Post/Author/DateTime	Post
budleiser 01-11-07, 11:57 PM	In another thread we ended up off topic talking about Limited access. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=763737 A very smart friend of mine made the comment "90% of prestige classes should be core or banned. Limited should be the smallest list of the 3" (Sorry if I misquoted, I tried to capture the theme atleast) And after thinking about it, I agree. Parts of the discussion include: -Getting the wrong feat/access for the wrong character. -Not being able to build what you want because you don't expect to get access. -A limited list entices cheating from players. If a player wants access they will gather info on what will grant access. -If a feat/spell/class is overpowered it should be banned. But when its on a Limited list its still overpowered, but because of the small pocket of players that get to abuse it; its usage will go under the radar. Thought 1) Weed out the limited list as much possible. If it's overpowered ban it. If it's not make it core. Thought 2) Access goes to the player, not the character. So when you play a mod with your fighter and gain access to a spell. All your characters have access to said spell.
kenobi65 01-12-07, 12:26 AM	Thought 2) Access goes to the player, not the character. So when you play a mod with your fighter and gain access to a spell. All your characters have access to said spell. From the standpoint of how "Limited" access works, that doesn't make much in-character sense. You get access because your character encounters something. Why should my paladin be able to buy an adamantine sword because my warmage found one?
Morgen 01-12-07, 01:21 AM	Well Limited is kind of broad... Anything that isn't banned or core is limited. Anything? You should remember that the circle or someone up there has to approve these certs though. So there is supposed to be someone paying attention.
cycloptic_squirrel 01-12-07, 02:03 AM	The limited access of feats, PRCs, and items really frustrates me. And I like it a lot. I agree that the knowledge that my character has something cool that most other don't makes me feel good. Wow. I think I just realized some stuff about myself that I'd rather not. I can think of few limited items worth building a character around. Only one or two that you can't access through a meta-org or replace with something similar. Any feat/PRC that's already in the campaign that your character absolutely cannot live without can be granted by a special mission. I get the impression that a request isn't refused that often. (I actually have no idea, but this is what I'd like to believe.) There are so many core options open that I can think of a dozen powerful builds that don't use anything limited. Forget about limited and plan out your character to 15 if that's your cup of tea. I don't think it's valid to claim that you can't build the character you want because of lack of suitable options. If we're talking role-play builds I'd wager I could come up with something close to what you want using only the PHB 95% of the time. I hope you're not taking issue because you see an option 'out there' that would let your character concept eek out another 7 damage/round at level 13 or that the fort save will be 2 better in the end. Sometime you might aquire access to this really cool PRC, which your perfectly executed PC monstrosity could have incorporated if you had known about it six levels earlier, but at the moment, it would gimp the build to try and shoehorn in the PRC. That is the price you pay for lack of versatility. It doesn't make your original build any less weak. Whatever character build you have, I guarantee that there's a better one out there. There always is. Enjoy your character for what it is and forget the Joneses. If something's overpowered and limited, it's only disrupting play at a limited number of tables. Sometimes it's really hard to tell what's disruptive without seeing the rule in action. The few numbers involved also means it's that much less painless as a campaign if it is removed. It'd frustrate me to no end if the circle continually introduced 'core' materials only to ban it 15 months later after I spent 6 levels building to it. If I'm looking for the safe bet as to what will be here in two years, I look to core access. You're saying that the limited list creates incentives to cheat in LG? I think you yourself said that at some point we have to trust the players. I'm curious as to what you've witnessed that makes you think players are holy paragons when it comes to MILs but wicked goblins when access is involved. I suspect that there is some level of cheating in LG. It'd be rather easy. I'd think most of it not to be extremely disruptive and the biggest victim is the cheater. There are systems in place to catch the most rampant and careless cheaters. I keep my eye out for anything fishy and try to present a hard public stance adamantly against it. Anything more invasive is more work than it's worth. In short: Limited access - yay! Ugly babies - boo!
Bob_the_Theurge 01-12-07, 03:33 PM	Well Limited is kind of broad... Anything that isn't banned or core is limited. Anything? You should remember that the circle or someone up there has to approve these certs though. So there is supposed to be someone paying attention. And then you see an "access" Interactive AR where over half the list is consumables and only one item on it isn't available from the DMG without even needing Cert...
