| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Banor08-18-07, 08:37 PM | I'm curious about it, how many people will be playing Living Realm ? I for sure will go back to homebrew. Its quite sad because I loved LG, that was a great fun experience that, it seem, I discovered a bit too late... |
| Bogjob08-18-07, 08:39 PM | Me, I don't see the difference and I like the FR setting. If the online play idea is workable I cant wait. |
| MadVlad08-18-07, 09:40 PM | Not a chance in hell. I'll be retiring right alongside my characters. Greyhawk Ruins will be the last Wizards product I buy until something Greyhawk comes out. |
| Grimslade200108-18-07, 10:05 PM | I'm torn. I love LG, but I have very little experience with the Realms. I suppose it will come down to the people who volunteer. When LG first started a lot of people who built it up were emigres from Living City. The volunteers are what make the campaign. If there are triads with locally controlled and contributed plot lines, I will join up. I know the quality of work my neighbors can create and that is what matters. |
| Haro08-18-07, 11:02 PM | I am positively frothing at the mouth in excitement. Faerun is what made me fall in love with D&D and while I am very attached to all things Greyhawk, I couldn't be more excited to get into the new campaign. Joe |
| babanathie08-18-07, 11:09 PM | Probably not. I'll give it a try. But I have had nothing but bad experiences with FR stuff. In my opinion, it is a poorly designed world, and I don't want to waste my time with it. |
| LCJJohnson08-18-07, 11:38 PM | At present I would rate it as Unlikely. Too many novels, too much is already written. It is like looking at a house on a postage stamp of a lot in the middle of a subdivision when you want to build your own on acreage. |
| clannagh08-18-07, 11:43 PM | Afraid not. I have NWN II installed on my PC and played it for all of 2 weeks total, the setting does not appeal to me. However I know a lot of computer gamers that probably will try it. My suspicion is they will lose a lot of the regular LG player base but pick up enough new players to make the loss of the LGers insignificant from a commercial point of view. |
| Emirikol08-19-07, 12:09 AM | Although I have no love for the setting, I will try to continue to contribute... jh |
| MatteBlack08-19-07, 12:44 AM | I'll play LG out to it's conclusion and most likely jump into the new FR campaign when I can. If it is similar enough to the old LG or I like it for other reasons, I'll continue on with it. I play for the joy of playing and less for the resulting high level character to show off so, a reset or move to another campaign may be less of a big deal to me. Lee |
| Umbra_Kaitou08-19-07, 12:59 AM | I've never had the chance to homebrew, so LG has been the only D&D i've ever had, I'm quite sad to half to leave my characters off at such low levels and progress THat being said, I'll likely join LFR, the Faerun setting is what got me interested in D&D also. I am worried though, about how we will be able to impact the world when it is one dominated by novelists. They've hinted that Salvatore's next book The Orc King will offer hints as to where 4th Ed Forgotten Realms is going. I'm thinking, and hoping, that after Salvatores next book (or books if theres a trilogy like usual) there will be a time jump, and thats where We start up with in a world impacted by all that book history, but oine we get to help guide the way. Maybe even do things that work with the authors such as "Hey, i'm thinking of Drow invading calimport" and the circle going "Hey, that sounds cool, we'll whip up some mods around it while you write the book" and in some way, let us affect things are way, and have the books lead with official story, if that makes some sense, if there will be books, we might aswell work with them right? I'm also wondering, especially with a time jump, we might see orc PCs, as the books that i can recall, seem to be leading towards Orcs banding together in their own culture instead of nomadic. But yes, i'm likely to join up, though i'll be angry if I can't be a monk... |
| LGMoses08-19-07, 01:17 AM | I'll play but I won't run. I'll even be saving money on ink really. I'm also not going to buy any of the new books they reprint. FR and Eberron are money sinks with their little splat books. I'll just be getting the 4e phb. Maybe I'll get the other core books but I don't see myself buying into anymore of this "Complete" business. |
| clannagh08-19-07, 01:25 AM | I'll play but I won't run. I'll even be saving money on ink really. I'm also not going to buy any of the new books they reprint. FR and Eberron are money sinks with their little splat books. I'll just be getting the 4e phb. Maybe I'll get the other core books but I don't see myself buying into anymore of this "Complete" business. I have already promised all my current books (I currently own purchased hard copies of something like 20 WoTC publications) to a young unemployed local girl who is moving to a larger centre - as an author and master Level GM she is likely to keep playing. I tend to think marketing people overvalue the custom of the random "fad" players who buy a bit of stuff and quit and undervalue there longterm customer base. |
| GreatSiron08-19-07, 01:33 AM | I'll join up, because i actually know the Realms better than i do Greyhawk. (I read the FR sourcebook like six times). That said, i hope Tennessee gets assigned to one of the Dales. |
| NiTessine08-19-07, 01:35 AM | We shall see. Depending on how this is handled, it can be good, or a tremendously bad campaign. It's mostly about how continuity and the development of regions is handled. Honestly, my hopes are not high. |
| Franco Un-American08-19-07, 01:36 AM | Probably. While I feel very strongly that the Forgotten Realms are the Gobots to Greyhawk's Transformers, it will likely be some of the only gaming I'll get in. |
| Norg08-19-07, 01:43 AM | I'll be playing the new Realms Living Campaign. I've heard all this crap before. People complained when 3E came out and said they'd never play LG because they didn't want to stop playing LC. Well, most of them did play LG and now they're complaining again. I will miss LG and do hope that they will start another LG campaign for 4E. I'd play in both Campaigns as I play in multiple campaigns now. ---> Larry <--- |
| Mithreinmaethor08-19-07, 01:51 AM | I will play LG to its conclusion and then step into the new Living Campaign. They seem to be trying to include the LG Circle and Triad in this change. They know they need them to make it successful. LG had a hell of a run for 8 years. Things change people. I have been doing this since 1976. I dont even want to think of how much I have spent on books, dice, modules etc. |
| clannagh08-19-07, 01:51 AM | I'll be playing the new Realms Living Campaign. I've heard all this crap before. People complained when 3E came out and said they'd never play LG because they didn't want to stop playing LC. Well, most of them did play LG and now they're complaining again. I will miss LG and do hope that they will start another LG campaign for 4E. I'd play in both Campaigns as I play in multiple campaigns now. ---> Larry <--- If you ask anyone on these boards that knows me personally they will tell you if I say I am quitting something there is no going back even if the original decision turns out to be a bad one. I quit as senior GM of the local gamesdays here 12 months ago after silly argeuments and now the girl who took over is leaving (she is i think our only other local master level GM) and I still will not take over again. Decisions are final, its an integrity thing, never threaten what you are not serious about and once you make a decision stick with it. It's actually a character flaw I have. I am also well aware that no-one will care and the new campaign will do wonderfully well without me :) |
| LGMoses08-19-07, 01:58 AM | If they keep it similar to the way LG is set up I see no reason why it shouldn't be a success other than we ****** off LG players. I'm a bit disillussioned and depressed myself! I worked my butt off for LG! First, I had to convince everyone to play it and that Greyhawk wasn't a bad setting. I had to tear them away from Forgotten Realms. I had to teach them all the new rules, convince them of how good the point-buy system is, and make them understand why an "access system" is needed. Then I had to get them submerged into Greyhawk and the goings on and the lore seeing as how that is printed basically nowhere. Finally, I had to spend my time and money printing adventures and running them every week (as well as preparring to run them) to try and get my players used to the games and get them some levels. Just when they were all hitting level 3 what happens, the setting is killed. For no reason other than FR has a vast media support that was never given to Greyhawk. I'll not run FR. I don't need some jack ass who has read the book telling me my description of Baldur's Gate isn't how its described in the book or game or whatever. *WoW, it bleeps pi55ed but not ass* |
| clannagh08-19-07, 02:31 AM | If they keep it similar to the way LG is set up I see no reason why it shouldn't be a success other than we ****** off LG players. I'm a bit disillussioned and depressed myself! I worked my butt off for LG! Well in theory this afternoon I was supposed to be finishing the last few bits of a two part Ratik intro mod to email off to triad tomorrow. A mod which now I cant see anyone playing, why create a new character for a dead campaign? Nevertheless we will eventually finish it. So instead I am doing a law assignment which is probably more productive use of my time from a real world point of view anyway. Every cloud has a silver lining. |
