Post/Author/DateTime	Post
shearin69 01-27-05, 11:56 AM	First of all, Thanks - I an ancient RPGA from back in the 80's and recently rejoined and began playing 3.5. I Love the concept of the Warmage and very please the changes in Complete Arcane added the 4th level Orbs spells. However, in Living Greyhawk - I can play a Warmage as per the 4.1 version but the apparently I can not use the 1st level - lesser orb spells from the Miniatures Handbook (MH) until third level. This seems rather harsh as the spells are the Warmage's main arsenal. Since you left a unique exception for the Warmage’s Feats, I figured the same should apply to his spells, since CA is valid and Tome and Blood is gone after 01 Mar 2005. Please response ASAP – since I am play testing this guy in the Winter’s Fantasy in DC. Thanks
King Kashue 01-27-05, 05:14 PM	All of the lesser orb spells are in the Complete Arcane and are listed as core spells within the LGCS 4.1
CSHunt68 01-27-05, 11:11 PM	Indeed it is my understanding that, although the spells from CA are "core", they are not available until 3rd level - like everything else in the non-core books.
King Kashue 01-28-05, 05:02 PM	Indeed it is my understanding that, although the spells from CA are "core", they are not available until 3rd level - like everything else in the non-core books. Ah, yes...I misunderstood you then...Exactly where do you see the exeception for the warmage's feats that you wish carried over to spells? The warmage's feats are considered core, but they still come from the CA, and are still restricted to 3rd level and above...
CSHunt68 01-28-05, 05:11 PM	Ah, yes...I misunderstood you then...Exactly where do you see the exeception for the warmage's feats that you wish carried over to spells? The warmage's feats are considered core, but they still come from the CA, and are still restricted to 3rd level and above... What "warmage feats"? I think the thread-starter incorrectly equates class abilities with feats. There is no exception for feats from CA. There is no exception for spells from CA. There is an explicit rule prohibiting everything in the non-core books until third level, with an exception for the warmage core class from CA, and therefore all class abilities. This does not open up everything from CA to a warmage - not until third level - this includes spells. That would be my interpretation.
King Kashue 01-28-05, 05:45 PM	What "warmage feats"? I think the thread-starter incorrectly equates class abilities with feats. There is no exception for feats from CA. There is no exception for spells from CA. There is an explicit rule prohibiting everything in the non-core books until third level, with an exception for the warmage core class from CA, and therefore all class abilities. This does not open up everything from CA to a warmage - not until third level - this includes spells. That would be my interpretation. In the LGCS p.36, there is a note for the warmage class, it states: "The warmage's bonus feats are considered core for this class only, at the appropriate levels" This refers to the "Sudden" metamagic feats the class gains as bonus feats at higher levels (these feats are normally limited)...However, it states nothing about this overriding the normal 3rd level restrictions that apply to other "core feats" from the complete books (and since the first "Sudden" feat is gained at 7th, it's not even implied)... No interpretation necessary...
shearin69 01-30-05, 10:28 AM	You see my beef with starting out with the warmage, is his signature trademark at 1st level are the lesser orb spells - which are not available to him - until 01MAR when the new LGSB gets revamped. I was just curious to "WHY" LGSB 4.1 did not grant full access to the warmage's spells, when they made a specific note to the sudden feats, which as posted before - where not relavent to the first three levels. After a GREAT time at WINTER Fantasy - I am now third level and have access to the spells. Thanks for the imput, I reckon I will just wait and see what happens on 01MAR. Thanks for the feedback. :)
King Kashue 01-30-05, 03:33 PM	You see my beef with starting out with the warmage, is his signature trademark at 1st level are the lesser orb spells - which are not available to him - until 01MAR when the new LGSB gets revamped. I was just curious to "WHY" LGSB 4.1 did not grant full access to the warmage's spells, when they made a specific note to the sudden feats, which as posted before - where not relavent to the first three levels. After a GREAT time at WINTER Fantasy - I am now third level and have access to the spells. Thanks for the imput, I reckon I will just wait and see what happens on 01MAR. Thanks for the feedback. :) If your warmage is 3rd level, what's the problem, you can take the spells...And the LGCS isn't going to get revamped again, what's coming on on March 1st is the rules for updating characters to the new LGCS... And they made a note regarding the feats, because without that note those feats are limited, and you would normally need to get AR access to have them...
kjenks 01-31-05, 11:53 AM	...And the LGCS isn't going to get revamped again, what's coming on on March 1st is the rules for updating characters to the new LGCS... From Chris Tulach's notes during the draft discussion period, I believe he intends to release a minor revision of the LGCS, a new version 4.2, which removes the Builder Book stuff, on or about March 1, 2005.