Bob_the_Theurge 01-12-07, 03:54 PM	I think you're overdoing it. My main problems with "Limited" access have to do with item access and spells. With Feats/PrC's, even if you get "access" to a Limited one, chances are you won't be able to use it on your character. My rogue's got access to at least 15 Limited feats, my spellflinger to another 12 or so. Know what? I'm level 14 and have exactly 6 feats right now, and that's only because I'm a human. Now, when it comes to access and spells, THAT is where Limited access starts to hurt. Mod authors, especially at higher levels, assume that the party has "encountered" certain gear and that everybody's got it; items of stat enhancement, cloaks of resistance, funky weird metals for their weaponry, that sort of thing. I've seen a 12th level fighter that, just through blind luck, never had access to Adamantine. I've seen Wizards whose spellbook was as sparse as could be, just because their bad luck had them never encountering a spellbook or chance to learn a spell in their journeys. Sorcerors are even MORE screwed; just about every time, access to a "limited" spell is done in the form of a spellbook, making them spend thousands on thousands of gold for the entire spellbook just to learn that one dinky spell. And even worse, half the time, it's not the option to "learn" the spell or "buy" the spellbook, but the chance to "copy the spell" from an NPC, meaning the Sorceror is shut out in the cold from learning it anyways. What I'd love to see is some form of tiered access. We have this to some extent already; from level 1 to 3, you're limited to PHB for feats and classes, and a certain GP limit for items from certain tables in the PHB and DMG. Why not open it up a bit more? Just say that by, say, 9th level everyone has access to purchase items up to (example) 16,000 GP and Mithral or Adamantine?
Lomiat 01-12-07, 04:05 PM	In short: Limited access - yay! Ugly babies - boo! That's my new sig, man. Thanks.
LGMoses 01-12-07, 04:15 PM	Whats rong with limited access. Really a prestige class is just a way to customize your character. The DM's guide even suggests that you (the DM) make your own to fit your campaign (see the black tower wizard example). But if you never come across the Black Tower wizards then u shudn't take lvls in it. I like the way access works. It keeps characters original. If prestige classes, feats, etc. were just core and easily accessible then too many people would just focus on making builds to get the awesome stuff and never really enjoy just playing the game.
Lomiat 01-12-07, 04:17 PM	I've seen Wizards whose spellbook was as sparse as could be, just because their bad luck had them never encountering a spellbook or chance to learn a spell in their journeys. Sorcerors are even MORE screwed; just about every time, access to a "limited" spell is done in the form of a spellbook, making them spend thousands on thousands of gold for the entire spellbook just to learn that one dinky spell. And even worse, half the time, it's not the option to "learn" the spell or "buy" the spellbook, but the chance to "copy the spell" from an NPC, meaning the Sorceror is shut out in the cold from learning it anyways. Wizards who own sparse spellbooks simply haven't pursued their options. The PHB spells are Core (with the few, notable, restrictions), and Wizards can buy scrolls up to 4th level without gaining AR access. This means a wizard can fill up a couple spellbooks with every PHB spell of 0 to 4th level, along with 2 Core spells from outside the PHB per level (from 3rd onward). I'm not going to count it or do the math, but that's a lot. If the players who run those wizards whine about failing to find access to spells, let them know how the campaign actually works. Or, perhaps, they just don't want to spend their precious gp on spell options, prefering instead to get other (less important) stuff. Sorcerors don't need access to Core spells, either; they have all the same options as the wizards as noted above. Limited spells are cool, but they aren't game-breaking any more than the PHB spells. And when they are (Ray of Stupidity), they get removed. I expect that players who complain about limited access to Limited spells are either looking for some status from how many Limited spells their character knows, or see something in a spell that they think is more powerful for their builds than they get from Core spells. I sympathize with both plights, but the first is, after all, immaterial, and in the case of the second, the player simply needs to use spells his/her wizard already has. It's simple enough to prove effective with an arcane caster using only Core spells (or even just PHB feats and spells).