| LGMoses08-19-07, 02:38 AM | I can't wait for it now. I actually am optimistic because now I won't have to trouble myself with running. I'm not going to run it. Either someone else will pick it up or RPGA will die at my gaming store. And if someone picks it up, I get to play. My year of loyal service to LG and my players will see to that. If it dies, well, I think I could get a Mechwarrior club going in the small hole that will be left by the absence of Living Greyhawk and RPGA. So either I have fun playing FR (I like this idea of playing, seems like all of the fun with none of my current responsibilities) or Mechwarrior. I'm happy either way. :D |
| garyjohnson08-19-07, 07:37 AM | My wife and I will see how things are towards the end of next year - a year and a half is a long time from now. At this early stage, I'd say we'll definitely try 4th edition, we'll probably try Living Realms, but we'll possibly concentrate on Homegame Greyhawk and keep on playing our LG characters with our regular LG home game group. Cheers, Gary Johnson |
| _metz_08-19-07, 07:46 AM | My wife and I will see how things are towards the end of next year - a year and a half is a long time from now. At this early stage, I'd say we'll definitely try 4th edition, we'll probably try Living Realms, but we'll possibly concentrate on Homegame Greyhawk and keep on playing our LG characters with our regular LG home game group. Cheers, Gary Johnson We are setting up something like that right now as well. The setting of Greyhawk is fantastic, and I really think Faerun is too videogamey for my liking. However, I will give it a chance WHEN it comes out. IF they stick to many of the 'legal' things I really like about LG, such as Triads, Meta Regions, ARs, restrictions on some of the more silly stuff out there (no Pounce as an alternate class feature) and maintain both the campaign results on the greater world AND release the same number of modules, it will be hard for me NOT to take part, even if it means a whole new world. However, if its a few mods a year where our results don't matter and anything goes, I see it dying very quickly. There is a reason so many people play LG and give hours of time in unpaid volunteer work to it, and thats because the system WORKS. I hope WoTC are paying attention. |
| Banor08-19-07, 08:01 AM | What annoy me the most is that Greyhawk was almost made to be a Living Campaign. Static but detailled world with a lot of different region and great background. The realms were designed with writing books in mind. They are a ever evolving story (like a serie that you would watch at TV) that is not only harder but also risky to let players impact a lot on the setting. We all know that players are pretty good at screwing plots and this kind of stuff. |
| MadVlad08-19-07, 08:14 AM | The Realms are New Coke. There was no need for New Coke, Coke Classic made a comeback. let's hope that's the case here.... |
| echoota08-19-07, 08:16 AM | I never cared for the LG background. It was just generic old school D&D land, so switching to FR which, while still making lot less sense then Eberron, at least has some mood. I'm excited in principle for 4th edition. It sounds like it will fix most of what I've whined to my poor wife for too long about 3.5, as they are chucking most of the vancian magic system, every level you get some cool power, the skill tree is collapsing, racial levels will allow an easy way to play freakshow parties. I think all of my dreams are coming true, save that I'm not going into a coma for two years and then awoken so that there are 20 splatbooks ready to be digested. After a tedious third season of Lost, watching it from week to week, I'd much rather media corporations to just spring their entire product line onto me with complete surprise than have to wait for the dribble of releases. A living Forgotten Realms sounds fine, at least in theory. With a homebrew game I spent countless hours paging through all of the FR supplements to try and find the most absurd character builds, and FR was obviously intended for players to be able to play a host of bizarre races. If the LFR can eventually accomodate hordes of fey, dragonkin, bugbears and oriental stuff for players, along with a less restrictive item access system than what LG offered then I think I'd enjoy it. That's probably the biggest thing with LG that I didn't care for, having to sit through hours of gaming and at the end getting a cert that had nothing to offer my character, or at least nothing I could afford. That happened far too many times for my taste. If they could loosen LFR up some more, get some Xen'drik mechanics in there and ensure that each session ends with some shiny new thing for my character then I'll be in heaven. |
| nobodez08-19-07, 08:30 AM | I'm going to make the move. Heck, I've even got a half dozen old 3e FR characters waiting to come out and play, from wizards (which hopefully will be better in 4th), to sorcerers (which hopefully will have won their fight with the warlock), to paladins (kelemvor for the win), to rangers (hopefully the ranger looted some skirmish), to even a bard (hopefully still there). |
| kjenks08-19-07, 08:51 AM | Texas wants dibs on Chult! (At least, some of us do.) |
| Norg08-19-07, 10:36 AM | Texas wants dibs on Chult! (At least, some of us do.) You can have Chult Ken. We in Florida want Cormyr, Land of the Purple Dragon.:P ---> Larry <--- |
| Grimslade200108-19-07, 10:52 AM | Sorry Ken but Thay fits the Bandit Kingdoms much better than CHult. No living jungle for Texas. :D I know so little of the Realms that I am absolutely unsure what region I would want. What region is like Keoland? Amn? :confused: |
| JJeff08-19-07, 11:25 AM | Sorry Ken but Thay fits the Bandit Kingdoms much better than CHult. No living jungle for Texas. :D I know so little of the Realms that I am absolutely unsure what region I would want. What region is like Keoland? Amn? :confused: Can what is currently Perrenland claim Halruaa? |
| cetiken08-19-07, 11:43 AM | Probably not. I'll give it a try. But I have had nothing but bad experiences with FR stuff. In my opinion, it is a poorly designed world, and I don't want to waste my time with it. As opposed to Grayhawk where the the names of gods were interpreted in a bowl of of alphebet soup. At least in the Realms theres some halfway good novels. |
| cetiken08-19-07, 11:50 AM | I worked my butt off for LG! First, I had to convince everyone to play it and that Greyhawk wasn't a bad setting. I had to tear them away from Forgotten Realms. It looks like a part of recruiting new players will be easier now. |
| Fsi-Dib08-19-07, 12:00 PM | Honestly said I'd be a LOT happier if they would have said "Living Eberron" instead of "Forgotten Realms". I personally dislike the realms, as it is a bunch of real world culture's put into a mythical world with magical twists. Even the map is a copy. Gawd. |
| scon4008-19-07, 01:06 PM | If you see the Realms as needing improvement, consider this an opportunity to do so through the Living FR campaign. Lots of the people involved in the design and execution of LG will be working on LFR, I suspect. And since WotC and the LFR campaign will be working hand in hand on telling the tale of the FR, I expect good things to come. |
| lathan6608-19-07, 01:33 PM | Honestly, what about all of the new LGers who have low level characters that are going no where now? What about Greyhawk Ruins? What about the story arcs of all the regions? What about all of the work? Sure, we can do new stuff now. Sure we can help rebuild. But to have this wipe of Living Greyhawk and a whole new clean slate to work from... Many of us have characters that we worked hard on getting to where they are now. Many of us have created new characters with the new classes and prestige classes that are now going to go nowhere. Many of us didn't even get a taste for the new stuff. It is all well and good but Living Greyhawk is the largest base of people who supported WotC and they have basically thrown us into the trash. What about events that are strictly Living Greyhawk that already have convetions/hotels booked to the end of next year. What about the stores that have supported us? Do you really think that attendance will remain as good as it has been next year? I'd gladly volunteer for 4th Edition and move forward with it, but only for the continuation of Living Greyhawk. WotC has their creative geniuses but so do the regions of Greyhawk. Many people sacrificed time and effort to develop these regions and to build metaorganizations and interactive story arcs. Many of these things are going to be tossed and never make it to completion or will be abbreviated so much that the storyline will fail or be miserably cut. Many people may be so frustrated that they just give up and nothing happens. All of the above is speculation but it is common sense. Why continue now that we have a lack of support from WotC and possibly the RPGA now. Do we follow the party line and go Living Forgotten Realms? Some may be encouraged by this because they enjoy the books. The books are one thing but the roleplaying aspect is another. Who will buy Greyhawk Ruins? Only those that will DM it. Since we may not even get to play it and get RPGA credit on it, why buy it. It's a waste of money now. Rumor is we get measured by this purchase. They are saying this because they don't want to create something and lose money on it. We'll all go out and purchase this book and Greyhawk will still be gone. Well, if that is the message they want to send to their consumer, then I think we should send them a message back. We should send an LG Petition and let them know that we want to keep Living Greyhawk. If they ignore that, then I am done and I hope others follow. I don't want to break away or boycott them. I think we need to petition them and work within the system. But, if they are unwilling to see the truth, that Living Greyhawk is a very high percentage of their consumers, then I am ready to move on from them and hope they lose money and eventually they disappear into oblivion with the product that they threw into oblivion. I was all for 4th Edition until the announcement of LG's Demise. They went too far on that decision. Drizzt will not come to rescue them on this one. Bruce Wienckowski Limerick, PA |
