Post/Author/DateTime	Post
_metz_ 08-19-07, 12:07 AM	How will this new campaign work? 1. Will there be level bumps that make our high level characters meaningless and not truly developed? (If I wanted to prebuy a high level character and just hit things I'd play World of Warcraft!) ARE THERE GOING TO BE ARs/TUs ETC? 2. Will regions and triads etc even matter anymore? will we get any input or just have to put up with stuff that _may_ be badly written or ill conceived? WILL THERE BE ANY PLAYER INPUT? 3. Will all of us with high level characters NOW have to all start at level 1 and go back to fighting kobolds/goblins and orcs for at least a whole freaking year or two before we get back to the high level stuff? IS THERE GOING TO BE ANY CONVERSION OR OPPORTUNITY TO ENTICE ESTABLISHED GAMERS OVER? 4. Is this just essentially turning DnD into a videogame? Or are our actions actually going to shape this new campaign world instead of just taking part in it? DO WE AS LIVING CAMPAIGN MEMBERS INFLUENCE WHAT IS HAPPENING? - Others should add serious questions as well I think, and I don't believe it is too much to hope that we will eventually get an answer.
clannagh 08-19-07, 12:11 AM	4. Is this just essentially turning DnD into a videogame? I have some unease about the rumoured new 4th edition rules doing that. There seems to be a bit of "trim it up for better hack and slash for the kiddies with money " going on. But time will tell .. we havent seen anything solid yet.
babanathie 08-19-07, 12:13 AM	How will this new campaign work? 1. Will there be level bumps that make our high level characters meaningless and not truly developed? (If I wanted to prebuy a high level character and just hit things I'd play World of Warcraft!) ARE THERE GOING TO BE ARs/TUs ETC? 2. Will regions and triads etc even matter anymore? will we get any input or just have to put up with silly WoTc stuff that is usually badly written, and ill conceived? WILL THERE BE ANY PLAYER INPUT? 3. Will all of us with high level characters NOW have to all start at level 1 and go back to fighting kobolds/goblins and orcs for at least a whole freaking year or two before we get back to the high level stuff? IS THERE GOING TO BE ANY CONVERSION OR OPPORTUNITY TO ENTICE ESTABLISHED GAMERS OVER? 4. Is this just essentially turning DnD into a videogame? Or are our actions actually going to shape this new campaign world instead of just taking part in it? DO WE AS LIVING CAMPAIGN MEMBERS INFLUENCE WHAT IS HAPPENING? - Others should add serious questions as well I think, and I don't believe it is too much to hope that we will eventually get an answer. 1. Don't know. 2. They haven't listen to LG player input; so, if you're an LG player then you're out of luck. Otherwise you're input is welcome. :P 3. New campaign will probably have new characters. 4. No idea. We'll see. I actually like most of the online stuff they were talking about so far. I think the general situation is that WotC knows that everyone complains (I'm doing it right now); so, they'll just do what they think is right (for the pocketbook).
Grimslade2001 08-19-07, 12:54 AM	How will this new campaign work? 1. Will there be level bumps that make our high level characters meaningless and not truly developed? (If I wanted to prebuy a high level character and just hit things I'd play World of Warcraft!) ARE THERE GOING TO BE ARs/TUs ETC? 2. Will regions and triads etc even matter anymore? will we get any input or just have to put up with stuff that _may_ be badly written or ill conceived? WILL THERE BE ANY PLAYER INPUT? 3. Will all of us with high level characters NOW have to all start at level 1 and go back to fighting kobolds/goblins and orcs for at least a whole freaking year or two before we get back to the high level stuff? IS THERE GOING TO BE ANY CONVERSION OR OPPORTUNITY TO ENTICE ESTABLISHED GAMERS OVER? 4. Is this just essentially turning DnD into a videogame? Or are our actions actually going to shape this new campaign world instead of just taking part in it? DO WE AS LIVING CAMPAIGN MEMBERS INFLUENCE WHAT IS HAPPENING? - Others should add serious questions as well I think, and I don't believe it is too much to hope that we will eventually get an answer. 1. Don't know. Tulach says we'll find out in September. My assumption is they will stick with the LG formula but set in the Realms. No level bumps. ARs TUs Regional, Meta-Regional and Core, plus adaptables to sell adventure books. Maybe not meta-regional. 2. See #1 for official. I hope there will be the triad system using volunteer writers to create an arcing 5 year plot line. The volunteers are what makes a Living Campaign work. 3. Definitive answer to this. No conversion. There will be no conversion notes for home campaigns from 3E to 4E, so no converting LG to LFR. 4. Is this a question about Living Realms or 4E? Drop the hyperbole about 'turning into a compter game' and your question is valid. How much room will the new campaign have to impact the setting? Will Living Realms set canon? Will they have to adhere to novel canon as it is added? Will the regional level (provided there is a regional level) have limited autonomy to create a regional campaign or will everything be tightly controlled from RPGA HQ? The added complexity of having an active setting as opposed to Greyhawk's relatively inert one will be a challenge. What happens to the campaign when the next war of the Spider Queen happens? It provides some food for thought.