UMiskatonic 01-15-07, 11:26 AM	Your idea gives a new problem, and it's one that's a big concern for me. -Do the people who play more often deserve better characters? If access goes to the player, then people with more free time will have the most powerful characters. This is because running through twice as many mods, will give you access to twice as many nifty items. Giving those items to the most suitable characters would be a benefit. I'd much rather keep it a level playing field. If you want better access, be patient and play more. Go to an out-of-region con, you'll see stuff that none of the other locals have.
clannagh 01-15-07, 12:29 PM	thing is seemin as limited is basically anything not classified who is gunna run around and classify the new stuff the same day it comes out so we can maintain up to date lists with nothing limited ?
amnuxoll 01-16-07, 03:45 PM	I vote to keep Limited Access as is for these reasons: 1. Less drudge work for the Circle means a better campaign for us. The current situation with a short list of core or restricted items and "default limited" ruling for everything else does this best. 2. If you really, really, really want something for a particular PC you'll get it. Either you'll arrange a special mission or you'll drum up enough support to have your triad get it in a mod. That it's hard to arrange these things is good but anyone who says it's impossible doesn't want it bad enough. 3. If we open up the floodgates, it's the power gamers who benefit. As it stands now, folks who contribute to the campaign in a positive way are more likely to get limited access that they want. 4. The current core access list is pretty robust. I won't complain about something new added from time to time, but I definitely frown on lots of new stuff being added. 5. Arguments like "a fighter has to have adamantine" are silly. Is it handy? Heck, yeah. Is it essential? Nah. (I also like the fact that golems/constructs encourage creativity. In particular, spellcasters often get a chance to shine.) I can't think of any non-core items that are essential for any PC. 6. Every once in while when the exact right PC gets exactly the right item it's a great thrill. Poor reasons perhaps but they are mine. :AMN:
Japangirl 01-16-07, 04:32 PM	Spellcasters shine against golems and constructs? I don't know which constructs you fight, but the ones I've seen lately seem to all have Magic Immunity (infinite SR, effectively) and some of them have spell turning for spell levels 1-3. Golems are one of the things that you pretty much want to beat down with physical damage, and if the thingy has DR 15/adamantium and over 200 HP, then adamantium access does almost become required. Actually required? No, not any more than silver or cold iron to deal with undead and evil outsiders. But just as useful if not moreso. I have no problems with Mithral and Adamantium being access only, and no problems with silver and cold iron being Core access. But to claim that fighters don't *need* adamantium is not true. It is needed as a special material option just as much as cold iron and silver. As for asking the Triad. I did that, the item got included in a module, but I didn't know beforehand (of couse, since that would be cheating) and I played it with the wrong character :(. Not a problem at all, but not a for-sure solution either.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-16-07, 04:43 PM	I vote to keep Limited Access as is for these reasons: 1. Less drudge work for the Circle means a better campaign for us. The current situation with a short list of core or restricted items and "default limited" ruling for everything else does this best. 2. If you really, really, really want something for a particular PC you'll get it. Either you'll arrange a special mission or you'll drum up enough support to have your triad get it in a mod. That it's hard to arrange these things is good but anyone who says it's impossible doesn't want it bad enough. 3. If we open up the floodgates, it's the power gamers who benefit. As it stands now, folks who contribute to the campaign in a positive way are more likely to get limited access that they want. 4. The current core access list is pretty robust. I won't complain about something new added from time to time, but I definitely frown on lots of new stuff being added. 5. Arguments like "a fighter has to have adamantine" are silly. Is it handy? Heck, yeah. Is it essential? Nah. (I also like the fact that golems/constructs encourage creativity. In particular, spellcasters often get a chance to shine.) I can't think of any non-core items that are essential for any PC. 6. Every once in while when the exact right PC gets exactly the right item it's a great thrill. Poor reasons perhaps but they are mine. :AMN: I agree with just about everything except comment 5. I believe, like you, that Adamantine is very useful for a fighter, though not essential depending on the build. What I disagree with is your example against golems and constructs giving spellcasters a chance to shine, because spellcasters ALWAYS get to shine. Golems used to mean that the FIGHTER got to shine, especially if he had an adamantine weapon or golem bane scarab, because prior to the orb spells and the slew of new SR free offensive spells, casters could do little more than hide, or buff the fighter maybe...That said, I think enough authors realize the value of mithril and adamantine to give access often enough anyway...