| gomeztoo08-19-07, 02:07 PM | If you see the Realms as needing improvement, consider this an opportunity to do so through the Living FR campaign. Lots of the people involved in the design and execution of LG will be working on LFR, I suspect. And since WotC and the LFR campaign will be working hand in hand on telling the tale of the FR, I expect good things to come. Well, I hope that we will get an opportunity to affect how the reals will grow. You know, design regional plots that actually make it into 'real' publications. The idea that you can affect your region is a very powerful one. Btw, Europe dibs the Moonshea isles ;) Not that I believe that has ANY effect... but hey, I can hope. |
| Swiftbrook08-19-07, 02:16 PM | Not a chance in hell. I'll be retiring right alongside my characters. Greyhawk Ruins will be the last Wizards product I buy until something Greyhawk comes out. Ditto -Swiftbrook |
| bhale18708-19-07, 03:10 PM | I will certainly make the move to Forgotten Realms. My home brew games have been almost exclusively FR based for nearly 20 years now. As much as I'll hate to lose my LG characters, I must say I am only surprised it did not happen sooner. Look at it this way....RPGA is just a marketing tool for the WotC products, and with that in mind why wouldn't they switch to a campaign that offers more books to buy. There have been TONS of Forgotten Realms materials released over recent years, but nothing new for Greyhawk. Now obviously since we are talking about 4E the old books will likely not be used, but surely 4E will continue the tradition of offering plenty of FR supplements. |
| MadVlad08-19-07, 04:09 PM | As someone just recently pointed out to me, Greyhawk Ruins is an apropriate name for the new product because Ruins is what they've left of Living Greyhawk..... |
| scon4008-19-07, 04:16 PM | Honestly, what about all of the new LGers who have low level characters that are going no where now? They'll have lots of opportunities to play through the concluding saga of LG, just like everyone else. And what happens in the concluding story will be determined by player actions in the campaign. What about Greyhawk Ruins? Will run as planned with an earlier release of the adaptation of EtCG. What about the story arcs of all the regions? They were designed to complete in 2008 anyway. So we'll be doing so. What about all of the work? Is the value of the work only there if you continue to play in the world? Or is the value in the memories and the way the creation lives on after you? As with a child, they eventually grow up and leave home. Many of us have created new characters with the new classes and prestige classes that are now going to go nowhere. You'll have plenty of opportunities to do so in the new campaign as well. And eventually your PCs would have to retire anyway. No PC gets to be played forever in a Living Campaign. What about events that are strictly Living Greyhawk that already have convetions/hotels booked to the end of next year. What about the stores that have supported us? Do you really think that attendance will remain as good as it has been next year? I think it will be better as people race to play everything in site before the campaign ends. Many people sacrificed time and effort to develop these regions and to build metaorganizations and interactive story arcs. Many of these things are going to be tossed and never make it to completion or will be abbreviated so much that the storyline will fail or be miserably cut. Many people may be so frustrated that they just give up and nothing happens. Some will retire/quit from the RPGA. Of that I have no doubt. But there will be little tossed aside ... we've been planning to wrap up stories in 2008 before we even knew the campagin would end. It's not going to change much other than us not starting new storylines now. Why continue now that we have a lack of support from WotC and possibly the RPGA now. You define it as a lack of support. I don't think most people do. They see the reality of how things work in the world and in gaming. Nothing last forever. The books are one thing but the roleplaying aspect is another. In what way is the new campaign going to lack roleplaying. I know that the RPGA is taking everything they learned from years of LG and trying to use that as the basis for an even better experience. I assure you that there a lot of things the Circle would have done differently had we know then what we know now. Who will buy Greyhawk Ruins? Only those that will DM it. Nope. Every GH fan out there may buy it. I bought it already. It's amazing and so well integrated into numerous bits of GH canon. Worth every penny even if i never got to use it. We should send an LG Petition and let them know that we want to keep Living Greyhawk. If they ignore that, then I am done and I hope others follow. The decision has been made. LG is going to end. It's not going to be changed by a petition. Living Greyhawk is a very high percentage of their consumers It isn't a very high percentage of their consumers. An important percentage, yes, but not a very high percentage. |
| Emirikol08-19-07, 05:02 PM | FYI, there are now Living FORGOTTEN REALMS Discussion Groups Open: http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/LivingFR :) Jay |
| Al08-19-07, 05:22 PM | Only one thing will stop me from making the move... LEVEL BUMPS, if they are in, I'm out. Otherwise, anything BUT the dalelands for Georgia! Al |
| scon4008-19-07, 06:13 PM | No level bumps in LFR. It's a living style campaign, just like LG. |
| HassanSabbah08-19-07, 06:15 PM | I'm in Turkey right now, though that might change in a year. Assuming I stay here, I suspect that there will be many more FR players available, as it is the preferred DnD setting here. (*My* preferred setting is GH; and the preferred published general RPG settings in Turkey IMO are VTM and Ravenloft). I miss playing FtF in a living campaign, so I'll probably make the move. I will definitely not make the move if I'm forced to pay to play. I also will not take a campaign with level bumps seriously. (I simply can't take such campaigns seriously. I tried.) |
| HassanSabbah08-19-07, 06:17 PM | Hmm. SCon40 has allayed my fears... No pay to play planned, and no level bumps. That's a positive sign. Baris |
| Sieylianna08-19-07, 06:43 PM | I was active in Living City (wrote 10 modules) and have walls of Forgotten Realms materials. I'm sure to give the LFR setting a trial and may look into applying for campaign staff, depending on what positions are open. How much I plan LG during the waning days of the campaign will depend on what is going on locally. My biggest problem is that my preferred PCs can't play at tables because most of the locals are of lower levels. We'll see what they say now that Gen COn is over. Ed |
| mendahu08-19-07, 07:34 PM | When I read that there would be Living FR I almost fainted. I am so excited for this change; I have been a diehard Realms since I started playing D&D, and I only dreamt of a Living version. I'm going to get on board helping out with the new campaign right away! -Jake Robins Edmonton, AB |
| LCJJohnson08-19-07, 11:15 PM | Can this thread please be moved to RPGA > RPGA HQ > RPGA GENERAL until such time as RPGA > RPGA Campaigns > Living Forgotten Realms is created? LCJJohnson |
| Stafir Ortnev08-19-07, 11:48 PM | Ok..will I make the move. Lets see here are my choices. Move over to the new FR campain. Which will have a circle, will have a triad, will have players writing mods, will have player input. Will basically be EVERYTHING that LG was...but set in FR instead of GH. Or...I can stop playing living campains period. Keep playing..or stop playing..keep playing or stop playing. Keep playing because I enjoy the idea of Living campains, because I enjoy the fact I can take a character I made halfway around the world. Move to another area..and have him immediately accepted. Keep playing in a world where the players actually matter, and where the shape of the campain is decided directly by players. Keep playing where a somewhat level playingfield is actually designed, and everything printed isn't accepted automatically..and no-one begs and pleads the DM to try and force them to allow 'this book mod' eating up precious gametime in the process. Or stop playing because my character who would have eventually died or be retired anyway...is going to be retired in 16 months..and I am told so well before hand, so I know how to properly prepare..and infact all mod writers will be ready to fully prepare and they'll be able to give the campain an ending it deserves... Uh..yeah..I think I'll keep playing as long as the rules for 4E itself is good...one campain got 8 good years of play...thats more than most home games I've ever heard of. And the amount of player input is more than most DM's I've heard of give as well. |
| Hariman08-19-07, 11:50 PM | Sorry Ken but Thay fits the Bandit Kingdoms much better than CHult. No living jungle for Texas. :D I know so little of the Realms that I am absolutely unsure what region I would want. What region is like Keoland? Amn? :confused: Maybe Impiltur? Or am I mixing up a history of combat and war with the machinations of the nobility and other parties of Keoland? Oh, and I'll be making the move. D&D is too much fun not to. |
| KarmaInferno08-19-07, 11:57 PM | As someone just recently pointed out to me, Greyhawk Ruins is an apropriate name for the new product because Ruins is what they've left of Living Greyhawk..... The irony? What came out as a new off-shoot campaign for Raven's Bluff: The Living City shortly before the campaign was killed? Ruins of Ravens Bluff. -karma |
