Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TXCBoy36 01-19-06, 01:09 AM	I am looking to join a Living Greyhawk adventure at a RPGA convention, but the character classes are very different from typical D&D adventures. Do they not have typical fighters, clerics, wizards and/or Sorcerer's???? What does APL stand for? Any help would be appreciated!!
Stormydoom 01-19-06, 01:39 AM	No there are all the standard phb classes and a few from the complete series and Minitures handbook classes to choose your class from. APL is the calculation of the average party level. You add the character levels of every player together than divide by the number of players. This gives you a look at how difficult the dm should run the adventure to equal a challenge to the players.
ithardin 01-19-06, 02:45 AM	In addition to the standard classes and races from the PHB, there are some additional classes and races available: Favored Soul (Complete Divine) Marshall (Miniatures Handbook) Warmage (Miniatures Handbook) Scout (Complete Adventurer) Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior) Wood Elf Grey Elf I know there are some other options as well. There are even different races of humans, etc. The best thing to do is get your hands on a copy of the Living Greyhawk Campaign Sourcebook (which is available on the WOTC site). It is about to be updated but it will still give you all the information you need. The hard part about LG is using the point buy system to choose ability scores as opposed to "rolling up" a PC. It REALLY makes you think and plan for the present and future of the PC. APL was answered above. Lets say you have: Level 2 Fighter, Level 3 Wizard, Level 5 Cleric, Level 2 Rogue, Level 3 Ranger, Level 2 Bard all playing at the same table. Add the levels (2+3+5+2+3+2) and you get 17. Add one to that for having a "full" table (6 players) and you get 18. Divide by 6 (# of players) and you have an APL of 3. This means your group can play the module at APL2 or at APL4. The higher the APL the more challenging, but you also get more XP, more gold, and usually access to better items.
ithardin 01-19-06, 02:56 AM	Here's the link to the page that has everything you need to get started, including character sheets, etc. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/welcome Look on the right side for "campaign documents" and that will let you download the LGCS. Good luck and have fun.
TallGuy 01-19-06, 04:28 AM	APL was answered above. Lets say you have: Level 2 Fighter, Level 3 Wizard, Level 5 Cleric, Level 2 Rogue, Level 3 Ranger, Level 2 Bard all playing at the same table. Add the levels (2+3+5+2+3+2) and you get 17. Add one to that for having a "full" table (6 players) and you get 18. Divide by 6 (# of players) and you have an APL of 3. This means your group can play the module at APL2 or at APL4. The higher the APL the more challenging, but you also get more XP, more gold, and usually access to better items. Just a minor correction: You divide by the number of players and round first, then add 1 for a table of six. So (2+3+5+2+3+2) = 17/6 = 3, add 1 for a full table for APL4.
paigeoliver 01-19-06, 07:11 AM	I think everyone missed what this guy was actually talking about. I am pretty sure he was talking about warhorn registrations. If you have never played before then you should ideally sign up for a module with the word "Intro" somewhere in the title. If none of those are available then you should sign up for APL 2. Those character classes you are seeing are not character classes but general party role. Big burly barbarians with greatswords and tough dwarfs with a lot of hit points are generally "tanks". Melee fighters who use shields and don't have huge CON bonuses, melee rangers, fighting marshalls, melee scouts, and the like are generally "light infantry". Rogues are generally rogues, but can be scouts, bards or marshalls too. Divine casters are clerics and favored souls, and sometimes druids. Arcane casters are Wizards, sorcerors, and warmages. Summoners are usually druids, but can also be summoning based wizards and sorcerors. Calvary are characters who ride an animal as an important part of their schtick. Archers are just about any person who concentrates on ranged attacks. Can be any of the fighting classes, could also be theives, marshalls and many others. If a ranged weapon is your main thing then you are an archer. Artillery is blaster mages. If your mage memorizes all fireballs and carries a wand if lightning (just in case), then he might be an artillery. Medic/support is for backup characters who don't fight well. Specialized marshalls, bards, thieves, etc. Basically good for characters who don't do a lot of spellcasting and also don't do a lot of weapon attacks either. Generalist is good for bards, some marshalls, and those characters who split a bunch of levels between various classes. Usually though a generalist will either be a bard or a character with levels in both spellcasting and non spellcasting classes. Just