King Kashue 01-31-05, 03:27 PM	From Chris Tulach's notes during the draft discussion period, I believe he intends to release a minor revision of the LGCS, a new version 4.2, which removes the Builder Book stuff, on or about March 1, 2005. But that's not going to affect any complete book stuff...He's just removing the bits that say "invalid as of March 1st"...Which I was considering as part of the conversion process rather than a revision that might affect the Warmage (which is what he seemed to expect)...
Ygor Morais 01-31-05, 07:53 PM	I see shearin69's point. Take a look at the class: it is a poor fighter, a little worst than the rogue. The main power of the class are the spells, of course, he is a warMAGE! But take a look at the list: 13 1st level spells, 8 of which are not present in the core books, only in the complete arcane book. If I create a warmage I'd have less than half of my first level spells available in a class which has the unique ability to cast on the run like a sorceror and choose from all of its (now VERY limited) spell list. At third level I'd find out things had improved... of the 11 second level spells in my 2nd level spell list only 4 would be useless to me! WOW! I'd be eagerly waiting for 3rd level by then, since I'd be a quite 'challanged' character until I had my normal selection of spells... Y
Sieylianna 01-31-05, 10:37 PM	I see shearin69's point. Take a look at the class: it is a poor fighter, a little worst than the rogue. The main power of the class are the spells, of course, he is a warMAGE! But take a look at the list: 13 1st level spells, 8 of which are not present in the core books, only in the complete arcane book. The Circle offers you something new and all you do is complain. There are a couple of options. 1) Play Intro modules, they're at least going to get you to 2nd level and buff you up a little for the slow road to 3rd level and CA spells. 2) There is a conversion coming on March 1st. a. If you think the Circle will be generous in conversion, build a warmage and then play another base class to 3rd level and then swap the levels to warmage. * I have no idea if this will be allowed in conversion * b. If you think the Circle will not allow you to take levels in the new base classes (which is what I expect to happen) during conversion. Build a warmage and use your feats to try to keep him alive until 3rd level, then swap out the feats for ones with long term potential. * Again, I don't know that this will be allowed in conversion * 3) Continue to complain about not being allowed access to CA spells. There was an argument on the LG Draft list every time that PCs should be able to take non-core feats at 2nd level, instead of 3rd. That's been 3 years and four versions of the LGCS and it still hasn't changed. Judging from the number of people who are expressing interest in warmage (including at least one of the best known power-gamers in the campaign), I don't see it changing any time soon. Enjoy it while you can, because I wouldn't be surprised to see it going the way of the frenzied berserker (which was allowed and then removed from play). Ed
Ygor Morais 02-01-05, 03:55 PM	Hey! I'm not complaining, in fact I have no desire of ever playing a warmage, I was saying that he has a point. It is something close to allow players to get the cleric class but not let them have cure magic until 3rd level! The metaphor it is an exageration, I know, but the point is that an important part of the character, more than half his spell list, is barred to him. In fact I think that even so it is an 'playable' class - it is THAT overpowered! You don't have the orbs... use a magic missile! the other 'forbidden' spells are ok, but not essential either. But what happens when you reach 3rd level? You automathically get the 'forbidden' non core spells? The class description says you train so much in their use that they become part of you subconscious mind and you can choose any of them at any time (if you still have slots to use, that is...) It does not sound very in line with the LG mechanic for non core spells, it should be an exeption to the '3rd level' and 'need documentation for non core spells' rules. But we'll only see what happens in march... Y
Sieylianna 02-01-05, 05:19 PM	In fact I think that even so it is an 'playable' class - it is THAT overpowered! You don't have the orbs... use a magic missile! the other 'forbidden' spells are ok, but not essential either. But what happens when you reach 3rd level? You automathically get the 'forbidden' non core spells? I've seen literally dozens of posts on the boards here and various LG groups from people who are planning/starting a warmage PC. I haven't seen one person express interest in any of the other new base classes. (Myself and a few other people on the Draft list wanted to play a healer, but that class isn't allowed). When there is a class that everyone wants to play, it's probably too powerful. Ed