| MichaelAhlf08-20-07, 12:29 AM | Ok Conforti... I cannot let this one sit. Enough is enough. Is the value of the work only there if you continue to play in the world? Or is the value in the memories and the way the creation lives on after you? As with a child, they eventually grow up and leave home. If you take a priceless work of art, a painting or diary or a novel, and you shred it or burn it or remove it from the world... then it's gone. The value has vanished as much as possible. THAT is what you are talking about doing to Living Greyhawk. It will not "live on after us." It will be DEAD. You'll have plenty of opportunities to do so in the new campaign as well. And eventually your PCs would have to retire anyway. No PC gets to be played forever in a Living Campaign. PC's have retired, and been irretrievably killed, and everything else in the campaign... but they have impacted the campaign world. There are NPC's who started as PC's now all over regions in LG. They are in the meta-organizations, appear in modules, still affect the regional storyline and are a major part of play. I think it will be better as people race to play everything in site before the campaign ends. Given that plenty of people are simply giving up right now, and won't even be around? Some will retire/quit from the RPGA. Of that I have no doubt. But there will be little tossed aside ... Yeah, little tossed aside - just the years of hard work of players and volunteers alike. we've been planning to wrap up stories in 2008 before we even knew the campagin would end. It's not going to change much other than us not starting new storylines now. Says you - our triad was working hard on existing storylines and new ones, and the mod writers have just been betrayed. In what way is the new campaign going to lack roleplaying. Given everything we're hearing so far of 4E and what we already know of FR? I know that the RPGA is taking everything they learned from years of LG and trying to use that as the basis for an even better experience. I assure you that there a lot of things the Circle would have done differently had we know then what we know now. Here's lesson #1: don't alienate your players by spitting on them and killing your vibrant, still-growing, largest and best living campaign. There you go. Free of charge. Now learn from it. The decision has been made. LG is going to end. It's not going to be changed by a petition. They really hate us that much? Thanks for letting us know how little you think of the players - e.g. The Customers - now. |
| Mithreinmaethor08-20-07, 12:38 AM | Hey Michael since I will sign your petition will you sign mine, or maybe a contract that states that you wont play 4e living campaigns of any type ? Not sure 7 or 8 years down the line we want to go thru all this again. I think people got the idea you were upset after your 1st post. |
| KarmaInferno08-20-07, 12:50 AM | I might re-create an old Living City character. Back in the old campaign, his background was that of having been a demi-god, a king, an archmage, and few other things he can't remember. He unfortunately has been killed and ressurected, raised, reincarnated, and otherwise brought from the dead so many times that he's more than a little off in the head. Some of the stuff he remembers doing he really did. Some of it is just a delusion. He has no idea which is which. The multiple deaths also explain why he's first level. It would be just more of the same sad history if he were suddenly 1st level again cos he died a few more times. -karma |
| ferretz08-20-07, 01:00 AM | Blurgh Too much baggage ! - how many FR novels are there, whats left to explore or define - nada And having read some of the 2nd edition stuff - you had you hand held while you "experienced the Novel" (erm I mean played the module) Count me out - time to start writing the new homebrew campaign ( or collecting lots of LG mods to run ... ) |
| KarmaInferno08-20-07, 01:08 AM | Ya'll do realize there was a Forgotten Realms Living Campaign that ran longer than Living Greyhawk did, right? One that featured upwards of 80 new adventures a year at the highest point. "Name" NPCs rarely actually showed up. Though Elminster did keep appearing at the GenCon LARP events. If Ed Greenwood wants to show up in-character, nobody was going to tell him "no". -karma |
| Potmos08-20-07, 01:27 AM | Sorry Ken but Thay fits the Bandit Kingdoms much better than CHult. No living jungle for Texas. :D I know so little of the Realms that I am absolutely unsure what region I would want. What region is like Keoland? Amn? :confused: Texas won't get Thay. I'm betting that 'honour' gets handed to us Canadians. First Ket, then Thay. Hasbro must think we're pro-slavery up here. (actually, I think it would be great if we got The Vast. So many fond memories of wandering around the Vast.) Besides, I think the Nelanther Isles would be more suited to the Bandit Kingdoms replacement. My favourite passage from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting is the 'Imports' description of the Nelanther Isles. "Imports: Anything natives can steal, loot, or salvage" Potmos (who is looking forward to revisiting the campaign setting where he first got introduced to the RPGA back in 1994) |
| Hariman08-20-07, 01:54 AM | Ya'll do realize there was a Forgotten Realms Living Campaign that ran longer than Living Greyhawk did, right? One that featured upwards of 80 new adventures a year at the highest point. "Name" NPCs rarely actually showed up. Though Elminster did keep appearing at the GenCon LARP events. If Ed Greenwood wants to show up in-character, nobody was going to tell him "no". -karma Setting the Living Realms (It's easiest to say.) campaign a number of years AFTER all of the novels, even, perhaps, after the death of many of the legends of FR, would probably be a good idea. Just to discourage "famous NPC appearance". Although having a fighter named Milo to kill in an early adventure would probably make many players very happy. Just remember, Ed Greenwood only plays Elminster. |
| markjsb08-20-07, 01:55 AM | No I won't be moving to LFR, since I'll being spending my time and money on ANY fantasy gaming system NOT owned by WOTC. Come on LG players let's see how much business we can give to WOTCs competitors.:P |
| Fsi-Dib08-20-07, 02:14 AM | I was supposed to write an introductionary scenario for year 8. This won't probably be happening anymore. The general atmosphere among the LG groups (at least in my region) is downright negative. Everyone has said "yeah, we might try LFR", but expectations are very low. Also it heavily depends on what region is handed to us. An unshapeable region is a nightmare for triads and scenario writers alike. Truth be told, I heard from the region's triad, that he had planned a massive story arc involving an invasion of another region (triads working together on the subject), though this would have taken a few years more time to build and plot. Yes, some things have to end. But I find this to be just a slaughter of a young child. It takes a lot of time to grow. |
| Gelth08-20-07, 03:22 AM | What makes any campaign fun is (in order) the people you play with, the adventures you play, the rules you play under and the setting you play in. Note that setting (GH vs FR) is in my opinion not very important. I'm a GH fan (25+ years now) who never liked FR much, but that's not important. I predict that well over 90% of GH players will eventually play LFR and like it at least as much as they like LG now. I certainly plan to give it a try, and I'd be shocked if 8 years of experience haven't shown the RPGA how to improve on the campaign structure, and the influx of FR fans (even if I don't like it as much) can only be good. The setting isn't really important. The people are. If you are a good player and judge, and you choose to play the new campaign, you'll be helping make it better for everyone including you. I have fun playing, so I play. That's why I'm here, so I'm staying as long as I am having fun. --Penn, Ket Triad |
| DarkKnight08-20-07, 04:13 AM | Well, since I started playing in the RPGA it will be like going home again. While I like the Greyhawk setting, I wish that there was more written on it in novel form so I could have learned more about the lands. As for regions, I've spent the last 7 years in the Shield Lands taking back inch by bloody inch of the country from Iuz *spit*, I can see it now, I get stuck in Myth Drannor, Anauroch, or some other gods forsaken region and have to fight to take that back. I'd like a nice civilized region for once like Waterdeep, Thay (they're not that evil, right?), or Sembia (they are that evil, as all merchants are). |
| MadVlad08-20-07, 07:13 AM | Well, since I started playing in the RPGA it will be like going home again. While I like the Greyhawk setting, I wish that there was more written on it in novel form so I could have learned more about the lands. As for regions, I've spent the last 7 years in the Shield Lands taking back inch by bloody inch of the country from Iuz *spit*, I can see it now, I get stuck in Myth Drannor, Anauroch, or some other gods forsaken region and have to fight to take that back. I'd like a nice civilized region for once like Waterdeep, Thay (they're not that evil, right?), or Sembia (they are that evil, as all merchants are). And therein lies the rub. They keep sating that Forgotten Realms is their most popular setting, having sold the most whatever. That isn't hard to do considering the absolute vacuum of Greyhawk product. You can't sell something that doesn't exist. Then we keep hearing how Greyhawk Ruins is the measuring stick for us, yet they basically sabotaged it just as it goes on sale. many people who would have bought it will now just borrow a copy, so I guarantee sales will be poor. Then Wizards will use the numbers to justify the end of Greyhawks existance. "See? Nobody bought this". Maybe if you had more than 6 books based on old mods in the last 20 years..... |
