Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chicago Faucet 08-20-07, 11:47 PM	Or..."We don't need no stinkin' RPGA." (I'm not really that anarchic, but I couldn't resist the relevant quote.) The decree came down that Living Greyhawk is ending, and so the questions sprung forth, both outloud to others, and internally to ourselves: Is the RPGA really ending Living Greyhawk? How do we continue to enjoy Living Greyhawk for the next year, knowing that it is ending? Will we be willing to switch over to Forgotten Realms when the time comes? Can I come to terms with knowing that something I love, and have invested so much time, energy, and money into, is ending? But it occurred to me that there is an alternate choice that I have yet to see any Living Greyhawk players propose. Maybe it doesn't have to end. Maybe we can do it ourselves. I ran the logistics through my head, and it seems that we already have all the material that we need to continue this ourselves. For instance, we have the Greyhawk Gazetteer, while being a little outdated, has worked for the several years since it has been published. We already have the map, and the divided regions and meta-regions. We also already have the history of Greyhawk. The most current Campaign Sourcebook for Living Greyhawk is the best one yet, mostly for its brevity, leniency, and simplicity, and the various meta-regional information that I have seen seems pretty complete, so both of those can last for the long-term without needing updating. Plus, at least most of the material we use to play Living Greyhawk is open-source. It has to be since it is widely disseminated to anyone who asks for it, and the same material is used in home games around the world. And just recently, it was posted on the Living Greyhawk page by Creighton himself the "Writing Core Adventures" synopsis, as well as a template that Living Greyhawk Core mods follow, which can be downloaded and used by us. It is also a benefit that the mods that we play are written by fellow Living Greyhawk players. It is with this information that we can write our own mods. Plus, we have a wealth of brilliant and resourceful Living Greyhawk players who are dedicated to the game. We have kept the game going due to our involvement, so it can keep going with our involvement. So, really, the RPGA is only a obstacle in this instance. After all, this gaming system runs by participation of the community. The RPGA only hands out ID cards. All we need is a central website (for instance, www.living-greyhawk.com is available) as a repository for these documents, and we can do it ourselves. But some basic points of detail to ponder: This means that we can write mods however we want to, to break the normal three-encounters equation. We can make them as wild and as tough as we want to. We have to realize that we wouldn't get any support from the RPGA when it comes to awards, conventions, and accumulating points. All mods written should be accepted and published for anyone to play on the website. No mods can directly conflict with each other. Should Living Greyhawk remain in the 3.5 rule set?
KarmaInferno 08-20-07, 11:59 PM	Other than, you know, breaking the law. WotC gave permission to develop LG in a very specific format. Every adventure written is under specific contract. What you propose falls well outside those legal bounds. -karma
clannagh 08-21-07, 12:21 AM	Other than, you know, breaking the law. WotC gave permission to develop LG in a very specific format. Every adventure written is under specific contract. What you propose falls well outside those legal bounds. -karma It's not completley impossible to cull the copyright content but without WoTC permission the exercise would be ludicrously hard and hardly worth it.
Puggle Halfwine 08-21-07, 12:54 AM	As I said to someone else on our regional mailing list, "Make a Fort Save vs Intellectual Property laws."
WotC_Tulach 08-21-07, 02:40 AM	To answer a few of the OP's questions: Yes, the LG campaign is concluding at Origins 2008. We're sending it off in style with the greatest finale we can muster. It's going to go out on top. You can still continue to enjoy something that's ending. Everyone does it all the time - we watch TV shows that are going to end to find out how they wrap up, run fixed-length campaigns, etc. I know it's tough because you know it's ending, but it's a much better situation than it just being "cancelled" without notice, or fading away because of resource strain or neglect. There was never any assumption that it would last forever - we're going to have 8 great years once it's all said and done, and lots of awesome memories. To address your proposal, there are 2 big things that work against a third-party Living Greyhawk campaign. The first of the two is there will not be a conversion guide from 3.5 to 4th Edition. This means that any attempt at conversion will be a colossal mess - even with a conversion guide from 2nd Edition to 3rd Edition, Living City's conversion basically was the death knell for that campaign. The second, much bigger issue is that of intellectual property. I won't go into legal specifics here except simply to state that all Greyhawk references in Living Greyhawk content are the property of Wizards of the Coast. It is my sincere hope that all LG players will give the campaign its final go and create play experiences that will be remembered for many years to come.
MadVlad 08-21-07, 06:35 AM	I'd like to point out, since Chris just used a TV reference, that the show Jericho was canceled last year by CBS then re-upped after overwhelming fan support (including 13 pallets of peanuts delivered to the corporate offices for whatever reason). So, our goal here is to show that overwhelming fan support, one way or the other. I'm assuming Chris and the others wouldn't like 13 pallets of grey feathers....
Mithreinmaethor 08-21-07, 07:56 AM	It has been pointed out elsewhere that Chris was not overly happy with the ending of LG. But he has higher bosses he answers to and they were the ones that made the decision. If we are ever to see a chance for another LG then the best thing to do is show our support for the current living campaign, and thru normal non-emotional emails and postings, let the higher powers know we still love LG.
Arassuil 08-21-07, 11:05 AM	I think that the only real way that people can keep playing their LG characters is to start up a home game with them, and to make life easy, use the v3.5 rules. Otherwise, as others have stated, it would be very, very difficult to continue it as a third party LG game. I'm sad that LG is ending. And a little bit annoyed that the RPGA allowed all these neat new character options for newer characters and now the game is ending. Now, I'm not blaming anyone. I believe that those options wouldn't have been implemented if it were known at the time. On some level, it seems that all the time and energy is a bit of a waste. But then, all home games eventually end, and the characters are abandoned. *shrug* But, there's always a silver lining -- at least with the upcoming new campaign, everyone starts off at the same level. When I first started LG, there wasn't a lot of local players who played it. So I was a 1st level character, and almost everyone else had level 8, 9, and 10 characters as their primary ones (and about level 5-ish with secondary characters). It's always been a struggle to keep up. Only trouble is that I don't know much about Forgotten Realms. So now I have to learn about that campaign world now. And I'm fairly lazy, so I hate learning new stuff ;) I can only hope that the new campaign will be as fun to play as LG was.
tvknight415 08-22-07, 06:48 AM	I'd like to point out, since Chris just used a TV reference, that the show Jericho was canceled last year by CBS then re-upped after overwhelming fan support (including 13 pallets of peanuts delivered to the corporate offices for whatever reason). So, our goal here is to show that overwhelming fan support, one way or the other. I'm assuming Chris and the others wouldn't like 13 pallets of grey feathers.... Put me down for 1 pallet. ;-)
Swiftbrook 08-22-07, 09:35 AM	The second, much bigger issue is that of intellectual property. I won't go into legal specifics here except simply to state that all Greyhawk references in Living Greyhawk content are the property of Wizards of the Coast. An interesting rumor that I heard was that Greyhawk references are not the property of WotC and that WotC are paying royalties on those references. If this is true, and WotC stoped paying those royalties, LG could be restarted without WotC. That said. If LG does restart, don't convert characters. Start everyone fresh at 1st level with 4.0 ruleset. -Swiftbrook
heirodule 08-22-07, 10:28 AM	I still think there is an interesting unexplored issue of what it means for an RPG publisher to publish material to be used to play a game. There is no legal defintion of "playing the game that youre allowed to play" Sure, you can have a GM run for 6 guys. You can have 2 GM's collaborate and run 12 guys. People do that. You can have a convention, get one guy to write an interactive using all kinds of IP and have 100 players and 20 GMs So why not have a GM club with a stable of modules they share. Its all personal use, for a special kind of game that 1000 people are playing. The Oerth journal is out on the internets. Does it have to be taken down? Canonfire is out there. Does it have to go? At some magic point lawyers say your "distributing" IP without rights. But if they wanted to, WOTC could claim that when 2 GMs share books and run a team game. But there was an implied right to play the game granted when you released the game and said "go play it". I should be able to videotape my running of Ruins of Greyhawk and distribute it on youtube. Didn't White Wolf try to claim that you can't run a LARP without forking over money to them? Didn't that go nowhere, since they produced rules to play "the game". Its also interesting if the DI allows a GM to make a scenario for online play and share it. Can't DI players share mods together? Can't they use the greyhawk IP on DI?
kenobi65 08-22-07, 10:35 AM	An interesting rumor that I heard was that Greyhawk references are not the property of WotC and that WotC are paying royalties on those references. If this is true, and WotC stoped paying those royalties, LG could be restarted without WotC. If that were true, than the actual holder of those copyrights would have to be credited in the legalese in LG documents, and it would say something like "Used by WotC / RPGA under license". Which it doesn't. My understanding was that Gary Gygax had fundamentally given the rights to Greyhawk over to TSR when he was running that company; when he lost control of TSR, he also lost control of that property.
