolster the Strength back up to 16. I still don't see the argument for a 10 Con Scout having no chance of making it to level 16, given that their hp would be equal with a 12 Con Rogue who would see even more melee than a Scout would, but playing it safe with a 12 Con Scout might be a better idea. If anyone wishes to make more comments, they're welcome. Please observe that I've already admitted in two seperate posts that my damage curve will be somewhat lower in most situations than a Rogue's or Ranger's though. I don't need further proof of that. Questions directed more specifically at Gary, as it seems he's played a Scout extensively: 1. How does flanking interoperate with readying an action to disrupt spellcasting? For instance, if my Scout moved 10 feet then readied an action to shoot a spellcaster, would any resulting fire still have the Skirmishing bonus? 2. Are there any Living Greyhawk-legal methods of moving 10 feet and still making a full ranged attack? Would being mounted change this at all? (Scratch the mounted part. I just read an errata that disallows that.) 3. Would you recommend going for both Spring Attack and Shot on the Run to ensure that any combat mode I use (melee or ranged) could involve a Skirmishing attack and still leave me able to shift to a new position?
garyjohnson 03-06-06, 08:22 PM	Thanks Gary. I think it's obvious to me now that the Scout class isn't a terribly popular Living Greyhawk class due to a moderately lower damage curve. The higher speeds, improved skill lists, and other perks of the class are continuing to attract me though. <nods> I think scouts have some good conditional benefits. That is, things that are good to have when they come up, but can't be triggered by the character and don't turn up all the time, such as their 6th level class ability to move at full speed in difficult terrain. In a post above, Sieylianna mentioned that fighting areas in Living Greyhawk were often too constricted for effective Skirmishing. Has this proven to be the case for the Scouts you mentioned above? I haven't yet gone through very many Living Greyhawk campaigns and haven't seen much for myself. In those situations where there wasn't enough room, could the encounter have been moved elsewhere to provide a better fighting environment? IME, generally there's enough space and generally there's a tank or roadblock character to pin the enemy away from you. There are exceptions (5 ft. tunnels come to mind), and there's probably regional/metaregional variation, but most of the time you're okay. That said, keep in mind that I mostly play home games and regular gamesdays, not conventions, which means my play experience may be coloured by having a higher-than-usual level of teamwork and party synergies. For example, most of the local tank and roadblock players know that my character will move 10 ft. before she attacks, so they know to have their characters do their full attack from the current flank, then move 5 ft. to a square that lets me move 10 ft. for my next attack and flank. If you mostly play at conventions, you may not get the same level of awareness and cooperation from the other players. Questions directed more specifically at Gary, as it seems he's played a Scout extensively: 1. How does flanking interoperate with readying an action to disrupt spellcasting? For instance, if my Scout moved 10 feet then readied an action to shoot a spellcaster, would any resulting fire still have the Skirmishing bonus? I don't have my books with me so I can't provide a rules citation, but my understanding is that you keep your skirmish bonuses until your next action, so if you ready or take an AoO, you get the bonus damage. 2. Are there any Living Greyhawk-legal methods of moving 10 feet and still making a full ranged attack? Not as far as I know, but I went for a melee scout, not an archer scout. Manyshot (which requires a standard action) may be a reasonable substitute at least some of the time. 3. Would you recommend going for both Spring Attack and Shot on the Run to ensure that any combat mode I use (melee or ranged) could involve a Skirmishing attack and still leave me able to shift to a new position? Well, that's fairly feat-intensive: 3 prerequisites (Dodge, Mobility, Point Blank Shot) plus these 2 feats. For an archer build, I'd say ignore Spring Attack and consider Shot on the Run - but really, you'll probably benefit more from Manyshot, and that requires Rapid Shot, so I'd say ignore Dodge and Mobility in favour of Precise Shot and Rapid Shot. Hope this helps, Gary Johnson
boolean 03-06-06, 10:54 PM	In my opinion, an archer build that incorporates scout class levels should work towards prestige classes that have one-shot-per-round special abilities, like (IIRC) the Order of the Bow Initiate. That way, the fact that you're taking only one shot a round isn't as big a trade-off, since you'd be limiting yourself to one shot a round anyway to get the prestige class benefit. I'll disagree slightly, and say that OotBI isn't really worth taking. You cannot use the Precise Strike ability and the Manyshot feat at the same time, and the Manyshot option is usually superior (allows flaming/frost etc. damage multiple times, applies to targets immune to sneak attack).
garyjohnson 03-06-06, 11:19 PM	I'll disagree slightly, and say that OotBI isn't really worth taking. You cannot use the Precise Strike ability and the Manyshot feat at the same time, and the Manyshot option is usually superior (allows flaming/frost etc. damage multiple times, applies to targets immune to sneak attack). That makes sense: I don't remember exactly what the OotBI does (I keep thinking it's +1d8 damage if you use a standard action to make an attack on a target within 30 ft.), but I'll look it up when I'm at home tonight. I think the main reason I was thinking of "one attack" abilities was that I find people firing one arrow at a time genre-appropriate, while every time I think of characters routinely using Manyshot as their preferred attack option I mentally visualise the poster for "Robin Hood: Men In Tights" and my suspension of disbelief goes for a short walk. :) Cheers, Gary Johnson
crimsonsky 03-07-06, 03:28 PM	Never really considered what to do with an archer-scout. I always assumed ranger was better for that. Ever consider a melee-scout/dervish combination? An archer-scout would be more viable IMO if it were somehow possible to get access to Greater Manyshot. But since they decided to stick that feat in the Expanded Psionics Handbook for some reason, you're pretty much out of luck.