| Cynric08-20-07, 07:26 AM | Personally I do not like the Realms as a game world. However there are a few very important things to remember. 1. We game to have fun. Who really cares what the setting is. Most of us did not know much about Greyhawk due to the lack of published material when we started playing. Heck, I did not even know the game world existed. I was just looking for a regular group I did not have to run and cajole into playing. 2. How about a show of support for our often overlooked Triad, Meta-Regional co-ordinators and Circle guys? They put a lot of effort in, and deserve some faith on our part that they will do the absolute best they can with the new setting and rules. 3. Remember that it is a player run campaign from the point of we can make positive input. It is a lot easier to complain and say we are going to walk away, than to actually put something up and make the new campaign a good one. While the purse strings may be held by WOTC and they are trying to make money, they do allow us a significant amount of input into their game world, and design. 4. If they did not care about the transfer of 3.5 players to 4ed, why would they ask us to playtest it? 5. Remember that a lot of people do not have the play opportunities that some players (mainly continental U.S.) do. Some of us on the other side of the planet hav only just gotten our 2nd region up and running. If we can get over losing it, and the extra mods it brings, then maybe others should think about it. Personally I will be trying it and probably continue, after all it is the social setting and experience that defines the game. I think I will leave it at that before I get upset and start pointing fingers. |
| Fsi-Dib08-20-07, 07:29 AM | The setting isn't really important. The people are. Stop right there. Sure, people are the important thing, and no doubt will Forgotten Realms adore some people ... ... people I dislike greatly. FR fanboys. Greyhawk was neutral enough to not have any fanboys. |
| Lupo08-20-07, 08:10 AM | Stop right there. Sure, people are the important thing, and no doubt will Forgotten Realms adore some people ... ... people I dislike greatly. FR fanboys. Greyhawk was neutral enough to not have any fanboys. and the fan-boys will most likely not like the "Living" concept :D "what i can't play my drizzt-elminster-crossbreed clone with level 25 in my first adventure, heck i thought the campaign was announced as a true Forgotten Realms Campaign" :rant: i have encountered quite some of these players while trying to attract people to LG, mostly they dwindled away soon after their first adventure, some few are still playing at least those fan-boys will happily jump into the new campaign ;) and if the LFR campaign really uses a similar AR and access system as LG they will jump out of it as fast as hell again :D still i will give LFR a try - i hope that some of the LG players and volunteers are doing the same. ciao martin m. ps: the entire german/austrian aka innspa/adri/ahlissan triad has just announced retirement "due to lack of Forgotten Realms specific knowledge" |
| Gwumph08-20-07, 08:45 AM | A couple of questions Scon40 (you are the circle member answering the most) 1. How will the regions be decided? What player input will there be? How transparent will the process be? As stakeholders in a Living game, what will be the limit to our participation? 2. Core-Meta-Regional storyline arcs. This seems to be a big concern to many players including myself. Other than saying " you will have input" maybe you can give us some details of the limitations WOTC has put on the LR campaign. What year will it be starting. There was once a mongol invasion. Assuming Asia gets that area are we allowed to "invade" the civilized area's again. I think this is by far the most important aspect of people's concern, yet it doesn't seem to have been fully addressed. 3. Other than the core books, what will the costs be? It seems that alot of 4E revolves around online material. Are we going to be required to pay monthly fee's? If so, how much? Have younger gamers been taken into account (since most don't have credit cards)? Thank you for your time? Regards Simon Neville #41072427 Aka Gwumph |
| HassanSabbah08-20-07, 08:53 AM | Penn, it's not so much the setting that's upsetting me... It's the continuity and immersion. I have a lot invested in my 2 PCs. One has been around since year 3, and has a few year 2 mods under his belt. The reason I've enjoyed playing them was the 'fact' that their world would be around for a long time to come. This is like when you're watching a good action flick and you're at the best part, and suddenly the lights come on and the movie stops. Or you're reading, say, the LotR for the first time and end up watching a bad movie version when in the middle of the book. This negative feeling is augmented by the fact that the decision to end LG is purely marketing based (at least, that's the general impression). LG was (according to common wisdom) a strong campaign, growing stronger. The conversion process might have been painful, but LG has gone through those before. Even a reset would not have raised little ire. Thus, there was no intrinsic reason to let LG die. I'm sure the folk at the WotC counted their beans properly and can see a net gain from this, and I'm sure they are right (heck, how the hell would I know whether they were wrong or not), but LG did not have to die. LFR has too much baggage, as someone else has said. Too much baggage, and not all the baggage is good, nor harmonious. Details can bring a world alive, but baggage is a different thing. FR has suffered from bad, bad penmanship. How many truly good FR novels are there, among the gazillion or so canonical books? GH has the advantage by simply not having many books set in Flanaess. It's detailed enough, and yet blank enough a slate for the DM to put his mark on. It's not a jumble of cacophonious colors splashed on by countless hands and then made unerasable. I didn't like most FR novels I've read. I liked a few homegames we played in FR, but they were generic--kill rats in the basement kind of thing. I liked a few of the CRPGs set in Faerun; I rank BGII and its extension the best epic CRPG I ever played. Unfortunately, when I bought the gold box series, computers had already moved on to 486 dx2 66's so I found the 'move north move north move north move west pick up coin attackinventory' thing too much of a bother; I feel I'm missing good stuff there. I bought the 3.0 FR gaming material, and I found it very detailed, beautifully colored, but ultimately boring. As I said before, I'll make the move... only because it'll be the only living campaign I'll be able to play FtF. But I very much doubt I'll have the same enthusiasm I had for the LG. I will definitely *not* buy any book that is not core, and I'll wait for the errata first. Baris |
| HassanSabbah08-20-07, 08:55 AM | Gwumph, the payment thing was answered by Steven a few posts up. He said that he's pretty sure it will not be pay to play, and you won't pay to access. Online play part... He said wait for the announcement. |
| The_Jester08-20-07, 10:24 AM | I'm really, really, really, really torn. I'm loving LG despite its flaws and have only really been playing for a year and a half so there's a tonn of life left in my characters. So I'm feeling quite betrayed and saddened I'll never get to see these fun characters through to their end. But I enjoy the Realms alot more and would love to get into a Living campaign in year one. I'd love to try and leave my mark in the Campaign setting. And it'd be fun to see this horde of low-level heroes unleashed into the Realms forever shifting people's attitudes of the world as only fit for high-level gods-characters. BUT I'm still feeling betrayed and not sure I want to support a new edition and buy all new books so soon (yes, voting with my wallet). And now I know how long 3E lasted (7 1/2 years with the last 1/2 being swan song) and how there was an .5 extension in the middle I know the time before 5E might very well be shorter or at most the same length I'm not sure it's worth getting involved in a "living" campaign that's going to have a shorter lifespan than some terminally ill people. We'll barely be able to make a dent in the Realms... Really, it comes down to one still completely unknown factor. Region. If I get a region I think is cool I might throw myself into LFR. If I get one that's "eh" I'll probably just ignore it and maybe do the occasional mod. |
| Swordlight08-20-07, 11:16 AM | I am in for Living FR. The Realms had been the setting of my major home campaigns before I got into LG. (No big tie ins-with "main characters", but the gods cover a variety of interesting areas, and the world is pretty much open to anything D&D.) I have played Basic, Expert, Advanced, 2nd Ed, 3.0, & 3.5 D&D and I do think that the creativity and advancement has progressed well. I sincerely hope it continues to do so... and I believe it will. That said; I REALLY have enjoyed Living Greyhawk. The world, the campaign, the players, and the enthusiasm. I will play it to the end with gusto! To those of you who have the heart - see you at the gaming tables! |
| LachlarlanIII08-20-07, 11:30 AM | Considering that the Realms is my preferred setting, the only things that would stop me are: lack of a local gaming group and quality of the 4th edition rule set. |
| Dominick08-20-07, 11:31 AM | You can have Chult Ken. We in Florida want Cormyr, Land of the Purple Dragon.:P ---> Larry <--- I am in on LFR. I will play the heck out of LG until then. I second the bid for Cormyr, not that I didn't like dwarves... |