MatteBlack 08-19-07, 12:54 AM	3. Will all of us with high level characters NOW have to all start at level 1 and go back to fighting kobolds/goblins and orcs for at least a whole freaking year or two before we get back to the high level stuff? IS THERE GOING TO BE ANY CONVERSION OR OPPORTUNITY TO ENTICE ESTABLISHED GAMERS OVER? I wonder if enticing players who feel they need level advantages in a brand new game is a wise decision. We'd all love some respect for our time as a loyal player but, conversion between game worlds sounds alot like asking for free levels. It's going to be a new game world and it will probably be best if everyone starts out on the ground floor. Anything beyond something along the lines of the rewards system would seem inappropriate to me. With the changes made to the game system, I would expect fighting even goblins and kobolds in another world to be a fresh experience and easing in to higher levels may minimize the problems of players and DMs adjusting to a new ruleset.
LGMoses 08-19-07, 12:57 AM	I'd hope that LF is set up like LG, access system and all. I'd spent a long time getting out of FR to get more into LG. Now I feel kind of ...dirty...
WolfStar76 08-19-07, 01:41 AM	Ian made it VERY clear at the member's meeting that Living Forgotten Realms will NOT have level bumps. That's still going to be a vestige of the D&D Campaigns, and not the Living Campaigns.
WolfStar76 08-19-07, 01:44 AM	Will Living Realms set canon? Will they have to adhere to novel canon as it is added? They talked at the member's meeting about working with the novel team to make canon creation bi-directional. I forget who was speaking (Ian or Chris) at the time, but it was said that what happens in the novels would influence LFR. Likewise, LFR plotlines would be worked into the novels. Sounds like a lot of work and communication to me, but a VERY cool concept if it pans out.
LGMoses 08-19-07, 01:47 AM	so will drizzt be a regular feature and will all of our quests be handed out by Elminster?
Eric Anondson 08-19-07, 02:17 AM	They talked at the member's meeting about working with the novel team to make canon creation bi-directional. I forget who was speaking (Ian or Chris) at the time, but it was said that what happens in the novels would influence LFR. Likewise, LFR plotlines would be worked into the novels. Sounds like a lot of work and communication to me, but a VERY cool concept if it pans out.I'll believe it when I see it. I don't think it will happen. IMO, the way it will work out is the novel FR and Living FR will fork from each other and FR fans will not be pleased.
Umbra_Kaitou 08-19-07, 02:29 AM	How will this new campaign work? 2. Will regions and triads etc even matter anymore? will we get any input or just have to put up with stuff that _may_ be badly written or ill conceived? WILL THERE BE ANY PLAYER INPUT? Yes, from the reports I've gotten from friends at Gencon, they are already accepting aplications there for people who want to help set everything up again, there will be regions, and they will be forming triads. So regarding wrtiing I can't immagine a huge difference except balancing it in with novel canon and living canon.