heirodule 08-22-07, 10:41 AM	There always the "filed off serial numbers" way to go Living Dunfalcon The kingdom of Beolund, The wizard Leimenkainen, the evil lich-god Vance (heh), the god of madness Gaxgy, "the indifferent one", a God of Magic, the Dyr Nyv lake. The Temple of Uncleft Naughtyness, the racist Zule, the dark brown Blamange, the noble Aerodians.
kenobi65 08-22-07, 10:41 AM	I still think there is an interesting unexplored issue of what it means for an RPG publisher to publish material to be used to play a game. First: I am not a lawyer. Here's my understanding of the situation, based on what Legends of the Shining Jewel went through. (KarmaInferno, btw, also experienced that issue...) - When you, as a DM/writer are creating an adventure to run, you have the right to use any intellectual property in any game books you own, whether they're OGC or not. - You can even use those to run an adventure at a public venue, like a convention. Because you are the only one who actually "sees" the copyrighted material, you're OK. - But, when you write something using copyrighted material, and give it to someone else to run, then you are doing what is called "publishing", and, even if you aren't charging anything for it, you are *still* in violation of the copyright holder's copyright. Do people do things like this all the time anyway? Yes, and most of it's on a small scale. When the holder of the copyright (in this case, WotC), becomes aware of such activity, legally, they have to take steps to shut it down, or else they run the risk of losing their copyrights -- if it can be shown, in court, that they chose to not defend their copyright, then the copyright can be declared void.
heirodule 08-22-07, 10:47 AM	20 guys meeting on skype. Ok, guys, for year 1 of living newhawk, the first scenario will be blah blah blah (30 minutes of gabbing). They'll encounter 4 orcs, the trap 12 from Dungeonscape, and the OCG beast. Write up what I suggested on your own, and play it at cons in the month of June 2008. here's a map pdf with the encounter numbers I mentioned. [Annoying lawyer cartel disclaimer: i am not a lawyer]
KarmaInferno 08-22-07, 10:59 AM	Sharing duties running a home campaign is legal because both DMs are collaborating on creating a work and not sharing it with others. The legal issue arises when one author produces a work, and hands it to another person who was not involved with the writing. The Sparks Star Wars campaign kind of skirts the legal issue by having only their author team run their events. Every adventure has all their DMs listed on the title pages as authors. Thing is they have a large author/DM group. I do not know the legal status of Oerth Journal or Canonfire. you'd have to ask them what legal protections, if any, they have in place. When the holder of the copyright (in this case, WotC), becomes aware of such activity, legally, they have to take steps to shut it down, or else they run the risk of losing their copyrights -- if it can be shown, in court, that they chose to not defend their copyright, then the copyright can be declared void. Minor correction, it's the Trademarks they would be risking, not the Copyrights. Copyrights can't be lost that way. Most legal teams, however, usually prosecute for copyright violation if they're going after trademark violations anyhow. -karma
kenobi65 08-22-07, 11:12 AM	Minor correction, it's the Trademarks they would be risking, not the Copyrights. Copyrights can't be lost that way. Most legal teams, however, usually prosecute for copyright violation if they're going after trademark violations anyhow. Thanks for the correction. See, I really am not a lawyer. :D
heirodule 08-22-07, 11:16 AM	All hell would break loose if someone notices that an RPG game is a "performance" of a work, i reckon.
Mommy was an Orc 08-22-07, 11:30 AM	To address your proposal, there are 2 big things that work against a third-party Living Greyhawk campaign. The first of the two is there will not be a conversion guide from 3.5 to 4th Edition. This means that any attempt at conversion will be a colossal mess - even with a conversion guide from 2nd Edition to 3rd Edition, Living City's conversion basically was the death knell for that campaign. I'm not entirely certain why a conversion guide would be necessary - especially given how the conversion guide of 2nd Edition to 3rd edition was actually an example of how not to write a conversion guide and quite probably encouraged a colossal mess. He should have simply stated something along the lines of: Take your current XP and compare it to the Fighter chart. Figure out what level Fighter you'd be in 2.0 with that many XP. That's what level you are in 3.0. Instead, they came up with a system that allowed a 6th level party to end up with a 5th level Paladin and a 9th level Elf Wizard. With 3.0/3.5 all having unified XP charts, a 10th level character in 3.0/3.5 ought to be a 10th level character in 4.0 if it also has unified XP charts. He might not have the same exact same capabilities, but it shouldn't be that difficult. The limiting factor is that regardless of how accurate the conversion ends up being, a 10th level Wizard in 4.0 should be roughly as powerful as any other 10th level character. Of course, the legal issues are, I think, a huge problem, and I will play LFR once LG goes away. But conversion isn't a real issue unless 4.0 is so radically different from 3.0/3.5 that it isn't even recognizable as D&D.
kenobi65 08-22-07, 11:50 AM	20 guys meeting on skype. Ok, guys, for year 1 of living newhawk, the first scenario will be blah blah blah (30 minutes of gabbing). They'll encounter 4 orcs, the trap 12 from Dungeonscape, and the OCG beast. Write up what I suggested on your own, and play it at cons in the month of June 2008. here's a map pdf with the encounter numbers I mentioned. [Annoying lawyer cartel disclaimer: i am not a lawyer] At that point, you probably have a legitimate argument that all 20 of those guys are authors. But, some of the examples you gave earlier still count as "1 guy wrote something, and gave it to other people to run", which is what would get one into legal problems.
Madfox11 08-23-07, 08:39 AM	I'm not entirely certain why a conversion guide would be necessary - especially given how the conversion guide of 2nd Edition to 3rd edition was actually an example of how not to write a conversion guide and quite probably encouraged a colossal mess. He should have simply stated something along the lines of: Take your current XP and compare it to the Fighter chart. Figure out what level Fighter you'd be in 2.0 with that many XP. That's what level you are in 3.0. Yeah, but how do you convert a 4th level paladin/1st level fighter/1st level hospitaler/3rd level cavalier? ;) Or what about items, feats and other stuff that simply do not exist? Converting on the fly is relatively easy in a home group, but to do it fairly on a world-wide scale is virtually impossible. LC proved it, and even LG had some serious issues with the relatively easy conversion from 3.0 to 3.5. Besides copyright issues, I think the real problem will be finding the vollunteers, players and distribution channels to make this actually work outside a few locals. Many of the living systems currently available outside LG are only popular in a very specific region. Sometimes I get the feeling that people look too much at how things are in their direct region without every realizing how much things can differ. For example, people are saying Xen'drik is a flop regardless of what Chris says, but it is actually played just as much as LG around here just because a couple of strong DMs/table organizers really like the game. On the other hand, nobody ever touches Living Kalamar, and never heard of any of the other Living Campaigns and that includes Living Arcanis btw. The only ones who can tell anything based on real play numbers for Living Greyhawk, Living Kalamar, Xen'drik and Undermountain all over the world is the RPGA.
heirodule 08-23-07, 10:07 AM	keep your total level. Keep your race keep your stats. Now relevel your PC using 4th edition rules. Or just say go ahead and change everything, keeping your current level. Equipment might be an issue. Just set up GP guidelines and let them buy what they want. the 3.0 -> 3.5 conversion was almost that.
Mommy was an Orc 08-23-07, 10:58 AM	Yeah, but how do you convert a 4th level paladin/1st level fighter/1st level hospitaler/3rd level cavalier? ;) Or what about items, feats and other stuff that simply do not exist? Converting on the fly is relatively easy in a home group, but to do it fairly on a world-wide scale is virtually impossible. LC proved it, and even LG had some serious issues with the relatively easy conversion from 3.0 to 3.5. As I noted, the conversion guide from 2.0 to 3.0 was literally horrid. Had I been playing LC at the time, I would have made a very forceful case to throw it out. Had I been successful at doing that, I suspect Living City might have had a better chance of surviving the transition. The person writing it took a straightforward and simple task and actually made it hard to understand. A Paladin in 2.0 was a little more powerful than the equivalent level Fighter in 2.0, and therefore had to spend more XP to level. In 3.0, in theory, they were the equivalent, so a Paladin and Fighter with the same XP in 2.0 should be the same level in 3.0. This is especially relevant as multiclassed characters and dual-classed characters were very powerful at certain points in 2.0 and weak in others. Your build is an 9th level character = 9th level character. Attempt to make it look as close as possible to fit your idea of your character. Items = convert to gold without using 50%, buy closest equivalent items in 4.0. If the gold cost of items changes significantly, simply take your gold, divide by the expected wealth of a character of your level in 3.5, multiply by the expected wealth of a character of your level in 4.0. So as an example, let's say your Paladin Cavalier has 30000 gold, the expected wealth of a 3.5 character is 36000, and the expected wealth of a 4.0 character is 30000. You'd now have 25000 gold(30000/36000*30000) I kept the numbers simple for explanation purposes, but that's simply because I don't know the actual numbers for 4.0. If those were the actual numbers, I'd simply tell you to divide your gold by 1.2 if you're a 9th level character. Crafters might be a bit more complicated, but I don't think they're going to be overwhelmingly so. At worst, you could just say to halve the value of any crafted item when doing the gold conversion as crafting is going to work differently, then apply the 4.0 rules for crafting.