choose whichever one fits your character best. One suggestion, of this is your first game and you are going to be stuck playing APL 2 (or god forbid APL 4) then bring a few different characters with you and choose which one to use based on what the other people at the table have. Be sure to make a cleric or favored soul, in case there is no healing at the table, as you DON'T want to bring a first level sorceror to an APL 2 or 4 table that has no healer. You might get knocked out in the first round of the first fight and spend the rest of the module sitting there unconscious while your teammates carry you around. Also, if you are really going to get into living greyhawk then you will probably end up with several characters, so you can always start that dream character later. It is often good to have at least 2 or 3 characters just so you can select the best character for the situation. You might love bards, but a bard is a poor choice if there are only 3 other people playing (unless it is a really sweet bard who is higher level than the APL). I have two main characters, an archer and a 20 Charisma marshall (well it will be 20 as soon as he plays again, buying a cloak of charisma +2). The marshall is very, VERY tweaked to boost and aid OTHER characters, by himself all he can do is trip kobolds, disarm people, get knocked out and run away, but he is great at a full table of 6 that will have 5 other people to take advantage of the bonuses he provides. On the other hand if there are less than 6 people playing then I will play my archer (unless I encounter a 5 person table that has the other four all playing fighters, in that case I WILL play my marshall). If there are only 4 people playing then I will play my archer AND I will bring a riding dog along. I don't always bring the dog since they are expensive and get killed easily, but they are great to boost an otherwise weak table.
ithardin 01-19-06, 12:42 PM	...and that is why Paige organizes our low level tables at gameday *slaps forhead*
DuctShuiTengu 01-19-06, 01:33 PM	Also, a minor note: unless this gets changed in the new version of the LGCS, the version of Warmage used in LG is the one from Complete Arcane, not Miniature's Handbook (though I haven't yet looked at the two enough to tell you what the differences are).
solbergb 01-19-06, 03:19 PM	Minor nit. On warhorn "Heavy infantry" tends to mean what it does in real life...heavy armor - you can stand in the front line and not be cut to ribbons. Traditionally these are fullplate fighters, paladins, melee-oriented clerics and similar style builds. "Light Infantry" tends to be mobile infantry with lighter armor. Traditionally these are barbarians, monks and melee rangers, although some rogue-types, melee-oriented spellcasters (arcane, druid or bard) who are actually built to be effective in that role qualify. Druids, because their companions are "light infantry" often take this role when signing up. Caster types who pick "infantry" are sending a signal that their spells are tied up in making themselves better warriors, not in doing traditional spellcasting for the party. In general the "infantry" classes are ALSO expected to do respectable melee damage, but in practice this isn't always true, or is only true in limited circumstances. (many "tanks" rely on combat expertise and fighting defensively for that big AC, and don't have the feat/strength emphasis to do big melee damage. many "light infantry" do big damage only in special circumstances, as a rogue sneak attack or monk flurry) The important thing about these two roles is that they think of themselves as primarily warrior types, but their style is weighted either toward armor or mobility. Neither, unfortunately, says much about how much they can contribute to the party offense, that's something you have to figure out at the table. Cavalry = "I get a lot of power from my mount, and am less effective without it." Rogue = "I'm good at trapfinding and have a bunch of other skills". If you are a rogue that isn't good at trapfinding, light infantry or generalist is usually the best entry. Archer = "I kill things with ranged weapons" and if you can't do significant damage with a full attack every round at range, you are probably something else. (a rogue with a crossbow isn't an archer...a character with rapid shot, two weapon fighting, quickdraw, point blank and precise shot who happens to have rogue levels can be an archer, even if he doesn't use a bow but instead relies on throwing things) Some other concepts: Arcane Caster: This is a wizard or sorcerer, NOT any other arcane class, and he has at most lost one caster level to multiclass/PRC. He is expected to contribute with arcane spells, and do stuff expected of that role at least minimally (eg, a sorcerer without a way of revealing invisible targets will have a scroll of glitterdust) Artillery: This is normally a codeword for "warmage" but also would indicate a "blaster sorcerer" who doesn't have the flexibilty to do the arcane