King Kashue 02-01-05, 06:24 PM	In fact I think that even so it is an 'playable' class - it is THAT overpowered! You don't have the orbs... use a magic missile! the other 'forbidden' spells are ok, but not essential either. But what happens when you reach 3rd level? You automathically get the 'forbidden' non core spells? Y Uh, no...non core spells are not exempted for the Warmage, they don't have access to any spell not listed as core unless they have specific access... As for the argument "lots of folks want to use it, therfore it must be overpowered", that is fallicous logic...It's a class that is interesting enough to want to play it... People who look at the orb spells (especially the lesser orbs) and see them as overpowered are ignorant of the statistical realities of the game (Especially since Acid, Sonic, and Force no longer bypass hardness)...The Greater orbs are 4th level, do the same damage as 3rd level spells (such as Fireball and Lightning bolt) affect only one opponent, and exchange a ranged touch for a save...Statistically you're doing only a little more average damage than a fireball and you're only doing it to one person (the spell is useful in more situations since you can target when your companions are in melee, but not useful enough to warrant a spell slot, and certainly not enough to be considered overpowered)... Sure the warmage will do a good amount of damage, but nothing like a cheesed Barbarian-based fighter (and I used a min/maxed example, since the allegation is that the Warmage is a power gamers class)...And the warmage is missing a huge part of the flexibility mages have and the character to character diversity sorcerers have...Exceedingly useful and often encounter breaking spells are not on their list...Glitterdust, Tasha's, Haste, Slow, Fly... Even as an option for multiclassed fighters (which, with the armor use seems natural), the class is missing almost all of the key buffs (and most buffs in general): Haste, enlarge, bull strength, bear's endurance, cat's grace, greater invis, tenser's transformation... The class is a solid class in the hands of someone who knows how to play it, but it is a bit of a mutt...Supposedly designed around attack rolls, but with a wizard's BAB, can use armor but doesn't have any buffs...it's not the monster some folks are making it out to be...
nighthawk_au 02-01-05, 08:49 PM	Firstly, I believe that at the moment you cannot play the Warmage from Complete Adventurer as it does not come into effectuntil 1st March, you must instead use the one from Minitures Handbook. Secondly, as far as not being able to use the Orb spells until 3rd level due to the rule of non-Core access, if I create a 1st level Warmage from CA on 1st March, I have access to all the spells on the list. I do not believe the non-Core access rule affects the Warmage spell lists as they have made the entire Warmage class CORE. Also, check out the "Instant FAQ" on page 33 of the LGCS. Just my opinion Nighthawk
King Kashue 02-01-05, 10:08 PM	Firstly, I believe that at the moment you cannot play the Warmage from Complete Adventurer as it does not come into effectuntil 1st March, you must instead use the one from Minitures Handbook. Secondly, as far as not being able to use the Orb spells until 3rd level due to the rule of non-Core access, if I create a 1st level Warmage from CA on 1st March, I have access to all the spells on the list. I do not believe the non-Core access rule affects the Warmage spell lists as they have made the entire Warmage class CORE. Also, check out the "Instant FAQ" on page 33 of the LGCS. Just my opinion Nighthawk Acutally, the LGCS 4.1 is in effect right now, and it's only Complete Adventurer that isn't in effect yet...Complete Arcane most certainly is (I've been listening to people ***** about losing caster levels for 2 weeks now)... Page 24 lists Complete Arcane as a currently valid source, and Complete Adventurer as going into effect on March 1st... As for spell access, you are wrong (not trying to be overly blunt)...The instant FAQ applies only to Clerical Domains, it mentions nothing about the Warmage...And it specifically says it is an exception to the normal rule... The normal rule being on page 10. "A Character may not select a spell from outside the PHB until they have reached 3rd level"... And in chapter 5 it gives the definition of "Core"...'Any Character of 3rd level or higher that meets the requirements may take anything listed as core''...
Ygor Morais 02-01-05, 11:00 PM	well, if we are going to use literal interpretation, always the worst possible since systematic and theleological are much superior, lets try this: 'you can't select...' warmages don't select, they authomatically gain, it is part of their base class abilities to have access to any spell on his list as he wishes, it is not a selection like a wizard, who chooses which spells he has access to, or a a feat, which the character chooses among a number of possible ones. Automathic access to lesser orbs and the other 3 new spells can be argued on this line, I don't know if it is the best possible, but is not absurd. I just think there must be an offical answer to that, be it 'he can't use them until 3rd level' or 'he can use it as an special case'. I actually don't know why I bother, none of my players would play one anyway! Y
JohnduBois 02-02-05, 11:40 PM	The most important thing to consider regarding the debate regarding Warmage spell access happened on the Yahoo group discussion of the LGCS draft. Chris Tulach, the Circle rep for the Iuz Border States, directly stated that Warmages cannot cast non-PHB Warmage spells without special access until they hit 3rd level. If I wasn't tired, I'd give you the post number.