Morgen 08-23-07, 09:55 PM	So it's said, there honestly is nothing stopping you from creating some kind of regional group of people in your area that writes and plays D&D in exactly the same way as Living Greyhawk, that keeps you from continuing to use the 3.5 rules system, or from inviting large groups of people to join in your adventures. You would be bared from making a profit off of the Greyhawk name as well as publishing modules professionally. But you could just create your own large scale campaign using the world. You can't really get sued for playing D&D, otherwise there is an inherent flaw in selling role playing games to people. You just can't call it Living Greyhawk.
KarmaInferno 08-24-07, 02:59 AM	People keep not reading the whole thread before posting. It is a common misconception that you need to make a profit off something for it to be a violation. This, as has been explained multiple times on multiple threads here over the past week, is just not true. You can not legally distribute someone else's trademarked and copyrighted properties without their permission. Period. And writing a Greyhawk adventure and then handing it to someone else? That's distribution. Dosen't matter if you sold it or are giving it away. You could make a OGL-compliant 3.5 living campaign and not use any Greyhawk names or places or people, but that wouldn't be Greyhawk, would it? -karma
Madfox11 08-24-07, 04:26 AM	There was such an open ended conversion in LG from 3.0 to 3.5. It caused a lot of trouble, and that was for relatively minor changes. You are kidding yourself if you think that a high level character can be converted without a hitch in a completely new system where (a) the players do not know the rules inside out and (b) many of the unique options for higher level characters have not yet been designed. Just ask the people about the errors they made with their first characters in LG to get an idea on (a). I am not saying a conversion is impossible, just that it is much more trouble than it is worth. If you don't belief me, all we can do is to accept we disagree. Just remember that my opinion is the general opinion among the higher campaign management so that you know at least one of the reasons to end LG.
Mommy was an Orc 08-24-07, 06:04 PM	There was such an open ended conversion in LG from 3.0 to 3.5. It caused a lot of trouble, and that was for relatively minor changes. You are kidding yourself if you think that a high level character can be converted without a hitch in a completely new system where (a) the players do not know the rules inside out and (b) many of the unique options for higher level characters have not yet been designed. Just ask the people about the errors they made with their first characters in LG to get an idea on (a). I am not saying a conversion is impossible, just that it is much more trouble than it is worth. If you don't belief me, all we can do is to accept we disagree. Just remember that my opinion is the general opinion among the higher campaign management so that you know at least one of the reasons to end LG. I really don't think it is that difficult. In each conversion, there seem to have been problems with how it was done - 2.0->3.0 had a horrible conversion document. 3.0->3.5 had the assumption that you didn't need support to convert a character. Those are both things one shouldn't be doing. And actually, the switch to 4.0 makes it easier to convert, provided you do the following: Release only low APL 4.0 mods in 2008(this is almost certain to happen for LFR anyway) - there's a benefit even if LFR wasn't coming out and just LG was - it allows writers to understand the system's quirks, too. Put someone(s) in charge of helping people out with conversion and put a link to a board where they can be talked to(say along the lines of the living greyhawk character discussion board...) Make a simple, easy to understand conversion document that doesn't involve more complicated math than 'divide by x' - you're a 9th level character right now, you're a 9th level character afterwards, too. Your 9th level character really shouldn't have a problem with conversion, because you're not going to be able to play him until mid-2009, a year after 4.0 comes out. You ought to understand how to duplicate him by then, and if you don't, it isn't the fault of the campaign.
RanielK 08-24-07, 06:12 PM	An interesting rumor that I heard was that Greyhawk references are not the property of WotC and that WotC are paying royalties on those references. If this is true, and WotC stoped paying those royalties, LG could be restarted without WotC. That said. If LG does restart, don't convert characters. Start everyone fresh at 1st level with 4.0 ruleset. -Swiftbrook Yes, then you'ld have to track down who they were paying royalties to and pay that person or risk the same IP violation lawsuit. And the reason WoTC may not renew would be the cost. If they can't pay it, how are you going to pay it?:confused:
Mommy was an Orc 08-24-07, 09:35 PM	I really don't think it is that difficult. In each conversion, there seem to have been problems with how it was done - 2.0->3.0 had a horrible conversion document. 3.0->3.5 had the assumption that you didn't need support to convert a character. I'd like to make it clear here - I'm reasonably excited by 4.0 and LFR. I can see how they might screw it up, but I'm hopeful they won't. I just don't see conversion as a real issue. I see knocking down regions to say 12 or so as a real issue as that directly influences the quality of the product - having 6 Circle members review potentially 18 mods a year is a lot different than having them review 50 mods a year. Heck, I'd probably kill LG to be able to deal with the regional issues and use the new edition as the excuse.
Madfox11 08-27-07, 03:13 AM	A restart of LG is also a huge amount of work since you have to update the setting, preferably taking everything that changed over the past 8 years into account and putting it on paper. It is certainly possible, but it is one of many reasons that prevented a restart.
JamesMaissen 08-27-07, 06:09 AM	A restart of LG is also a huge amount of work since you have to update the setting, preferably taking everything that changed over the past 8 years into account and putting it on paper. It is certainly possible, but it is one of many reasons that prevented a restart. I don't quite follow this.. how is scrapping everything that the triads, circles, authors and other volunteers have done a good thing here? Conversion of characters from 3.5 to 4.0 might be more trouble than it's worth, but I figure if you poll the people with those characters I'd think that even contrary gamers would mostly side with the 'it's worth it rather than just chuck it'. But even if you do scrap everyone's characters.. why scrap the setting? For all that's gone into everyone's characters.. more has gone into the setting. Why give up on it? What would have to be done to continue things as they are already laid out? Instead of closing LG, simply having everyone 'forcibly' retire as they are would be all that would need to be done. Modules would start with low level spreads just as they would in a completely new setting, but you would still have the old frame and all the work that has gone into it intact. Triads could include 'retired' characters as they desired much like some regions already did with characters that retired by leveling. This doesn't track for me. I assumed that LG being ended was by fiat from the RPGA (or higher).. am I incorrect? -James
Madfox11 08-28-07, 03:31 AM	This doesn't track for me. I assumed that LG being ended was by fiat from the RPGA (or higher).. am I incorrect? It is. Doesn't mean we can give you some of the arguments behind the decision (and there more some of which that cannot be shared with the public or even us the Circle).
JamesMaissen 08-28-07, 06:37 AM	It is. Doesn't mean we can give you some of the arguments behind the decision (and there more some of which that cannot be shared with the public or even us the Circle). So what can you say? As it stands the message is basically the RPGA doesn't care about it's players and love it or leave it.. Left with just that, I'll leave it and go to play and volunteer for systems that treat players as if they are desired rather than incidental... Thank you and good day, James
Britt 08-28-07, 07:45 AM	So what can you say? As it stands the message is basically the RPGA doesn't care about it's players and love it or leave it.. Left with just that, I'll leave it and go to play and volunteer for systems that treat players as if they are desired rather than incidental... Thank you and good day, James No offense, but that is not the message; that is merely what some people that are upset about LG ending keep saying the message is. What exactly did the RPGA do that shows it doesn't care about players? From what I can tell, it's basically just that LG is ending. Is there something other than the end of LG that makes the RPGA not care about its players? If not, why does a disagreement between a subset of players and the RPGA administration mean that the RPGA does not care about "its players"? The RPGA admin thinks that ending LG and starting a new Living campaign is in the best interests of the RPGA, which is fundamentally a group of players. Sure, it might not be in your best interests, but that doesn't mean it's not in the majority's best interests, or that the RPGA doesn't care. Even if the RPGA were wrong about what was best for the majority, that still doesn't mean that the RPGA doesn't care. Attributing some cold, malicious attitude to the RPGA does not make your desires to keep LG more reasonable.
JamesMaissen 08-28-07, 09:10 AM	The RPGA admin thinks that ending LG and starting a new Living campaign is in the best interests of the RPGA Attributing some cold, malicious attitude to the RPGA does not make your desires to keep LG more reasonable. So, you *want* LG to end? Not, have you made peace with it. Not have you accepted it. But do you want it to happen? If that's really the case, then why wait for this 4th edition announcement and the like to do it then? Why, instead of waiting for WOTC, the RPGA, or whomever to do it, why not have already planned to end it from the start? I'm sorry but to me LG seems like it was a very viable campaign and people were happy with it. Am I wrong? -James
The_Jester 08-28-07, 09:21 AM	So, you *want* LG to end? Not, have you made peace with it. Not have you accepted it. But do you want it to happen? Nobody (nobody!) still playing or volunteering WANTS it to end. Period. But it's still ending, so we deal. I'm sorry but to me LG seems like it was a very viable campaign and people were happy with it. Am I wrong? Nope. But that's not why its ending.