GreatSiron 08-19-07, 02:54 AM	so will drizzt be a regular feature and will all of our quests be handed out by Elminster? Don't even joke about that.
babanathie 08-19-07, 02:59 AM	Yes, from the reports I've gotten from friends at Gencon, they are already accepting aplications there for people who want to help set everything up again, there will be regions, and they will be forming triads. So regarding wrtiing I can't immagine a huge difference except balancing it in with novel canon and living canon. And WotC thought LG was a nightmare at times. Try to balance the FR novels and a living campaign will be impossible. I mean we are talking about a company that sent me three DnD Reward Program Membership Cards, because they thought they messed up on the first (two) mailings. Of course right after that they failed to mail the last set of campaign cards, or the ones before that. Don't get me wrong, there are companies that are alot worse than Wizards. But, WotC does not seem to be very good at things outside of printing books and cards. Outside of LG, most of the "other" projects were not that great. Remember E-Tools when it first came out, or was it called Master-Tools. DnD rewards would have been better organized and executed. I have taken the Herald DM Test twice since they lost my original file. Creating another successful living campaign that is canon with a bunch of canon novels that don't support each other is difficult. Sorry, I have to give a "no confidence" vote. Living City failed, Living Force was so so. Mark of Heroes failed. Xen'drik Campaigns is so so, but not good enough to keep around. Yeah, going with "no confidence."
LGMoses 08-19-07, 07:40 AM	Creating another successful living campaign that is canon with a bunch of canon novels that don't support each other is difficult. Sorry, I have to give a "no confidence" vote. Living City failed, Living Force was so so. Mark of Heroes failed. Xen'drik Campaigns is so so, but not good enough to keep around. Yeah, going with "no confidence." Thats my biggest worry. I'm ready for LFR, but I'm afraid its going to have a lot of delays and hiccups as they try and balance all that stuff out. Little is perfect and all of the FR players that I know of are... well "fanboys" and nothing will slip. Basically, if I was running it and forgot to mention there were a lot of cats in Baldur's Gate I'd hear about it. But yeah, the administration to work all of that canon in there is going to be very difficult. Then they're using a lot of the old triad members and I'm sure most of them aren't up to date on the Realms. So we're probably going to have some bad hiccups here at the start. But if they can pull it off and have loads of mods available like they did with LG I'll be very pleased.
scon40 08-19-07, 01:14 PM	1. Will there be level bumps No level bumps. 2. Will regions and triads etc even matter anymore? Yes. Like in LG, the regional/triad divisions will influence where the story goes and how the adventures feel, for example. 3. Will all of us with high level characters NOW have to all start at level 1 Yes. No freebies to start at a higher level. Just like when LG started. 4. Is this just essentially turning DnD into a videogame? Or are our actions actually going to shape this new campaign world instead of just taking part in it? No, not a videogame. WotC is offering new technical tools to improve your game. None are required to play and enjoy the game. Your actions will influence the campaign.
scon40 08-19-07, 01:15 PM	The plan is definitely to have loads of modules to play in year one. More details to follow from the RPGA itself, but they definitely have plans to give lots of play opportunities (one of the benefits of playing LG was lots of opps and they recognize that).
NiTessine 08-19-07, 01:42 PM	Yes. Like in LG, the regional/triad divisions will influence where the story goes and how the adventures feel, for example. How much? The big questions here are: Will the regional adminstration enjoy the same creative freedom in LFR? Will LFR feature the official metaplot and campaign events as depicted in the game accessory and novel lines? If so, to what degree? What steps will be taken to minimise contradictions between LFR's campaign material and the game accessory and novel lines?
Eric Anondson 08-19-07, 02:24 PM	More details to follow from the RPGA itself, but they definitely have plans to give lots of play opportunities (one of the benefits of playing LG was lots of opps and they recognize that).This is another aspect I worry about. IF they don't have as many regions, i.e. fewer but larger ones, that inevitably means fewer play opportunities. People will have to travel further and have fewer places to go. Then only places near the borders will get adequate play opportunities benefits. And if regions are too large, there will be extra conflict with regards to numbers of interactives and the number of premiers. Regions cannot be too large or too few. I predict that if the number of regions is much less than the current number of LG regions there will be different administration problems than if there are too many.
bhale187 08-19-07, 03:20 PM	This is another aspect I worry about. IF they don't have as many regions, i.e. fewer but larger ones, that inevitably means fewer play opportunities. People will have to travel further and have fewer places to go. Then only places near the borders will get adequate play opportunities benefits. And if regions are too large, there will be extra conflict with regards to numbers of interactives and the number of premiers. Regions cannot be too large or too few. I predict that if the number of regions is much less than the current number of LG regions there will be different administration problems than if there are too many. That is assuming the number of Regional Modules, Interactives, Specials, Etc will remain the same as in LG. Having a larger region also means having more available authors within the region to write more adventures for that region. RPGA could easily double the geographical size of your region and then double the number of annual adventures your region is allowed meaning no loss of available adventures(in comparison to LG). Also I can't imagine a change in regions will result in a change to the number of annual conventions held in any given area, nor the number of homes/stores that offer play.