Ygor Morais 02-03-05, 09:24 AM	You don't need to tell me the number of the post, I trust you... seriously, if it has an official position then this discussion is meaningless. As said before by someone else you can complain about it to the people who make the rules and try to convince them it should be an exception. Good luck to those who want to try it! Y
Rillion 02-04-05, 11:00 PM	well, if we are going to use literal interpretation, always the worst possible since systematic and theleological are much superior, lets try this: 'you can't select...' warmages don't select, they authomatically gain, it is part of their base class abilities to have access to any spell on his list as he wishes, it is not a selection like a wizard, who chooses which spells he has access to, or a a feat, which the character chooses among a number of possible ones. Automathic access to lesser orbs and the other 3 new spells can be argued on this line, I don't know if it is the best possible, but is not absurd. I just think there must be an offical answer to that, be it 'he can't use them until 3rd level' or 'he can use it as an special case'. I actually don't know why I bother, none of my players would play one anyway! Y Actually that is how I read it. The WarMage does not "select" any of his spells, with the exception of the evocation spell they get to add to their list at 3rd, 6th, etc. I've already created one but haven't played him yet. I'm going to hopefully play him at TbtB this month in a Pale Intro Mod. If I will get to use the 1st level Orbs or not isn't that big a deal to me though. He does 1d3+4 with a zero level spell anyway and 1d4+4 with a magic missile. Sure it would be nice to do the 1d8+4 put I can live with that for 2 levels if I must. (anyone trying to figure out the math on those, its +1 for PBS and +3 edge, except for magic missile which doesn't get the PBS). Robert Demmell WarMage 1
King Kashue 02-05-05, 01:35 AM	Actually that is how I read it. The WarMage does not "select" any of his spells, with the exception of the evocation spell they get to add to their list at 3rd, 6th, etc. I've already created one but haven't played him yet. I'm going to hopefully play him at TbtB this month in a Pale Intro Mod. If I will get to use the 1st level Orbs or not isn't that big a deal to me though. He does 1d3+4 with a zero level spell anyway and 1d4+4 with a magic missile. Sure it would be nice to do the 1d8+4 put I can live with that for 2 levels if I must. (anyone trying to figure out the math on those, its +1 for PBS and +3 edge, except for magic missile which doesn't get the PBS). Robert Demmell WarMage 1 Well, since it has been stated that the circle had made the intent clear, interpretation isn't an issue...
WotC_Tulach 02-08-05, 11:02 AM	Warmages do not gain access to any non-Player's Handbook spells until they reach 3rd level. Last time I checked, magic missiles doing 1d4+3 or more work pretty darn good against low-level bad guys. :)
Rillion 02-09-05, 01:24 AM	Well, since it has been stated that the circle had made the intent clear, interpretation isn't an issue... Sorry, that should have red, "red" instead of "read". :D Ment it to mean that my first reading of it left me with the imperssion that they were allowed, not that I was arguing how it should be interpreted, particularly since the Circle has clarified how it should be interpreted. I've actually decided to hold of on starting the WarMage this month. I plan on waiting until March 1st, then taking a level of Scout first. That way at 2nd level I can do 1d3+4+1d6 with my mighty zero level acid splash or ray of frost spell (as long as I move 10' to get the skirmish).
Cardinal Teplin 02-09-05, 09:56 AM	It's worth noting that, even with the extra choices removed, a starting warmage still gets more spells known than either a sorceror or a wizard. I find that an arcane caster is really better off with a bow until 3rd level anyway.
RLWilde 02-09-05, 08:51 PM	If I will get to use the 1st level Orbs or not isn't that big a deal to me though. He does 1d3+4 with a zero level spell anyway and 1d4+4 with a magic missile. Sure it would be nice to do the 1d8+4 put I can live with that for 2 levels if I must. (anyone trying to figure out the math on those, its +1 for PBS and +3 edge, except for magic missile which doesn't get the PBS). So... a 0-level spell doing an average of 6 points of damage, requiring a roll to hit, and a 1st level spell doing an average of 6.5, not requiring a roll. Orbs would do an average of 8.5 for a 1st level spell, but again would require a roll. If I played a Warmage, I'd probably be more likely to use magic missile in most circumstances anyway at levels 1-2, just to be sure that the spell does something. :)
JohnduBois 02-09-05, 10:18 PM	It's worth noting that, even with the extra choices removed, a starting warmage still gets more spells known than either a sorceror or a wizard. Um... what? *Looks at wizards spell list, compares it to Warmage list* Given that a first-level wizard's spellbook includes all level 0 spells from nonrestricted schools, and the Warmage has nine spells combined between zero and first level, I think you need to redo your math. Besides, the point of the warmage is that you trade spell versatility for the ability to know more spells and do more damage with them.