Mommy was an Orc 08-28-07, 11:16 AM	I'm sorry but to me LG seems like it was a very viable campaign and people were happy with it. Am I wrong? -James But is LG the most viable campaign given limited resources? No matter how much I dislike the flavor of FR, I'm more interested in quality of mods. Right now, LG churns out way too many regionals(8 potential regionals * 5 regions per metaregion = 40 per metaregion - and HQ has to review them) - I don't know about you, but when I went to GenCon this year, there weren't any mods that I was excited to judge from my area during Open Fiesta. None. Even the best ones were either weird tactical encounters or overly investigative that would take 4 hours to run. There just wasn't a fun, straightforward mod that showed off the region or metaregion where each encounter contributed to the final one. And with many of the mods, that was a problem with editing and review, not with the basic idea. And don't get me started about how I've fought more Quels and Kaorti than Hobgoblins - I should be able to travel to a different region and not fight the same strange encounters. Just compare Ohio with New York City or Los Angeles - Ohio has unbelievable play opportunities, where two of the largest cities in the U.S. are very limited. Sure, these are things that could be fixed. But is the LG player base going to accept losing half their regions or only getting half the regional mods per region(even if they were given better access to outside regionals in return?) - and this appears to be exactly what LR is going to do - there would probably be the same exact outraged statements, people threatening to leave, etc... I dislike Forgotten Realm's flavor intensely - but I'll deal with it if I still get to play my 20 regionals a year and the quality of the individual mods has improved greatly. And there is no reason I shouldn't get to play the same number of regionals if they set it up properly. They could screw it up. That doesn't mean they will.
Drezden 08-28-07, 12:13 PM	I think you are really trying to marginalize the situation by saying the disagreement is between the RPGA and a "subset of players." I think the vast majority of LG players do not want the campaign to end and do not agree with the RPGA's decision. It is just many of them feel it is futile to object to it. While I guess the RPGA may care about their players, they certaintly do not care enough about their players' opinions. If they did they would not be cancelling the most popular living campaign ever at a time that it is still a vibrant campaign with increasing play numbers. Daren No offense, but that is not the message; that is merely what some people that are upset about LG ending keep saying the message is. What exactly did the RPGA do that shows it doesn't care about players? From what I can tell, it's basically just that LG is ending. Is there something other than the end of LG that makes the RPGA not care about its players? If not, why does a disagreement between a subset of players and the RPGA administration mean that the RPGA does not care about "its players"? The RPGA admin thinks that ending LG and starting a new Living campaign is in the best interests of the RPGA, which is fundamentally a group of players. Sure, it might not be in your best interests, but that doesn't mean it's not in the majority's best interests, or that the RPGA doesn't care. Even if the RPGA were wrong about what was best for the majority, that still doesn't mean that the RPGA doesn't care. Attributing some cold, malicious attitude to the RPGA does not make your desires to keep LG more reasonable.
CrystalBlue 08-28-07, 12:45 PM	Please don't rag on the admins of this campaign any more then you have. It's not their fault that we're ending a Living campaign. In fact, pointing blame is only going to make you, one person, feel better about this situation. The circle has done a great job of running the campaign, setting up the modules, and giving us a good 8 year run. They should not be talked to like this. They are trying their best, getting no compensation for their efforts except getting thanks from us. And honestly, I don't hear much thanks from players at all. Everyone seems to view the circle as uppity, pompus jerks that pass out rules and proclimations like a king. When in reality, these people are volenteers that just want us to have a great time gaming. They made the campaign great to play, and they'll make the ending great as well. And I'm hoping that some of them continue to serve on what will be the circle of LR. But you will not speak badly about them around here. If you want to point anger at someone, find other people to do that to. Sorry if I seem a little mad about this, but I don't really like personal attacks, esspecially when it's centered on people that don't deserve it.
Drezden 08-28-07, 01:20 PM	Maybe you should re-read my post. I wasn't raggin on Britt or the Circle; I wasn't blaming them; I didn't personally attack him or anyone in the Circle. I was expressing my well-supported opinion that the RPGA - note no mention of the Circle - disregarded the opinions of the vast majority of Living Greyahawk players by cancelling the campaign. I also thought Britt was trying to marginalize this fact. Perhaps you were confusing my critique of Britt's opinion with a "personal attack." Again, this is not the case - as any fair reading of my post demonstrates. Thanks, Daren ________ If you want to try and save LG, come discuss it at: lets_save_lg yahoo group Please don't rag on the admins of this campaign any more then you have. It's not their fault that we're ending a Living campaign. In fact, pointing blame is only going to make you, one person, feel better about this situation. The circle has done a great job of running the campaign, setting up the modules, and giving us a good 8 year run. They should not be talked to like this. They are trying their best, getting no compensation for their efforts except getting thanks from us. And honestly, I don't hear much thanks from players at all. Everyone seems to view the circle as uppity, pompus jerks that pass out rules and proclimations like a king. When in reality, these people are volenteers that just want us to have a great time gaming. They made the campaign great to play, and they'll make the ending great as well. And I'm hoping that some of them continue to serve on what will be the circle of LR. But you will not speak badly about them around here. If you want to point anger at someone, find other people to do that to. Sorry if I seem a little mad about this, but I don't really like personal attacks, esspecially when it's centered on people that don't deserve it.
Genghis Cohen 08-28-07, 02:25 PM	No offense, but that is not the message; that is merely what some people that are upset about LG ending keep saying the message is. What exactly did the RPGA do that shows it doesn't care about players? From what I can tell, it's basically just that LG is ending. Is there something other than the end of LG that makes the RPGA not care about its players? If not, why does a disagreement between a subset of players and the RPGA administration mean that the RPGA does not care about "its players"? The RPGA admin thinks that ending LG and starting a new Living campaign is in the best interests of the RPGA, which is fundamentally a group of players. Sure, it might not be in your best interests, but that doesn't mean it's not in the majority's best interests, or that the RPGA doesn't care. Even if the RPGA were wrong about what was best for the majority, that still doesn't mean that the RPGA doesn't care. Attributing some cold, malicious attitude to the RPGA does not make your desires to keep LG more reasonable.The issue is not if the RPGA has a "cold, malicious attitude." The larger issue is that the RPGA, like the rest of WotC: 1) Is horrendous at managing expectations. 2) Doesn't communicate with their customers in a consistent and meaningful way. This will become more important as the paradigm for their business model shifts such that they become the direct seller of services (DI) to their customer base. A perfect example of this is the end of LG. They're doing this because this is in the best interests of the players? How do they know this? Did they ask us? All I saw is that they dictated to us what is best for us. That's perfectly fine when dealing with 8 year old children. Dictating client needs doesn't cut it when dealing with a group of educated adults. WotC has a dismissive attitude towards its core customer base. Its not from a malicious attitude. Its probably rooted in a corporate culture that is effectively a monopoly that is neither accountable to its customers, nor to its parent company that is thousands of miles away.
Mithreinmaethor 08-28-07, 05:27 PM	Come on people Greyhawk is dead. I have a feeling like a lot of things in this world it was killed off by lawyers in a room somewhere. Do I have proof this is so..No. But there might be people that can find out maybe. This goes much deeper than just releasing a new edition. I would not at all be surprised if we dont see Greyhawk released by its original creator soon after 4.0 hits the shelves. It wouldnt be a d20 game but Gygax already has his own system out there anyhow. Its all just a gut feeling is all.
Sieylianna 08-28-07, 06:31 PM	No offense, but that is not the message; that is merely what some people that are upset about LG ending keep saying the message is. What exactly did the RPGA do that shows it doesn't care about players? From what I can tell, it's basically just that LG is ending. Is there something other than the end of LG that makes the RPGA not care about its players? I'm not as upset as most people because I knew this was going to happen a month ahead of time. I do think the RPGA has done a poor job of winding down LG. What would it have hurt to allow LG to run all next year under 3.5 rules? You don't shaft the end of year cons and give the triads more time and modules to wrap things up. I will be shocked if there are a dozen LFR modules out next year. The books aren't completely released until August and that doesn't leave a lot of room to get modules written and released in 2008 Letting LG finish the year as normal wouldn't have had a significant impact on LFR play. It would have given the players something to new to play after Origins, when there are only going to be a handful of LFR modules. Ed
clannagh 08-28-07, 07:23 PM	But is LG the most viable campaign given limited resources? No matter how much I dislike the flavor of FR, I'm more interested in quality of mods. Right now, LG churns out way too many regionals(8 potential regionals * 5 regions per metaregion = 40 per metaregion - and HQ has to review them) - I don't know about you, but when I went to GenCon this year, there weren't any mods that I was excited to judge from my area during Open Fiesta. None. Even the best ones were either weird tactical encounters or overly investigative that would take 4 hours to run. There just wasn't a fun, straightforward mod that showed off the region or metaregion where each encounter contributed to the final one. And with many of the mods, that was a problem with editing and review, not with the basic idea. Actually Ratik i its first year and a half of existance has produced some amazingly fun straightforward mods that showed off the region. Now that will partly be an artifact of it being a new region and LR will have this advantage as well. On the down side it is only now after nearly two years that the region flavor is starting to develop (despite a huge effort at startup by the new triad to research and publish existing background and a lot of discussion online) and we only finally now are actually getting a meaningful choice of meta-orgs. I am not the only ratikan who is not inclined to "do it all over again". My prediction for those of you who DO go across is the fresh new regions will be fun and exciting to play but will lack any serious depth until maybe 2010 or so after which things should really kick in.
