Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lomiat 02-02-06, 04:52 PM	Since Gripe/Rational, Point/Counterpoint is banned on the LGCS discussion board, I figured I'd open this thread here. The point is not merely to open a free-for-all rant sesion; rather, I have some specific gripes I'd prefer not to air on the other boards, and I invite people to offer rational explanations. Likewise, this could be a place for other people's questions and answers. 1) Why did they Restrict Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability? Who has seen it abused? How does the campaign find balance by Restricting this one spell while Divine casters continue to run amok with every feat beneath the Sun god. 2) What is the point of the repairing Magic Items addition? Does anyone (besides me) have a character with Craft Magic Arms and Armor? Would anyone ever bother to spend the TUs and XP to repair SOMEONE ELSE's stuff?
redgamer 02-02-06, 04:58 PM	In order: It was easily abused yes idk but WotC seems to think clerics and paladins need something to do with turn attemps besides kill low level undead players demanded it yes yes
Stormydoom 02-02-06, 06:58 PM	I think they should let cohorts have the magic item creation feats and be able to repair the cohorts (and friends) magic items. That would add more useability to get a cohort. Just don't let them create the items or it'll be abused.
paigeoliver 02-02-06, 08:19 PM	I don't have craft arms and armor, but I would have no problem expending XP and time units to repair someone else's equipment, provided it was someone I regularly played with.
Sieylianna 02-02-06, 09:38 PM	I don't have craft arms and armor, but I would have no problem expending XP and time units to repair someone else's equipment, provided it was someone I regularly played with. I suspect the reason the option is available for fixing another PC's items is because there are already complaints about MIC being too generous since you can craft an item once you've seen it, unlike other PCs who have only 4 AR's to make the purchase. If only crafters could fix a sundered item, you'd hear even more complaints. Personally, I have an 18th level PC. The race is over. I don't expect any of my other PCs to ever reach retirement, even though one is almost 11th level. The campaign focus is shifting to lower level PCs and I see limited support in the fture for APL's 10/12 and almost none for APL's 14 and 16. Ed
WotC_Tulach 02-02-06, 10:58 PM	Personally, I have an 18th level PC. The race is over. I don't expect any of my other PCs to ever reach retirement, even though one is almost 11th level. The campaign focus is shifting to lower level PCs and I see limited support in the fture for APL's 10/12 and almost none for APL's 14 and 16. Ed Ed, You do know that we are launching high-level play in a few months, right? The rules document is set, and expect to hear more about this at Winter Fantasy (and for those not attending, right after Winter Fantasy). Support for characters of levels 1-20 will continue.
TallGuy 02-03-06, 07:25 AM	1) Why did they Restrict Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability? Because it makes it too damn easy to crank out 4+ spells a round. Wizards and sorcerers don't need to be made scarier than they already are at higher levels. Who has seen it abused? I've seen it abused, and heard plenty of people talking about how to abuse it best. At level 17+ that involves casting Shapeshift (choker), shared with the familiar for six spells a round (4 normal ones, 2 quikened). How does the campaign find balance by Restricting this one spell while Divine casters continue to run amok with every feat beneath the Sun god. Because those divine feats usually don't give extra actions in a round. 2) What is the point of the repairing Magic Items addition? Does anyone (besides me) have a character with Craft Magic Arms and Armor? Would anyone ever bother to spend the TUs and XP to repair SOMEONE ELSE's stuff? Because stuff gets sundered; Yes; Yes. Bas Vermeulen Sunndi Triad
Sieylianna 02-03-06, 07:32 AM	Ed, You do know that we are launching high-level play in a few months, right? The rules document is set, and expect to hear more about this at Winter Fantasy (and for those not attending, right after Winter Fantasy). Support for characters of levels 1-20 will continue. Yes, I know there will be a high level campaign coming later this year and I'll give it a try when it comes out. I haven't done any research, but my impression has been that starting last year, core modules which support APLs 14/16 have been decreasing as a percentage. I tnink my high level was able to play the WF LG core special, one regional and a half-dozen metaregionals last year at APL 16. Everything else was APL 12 and 1/2 XP. Ed
Mortepierre 02-03-06, 08:56 AM	Then you should be pleased as it means you'll get to enjoy it longer before it's retired :P
wagnert 02-03-06, 12:12 PM	2) What is the point of the repairing Magic Items addition? Does anyone (besides me) have a character with Craft Magic Arms and Armor? Would anyone ever bother to spend the TUs and XP to repair SOMEONE ELSE's stuff? I have one cleric with Craft Magic Arms and Armor and I have a cleric/Wizard with Craft Wonderous Items. Both incidentally, also have Scribe Scroll. With the exception of one special weapon from the Ether series, all my magic weapons and armor were enchanted by my cleric himself. I would gladly take advantage of this to repair party members sundered or broken armor or weapons.