Eric Anondson 08-19-07, 04:00 PM	That is assuming the number of Regional Modules, Interactives, Specials, Etc will remain the same as in LG. Having a larger region also means having more available authors within the region to write more adventures for that region. RPGA could easily double the geographical size of your region and then double the number of annual adventures your region is allowed meaning no loss of available adventures(in comparison to LG).I do assume that because doubling the number of mods and interactives, and not increasing the "triad" to a "sextad" (or whatever it is) means that the 3 volunteers and their circle rep will be doing double the work they are now . . . for free? Not likely.
scon40 08-19-07, 04:02 PM	WotC FR developers and the campaign staff for LFR will be working together in guiding the storylines of the FR. What each does will influence the other and both will be considered canon for the FR. So in some ways, you'll actually be having more effect on the world then you did in LG.
WolfStar76 08-19-07, 04:02 PM	As something of an LG-outsider (I don't play LG, but may give LFR a shot) it seems to me the easiest thing to do with regions would be to copy what they've got now region-wise (with a little polish perhaps, if its needed). I mean, if they regions they have now work, why reinvent the wheel?
Sieylianna 08-19-07, 06:13 PM	Likewise, LFR plotlines would be worked into the novels. Sounds like a lot of work and communication to me, but a VERY cool concept if it pans out. It would sell a lot more novels since they'd be attracting more readers than just the Drizz't fanboys. Ed
clannagh 08-19-07, 07:27 PM	It would sell a lot more novels since they'd be attracting more readers than just the Drizz't fanboys. Ed It seems likely the main issue with LG was (with the exception of adaptables) the mods themselves were free.
bhale187 08-19-07, 08:13 PM	It would sell a lot more novels since they'd be attracting more readers than just the Drizz't fanboys. Ed True, and after all the purpose of RPGA is to promote WotC products, is it not? While on a similar train of thought, I have always disliked Drizz't, but always been a fan of Forgotten Realms as a whole. I hate to see people bash FR based solely on one character (although he is obviously the most widely publishized). I would liken this to discounting all the Star Wars Saga because Jar Jar was such an awful character, and he played a huge role in Episodes 1 to 3.
Banor 08-19-07, 08:51 PM	Problem isnt really Drizz't, its who he brought to the setting. Drizz't got a heavy fan club that quite honestly arent the type of players i want to play with. FR in fact is directly designed toward this kind of public. Is it elitism ? Yes, probably. Do I care ? Not at all. I'm playing a game for having a good time with cool people not to babysit some kid that feel that Legolas and Drizz't are the coolest character ever done.
Mommy was an Orc 08-19-07, 10:28 PM	True, and after all the purpose of RPGA is to promote WotC products, is it not? While on a similar train of thought, I have always disliked Drizz't, but always been a fan of Forgotten Realms as a whole. I hate to see people bash FR based solely on one character (although he is obviously the most widely publishized). I would liken this to discounting all the Star Wars Saga because Jar Jar was such an awful character, and he played a huge role in Episodes 1 to 3. It isn't just Drizz't. A lot of people hate Elminster, the classic "Fighter 7//Thief 8//Cleric 9//MagicUser X", a way of supertweaking AD&D while only being a level or so behind, but only if you didn't actually play with anyone else during the Fighter 7//Thief 1-7 parts or the Fighter 7//Thief 8//Cleric 1-8 parts. The 1st mod series released for it was H1-4, a kind of pre-epic series of mods, that required a buying a battlesystem. A lot of the Faerun designers balance on flavor text, not mechanics(especially anything having to do with Harpers). And that flavor either subtly or obviously has something to do with Elminster. I don't mind them trying to promote FR and I do see several positives from what has been described, both from 4.0 and FR regions(i.e. less of them) - it sounds as if there will be less mods and a tighter focus on making sure they're edited well, yet making them more available to everyone. Probably 4.0 mods from Faerun won't even really require that much adaptation and the mods themselves will try to be more balanced in monster selection. As someone who has fought more Kaorti than Hobgobins in LG, I'd welcome that. As long as I don't have to read the stupid novels to understand the basics of what's going on, I'll be happy enough. And if the digital tabletop allows me to do my ARs online and auto-update my character's MILs, you can't imagine how happy I'll be. That alone I'd pay money for.