| TWG_Prometheus08-20-07, 11:41 AM | My decision will hinge on the rules set, both in terms of the core 4th edition books and the rules specific to Living Forgotten Realms. If I like what I see, I'll likely continue playing. If I don't...well there are always other things to do with my time. The only other thing I have to comment on is the reaction I've seen by many expressing disappointment that they'll have to leave their characters behind. Why do that? Sure, they may get reset back to level 1, but as long as the 4th edition rules allow for a viable build of a similar character, they should be playable. Most of our characters probably aren't so far intertwined with the Greyhawk setting that they couldn't be transplanted even if there's a little grief in the process. Don't leave your characters behind, Reincarnate them into LFR...assuming that you decide to play it. |
| MichaelAhlf08-20-07, 11:49 AM | The only other thing I have to comment on is the reaction I've seen by many expressing disappointment that they'll have to leave their characters behind. Why do that? Sure, they may get reset back to level 1, but as long as the 4th edition rules allow for a viable build of a similar character, they should be playable. Most of our characters probably aren't so far intertwined with the Greyhawk setting that they couldn't be transplanted even if there's a little grief in the process. For fighter characters? Maybe. A big dumb brute is a big dumb brute. Mages? Possibly, though less so - most of our mages are involved in regional meta-orgs and situations that just aren't replicable in the screwed-up FR setting. Bards and odd builds? Depends on the build. Paladins and Clerics? Are you kidding? Tell you what. I'll play. I'm bringing a Cleric of Molaho Khem and a Paladin of Heward. |
| Arassuil08-20-07, 12:09 PM | Well I, like many, am saddened to see LG go. However, I will probably try out Living (Forgotten) Realms out. This is assuming there is enough people locally to make it worthwhile. Since I don't know much about Forgotten Realms, it'll make things interesting for me. I just hope that it has a lot (if not all) of the cool character options that LG has right now. |
| Harliquinn08-20-07, 12:19 PM | One thing I don't understand in all the upset posts is the following sentiment: "I worked my butt off for LG all these years and now it's ending." The results of you working your butt off was many years of fun, engaging, rewarding play experiences (if the stories are to be believed). Why does the campaign ending in a year suddenly invalidate all the enjoyment you got from playing your characters for the last 6 years? Everything comes to an end: TV shows, movie franchises, Dungeon magazine adventure paths, home campaigns, and others. Because something is ending does not mean it was a waste to put in any effort. This goes for those saying "No one will put effort into it because it's ending." Why not put in the effort to make the conclusion of the campaign memorable and exciting for all those who will be taking part? Make it a campaign conclusion to remember for years to come; something you can talk about at the tables for Living Realms, hoping that the new campaign can be just as successful? John |
| TetsujinOni08-20-07, 12:19 PM | Don't leave your characters behind, Reincarnate them into LFR...assuming that you decide to play it. And how do you reincarnate a dwarven cleric of Gendwar Argrim who fell backwards in to the Dreadwalkers in Keoland because of what he found out is lurking in the Dreadwood, and hiding behind their nobles? (The character was headed for Clrx/Rgr1-2/Abo from the things he found out). And so much for the patriot wizards who wanted to reshape their region's primary caster meta-org from the inside. Why not have lofty goals with your PCs, right? The conversion across game worlds is tough. Similar concepts can be conceived but replaying the characters should result in completely different stories... which may not be the ones you wanted to explore with the character in the first place. Let's put Han Solo on Babylon 5 and see how well THAT story works. There's room in both for that sort of scoundrel, right? |
| Andyr08-20-07, 01:24 PM | I was just about to start playing LG when this was all announced--I'll try to play LG until its demise, and am quite happy to switch to LFR (which has been the setting I've played in most since I began in 2001), although I am interested to see how all the novels and other source material are integrated. |
| Hariman08-20-07, 01:29 PM | And how do you reincarnate a dwarven cleric of Gendwar Argrim who fell backwards in to the Dreadwalkers in Keoland because of what he found out is lurking in the Dreadwood, and hiding behind their nobles? (The character was headed for Clrx/Rgr1-2/Abo from the things he found out). And so much for the patriot wizards who wanted to reshape their region's primary caster meta-org from the inside. Why not have lofty goals with your PCs, right? The conversion across game worlds is tough. Similar concepts can be conceived but replaying the characters should result in completely different stories... which may not be the ones you wanted to explore with the character in the first place. Let's put Han Solo on Babylon 5 and see how well THAT story works. There's room in both for that sort of scoundrel, right? Or we could put Marcus in Star Wars. I can see it now, Marcus is flipping his Minbari fighting pike in and out to annoy chewbacca and gets told: "Wookies tend to rip peoples arms off when they get annoyed enough." I understand how the exact same story is hard to duplicate. But D&D is often about having fun with what you get. I never planned on my character Nevix Dying four times, but it makes a great story. I never planned on him getting enslaved either, so his hatred of the Pomarj and orcs is a new thing. I never planned on him fighting drow and duergar, but he loves fighting them because they die easier than most other enemies. If a character gets reincarnated into a new campaign, the base character stays the same, but what happens to him and how it affects him is what changes. It might be just as fun to have your dwarf start hating undead because he gets smacked around by them in a haunted crypt, and joins an undead slaying metaorg because of it. And, admittedly, you really can't recreate a cleric dedicated to a campaign specific god. But a new cleric, or changing the old cleric's personality and faith can make another fun character. Yes, it sucks that our old characters will retire. But we can always make new ones or import the old ones. Plus, we still got to play our old character, and I know I'll have fond memories of my current LG characters for a long time. |
| Zanzibax08-20-07, 01:31 PM | Screw it...I'm gone. |
| TetsujinOni08-20-07, 02:35 PM | Screw it...I'm gone. *waves* I'm very curious how they're going to handle the focal change from novel-style epic-story setting to Living setting, as the tools that work well for one type of story are so dramatically different from the other... as my years-long Ars Magica campaign players would attest. |
| TWG_Prometheus08-20-07, 02:52 PM | Of course your characters won't be able to change over to the new setting with exactly their same deity and with events X, Y and Z in their background. I didn't say that the conversion would be easy or painless. My characters aren't unattached to the Greyhawk campaign setting either, and if I really wanted to, I could point out dozens of things about each character that would make them 'Greyhawk-only'. I don't choose to look at it that way, however. There are pieces of each character that can't possibly be setting-specific, however. If you're invested that heavily into a character, however, you probably have tons of things that you love about them that would translate across the boundary though. If absolutely nothing else will work, you can always reboot them to be the same character they were when you started, with possible deity and/or nationality swaps. You can have a dwarf with a Gendwar Argrim personality that worships a Faerun god if you want to...nothing wrong with that. It won't always be easy, and you might have to strip out large amounts of their background to make it work, but it's not impossible. If you love a character, there will almost always be something about them that you still love even if you strip away all their levels, experiences and background events. Whether each player will choose to allow their character to be reborn into the new campaign setting or not is an individual one, and won't be easy for most if they choose to do so, but it's still a choice. The player's choice, not WotC's. |
| wagnert08-20-07, 04:01 PM | I started out in a generic home campaign. Later I played in a home campaign that had Greyhawk on one continent and Forgotten Realms on the other and did a lot of travel back and forth. When I first joined RPGA I spent years in the Living City campaign, and when Living Greyhawk started I was there in Year 1 and forward. I migrated many home campaign characters to LG and some LC characters to LG. I'll just migrate these characters to LFR. Can we play Snow Elves and Centaurs in LFR? How about Githzerai? Tom Wagner (player of 12 different PCs from six regions) |
| TWG_Prometheus08-20-07, 04:04 PM | I started out in a generic home campaign. Later I played in a home campaign that had Greyhawk on one continent and Forgotten Realms on the other and did a lot of travel back and forth. When I first joined RPGA I spent years in the Living City campaign, and when Living Greyhawk started I was there in Year 1 and forward. I migrated many home campaign characters to LG and some LC characters to LG. I'll just migrate these characters to LFR. Can we play Snow Elves and Centaurs in LFR? How about Githzerai? Tom Wagner (player of 12 different PCs from six regions) Hehe, OK. Centaurs and Kolbolds PCs probably wouldn't survive a move over to LFR. Snow Elves are similar enough in concept to other elves that you can probably make-believe your way through the barrier. To actually answer Tom's question: We don't know. I wouldn't expect much default access to monstrous races, though. |