solbergb 03-07-06, 05:46 PM	Scout provides trapfinding and movement oriented bonus feats, and more skill points than ranger does. It's more of a "scout" than a ranger, less powerful as a combatant. Regarding constricted space - this seems to vary by region a lot. As an example, my archer is only very rarely threatened in melee, and most encounters start with some "whitespace" between the party and the bad guys when he is present. This is due to the fact that he has sharp senses, that the GM's around here actually use the encounter distance rules and the fact that my region features a lot of adventures that aren't underground, indoors or on boats (city streets and wilderness encounters tend to mean you have room to move, and the party doesn't have terrain blocking maneuver room). I've heard archers from other regions claim that they're in melee upwards of 80% of the time. One guy said "only a handful" of encounters in 100ish AR's. I find that hard to understand (even my monk isn't in melee so often that the non-melee encounters were only countable on one hand, and he WANTS to be in melee), but I can't say that they aren't being truthful to their experiences. Now "being able to move and also within 30'" is another story, but yeesh, you only have to move 10', and tumble is on the class list, so how hard can it be? The problem with scout isn't usually getting the skirmish damage, it is that the combination of a rogue-like class setup and attribute dependencies and the lack of offensive feats other than skirmish built into the class and the slow skirmish progression means that a single hit plus skirmish is rarely enough to be more than a third tier damage dealer for the party. You can get it to second tier with dedication and work. A handful of builds get up to first tier at some levels (a scout/druid/pounce build, or a wildrunner build once it gets pounce, or some dervish builds or a shock-trooper/barbarian type build can all do pretty well, because the scout skirmish dice synergizes with what those builds already do). Such builds though tend to dilute the scout levels a lot, add highland stalker levels and multiclass/prc levels, which means you move and do damage, but are no longer very good at skills and trapfinding. Rogues have many of the same issues, and have their own routes to doing decent damage at the cost of rogue abilities, but the rogue has to pay less to be a first tier contributor than a scout does, and is a second tier contributor right out of the box.
Nerax 03-07-06, 11:51 PM	Hey Prometheus, I play a multi-class Scout 3/Ranger 3/Wildrunner 2 (high elf) character. My stats(with stat boost to dex) are 10 str, 18 dex, 12 con, 16 int, 12 wis, 12 cha. I went with the weapon finese, two-weapon fighting (Ranger) and the dodge tree. My, soon to be, next level will be Scout at which time I am picking up Spring Attack and more than likely Expedious Dodge. My base movement is 50. :D With that being said I am not a high damage character, but I am a consistent, contributing character through out a whole mod. With my high skill points I double as the party Rogue (search, disable device, open lock, gather info) Knw. Dungeon., Knw. Nature and Tracker. My hight spot and listen lets me warn the party of up and coming doom or atleast act in the suprise round. With my Wildrunner Primal Scream, I can boost my dex up to 22 and this will give me 4 attacks at +13, +13, +8 and +10 (bite) or one attack at +15 with skirmish dmg. When fighting, I flank with the tanks to the best of my ability, so the above attack scores go up by two. I have a fairly good AC that keeps me out of trouble but again since I am not the heavy hitter I am not normally the traget. My +15 (18) to tumble helps get me there and the 50 move lets me tumble 25 feet! Because of my enhanced movement I have a +15 jump which, in the last mod I played, allowed me to jump up and climb over a wall of force (much to the wizards dismay :D ) I am also the back up party archer if it is really big and ugly. My Ranger levels allow me to use the wooden cleric and with my 50 move I can get to downed party members and stablized before the cleric(if we have one) can get there. I realize that some of this is because of other classes/PrC but alot has to do with starting as a Scout. This was my first LG character so some of the things I realize now I could have done different. Looking at what a level 8/9 Scout has compaired to what I have...?...I think it is fairly compairable. To quote for the Rock "Know your Role!" (in the party that is ;) ) To answer your questions: 1. Yes 2. At level 6 wildrunner gets pounce 3. Both are great for Scouts but it will take you a while to get them all. Hope this helps! p.s. There are also two other Scouts being played in the area but they are secondary/lower level characters so don't see much action.
paigeoliver 03-07-06, 11:57 PM	Put a bunch of ranks in jump. Jump straight up 5 feet, then come down 5 feet. You have your 10' of movement right there with no need to leave your square.