Lightblade 08-28-07, 07:47 PM	My main character is a Gnome Bard. There's a chance that the basic 4th edition rules will support neither. keep your total level. Keep your race keep your stats. Now relevel your PC using 4th edition rules. Or just say go ahead and change everything, keeping your current level. Equipment might be an issue. Just set up GP guidelines and let them buy what they want. the 3.0 -> 3.5 conversion was almost that.
clannagh 08-28-07, 08:49 PM	My main character is a Gnome Bard. There's a chance that the basic 4th edition rules will support neither. My Ratik primary WAS a Gnome Paladin until she Divine Favored herself into oblivion at a recent conference ( I suppose doing 300 damage over 4 rounds at APL 6 did attract the attention of the bad guys). She then rolled a 2 on her "reincarnate or raise" roll (1 or 2 reincarnate, 4 to 6 raise) and came back a wood elf. I blame the kobolds ....
Madfox11 08-29-07, 04:35 AM	What would it have hurt to allow LG to run all next year under 3.5 rules? You don't shaft the end of year cons and give the triads more time and modules to wrap things up. I will be shocked if there are a dozen LFR modules out next year. The books aren't completely released until August and that doesn't leave a lot of room to get modules written and released in 2008 All 2007 and 2008 LG scenarios are available for order and play until the end of 2008. Granted, these don't include new scenarios, but with up to 6 new parts last year they actually get the amount of adventures generally reserved for 3Q. As a player and Circle member I am sad to see the campaign end. I also realize there are several very strong arguments on why the campaign is ended and why to start a new campaign in the FR. Some of those arguments are bussiness related, others have to do with the players and vollunteer organizers behind the campaign. The issue is not if the RPGA has a "cold, malicious attitude." The larger issue is that the RPGA, like the rest of WotC: 1) Is horrendous at managing expectations. 2) Doesn't communicate with their customers in a consistent and meaningful way. The RPGA has been mentioning for years that LG in its current form was causing problems. It also has never said LG would last forever (no D&D campaign does), and that if it would end they would tell 1 year ahead. At most you can argue that by adding LG reward cards and extending play opportunities this year the hinted those problems were overcome. In my mind though that is a rather weird twist of actions to help players wishes... Pieter Sleijpen, who just read an interesting article in the Scientific American about the fact that for people to think something is a general opinion it doesn't matter if dozen people say the same thing or one person says it a dozen times...
Reneshat 09-02-07, 05:40 AM	A perfect example of this is the end of LG. They're doing this because this is in the best interests of the players? How do they know this? Did they ask us? All I saw is that they dictated to us what is best for us. That's perfectly fine when dealing with 8 year old children. Dictating client needs doesn't cut it when dealing with a group of educated adults. Maybe I read all of the announcements wrong, but I don't remember WotC ever dictating to us what was "best" for us. I simply remember them saying that a new edition was coming out, support for the old edition was not going to exist, and a service they provided for the old edition was going to stop, and be replaced with service for the new edition. This doesn't seem to me like it was ever discussed what is "best" for us. It was a business decision, and was explained to us as such. Many of the players are acting as if they were 8 years old and the company wants to take away their toy. However, it is the players that draw most of the comparisons to dealing with children, not the company. If you want a fully "grown-up" equivalent to this, when has Microsoft ever asked us whether we needed a new windows? When has Microsoft ever supported services specifically designed to draw users to out dated programs, programs they no longer support? Why would you expect WotC to act in any way differently with a service they provide than other companies act with services. I am sorry if I seem particularly mean spirited or snarky in this post, but I have been lurking for weeks, and am sick and tired of people acting as if WotC was required to ask their permission before it decided to cancel a service it provided. Yes, you are upset, we are aware of that, however it in no way, shape, or form reflects WotC's view or responsibility to you. All of the Wendy's in St. Louis closed down a few months ago. That really sucks. I hate that. I wish there were Wendy's because it was my favorite fast food restaurant. Does this mean the owner of those Wendy's betrayed me? Should he have listened to my cries of outrage and kept them open? OF COURSE NOT!!! There is really no way that this situation is different. This thread is rather symptomatic of why I am annoyed. The utter stupidity of the idea of this thread of mind boggling. Do you have any idea the massive amount of support, work and organization that would go into maintaining LG without corporate support? How about the blatant infringement of copyright law that an underground LG would be? Do you think you would be able to maintain this campaign without the company that birthed the rules, setting, and campaign? As far as all the complaints about the horrible suddenness of the closing of the campaign, try reading the posts of some of the Circle or Triad members on here. I was having discussions well over a year ago with fellow Greyhawkers about 4ed being inevitable and the end of LG. The reason why we were talking about this, was because of the time line assigned to story lines, and the timing of WotC in the past. As it is, they gave us over a year left on modules when they announced it for certain. Also the Circle and Triads have been working hard, listening to suggestions, and doing an amazing job in trying to allow everyone maximum LG fun and opportunities, and give us a memorable and worthy ending to the campaign. Chris Tulach has been awesome in giving us information, and keeping us informed about what is going on, and the future of the RPGA. I realize little of what I said related to Genghis Cohen's comments and complaints. I have been more or less biting my tongue for weeks, and deciding to vent, ranted a good deal more than I initially intended to. However all the complainers are just getting to be too much. If the death of LG and the move to 4ed upsets you so much, stop gaming. If you really want LG that bad, run over to Troll Lord Games and start petitioning Gary. Who knows, maybe he'll listen better than those "mean WotC guys." Heck, maybe Living Zagyg would be a blast. I just don't like the idea of trying to run a living campaign with the watchful gaze of Gygax staring over my shoulder.