| TetsujinOni08-20-07, 04:21 PM | There are pieces of each character that can't possibly be setting-specific, however. If you're invested that heavily into a character, however, you probably have tons of things that you love about them that would translate across the boundary though. Characters are really story-specific... Archetypes are not. You can certainly move AngstBoy the Gendwar Argrim follower under a new deity and flex similar roleplay possibilities... but it's playing the archetype, not the character. That was the only point I was arguing against your position. Too early to tell what characters' stories I want to chase in LFR (or if I want to chase in LFR... separate issues, at that)... but I do know I want to chase down a certain entity from Keoland's plot arcs as part of MY big finish of the campaign! And now I curse the fact that I started last October even *more*.... |
| scon4008-20-07, 07:32 PM | A couple of questions Scon40 (you are the circle member answering the most) I'll answer as best I can, but I don't know many of the details of the campaign as they haven't been formalized and announced yet. 1. How will the regions be decided? What player input will there be? How transparent will the process be? As stakeholders in a Living game, what will be the limit to our participation? I assume Chris Tulach and others with the RPGA/WotC staff will be deciding which regions are used and where they get assigned based on plans for the FR in product, the ability of making the region a good place for PCs to be based in a Living Campaign, play numbers, etc. I doubt the player base will be asked to provide specific input on what region they want, but it couldn't hurt to let them know what you'd like to see ... it might influence their final decision. As with other RPGA campaigns, the staff makes the decisions for the setting of play. 2. Core-Meta-Regional storyline arcs. This seems to be a big concern to many players including myself. Other than saying " you will have input" maybe you can give us some details of the limitations WOTC has put on the LR campaign. I don't recall saying you would have input. What I said is that the players will affect the campaign and the setting. As in, PC actions will effect results, and the results in the campaign count for both the campaign and the actual FR setting. This is my understanding of how it will work. What year will it be starting. There was once a mongol invasion. Assuming Asia gets that area are we allowed to "invade" the civilized area's again. I think this is by far the most important aspect of people's concern, yet it doesn't seem to have been fully addressed. I'm not sure if it is official decided or officially announced. I don't know the answer to this one. 3. Other than the core books, what will the costs be? Not something I have knowledge of, but my understanding is that the only costs will be the core books to play. After that, you'd only be paying for extras, like online tools. But you'll have to wait for an official announcement on that. |
| scon4008-20-07, 07:35 PM | If you take a priceless work of art, a painting or diary or a novel, and you shred it or burn it or remove it from the world... then it's gone. The value has vanished as much as possible. THAT is what you are talking about doing to Living Greyhawk. It will not "live on after us." It will be DEAD. So if I write a beloved series of novels and I wrap the series up, they suddenly are torn to pieces by phantasms and then spontaneously combust? I'm sorry, but you missed the point I was trying to make. And I'm not sure you really want to get the point, because it destroys some of the fuel for your tirades here. |
| haferka08-20-07, 08:06 PM | I will definitly be joining the Realms.. I started LG when it was 4+ years old.. and I still think it had PLENTY of life left in it.. but its not my decision.. and I think the realms could be a pretty fun place. I REALLY hope that they offer the existing LG circle/triad possitions in the new LFR campaign.. and I HOPE that they stick with the LG regional system. You guys have done an AWSOME job.. I have regrets.. like not seeing my half-fey child grow to adulthood. but.. I have hope of creating new memories with the new campaign .. just as memorable. And dont forget.. we still have 9 months of gaming.. I want to finish red hand of doom and complete a special mission to retire my druid as a blighter before I leave the BK. |
| GrahamWills08-21-07, 08:44 AM | I will continue to play any game system that provides fun. What other sensible choice is there? My travels with RPGA gaming have already been quite long: * Played Cthulhu and Rolemaster, then they stopped allowing that, so I switched to ... * Living Verge, until they dropped that in favor of ... * Living Force, until they finished that arc, but at that stage i had already started ... * Living Greyhawk, which they have now finished, so I will give a try to ... * LFR I realize there are a number of people who have played nothing but LGR. basically the advice for them is the same as the advice given to those who invest all their money in one company ... diversify! The people who are most upset and most appear likely to leave RPGA play are the ones who have not diversified. Play something else as well as LGR over the next 15 months. Then, if you hate LFR, you won't be hosed. - Graham Wills |
| Sneilius08-21-07, 04:11 PM | I won't. There are non-RPGA megacampaigns. I will be playing one or more of them. To anyone else not interested in Forgotten Realms or Eberron, but still interested in a megacampaign, I suggest you check them out. Nothing against people who like the 2 campaigns still being supported by the RPGA, just not my cup of tea. I might try the Star Wars one though if I'm at a con and have the time. But in general I will be sticking to independent megacampaigns. Who knows, maybe they will make a 4.0 Living Greyhawk someday, may take a few years, but always in motion is the future. |
| Kelios_Lyonsmane08-24-07, 01:59 PM | I think i will make the move but...The one thing that :censored: me off is the 4th edition , the 3.5. was good , It would have been nice if they would of think of balance in the new rules and Classes/Prestige Classes instead of printing a book a month but ... That said i started playing D&D in the red Box then FR in the second eddition . FR is my favored setting :love: so goind from LG to LFR is not a big deal for me but the money scam :$$: is . Just wait and see , 4.5 is comming :rant: . P.S. NO , i will NOT buy the new books |
| solbergb08-24-07, 08:09 PM | I can predict only one of three things. 1. Will I play more LG in 2007-2008? Yes. More than I would have. I suspect the convention demand will be huge. 2. Will 4x be better, worse or same as 3.x in its abiltiy to make interesting characters? I don't know, but I think the odds are it will be a decent game system. I've played dozens. Only if they make the character options too narrow or have lots of options but only a few are any good will it fail as a system. If it does though, I won't move to Realms. I'm expecting though, that the game system will be ok. 3. Will Realms have sufficient content to support the real reason I play RPGA? Ie, gaming when I want it, when my schedule permits, plus the ability to get gaming at home or online when I can scrounge up a GM or when I wnat to GM (sufficient player pool to play at roughly any time). I'm hopeful here, the people making the decisions have two successful global campaings to draw from (learning from both successes and mistakes of both). But I can't predict the odds, except that I think the odds that 4.x will be a decent game system is somewhat higher than the odds that RPGA won't do something (or be forced to do something) that somehow damages the ecosystem of authors, editors, playtesters, GM's and players that supports our existing base. So I'm guardedly optomistic. I think the most likely outcome is I'll be doing Realms in 2009 (probably not in 2008, I'll be spending all my gaming hours on LG) |
| solbergb08-24-07, 08:14 PM | I realize there are a number of people who have played nothing but LGR. basically the advice for them is the same as the advice given to those who invest all their money in one company ... diversify! The people who are most upset and most appear likely to leave RPGA play are the ones who have not diversified. Play something else as well as LGR over the next 15 months. Then, if you hate LFR, you won't be hosed. - Graham Wills The problem is there isn't anything out there very much like Living Greyhawk at the moment. There are large shared campaigns with character continuity yes, but not campaigns with the ability to draw 100-150 tables to a convention routinely, nor that produce more content than anybody can play. I don't want to have characters scattered in half a dozen campaigns. I prefer a focus. I started LG because it seemed to have on-demand gaming. If the people and games hadn't been of high quality, my wife and I would not have stayed. But it's that, more than anything else, that makes it unique. The D&D level bump campaigns were poorly supported and had very limited drawing power (I hear they're more popular as homegames - which makes sense, if you are still at the point in your life where scheduling the same half dozen people every week is actually possible). The other megacampaigns (Blackmoor?) don't seem to have the visible presence. They may be out there but it's not so easy to find out how to join or to find people to play with. |
| dkay80708-24-07, 08:21 PM | I absolutely will. I love the game of D&D, and I think all of the campaign settings are interesting in their own ways. Living campaigns are my preferred way of playing the game (and for a while now, my only way) because I have the chance to make a global impact with my PC's actions and have the chance to connect with players from all over. Some guy from England came up to me at Gen Con and asked "Are you the guy that killed Evard?" That sort of thing doesn't happen in a home game. Fortunately, I'm a pretty big fan of FR anyway, so the move shouldn't be too problematic. I like that it has a far richer storyline than Greyhawk (you can't argue with that) and I can only imagine what some of the best LG writers will do with that much history at their disposal. Give Rashemen to New England! No one else is asking for it! Berserkers all the way. |