MichaelAhlf 08-19-07, 10:43 PM	WotC FR developers and the campaign staff for LFR will be working together in guiding the storylines of the FR. What each does will influence the other and both will be considered canon for the FR. So in some ways, you'll actually be having more effect on the world then you did in LG. Stephen, the short response here is "I'll believe it when I see it." History doesn't bode well.
LCJJohnson 08-19-07, 11:12 PM	Can this thread please be moved to RPGA > RPGA HQ > RPGA GENERAL until such time as RPGA > RPGA Campaigns > Living Forgotten Realms is created? LCJJohnson
Iswald 08-20-07, 01:00 AM	That is assuming the number of Regional Modules, Interactives, Specials, Etc will remain the same as in LG. Having a larger region also means having more available authors within the region to write more adventures for that region. RPGA could easily double the geographical size of your region and then double the number of annual adventures your region is allowed meaning no loss of available adventures(in comparison to LG). Also I can't imagine a change in regions will result in a change to the number of annual conventions held in any given area, nor the number of homes/stores that offer play. If you have too many modules in a region, it may become difficult for some players to play all of the mods. I've been keeping up with the mods in my region by going to cons and have played most of last years and this years mods in order. I've also played many mods from a neighboring region. I've played them out of order and don't have much of a clue what is happening in the story line. So, I can easily imagine having twice the mods available and not getting to play them all. With 80-90% of the mods only, and not in order, I'd be lost. That would suck. That'd be almost as bad as having Elminster or Drizzt appear in a mod.
Prof. Pacali 08-20-07, 01:32 AM	How does someone volunteer to write for this new campaign? Do you require an encyclopedic knowledge of every FR mod/novel/video game/poorly written Ed Greenwood article? Or can anyone write for the campaign? Also, while I realize that there won't be level bumps, would it be possible to create certs that will allow an LG player to bring gp or magic items to the newly minted 1st level PC from their old PC? There is already a precedent for this with the certs from Undermountain this year. This would reward those LG players who decide to stick with the campaign for the next few months, who don't abandon the campaign in disgust, and who are willing to hold their noses and play FR. It might even encourage the die-hard Greyhawk fans who hate Elminster and his Harper pals to give 4E and the new campaign a chance. Leor Blumenthal
WolfStar76 08-20-07, 07:40 AM	How does someone volunteer to write for this new campaign? Do you require an encyclopedic knowledge of every FR mod/novel/video game/poorly written Ed Greenwood article? Or can anyone write for the campaign? Chris Tulach was asking interested parties to speak with him after the Member's Meeting, and then proceeded to hand out a fistful of business cards. I'd start by contacting him. :)
mowaca 08-20-07, 07:13 PM	It seems likely the main issue with LG was (with the exception of adaptables) the mods themselves were free. I fully expect that LR will have a fee for ordering adventures, PDFs will expire after a few days, and you probably won't be able to print adventures anymore (or that will cost extra). I'm sure they looked at the numbers of adventures they could have 'sold' as part of their decision to end LG. Anways, seems weird to me to throw away LG and start from scratch just over free mods. FR was probably selected because they have so many more books and novels to sell from that campaign than Greyhawk. If they let LG survive their FR sales numbers will suffer.
Jay_Ibero_911 08-20-07, 08:25 PM	I fully expect that LR will have a fee for ordering adventures, PDFs will expire after a few days, and you probably won't be able to print adventures anymore (or that will cost extra). I'm sure they looked at the numbers of adventures they could have 'sold' as part of their decision to end LG. Anways, seems weird to me to throw away LG and start from scratch just over free mods. FR was probably selected because they have so many more books and novels to sell from that campaign than Greyhawk. If they let LG survive their FR sales numbers will suffer. Well I know personally there's no way in hell I'd pay to play in a campaign. It's enough paying for books as well as the occasional convention costs as far as hotels and transportations. I don't think there are many players at all who would be willing to shell out extra just to play the game when they can play a home campaign for free...Also...if they are going to charge for the adventures, doesn't that mean they'd have to pay the writers?