Genghis Cohen 09-02-07, 09:20 PM	Maybe I read all of the announcements wrong, but I don't remember WotC ever dictating to us what was "best" for us. I simply remember them saying that a new edition was coming out, support for the old edition was not going to exist, and a service they provided for the old edition was going to stop, and be replaced with service for the new edition. This doesn't seem to me like it was ever discussed what is "best" for us.D&D is a monopoly. They have the luxury of not communicating with their customers.It was a business decision, and was explained to us as such.All decisions made by businesses are business decisions. Not all business decisions are rational, and not all are executed with the long term interests of that company. They "explained" their business decision with no metrics, no external analysis, etc. In short, they never explained their busiiness decision to their customers with any meaningful detail. This is their right, but it should not surprise them that their deliberately truncated communications with their clients fosters suspicion and mistrust. Many of the players are acting as if they were 8 years old and the company wants to take away their toy. However, it is the players that draw most of the comparisons to dealing with children, not the company.Huh? Who was comparing the company with children? I was at GenCon for the "big announcement" where I found their tone to be condescending and patronizing. I also found the heavy handed approach to the termination of a very popular customer service to either exhibit a lack of respect for the LG community, or a decision making process that, yes, treats their consumers like children. Most of Hasbro's product lines only have to satisfy consumer needs for a few years. D&D is different. Its a long term relationship. If you want a fully "grown-up" equivalent to this, when has Microsoft ever asked us whether we needed a new windows?That's not a "grown-up" comparison, but it is very appropriate. Microsoft is a monopoly with horrendous quality control issues.When has Microsoft ever supported services specifically designed to draw users to out dated programs, programs they no longer support? Why would you expect WotC to act in any way differently with a service they provide than other companies act with services. I would expect WotC to act differently because they are in a completely different industry, however because they are a monopoly, they can ignore the fact that they are a service provider when its convenient to do so. In a competitive environment, service providers care about what their customers think or they go out of business. I am sorry if I seem particularly mean spirited or snarky in this post, but I have been lurking for weeks, and am sick and tired of people acting as if WotC was required to ask their permission before it decided to cancel a service it provided.Actually, if they were in a competitive environment, they would have broached the topic with their customers first. They would have attempted to manage expectations. They did no such thing.Yes, you are upset, we are aware of that, however it in no way, shape, or form reflects WotC's view or responsibility to you.This is the mindset of a government bureaucracy or a monopolistic private enterprise. Its patronizing (hey, a reoccurring theme!) and needlessly dismissive. All of the Wendy's in St. Louis closed down a few months ago. That really sucks. I hate that. I wish there were Wendy's because it was my favorite fast food restaurant. Does this mean the owner of those Wendy's betrayed me? Should he have listened to my cries of outrage and kept them open? OF COURSE NOT!!! There is really no way that this situation is different.That's a completely meaningless comparison without any supplied data to explain why all of the Wendy's in St. Louis closed. This thread is rather symptomatic of why I am annoyed. The utter stupidity of the idea of this thread of mind boggling. Do you have any idea the massive amount of support, work and organization that would go into maintaining LG without corporate support? How about the blatant infringement of copyright law that an underground LG would be? Do you think you would be able to maintain this campaign without the company that birthed the rules, setting, and campaign?I don't like the idea of a non-RPGA LG either, but labeling ways to save something that people love as stupid is flat out wrong. As far as all the complaints about the horrible suddenness of the closing of the campaign, try reading the posts of some of the Circle or Triad members on here. I was having discussions well over a year ago with fellow Greyhawkers about 4ed being inevitable and the end of LG. The reason why we were talking about this, was because of the time line assigned to story lines, and the timing of WotC in the past.4E was inevitable. Terminating LG was not. The decision to end LG was not even made until this summer.As it is, they gave us over a year left on modules when they announced it for certain. Also the Circle and Triads have been working hard, listening to suggestions, and doing an amazing job in trying to allow everyone maximum LG fun and opportunities, and give us a memorable and worthy ending to the campaign. Chris Tulach has been awesome in giving us information, and keeping us informed about what is going on, and the future of the RPGA.I agree that the Circle and RPGA has given the campaign far more than anyone could reasonably expect in light of the end of the campaign, but also don't forget what was lost. That final 3 year story arc has been truncated to 2-1/2 years. The 2008 mods will retire in 2008, rather than in 2009 which is standard for the RPGA. Finally, LG is the most successful living campaign ever. Unlimited TUs does seem to keep the dissenting customer base quiet. I realize little of what I said related to Genghis Cohen's comments and complaints. I have been more or less biting my tongue for weeks, and deciding to vent, ranted a good deal more than I initially intended to. However all the complainers are just getting to be too much. If the death of LG and the move to 4ed upsets you so much, stop gaming. If you really want LG that bad, run over to Troll Lord Games and start petitioning Gary. Who knows, maybe he'll listen better than those "mean WotC guys." Heck, maybe Living Zagyg would be a blast. I just don't like the idea of trying to run a living campaign with the watchful gaze of Gygax staring over my shoulder.Hey, we all have the need to vent from time to time. Come to the city and I'll run a Keoland mod for you.
control freak 09-02-07, 10:11 PM	Genghis Cohen is an example of a democratc attitude (not that u absolutely are but it is thier attitude) that monopolys are bad and the WoTC doesnt care about thier bace because you are all expendable and Reneshat is the exact opposite he takes the republican (not that u absolutely are but it is thier attitude) position that "its free market theres nothing you can do about it" the truth is some where in the middle it sucks for us its good for them however lawyers exist
_metz_ 09-03-07, 12:12 AM	Genghis Cohen is an example of a democratc attitude (not that u absolutely are but it is thier attitude) that monopolys are bad and the WoTC doesnt care about thier bace because you are all expendable and Reneshat is the exact opposite he takes the republican (not that u absolutely are but it is thier attitude) position that "its free market theres nothing you can do about it" the truth is some where in the middle it sucks for us its good for them however lawyers exist Thats not the inherent beliefs of either in my opinion, and I think you are over simplifying stuff way too much. However I am an Australian and may be wrong. (My mate going on exchange to the US was asked by a friends wealthy industrialist father if he was republican, which really baffled us, as its a political ideology tied to the US...)
Reneshat 09-03-07, 01:22 AM	D&D is a monopoly. They have the luxury of not communicating with their customers.All decisions made by businesses are business decisions. Not all business decisions are rational, and not all are executed with the long term interests of that company. They "explained" their business decision with no metrics, no external analysis, etc. In short, they never explained their busiiness decision to their customers with any meaningful detail. This is their right, but it should not surprise them that their deliberately truncated communications with their clients fosters suspicion and mistrust.Huh? Who was comparing the company with children? I was at GenCon for the "big announcement" where I found their tone to be condescending and patronizing. I also found the heavy handed approach to the termination of a very popular customer service to either exhibit a lack of respect for the LG community, or a decision making process that, yes, treats their consumers like children. Most of Hasbro's product lines only have to satisfy consumer needs for a few years. D&D is different. Its a long term relationship. That's not a "grown-up" comparison, but it is very appropriate. Microsoft is a monopoly with horrendous quality control issues. I would expect WotC to act differently because they are in a completely different industry, however because they are a monopoly, they can ignore the fact that they are a service provider when its convenient to do so. In a competitive environment, service providers care about what their customers think or they go out of business. Actually, if they were in a competitive environment, they would have broached the topic with their customers first. They would have attempted to manage expectations. They did no such thing.This is the mindset of a government bureaucracy or a monopolistic private enterprise. Its patronizing (hey, a reoccurring theme!) and needlessly dismissive. That's a completely meaningless comparison without any supplied data to explain why all of the Wendy's in St. Louis closed. I don't like the idea of a non-RPGA LG either, but labeling ways to save something that people love as stupid is flat out wrong. 4E was inevitable. Terminating LG was not. The decision to end LG was not even made until this summer.I agree that the Circle and RPGA has given the campaign far more than anyone could reasonably expect in light of the end of the campaign, but also don't forget what was lost. That final 3 year story arc has been truncated to 2-1/2 years. The 2008 mods will retire in 2008, rather than in 2009 which is standard for the RPGA. Finally, LG is the most successful living campaign ever. Unlimited TUs does seem to keep the dissenting customer base quiet. Hey, we all have the need to vent from time to time. Come to the city and I'll run a Keoland mod for you. Your post was well thought out, well argued, and almost entirely right (I still think the idea of trying to run LG apart form WotC is stupid, sorry.:D ) WotC is effectively a monopoly (if not technically one) just like Microsoft, hence my using Microsoft as the example. We don't know exactly what went on in the financial discussions that led to the creation of 4ed. My guess is they were having problems selling most of the later splat books because people had as many Prestige Classes, feats, and rules as they needed, and they were grasping for straws with a lot of the most recent ones anyway. Unfortunately, I don't think the current hobby is large enough to allow them to continue making money on a purely campaign focus basis (as I'm sure they learned with lackluster sales of Eberron products.) A new edition allows them to effectively reprint all the current material they have out revamped, and sell it to us. Personally I would like, and would buy more adventures offered for sale, even conversions of old modules that I could convert myself (Liberation of Geoff: Against the Giants for an example.) This is where the elimination of Living Greyhawk comes in. 4ed is effectively unconvertible from 3.5. So any Living campaign moving to the new edition, would need to start over with brand new characters. This would not work well with Greyhawk, because of the current high level characters out there, and the utter irritation of not being able to play the character you were playing in this region for years because of the rules change. Besides, if they do a reboot anyway, moving the setting to the Forgotten Realms also has the increased opportunity of bringing in the people that play the Bioware games, and the Drizzt fanboys. They also probably feel that it doesn't matter how happy the LGers are about the end of Living Greyhawk, we will play whatever living campaign in available (only partially true.) If they kept Living Greyhawk around as a 3.5 game, we would have no reason to move, and subsequently, no reason to buy all the shiny new books they are printing. So they get rid of LG, move the new game to a region where they could pick up a new demographic, and plan on all of us trotting along with them. For this reason, most of the people are saying they are going to either stop playing, or buy the minimum number of books necessary (only the PHB). Unfortunately most of us will probably eventually break down, and start playing the new campaign, and soon our shelves will be filled with the same ridiculous number of books we accrued for 3ed and 3.5. I'm sure they realize this. Many have complained that this is going to cost them money, as they have to buy the new books. Yes, and that is the point. At the end of the day, WotC is trying to take your money. They offer a product in exchange, but their goal is your pocketbook. Costing you money, is what they are trying to do. That is the reason I used the seemingly incomparable Wendy's analogy. Whatever the reason for the Wendy's closing, it was most certainly the bottom line. Same for WotC and the elimination of LG. Their goal is the bottom line. I apologize for how rude my last post was, but it was the end of a long and irritating night at work, and I had been reading pages of what was a lot of whining. As I stated before, most of my comment weren't actually directed at you, you just happened to be the last one to say anything. While I'm not sure I agree with the Democrat/Republican analogy, but I'm not sure I disagree with it either. I tend to be cynical and fatalistic, so I expect corporations to act in their own best interests without regard to others, just as I expect people to do. I fatalistically accept this as human nature, and improperly equate this acceptance with maturity. So when someone else gets upset over what I see as human nature (or business nature in this sense) I get irritated by what I see as immaturity (whether it has anything to do with it in actuality or not.) I hope that explains where I am coming from a little bit better.