RanielK 02-03-06, 01:14 PM	Because it makes it too damn easy to crank out 4+ spells a round. Wizards and sorcerers don't need to be made scarier than they already are at higher levels. Bas Vermeulen Sunndi Triad And who are these mythical wizzies who a)want to and b)get into fights where it's necessary and c)are ignoring the opportunity cost of wasting that many spells at once (one 6th at a minimum - assuming you aren't assuming a wizard is either pearl VI this to get it back or using TWO 6th level slots, followed up by that mix of 1 - 5 and throw in quicken spell). I see it as using a sixth level spell slot to quicken an average of 4 spells a day. More usefull than the rod o' mm goodness, not as useful as DMM:Quicken can be. It is balanced somewhat by the very viable tactic of Dispelling the familiar. A most usefull spell against such wizzies now that you can pull 5 spells off his spells per day with a well placed 3rd or 6th level spell. It's still useful at either level because you used 6 spell levels to get rid of an average of 27 spell levels. (Thats 3 first + 1 sixth up to 6 fifths + 1 sixth). And before you say, "but my ring o' counterspell" sorry bub but your familiar aint wearin it. They're the target of the targeted dispell, not you. And while you can share spells, I've never seen an interpretation that states you can share magic items (i.e. you wear the magic item, they get the benefit, and if that's the case, my familiar needs to start using that +1 deflection bonus to AC). Plus, they have to be out there to use the spells, which means they are now a viable target . . . for everything. (i.e. look, not only can we get rid of something casting spells, but we can make this other guy take one series hit, which if we're lucky will make him loose a level and some spells.) Miles
RanielK 02-03-06, 01:19 PM	Because those divine feats usually don't give extra actions in a round. Bas Vermeulen Sunndi Triad Actually DMM:Quicken does. Granted it's at a higher opportunity cost of two feats (with the potential of a third feat and a cloak of Cha), but it gives you the chance to get an extra action in exchange for something that isn't realy used ever mod (to whit turns). The inclusion of night sticks from LM is something that changes this equation (though they're at 7500 a pop, but a cleric with CWI and Extra Turning Feat would be in heaven). Miles
RanielK 02-03-06, 07:23 PM	I just posted on the LGCS Draft board to keep DMM:Quicken from being restricted (though oddly my cleric will probably never use it and he is/will be tricked out for lots of turning). I figured I'd place the gist of it here. I've got one feat and one skill that will most likely never be restricted (as they're both PHB stuff) which reproduce DMM:Quicken and Imbue Familiar and I don't even have them optomized (so to speak) for the job. They are Improved Familiar (with a pseudodragon, optomized would be a mephit speak/has hands/small humanoid/has Cha bonus) and UMD. Add Craft wand and Quicken spell and you come almost up to the utility of Imbue Familiar (3 spells per round, 1st through 4th level). Are we now going to ban familiars and wizards with the UMD skill? It seems to me the arguement against Imbue Familiar (and now being made against DMM:Quicken) is that the only way they can/will be used is by folks who are throwing 3-4 spells every round, every combat, every day, every mod. I know I had intended to take the spell to cast two spells in the first round of combat (g.invis and fly) and go to town. I can see a buff mage using it to cast 4 spells the first round of combat, beyond that how do you guarantee everyone is standing still enough to get to them to buff them (without exposing your familiar to death)? Its useful, especially in LG where we rarely know combat is imminent, and at least gains parity with the monsters who seem to more often than not know the PCs are on their way and buff. Beyond that, throw weight is nice, but it comes at a sacrifice to make your familiar a target and thus loose 1 familiar and a lot of spells at one fell swoop. Miles
Platinum 02-05-06, 12:15 AM	I'm sad to see Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability become restricted as it's my favorite spell in the game. The level cap blows huge, no, colossal chunks! What's wrong with the other levels in my PHB? Are they defective? Are they not fun to play? Do we just like putting limits on how much folks can play the game? What's the deal? :mad:
RanielK 02-05-06, 12:57 PM	The level cap blows huge, no, colossal chunks! What's wrong with the other levels in my PHB? Are they defective? Are they not fun to play? Do we just like putting limits on how much folks can play the game? What's the deal? :mad: The level cap comes about because too many adventurers were running around at 18th level and looking 11th level kings in the eye and saying "you and what army?", fully forgetting the kings had an army. In short folks was gettin' uppity. Besides, Greyhawk isn't the Realms. You aren't supposed to kick over any ole rock and find a 20th level fighter laying around. That being said, I can't wait to move into the high level campaign :D Miles