Morgen 08-20-07, 08:38 PM	I'd imagine with the sheer scope and detail in the realms we'll end up with more regions if the players can support it. The Living games were growing after all, those that actually had some care put into them.
Dominick 08-20-07, 09:05 PM	Here is my "massive" question: Will some of the people who threaten to leave, please leave now? The standard response for quitters on alt.games.everquest was: "Can I have your stuff?"
catsclaw 08-20-07, 10:06 PM	The standard response for quitters on alt.games.everquest was: "Can I have your stuff?"As I recall, "Can I have your stuff?" was the standard response to any gripe about the game -- reasonable or not -- and it was mostly bandied about by the elitist pricks who patrolled the forums abusing anyone who didn't think Everquest was the B3ST G4M3 3V3R!!!11!!!1 I'd hate to think people were endorsing that style of discourse here.
LCJJohnson 08-21-07, 01:55 AM	Questions: 1. When will the 4th ed SRD come out? 2. When will the LFRCS come out?
mark1978 08-21-07, 04:33 AM	Questions: 1. When will the 4th ed SRD come out? 2. When will the LFRCS come out? Appended questions: 3. Will LFR be using the TU system? Or, will they be more open-ended with play, or will they be using an even more antiquated system yet seen in organized play? 4. How will access work, will it be LFRCS and AR based as LG was, or will they be developing a better system? 5. Are players still going to be restricted from giving other players stuff, or even selling other players crafted goods making a legitimate use of their crafting abilities? 6. ARs that provide rather extensive access over time can be daunting when our characters crawl past sixth level, is the Character Creator digital tool going to include an AR and player access tracker to make our lives easier? I will stop there for now, and check back later. Mark
_metz_ 08-21-07, 04:41 AM	snip Please put your signature in a spoiler box or cut it down a bit, its rather long. Funny. But too long.
mark1978 08-21-07, 04:55 AM	Please put your signature in a spoiler box or cut it down a bit, its rather long. Funny. But too long. How does one make a spoiler box, the spoiler /spoiler tags did not work, and it's not built into the interface, not from what I saw. I am new to Wizard's forums, and their interface. Mark
_metz_ 08-21-07, 06:25 AM	Its the same formula as a quote, except in the square parentheses e.g: [ write sblock and then /sblock to finish the code. Just write that into your Signature, with perhaps "Funny DnD moments as a Title before the Spoiler block
Dominick 08-21-07, 08:10 AM	As I recall, "Can I have your stuff?" was the standard response to any gripe about the game -- reasonable or not -- and it was mostly bandied about by the elitist pricks who patrolled the forums abusing anyone who didn't think Everquest was the B3ST G4M3 3V3R!!!11!!!1 I'd hate to think people were endorsing that style of discourse here. You recall incorrectly. Go look at usenet. It was for people claiming that somehow they were exploited in the course of playing a game. Same stuff, BOYCOTT SONY, lets do this ourselves, and other infantile tripe. If you feel exploited please, feel free to leave. I would not want you to join the ranks of people in Darfur, Zimbawe, Bosnia, Croatia, Iran or Tibet in being exploited.
_metz_ 08-21-07, 08:20 AM	If you feel exploited please, feel free to leave. I would not want you to join the ranks of people in Darfur, Zimbawe, Bosnia, Croatia, Iran or Tibet in being exploited. I would suggest that such talk is inappropriate here. Not to mention completely irrelevant, and perhaps misguided. How is comparing genocide/authoritarianism/religious extremism etc to gamers who are miffed at a marketing decision going to help at all?
Bogjob 08-21-07, 09:02 AM	Well I know personally there's no way in hell I'd pay to play in a campaign. It's enough paying for books as well as the occasional convention costs as far as hotels and transportations. I don't think there are many players at all who would be willing to shell out extra just to play the game when they can play a home campaign for free...Also...if they are going to charge for the adventures, doesn't that mean they'd have to pay the writers? Most people pay in a home campaign as their DM's buy modules as not everyone has the time or patience to write their own, as can be seen by the fact Onnwal and the Splintered Suns mets region have never had their full allocation of mods used up since I have been playing.