Haro 09-03-07, 08:25 AM	D&D a monopoly? I've managed not to burst into flames at most of the horse puckey being served up in this thread but that one wins the prize. D&D as a brand has about 50% of the pen and paper rpg market to my understanding. That's a long way from a monopoly and points to many viable alternatives in the market. Some people prefer the taste of Pepsi after all. As Madfox mentioned earlier, for some to believe anything is a general opinion, one person could comment 12 times, rather than 12 people commenting once. Perhaps if some myths weren't being perpetuated by the few, the community as a whole could more easily become informed about the the game. IMHO, that is.
UMiskatonic 09-03-07, 11:32 AM	Ah, but what 50% of the market does D&D have? The visible half. Yes, there are people playing a wide variety of games out there. Hero, gurps, white wolf, nobilis, shadowrun, etc. However, I have yet to go to a local con, and see four slots of Paranoia on the schedule. I do see D&D at cons, and I do know where to find 100+ D&D players in my area. That's an important distinction. I'd really like to play a burning wheel campaign, but the last local post on their forum was from 2002.
Haro 09-04-07, 01:05 AM	Ah, but what 50% of the market does D&D have? The visible half. So, do you think the RPGA have anything to do with that? Screw the RPGA, let's do it ourselves indeed.
mark1978 09-04-07, 03:45 AM	No offense, but that is not the message; that is merely what some people that are upset about LG ending keep saying the message is. What exactly did the RPGA do that shows it doesn't care about players? From what I can tell, it's basically just that LG is ending. Is there something other than the end of LG that makes the RPGA not care about its players? If not, why does a disagreement between a subset of players and the RPGA administration mean that the RPGA does not care about "its players"? The RPGA admin thinks that ending LG and starting a new Living campaign is in the best interests of the RPGA, which is fundamentally a group of players. Sure, it might not be in your best interests, but that doesn't mean it's not in the majority's best interests, or that the RPGA doesn't care. Even if the RPGA were wrong about what was best for the majority, that still doesn't mean that the RPGA doesn't care. Attributing some cold, malicious attitude to the RPGA does not make your desires to keep LG more reasonable. With all due respect, Britt, we are nothing but dollar signs to WotC, and you know it. We live in a Capitolist Democracy, and the basis of our economy is both free speech and making money. WotC knows that when there is a larger demand for a product such as Forgotten Realms, it makes sense to further focus on it to better increase profits. Out with D&D v 3.5, and in with 4.0, which equates to another dozen books to sell, and another stack of worthless old books players are stuck with. For this system to thrive, all materials they publish must be disposable, which is the opposite of what books should be. Money is all Hasbro/WotC cares about, you are the face of the circle, and a volunteer, which is meant to respresent the humanity of WotC which does not exist. You are a pawn to a corporate engine, and that is the truth. But, if we dd not want to play, we wouldn't. Everybody knows the truth even though they may deny it. I for one will continue to play, not for WotC, and not for the product they sheck out, but for the gaming community I have come to love. Thanks, Mark
opa 09-04-07, 04:10 AM	Well Mark, the choice of words, "knows there is a larger demand" in your argument is important. I am as upset as anyone about losing Living Greyhawk, and I know Living Greyhawk has a large and loyal player base, but the fact is that Living Realms will do alot to draw new players in. I hate Forgotten Realms, but will play it because I like organized play, and so will alot of greyhawkers. I can't see people blaming the RPGA for ignoring the player base or being shills for the man, they keep organized play alive, and I wouldn't at all be suprised if LR becomes bigger than Living Greyhawk, whether its because of Fanboys or kids or diehard realmers.. there are alot of Forgotten Realms fans out there. Even the RPGA can't please everyone, and I think they do their best for us within the limits of their power. By the way I think there really are two different topics here.. the switching of Living Greyhawk to Living Realms, which is extremely painful for me but acceptable and I don't think it was a decision contrary to the wishes of the majority of players... then there is the need for a 4th edition which I agree was a money move... but again, thats what they are in business for... at least the game is alive, unlike many other great games that have died and blown away... I'll buy the darn books, and play in the stupid Realms if it keeps my hobby alive and well so I can meet up with my friends at home or at the local cons, and someday explain the rules to my son, like I did with my godson a few years ago.. Mourn the loss of Living Greyhawk... Be ****** at having to buy more books while the ones we spent hundreds of dollars on becaome junk but thank wotc for keeping the hobby vibrant and attracting new players to the game even if only to line their pockets thank the rpga for bringing us organized game play thank the authors and circle and triads and administrators for making the world come alive for us out of love for the hobby and go to your local conventions and support the hobby and be thankful that we dont have to play friggin robots in Ebberon ;) Erik NH-Bissel (at least for a while longer)
Arvagor 09-04-07, 07:41 AM	You are a pawn to a corporate engine, and that is the truth.I thought Britt was a pawn of Iuz? :devil:
Britt 09-04-07, 10:08 PM	With all due respect, Britt, we are nothing but dollar signs to WotC, and you know it. We live in a Capitolist Democracy, and the basis of our economy is both free speech and making money. WotC knows that when there is a larger demand for a product such as Forgotten Realms, it makes sense to further focus on it to better increase profits. Out with D&D v 3.5, and in with 4.0, which equates to another dozen books to sell, and another stack of worthless old books players are stuck with. For this system to thrive, all materials they publish must be disposable, which is the opposite of what books should be. Money is all Hasbro/WotC cares about, you are the face of the circle, and a volunteer, which is meant to respresent the humanity of WotC which does not exist. You are a pawn to a corporate engine, and that is the truth. But, if we dd not want to play, we wouldn't. Everybody knows the truth even though they may deny it. I for one will continue to play, not for WotC, and not for the product they sheck out, but for the gaming community I have come to love. The problem I see is that some people seem to think that caring about money and caring about the campaign and the players are mutually exclusive. Cannot WotC believe that 4.0 and LFR are in the best interests of profit and the RPGA? I believe that is the case here. And I am far from a pawn, about as far as you could get; I am more critical than most people you will ever meet. I may not publically disagree with official decisions or positions, but if I publically agree, I mean it.
mark1978 09-05-07, 01:08 AM	The problem I see is that some people seem to think that caring about money and caring about the campaign and the players are mutually exclusive. Cannot WotC believe that 4.0 and LFR are in the best interests of profit and the RPGA? I believe that is the case here. And I am far from a pawn, about as far as you could get; I am more critical than most people you will ever meet. I may not publically disagree with official decisions or positions, but if I publically agree, I mean it. The only reason they want the RPGA to be successful is for their profits to increase. If they could dump the RPGA and increase their net profits per anum by 1% greater than if they kept the RPGA, they would dump us in a heartbeat. Hasbro/WotC is a company, they care about money, and that is all they care about. They built the RPGA as a merchandising strategy that is one of the best ever devised. They are smart, they have learned that gaming campaigns must begin and end within 5 to 7 years, along with major versions of the gaming materials. Story arcs must not run for longer than 3 years, because of our ADD-Family Guy attention spans. And, they continue to output more annual conventions than any other medium I am aware of. The truth is, the gaming community that has been formed and constantly evolves is a byproduct of their ploy to further increase profits. You, Britt, are a key member in the process. I am not saying you are a money-mongering Hasbro/WotC lackey, on the contrary, you have been appointed because you are a geniune gamer geek, of which I am a gold-card-carrying-member. This, unfortunately, makes you and the rest of the circle and all RPGA organizers as pawns in their corporate engine. I know this because I am a group organizer for a group of LG players and judges. Business only cares about the bottom-line, players only care about having fun, and WotC has brilliantly woven both together to fit both bills. I tip my preverbial hat to the unique and successful model WotC has established and proven to be successful. This does not change everybodies roles though. Mark ;)
paigeoliver 09-05-07, 07:24 AM	Hee, hee, I miss the Wendy's restaurants in St. Louis as well. Making your own large campaign isn't actually impossible. A while back I was administering a local "Living" style campaign and we had 40 active modules out in less than 4 months, and I personally wrote about 60 percent of them, the other 40 percent were evenly split between other authors and just running published adventures and adding AR sheets to them. The only thing that burned me out on it was the fact that I was literally running adventures 4 days a week. I had over 20 players involved when I burned out on it. Heck, maybe I will even resurrect the campaign sometime soon. I just won't run games 4 days a week this time.
Arvagor 09-05-07, 08:52 AM	And, they continue to output more annual conventions than any other medium I am aware of.Um... One? DDXP/Winter Fantasy is the only convention organized and run by WotC -- every other one you may have attended is either run by a completely separate corporate entity (GenCon, Origins), or by individuals (name any local/regional con)...