caster role due to spell selection. Divine Caster: This is generally a "traditional cleric" who does a mix of healing, buffing, offensive spellcasting and usually is fairly good at turning unead. Druids usually fall under summoner or light infantry, but those that don't have such a tight focus sometimes land here and if the party lacks some other cleric, prep more healing/support than is typical of a druid. Divine casters are most likely to be able to "stick" offensive divine magic on bad guys. A favored sould might take this role, if his spell mix is similar to that of what a typical cleric would do in combat. Medic/Support: This character sucks at offense in all ways, but is a specialist in making others do well. Typically these are clerics who dumped physical stats and oriented feats around healing/spellcasting. A favored soul might take this route if his spells are oriented toward party revitalization and protection and enhancement. Summoner: Normally but not always a druid, this guy has augment summoning and quite often rapid spell, and summons critters as his primary combat role. This is probably the most complex character to play from an organizational standpoint, as he needs to keep track of multiple statblocks and do many actions in each round of combat. A disorganized summoner can really slow down a table, an organized one can shift the balance of power a lot. Generalist: I'm not good at anything, but I can fill two or more party roles poorly. Typically these are either characters who are at a weak point in their development for whatever reason (lacking a key feat, class or spell or whatever that will make their abilites come together) or something like a Mystic Theurge, which loses a lot of caster levels to cast in two arenas. Generalists often have a large skill mix...and some generalists are really "medic-support" without the "medic" - many bards for example, fall in this category, as do most diplomats, marshalls and such. It's a good idea to ask a generalist what he actually does when you sit down at the table.
solbergb 01-19-06, 03:29 PM	Some examples from my wife's characters and mine. Monk who is strong and has trip/grapple: Light infantry Cleric who does a lot of offensive spellcasting and specializes in banishing demons and destroying undead: Divine Caster Sorcereress with spells oriented around telekenetic-like effects, but who carries scrolls and wands to cover stuff "expected" of a wizard: Arcane Caster Ranger/Fighter with a little wizard magic who uses a bow as his primary weapon: Archer Druid who tends to do offensive spellcasting and summoning rather than focusing on wildshape and/or animal companion: Summoner Fullplate+tower shield dwarf fighter/barbarian/bard: Tank lightly armored dwarf fighter/barbarian: Light infantry Gnome Favored soul with high AC but mostly healing/protective spells: Medic/Support Gnome Sorcerer focused on illusion, with draconic breath feat: arcane caster Fairly traditional cleric, who can turn undead, water creatures, fire creatures and oozes: Divine Caster Centaur warrior type: Cavalry (although it is her hooves that make some terrain awkward, not that of a "mount") Druid with 1 level of barbarian who focuses on melee combat, eventually via wildshape: Light infantry "Gentleman's Gentleman (Valet)" who focuses on keeping his noble alive (and is lightly armored, has mobility+social skill mix and favors light armor and reach weaopns): Light infantry (but Rogue in his first level or two, where his trapfinding is similar to a traditional rogue, and his fighting skills aren't where they will be in the future). If he focused more on social skills and use magic device, less on being a decent warrior, he'd be a generalist. Warmage: Artillery
Sieylianna 01-20-06, 07:33 AM	This is the reason that I'm not a big fan of warhorn. Even though the warhorn site has information on what the various categories are designed to mean, it's still subject to individual interpretation. In addition, since you can only enter a single PC, you don't have the flexibility to indicate that you are open to several APL's and have a range of characters to complement the rest of the party. Ed
paigeoliver 01-20-06, 07:48 AM	This is the reason that I'm not a big fan of warhorn. Even though the warhorn site has information on what the various categories are designed to mean, it's still subject to individual interpretation. In addition, since you can only enter a single PC, you don't have the flexibility to indicate that you are open to several APL's and have a range of characters to complement the rest of the party. Ed If you are flexible then just enter the character that seems needed most at the table you sign up for and then let everyone know the options you have available once you get there. I regularly register one character and then play another, and it isn't uncommon for people to not show up, and unregistered people to show up, etc. The biggest thing your Warhorn reg is doing for most games is saving your spot.