copper_wyrmling 02-06-06, 10:13 AM	Okay, my questions about the newly Restricted spells: - Why is Triadspell Restricted? It didn't seem overpowered when I read it - it allowed you to spend a fifth-level slot to gain extra third-level slots, from memory (I don't have my copy of the SC yet). Can someone explain? - Why is Grace Restricted? I'll admit to some self-interest here - it's a very weird set of benefits, but they happen to be benefits which perfectly suit my highest-level PC (as a demon-hunting cleric who uses a brambled holy quarterstaff as a double weapon - i.e. likes her Dex - and wants more mobility). I can't see the extra movement and +2 sacred bonus to Dex being a big deal - I guess it's "good-aligned weapon as a swift action" that's considered problematic? Comparing to Mass Align Weapon and Swift Bless Weapon, I still don't really see it as overpowered for its level. - Has anyone seen Mass Spell Resistance cause problems? It's currently on both the Core and Restricted lists - I don't know which way it'll be resolved. I'm very happy that they banned Mordenkainen's Disjunction :) I'm a tad disappointed that they Restricted the Spell Matrix series, because it could have been a way for sorcerers to get more than one spell per round (without spending two feats on Arcane Prep and Quicken), but I'm not particularly surprised :rolleyes: Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability was effectively Restricted in my region anyway, the Triad had made it quite clear that they didn't like the spell. Of course we still had to fight NPCs who used it in metaregionals. My sorc would have taken it in a flash if she'd had the chance (and was high enough level) - again, it would be a way for her to get more than one spell per round without spending two feats. Just my 2c.
redgamer 02-07-06, 01:28 AM	I saw Mass SR cause problems. At an interactive one of the low level tables was tasked with stopping a platoon of warmages from magic missleing the high level table. The war mages were only a threat the first round.
copper_wyrmling 02-07-06, 09:13 PM	I saw Mass SR cause problems. At an interactive one of the low level tables was tasked with stopping a platoon of warmages from magic missleing the high level table. The war mages were only a threat the first round. Magic Missile really *shouldn't* be too much of a threat to high-level tables, and the warmages could have just switched to lesser orbs if they needed to ignore SR. It seems like Lesser Globe of Invulnerability would've worked better, and it's a much lower-level spell than Mass Spell Resistance. What I've noticed now is that Mass Spell Resistance is on both the Core and the Restricted lists, so I'm not sure what they actually intended :confused:
Lomiat 02-08-06, 02:04 PM	- Why is Triadspell Restricted? It didn't seem overpowered when I read it - it allowed you to spend a fifth-level slot to gain extra third-level slots, from memory (I don't have my copy of the SC yet). Can someone explain? Triadspell is a 5th level spell that grants a cleric 9 spell levels. Compare this to Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer which is a 4th level wizard-only spell that grants a wizard 3 extra spell levels and has a 10 min. casting time. The math says Triadspell is restricted.
Medicelious-Melharmonac 02-08-06, 02:18 PM	Magic Missile really *shouldn't* be too much of a threat to high-level tables, and the warmages could have just switched to lesser orbs if they needed to ignore SR. It seems like Lesser Globe of Invulnerability would've worked better, and it's a much lower-level spell than Mass Spell Resistance. What I've noticed now is that Mass Spell Resistance is on both the Core and the Restricted lists, so I'm not sure what they actually intended :confused: I played at this table and the MM damage was significant because they were all aimed at a single character. If I recall correctly it was something on the order of 96 damage. Mass Spell Resistence in this situation was a PERFECT way of dealing with the issue and the Cleric who cast it deserves a pat on the back. What the poster did not mention was that the table was fighting an "epic level" encounter and the SR saved the table 100's of hps worth of healing. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~ My gripe about the new LGCS is the number of spells that are "limited". As a buffing cleric, limited access to "mass shield of faith" is a joke since it allows me to better do my job. If the goal is for every character of a class to play the same way then this limitation on spells is a good way to achieve that.
RanielK 02-08-06, 02:42 PM	Triadspell is a 5th level spell that grants a cleric 9 spell levels. Compare this to Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer which is a 4th level wizard-only spell that grants a wizard 3 extra spell levels and has a 10 min. casting time. The math says Triadspell is restricted. Yeah, it was pretty much determined that if a spell was x level and allowed you an effect that could be consider x+1 or greater, then it was out of there. By the same token, you are allowed y actions per turn, if a spell allows you to take >y+1 (i.e. haste or potentially contingency) and isn't Summoning (which gives you y+z^n where n is the number of critters you call) then it is out of there also. Class features like familiars or animal companions or feats like leadership aren't considered as they either have a higher opportunity cost than a spell (Leadership, you have to have a table of 4 to 5 folks only, plus its a feat) or are a class feature and nuking class features without some attendant reworking of the class is just painful. Still these are ways to gain y+z actions per turn where y are your actions and z are you buddy's. Miles