RanielK 09-05-07, 09:12 AM	Hee, hee, I miss the Wendy's restaurants in St. Louis as well. Making your own large campaign isn't actually impossible. A while back I was administering a local "Living" style campaign and we had 40 active modules out in less than 4 months, and I personally wrote about 60 percent of them, the other 40 percent were evenly split between other authors and just running published adventures and adding AR sheets to them. The only thing that burned me out on it was the fact that I was literally running adventures 4 days a week. I had over 20 players involved when I burned out on it. Heck, maybe I will even resurrect the campaign sometime soon. I just won't run games 4 days a week this time. That's where the hard part comes in. In order to sustain itself, a campaign needs more than one key writer and one main judge. And it is preferable they aren't the same person. Your campaign died out when you burned out and no one was there to pick up the pieces. For anything to come close to replicating LG, its gotta have one serious staff of volunteers who can draw from a pool of hundreds if not thousands of people to replace them when they can't go on. You've gotta have the Con Coordinator, the Campaign Standards Guy, the Modual Editors, the many, many writers, etc, so forth and so on.
kenobi65 09-05-07, 11:07 AM	For anything to come close to replicating LG, its gotta have one serious staff of volunteers who can draw from a pool of hundreds if not thousands of people to replace them when they can't go on. That's exactly right. I'm on the staff for Legends of the Shining Jewel. We've got a dozen or so staffers, plus a number of authors who don't do additional work on the campaign beyond writing modules, and there's still way too much to do, and we're always needing more people to help. And, we're not a particularly big campaign (though we certainly have aspirations). We've got close to 50 modules available, we've got hundreds of players...and we're still small, compared to even the smallest of the former RPGA campaigns, which had player bases in the thousands.
Samwise 09-05-07, 03:21 PM	Story arcs must not run for longer than 3 years, because of our ADD-Family Guy attention spans. Story arcs reduced in length because that is how fast characters level out of the campaign. People hate not being able to finish a story arc with the character that started it, so changes were made to make arcs cycle faster. Also, 3 years is hardly symptomatic of a deficit in attention span. That is over 50 adventures, on multiple plot arcs, making it difficult for anyone not exclusively focused on the campaign to keep things straight. Of course, some players responded to that by having a different character for every arc, causing different problems, but I'm sure the campaign staff will take that into account in LFR. And, they continue to output more annual conventions than any other medium I am aware of. WotC outputs only one convention - DDXP. They directly attend and produce content specifically for four conventions, but they only produce that one. It is the gaming community that outputs all of those annual conventions. Are you saying everyone who runs a game convention is just a WotC pawn? What about people who organize game days? The truth is, the gaming community that has been formed and constantly evolves is a byproduct of their ploy to further increase profits. So all this getting together, hanging out, gaming, and having a ton of fun is just a huge scheme by WotC, and presumably by TSR before them, and started by Gary Gygax, to make them money? You know what . . . I can live with that. Because I totally disagree with your spin on everything. Everyone is all down about LG ending, going on about how we have been "betrayed," and taken advantage of and all that stuff. I take the complete opposite view: I got 8 years of my favorite campaign. 8 years of the 'Hawk! As for being taken advantage of, they let me write for it! They played my game for 8 years. "Don't throw me in that briar patch Brer Fox!" If they took any more advantage of me, there would be a new GH setting book already on the schedule. I should be that lucky! I just hope saying this so directly doesn't tip them off. Otherwise, they will keep being so focused on making money, they won't realize just how much they are letting me take advantage of them. Phase 1: Set up the RPGA Phase 2: (Use Greyhawk so we get 8 years of promoting my favorite setting, and contributing to its development) Phase 3: Profit! Yeah. That will work just fine. ;)
pneumatik 09-06-07, 10:34 AM	Not to nudge this thread any closer to the original topic, but can't you publish derivative material on gleemax.com? I could be completely wrong about this, but I thought WotC's goal with gleemax was to let people create and publish derivative works based on WotC IP, as long as they put it up on gleemax. So you can keep running LG, as long as all the actual content is made available via the gleemax forums and not anywhere else. You should even be able to use other methods to coordinate and organize. The down side of gleemax is that WotC reserves the right to republish anything you put on gleemax. They've stated that's only to keep them from being sued, and that they have no intention of just ripping people off. I believe them, but you might not. I'm also not sure how the IP created by LG contributers would be handled by a LG4.0 campaign. For example, if an author created an NPC in a mod, would LG4.0 be able to use that NPC? *shrug* I'm with MwaO (I think): I love LG, but I'm still looking forward to playing good mods in a good new system. And if that doesn't happen, I'll vote with my feet.
KarmaInferno 09-07-07, 01:43 PM	That's where the hard part comes in. In order to sustain itself, a campaign needs more than one key writer and one main judge. And it is preferable they aren't the same person. That get me thinking. While I'm sure that the "significant resources" that RPGA HQ says they personally expend on maintaining Living Campaigns are, in fact, nothing to sneeze at, I'm wondering if there's another factor. Insufficient volunteer resources. It's been mentioned that just finding replacements for outgoing Triad members is increasingly difficult these days. Chances are also that most folks heavily involved in volunteering one campaign setting won't have much time to also volunteer for a second one. So, you have a volunteer base already stretched thin by one living campaign. I'm thinking there might not be enough folks willing to help write and administrate and whatever for TWO such campaigns. At least not to any robust level. I'm sure there would be enough PLAYERS, but people willing to step up to the bat and work? Not really that many out there, comparatively. -karma
Sieylianna 09-07-07, 05:53 PM	I'm sure there would be enough PLAYERS, but people willing to step up to the bat and work? Not really that many out there, comparatively. Another thing to remember is that this is year 7. Some of the people who volunteered for triad have moved on to other things or decided not to re-apply after they were passed over the first time. So depending on the regional turnover, you may have lost a number of volunteers without their ever becoming triad members. Ed
Drezden 09-09-07, 02:34 AM	If you enjoy Living Greyhawk and don't want the campaign to end, we have started a petition to Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast asking them not to end Living Greyhawk. Show your support for LG by signing this petition at: http://save_lg.greyhawk.fr/ The text of the petition is below for those interested. Thanks, Daren lets_save_lg@yahoogroups.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- To Hasbro/Wizards of the Coast: We are RPGA members who play the Living Greyhawk campaign. We disagree with the RPGA's decision regarding the termination of the Living Greyhawk campaign in 2008. We want the Living Greyhawk campaign to continue. Please re-consider this decision and allow the Living Greyhawk campaign to continue indefinitely.
paigeoliver 09-09-07, 06:35 AM	Online petitions don't work. http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/petition/internet.asp Google the phrase "online petition worked" with the quotes and see how many of them had any effect. Of the whole 15 results most of them are included inside sentences such as "when was the last time an online petition worked". O
Mithreinmaethor 09-09-07, 09:06 AM	Yeah online petitions are usually a last sign of desperation. Its dead people move on. Play or dont play the next Living Campaign, its your loss either way. Just quit being creepy with all the save LG crap. Why do I envision a bunch of Gollum like LG players sitting in their basements stroking their AR's going "My Precious, the evils WOTCises stoles my precious"
Drezden 09-09-07, 01:21 PM	Not true - online petitions can work. Umm, the last time was less than a month ago when Cadbury revived a dead candy bar. Here is the link: http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20070827/ZNYT05/708270652/-1/RSS Daren Online petitions don't work. http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/petition/internet.asp Google the phrase "online petition worked" with the quotes and see how many of them had any effect. Of the whole 15 results most of them are included inside sentences such as "when was the last time an online petition worked". O
Reneshat 09-10-07, 03:16 AM	Not true - online petitions can work. Umm, the last time was less than a month ago when Cadbury revived a dead candy bar. Here is the link: http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20070827/ZNYT05/708270652/-1/RSS Daren That was a specific situation where a company saw there was enough of a demand for a product that they could sell it and make more money. Are you willing to pay for Living Greyhawk?
KarmaInferno 09-10-07, 10:50 AM	The only way LG is coming back is if a product line is attached to it. I expect in 3 years or so, when the Greyhawk Campaign Setting is inevitably re-released for 4.0 WotC just came to the realization that it was probably a silly idea to maintain a resource draining campaign that they weren't producing or selling any campaign-specific books for, while NOT having such a campaign for settings there WERE producing books for. Advertise the stuff you are selling, not the stuff you are NOT selling. -karma
gomeztoo 09-12-07, 06:26 AM	I'm sure there would be enough PLAYERS, but people willing to step up to the bat and work? Not really that many out there, comparatively. My guess is that is one of the reasons why they made the regions bigger. btw, I DO hope that LFR will mostly be getting setting specific books to promote, rather than yet-another-SPLAT-book-we-don't-have-enough-options-yet.