_metz_ 01-16-07, 07:32 PM	I like Randomness, makes LG fun, whilst its frustrating that my Dwarf has access to the Dread Pirate my Rogue wants, and my Rogue has access to the Phylactory of undead turning and Libris Mortis feats, its jsut what is about LG. Think of it this way, in DnD as it was originally intended, it was a game that depended completely on what the DM had happen in hte campaign. By asking for all classes to be allowed cos it makes build easier, you are NOT roleplaying, as in theory you are demanding the DM/campaign give you what you want so that you can just build a character and fight it in the combats as though it was a war game or preset combat mechanic. IN original DnD a fighter who was carrying a great axe and was going to weapon focus it might change his mind when hte DM gives him a +1 greatsword. Its the same in RPGA. If you want to roleplay a CHARACTER not a build than you will have a lot of fun, as you struggle in game to do what your character wants, and acheive things, sometimes failing, sometimes being sidetracked by ACTUAL events in a campaing, like my wizard mate Alvin who got turned into a Shadow so just HAD to take take shadow caster progression, it wasn't the build he had, it wasn't even that optimal, just funky and reflected the nature of ongoing campaigns. What you ask is for RPGA to be a purely combat intensive game of numbers where there are no variables and in fact what is more important is to have a plan and stick to it, and as such will be able to defeat anything you encounter. Whilst I occasionally get a bit grumpy over access I think that it is the core point of DnD that the players not know what they will get, they ust make a level one and HOPE for the best. If you want no variables I suggest a home game with optimised characters in an optimised party with a DM who you can get to give you what you want at first level as access. Sorry to get a little worked up, but people are always complaining about this for reasons of optimising, and thats not what ROLEPLAYING is about. Sure nothing wrong with a powerful character, but that is not what the game was created for.
_m_ 01-16-07, 07:50 PM	I like Randomness, makes LG fun, whilst its frustrating that my Dwarf has access to the Dread Pirate my Rogue wants, and my Rogue has access to the Phylactory of undead turning and Libris Mortis feats, its jsut what is about LG. Think of it this way, in DnD as it was originally intended, it was a game that depended completely on what the DM had happen in hte campaign. By asking for all classes to be allowed cos it makes build easier, you are NOT roleplaying, as in theory you are demanding the DM/campaign give you what you want so that you can just build a character and fight it in the combats as though it was a war game or preset combat mechanic. IN original DnD a fighter who was carrying a great axe and was going to weapon focus it might change his mind when hte DM gives him a +1 greatsword. Its the same in RPGA. If you want to roleplay a CHARACTER not a build than you will have a lot of fun, as you struggle in game to do what your character wants, and acheive things, sometimes failing, sometimes being sidetracked by ACTUAL events in a campaing, like my wizard mate Alvin who got turned into a Shadow so just HAD to take take shadow caster progression, it wasn't the build he had, it wasn't even that optimal, just funky and reflected the nature of ongoing campaigns. What you ask is for RPGA to be a purely combat intensive game of numbers where there are no variables and in fact what is more important is to have a plan and stick to it, and as such will be able to defeat anything you encounter. Whilst I occasionally get a bit grumpy over access I think that it is the core point of DnD that the players not know what they will get, they ust make a level one and HOPE for the best. If you want no variables I suggest a home game with optimised characters in an optimised party with a DM who you can get to give you what you want at first level as access. Sorry to get a little worked up, but people are always complaining about this for reasons of optimising, and thats not what ROLEPLAYING is about. Sure nothing wrong with a powerful character, but that is not what the game was created for. awww! alvin loves you too :D i completely and whole heartedly agree. sure, feel free to plan your character all you like.. i always plan all of my characters, usually nearly optimaly, all the way up to lvl 15, but i never stick to it. the point is that lgh is FLUID. you're character, as in, its role playing personality, is an ever changing creature. sure, you may be a combat cleric of moradin, crusing around smiting things, but who knows, a great storm and a strike of lightning to your face, and you might have an epiphany, and procan stormlord time for you. i mean, alvin was going straight no drop wizard / prc to 15, but after getting shadowcaster access, and turning into a shadow himself, how could i NOT take it. all you folk whining about access, lighten up! try and have a bit more fun playing... a ROLEPLAY game. if it happens, thats cool, if it dosent, role with it anyway. ... But... you're green on the outside.