| TheBlackFlail08-24-07, 09:14 PM | Give Rashemen to New England! No one else is asking for it! Berserkers all the way. Rashemen is wholly unsuited as a player region. Female spellcasters must join the witches and male spellcasters must either join the Vremeyoni (sp?) and become essentially NPCs or be exiled on pain of death. Foreign spellcasters aren't terribly welcome either. Either the campaigns staff would have to completely ignore the regional flavor restrictions, or simply up and rewrite them. Every other Unapproachable East nation is far more accommodating as a player region, including Thay (where as long as you pay your entry and travel taxes, don't wear red robes, and don't cause trouble, everyone is welcome). |
| dkay80708-24-07, 11:58 PM | Rashemen is wholly unsuited as a player region. Female spellcasters must join the witches and male spellcasters must either join the Vremeyoni (sp?) and become essentially NPCs or be exiled on pain of death. Foreign spellcasters aren't terribly welcome either. Either the campaigns staff would have to completely ignore the regional flavor restrictions, or simply up and rewrite them. Every other Unapproachable East nation is far more accommodating as a player region, including Thay (where as long as you pay your entry and travel taxes, don't wear red robes, and don't cause trouble, everyone is welcome). I think you're going to the extreme a little bit. In Bissel (LG), every PC MUST join the army - it could easily be a similar situation with spellcasters in Rashemen. Also, take a look at BK (LG) - it's Iuz's playground and yet it's such a popular and FUN region. People even play Paladins there! Any region can be made suitable depending on how it is structured. I just hope that no one gets Waterdeep because that would be quite unfair. Waterdeep seems like perfect core region fodder. Thay seems like another such place (kind of like the Scarlet Brotherhood lands in LG). Depending on what happens to the FR timeline (I've heard rumors that LFR will be set 100 years in the future or something like that and many things will have changed drastically), none of this speculation may even matter. |
| LGMoses08-25-07, 12:11 AM | Give Rashemen to New England! No one else is asking for it! Berserkers all the way. hey hey buddy! I've been calling Rashemen for Alabama since I heard about this. I've got ideas for a barbarian in my head already and the warrior lodges would make awesome meta-orgs. Female witches are often permitted to travel and I believe even the old men get their dejemma. Yeah Rashemen = Alabama so give it to us PLEASE! |
| dkay80708-25-07, 12:21 AM | hey hey buddy! I've been calling Rashemen for Alabama since I heard about this. I've got ideas for a barbarian in my head already and the warrior lodges would make awesome meta-orgs. Female witches are often permitted to travel and I believe even the old men get their dejemma. Yeah Rashemen = Alabama so give it to us PLEASE! Okay, looks like we're going to have to roll-off! *picks up a d20* |
| LGMoses08-25-07, 12:28 AM | Lol, that was the first thing on my "to do list" when I heard about LFR. I polled my local players and everything. The result was Rashemen with the Dalelands running a second. I called "dibs". So please Chris Tulach, Steve Conforti. Remember: Alabama=Rashemen. :D My player base is ready for berserker lodges!!!!:fight!: |
| jtrain980108-25-07, 09:34 AM | I am of the mind set that nothing is permanent everything changes in life. This is just another change in life and we move on. Yes, I will admit that I am slightly bummed out with all the time I have put into my character ,but that causes unnecessary anguish. Time to move on. As for the Realms? I might stick with halflings and go with it. Perhaps I can get another Dread "Land" Pirate. (I never did buy that boat) ;) |
| Marcia_S08-25-07, 12:09 PM | Wow, where to begin? Forgotten Reams was one of my campaign settings 20 years ago. I read all the books, ran the mods, had a slew of characters myself, and a regular Saturday gaming group. Eventually I got out of it because the novels got REALLY bad, so much so that I often stopped reading them halfway in and re-sold or gave away the entire 3 book series that they were part of. The "splat" books started coming out faster than I could afford to buy them and their content wasn't very good, but the players insisted on wanting to use them. Sigh.... I ended up abandoning FR and D&D in about 89-90, switching to other game systems (GURPS, Star Wars, Star Trek, Rolemaster, In Nomine, Shadowrun, etc.) until 3.0 came out. I went to my first "convention" at a local elementary school in 2002. One game that I was hoping to play fell through, but they had space at an LG table, so I quickly threw together a character and played. I've been playing RPGA games ever since (LC, LG, LF, LA, LKoK, LDS, LSpy, LJ, LD, LotGR, MoH, XE). Through my RPGA contacts, I've gotten hooked up with several other organized play campaigns that I'm enjoying the heck out of, too. I was excited by LotGR, but terribly disappointed by it. It was advertised as FR, but except for character creation and the deity lists, the mods themselves didn't have ANY of the FR "feel" to them,. The mods, especially the "specials", were just over-the-top dungeon crawls designed to kill characters and frustrate players/GMs. The "world" didn't seem to come into play at all. If LFR ends up being like LotGR, it will not hold any appeal for me and I won't waste my money on it. I'll play quite literally ANYTHING and have over the past 27 years - D&D, fantasy, medieval, historical, modern day, sci-fi, space, mutant, superhero, apocalyptic, horror, d20, d100, d6, diceless. I'm happily playing in 6-8 different organized play campaigns right now, both RPGA and independent. I'll give 4e and LFR a try at DDXP, but if they don't pan out, I've got plenty of options. Marcia |
| babanathie08-26-07, 09:07 AM | Not making the move to the Forgotten Realms. Sorry, I never liked the setting and am pretty sure I never will. I will try the new Star Wars campaign, but I will probably be playing the "Living Spycraft" setting. |
| Evanta08-26-07, 09:10 PM | I will play Eberron, Living Realms will be dependent on whether my friends as a whole will be migrating over also. I don't expect to be playing it as much as greyhawk. |
| clannagh08-26-07, 09:56 PM | no LFR for me amusingly .. my attempts to gradually remove my characters from play through mishap have not met with great success so far. Over the weekend i ran my highest character with time units (level 6 paladin gnome) in a conference in Brisbane and after ride-by attacking on her flying dog with divine sacrifice running 4 times in a row (doing 60 to 90 damage a hit) managed to drop herself to 8 hp (one more rideby and she would have made herself unconscious) and annoy the bad guys enough to cop a full double scorching ray in the face for 50 odd total damage. Good-oh, I say, lets reincarnate even though she has the cash for a raise dead and see if she can retire as a gnoll . nope ... she rolls up wood elf which actually improves her stats and qualifies her for a unicorn special mount .. hmmmmm *mutters* oh well that is LG |
| tvknight41508-27-07, 02:00 PM | It will be heavily dependent on the quality of the new rules. If 4.0 is an improvement over 3.x, I'll probably make the switch. If the rules aren't so good, I will probably opt out completely (might pick up the PHB for reference). |
| Greyson08-27-07, 06:33 PM | I'm curious about it, how many people will be playing Living Realm? I shall be playing and judging in Living Forgotten Realms. I am excited about it and the new edition of the game. I do not plan on being on my regional triad, again. But, I'll be there supporting the hobby, the game and other players. |
| JamesMaissen08-27-07, 06:35 PM | The problem is there isn't anything out there very much like Living Greyhawk at the moment. There are large shared campaigns with character continuity yes, but not campaigns with the ability to draw 100-150 tables to a convention routinely, nor that produce more content than anybody can play. I don't want to have characters scattered in half a dozen campaigns. I prefer a focus. You seem to have a fairly tight nit group out west, why not get together with everyone and pick one of the campaigns that's out there that consensus agrees upon? You should be able to get a sizable group that way and be almost instantly beyond the annoying growth area that many areas would otherwise have to go through, James |
| solbergb08-27-07, 06:41 PM | We have a deep judge and author pool in the bay area, and we pretty much get along without a lot of grudges or drama, but the idea that we could as a group make the decision to pick a campaign and pull everyone along, including the playerbase is - optomistic. Even among the core authors, organizers, playtesters, they all have their own ideas of how things should go. Most I think would rather work with a supported global campaign than try to evangalize a move to an existing campaign. I could be wrong, but I'm barely on the edge of those who do the organization (I'm an active judge, I get tapped for playtests sometimes and I very rarely do a bit of writing) It's likely only to happen if both 4.0 and the Living Realms are really bad. So bad that Living Realms can't draw players anymore. Eg, Living Realms campaign structure having more in common with Green Regent than LG and 4.0 resembling the 1970s D&D basic set in what characters you make thana modern game system |