Sieylianna 03-08-06, 07:35 AM	Put a bunch of ranks in jump. Jump straight up 5 feet, then come down 5 feet. You have your 10' of movement right there with no need to leave your square. You're either joking or haven't read the errata. You must end the round at least 10 feet away from where you started to get skirmish damage. Ed
paigeoliver 03-08-06, 08:28 AM	You're either joking or haven't read the errata. You must end the round at least 10 feet away from where you started to get skirmish damage. Ed Haven't read the erratta and don't have a scout. But jumping up and down in one spot was the first thing that came to mind when I read about the skirmish damage.
mowaca 03-12-06, 07:18 PM	I was curious about your stats - at 8th level you probably have some items that improve some of your stats, but without that knowledge I don't see how you could have come up with that set of attributes with a 28 point buy with a High Elf. Ignoring the racial modifiers & stat boosts, you started with 10 str (2) 14 dex (6) 14 con (6) 16 int (10) 12wis (4) 12 cha (4) for a total of 32? Hey Prometheus, I play a multi-class Scout 3/Ranger 3/Wildrunner 2 (high elf) character. My stats(with stat boost to dex) are 10 str, 18 dex, 12 con, 16 int, 12 wis, 12 cha. I went with the weapon finese, two-weapon fighting (Ranger) and the dodge tree. My, soon to be, next level will be Scout at which time I am picking up Spring Attack and more than likely Expedious Dodge. My base movement is 50. :D
kenobi65 03-12-06, 07:45 PM	Put a bunch of ranks in jump. Jump straight up 5 feet, then come down 5 feet. You have your 10' of movement right there with no need to leave your square. Even if the errata on Skirmish didn't make this an ineffective strategy, you'd need a lot of ranks in Jump. A 5' standing high jump is a DC40 Jump check.
Nerax 03-12-06, 11:49 PM	I was curious about your stats - at 8th level you probably have some items that improve some of your stats, but without that knowledge I don't see how you could have come up with that set of attributes with a 28 point buy with a High Elf. Ignoring the racial modifiers & stat boosts, you started with 10 str (2) 14 dex (6) 14 con (6) 16 int (10) 12wis (4) 12 cha (4) for a total of 32? I actually started with a 14 int. Played Shedding Scales (AR#7), meditated with the rock and had a judge tell me to roll a die 6 to find out what score I got a bump to...4...Int...ok...failed save...rolled again...5...lost one to wis...ouch...got to level four and put my stat into int for a 16. When I reached level 8 I dropped it into wis for a 12, again. I was wondering if anyone would pick that up. ;) Now that I have ran the mod, I see that my DM ran it wrong and my stat boost should have gone to dex and the stat drop to my str, but hey it is in the past and I don't mind.... :cool:
ranagrande 03-13-06, 07:16 AM	I too have been contemplating making a new scout, but I'm incapable of making "normal" characters, so I've been considering a caster. If I begin as a Scout and then take Sorceror or Warmage at level 2, I could just move 10 feet every round and cast Magic Missile to do an automatic 1d4+1d6+1 damage to anything with a discernable anatomy, right? Would this work, or am I missing something?
Sieylianna 03-13-06, 07:23 AM	I too have been contemplating making a new scout, but I'm incapable of making "normal" characters, so I've been considering a caster. If I begin as a Scout and then take Sorceror or Warmage at level 2, I could just move 10 feet every round and cast Magic Missile to do an automatic 1d4+1d6+1 damage to anything with a discernable anatomy, right? Would this work, or am I missing something? You only get your skirmish damage if you roll to hit. Ed
Paldasan 03-18-06, 03:53 PM	Yeah, sorry about the late post. Alternative for Scout, Bar3/Scout3/Rog3/??? high str, high speed. take imp init. Hit them hard and early, as Gary mentioned with party tanks who are willing to make sure you get a flank you will get a nice +4d6, throw in a rage and a reach weapon and away you go.
Lupo 03-18-06, 05:14 PM	I too have been contemplating making a new scout, but I'm incapable of making "normal" characters, so I've been considering a caster. If I begin as a Scout and then take Sorceror or Warmage at level 2, I could just move 10 feet every round and cast Magic Missile to do an automatic 1d4+1d6+1 damage to anything with a discernable anatomy, right? Would this work, or am I missing something? it would work with all the orb spells and the like, but giving up a spellcaster level/progression for an additional 1d6 that works with some of your spells seems way to expensive. the problem is, base attack bonus loss of 1 isn't to hard, but being later in spell progression realy hurts. especcially with a class that is one level behind in spell progression anyway. ciao martin m.
Nerax 03-19-06, 01:38 AM	Yeah, sorry about the late post. Alternative for Scout, Bar3/Scout3/Rog3/??? high str, high speed. take imp init. Hit them hard and early, as Gary mentioned with party tanks who are willing to make sure you get a flank you will get a nice +4d6, throw in a rage and a reach weapon and away you go. If you are playing an Elf or Half-Elf don't forget to add in 2 levels of Wildrunner to the above mentioned classes! Primal Scream and Rage for a +6 to str, +6 dex, +4 to con and a bite attack! Also you would increase you base speed by another 10' for a 60' base movement and Scent for those anoying invisible foe's! :D