Lomiat 01-20-06, 09:37 AM	Warhorn's primary use is to show and reserve spots at tables. Organizers who use Warhorn are happy to track people with it. Meanwhile, the categories might not be ideal, but they're not that bad, either. What's my Bbn1/Ftr2/Hex1/Rog2 mutt? Is he a Fighter? Is he a Rogue? Is he a Barbarian? Naw... he's "light infantry." It gets worse after you introduce the myriad prestige classes... Well, except that you could have an entry just for Radiant Servant. Blah.
solbergb 01-20-06, 12:03 PM	Nah..Radiant Servants might be Medic/Support, if they focus on the healing, or they might be divine caster, if they focus on the offensive spellcasting. Some might even be tank or light infantry, because of the extra weapon proficiencies, in spite of the lower hit die. You can't pidgeonhole characters by the classes that make them up. The "role" based approach in Warhorn works better for balancing tables, even though it can't be perfect.
Sieylianna 01-20-06, 12:38 PM	Nah..Radiant Servants might be Medic/Support, if they focus on the healing, or they might be divine caster, if they focus on the offensive spellcasting. My favored soul 2, goes in as a divine caster. My rogue 2 goes in as a generalist (minimal open locks and disable device). My cleric 3, future radiant servant goes in as a Divine Caster. My barbarian 1 / wizard 2, future eldritch knight goes in as light infantry. (he can't shake the habit of charging into melee with his great ax). My ranger 6 goes in as an archer. My druid 10 goes in as a divine caster. My wizard 18 goes in as an arcane caster. Warhorn is helpful, but it's all subjective. I have three PCs of different classes, all of whom I consider divine casters. This is especially true if you travel to other regions, where the accepted standards may be different. Ed
JamesMaissen 01-20-06, 04:09 PM	Nah..Radiant Servants might be Medic/Support, if they focus on the healing, or they might be divine caster, if they focus on the offensive spellcasting. Some might even be tank or light infantry, because of the extra weapon proficiencies, in spite of the lower hit die. You can't pidgeonhole characters by the classes that make them up. The "role" based approach in Warhorn works better for balancing tables, even though it can't be perfect. This is one aspect of Warhorn that I don't care too much for.. back when it was not omnipresent there was another similar program I seem to recall that I think DoU used that had a place for a person to enter in all of his/her characters (name/class breakdown & Levels) that you could reference by looking up the name of the person. So there wasn't any confusion on what was meant by 'divine caster' you could actually see what they were intending to play and also what they might be able to switch over to (say if they signed up early at a disparaging APL from all the later entries). But on that subject I never cared for tank vs light infantry. When I think light infantry I think Monk, finesse fighter, etc. My original two main fighters were a halforc barbarian great cleaver (aka 'nuke' fighter) and an elven devoted defender/bladesinger (aka 'cork'). It just seemed wrong to call the halforc a light infantry while the elf was a tank, as neither seemed to be what you would conjure with either title. -James
Paul H 01-26-06, 06:42 PM	Hi Been playing LG for short while, now. What's this 'Warhorn' you on about? Get the general gist of it, but I subscribe to different site where my characters are logged. Currently using: Clr (Boccob) 3 Warmage 3 (Magic/Trickery) Going Mystic Theurge. Support Clr 1 (Lirr) (Magic/Travel) Going Warmage. Current Healer, then Artillery (She's got 16 Int for Edge, probably staying Warmage, no PrC's) Cheers Paul H
TXCBoy36 01-26-06, 07:23 PM	Wow...alot of information to take in. So, I guess what I really need to do is just sign up for a game and make sure everyone understands that I am new to the Living Greyhawk world. Maybe I can locate a local game that does the Living Greyhawk series, so I can get familiar with the whole setup. I appreicate all of the great responses. It has helped alot!!!
kenobi65 01-26-06, 09:10 PM	Been playing LG for short while, now. What's this 'Warhorn' you on about? It's a website that many conventions and game days use for registration and pre-mustering of tables.