Dominick 08-21-07, 09:09 AM	I would suggest that such talk is inappropriate here. Not to mention completely irrelevant, and perhaps misguided. How is comparing genocide/authoritarianism/religious extremism etc to gamers who are miffed at a marketing decision going to help at all? Look at the language some are using. My example is ridiculous, so are some of our fellow gamers. I am holding up this ridiculous example. People are claiming that they are being sheepishly taken advantage of, and conned. I understand miffed. I have characters I am losing and that I enjoy. I do not advocate breaking copyright law, boycotting WoTC, or punching a nose. They could be no more outraged if someone rode down any street in America and were freely spraying asbestos and DDT. There is a lack of perspective I was trying to add in here. Its not a personal attack on you, and I am not claiming you are unbalanced. There is a difference between outrage and miffed. People are also citing poverty. As it sits, if you make $6 an hour, thats more than half a days work for a new book. If someone has to choose between food and a 4e book, please buy some food, I am sure that nobody at WoTC wants you to eat ramen for a week because you wanted the PHB.
Eric Anondson 08-21-07, 12:54 PM	They could be no more outraged if someone rode down any street in America and were freely spraying asbestos and DDT. There is a lack of perspective I was trying to add in here.FWIW, DDT is non-toxic to humans at anything other than bucketful doses . . . Just sayin' . . . :)
KarmaInferno 08-21-07, 01:32 PM	You recall incorrectly. Go look at usenet. It was for people claiming that somehow they were exploited in the course of playing a game. Same stuff, BOYCOTT SONY, lets do this ourselves, and other infantile tripe. Actually, it was specifically for people claiming they were leaving a game or whatever due to being upset. They'd go to the forums or message boards and post a bunch of "I'M MAD AND I'M NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE" posts. Generally, the response was to dismiss or ridicule the person, and "Can I have your stuff" was one of the dismissive responses. -karma
catsclaw 08-21-07, 02:12 PM	Generally, the response was to dismiss or ridicule the person, and "Can I have your stuff" was one of the dismissive responses.Exactly. I can never understand the sort of people who troll message boards looking for posters who are obviously distressed and upset, only to insult and ridicule them. I imagine they're the same kids who tortured stray animals and played frog baseball. Given the usual spelling and grammar in the post, they seem to be the same age as well.
KarmaInferno 08-21-07, 02:21 PM	It's pretty much because the forum regulars have seen the exact same sort of "I'm leaving!" posts thousands of times before, to the point that they're jaded and cynical about the whole thing. -karma
catsclaw 08-21-07, 02:54 PM	It's pretty much because the forum regulars have seen the exact same sort of "I'm leaving!" posts thousands of times before, to the point that they're jaded and cynical about the whole thing.That doesn't excuse it. I'm sure police officers get jaded and cynical about all the robbery calls they get sent out on, but you hope they don't make fun of the victims to their face. Worse, you actually have to go out of your way to ridicule people posting on a board. It's not as if it's a required part of your job.
bhale187 08-21-07, 03:03 PM	That doesn't excuse it. I'm sure police officers get jaded and cynical about all the robbery calls they get sent out on, but you hope they don't make fun of the victims to their face. Worse, you actually have to go out of your way to ridicule people posting on a board. It's not as if it's a required part of your job. Are you seriously trying to compare the self proclaimed "victims" of LG's demise to robbery victims? By the way, we don't make fun of them to their face, we wait until we get back to the squad room to laugh about it..............
catsclaw 08-21-07, 03:57 PM	Are you seriously trying to compare the self proclaimed "victims" of LG's demise to robbery victims?Of course not. I'm comparing the people who make fun of either of them. People deserve to be treated with respect and decency. That seems to be a pretty high bar for some posters.By the way, we don't make fun of them to their face, we wait until we get back to the squad room to laugh about it..............Is there some trauma in your childhood that compels you to be a flippant jerk? Because you seem deeply proud of it, in some obscure way, as if you've just mastered toilet training.
KarmaInferno 08-21-07, 04:20 PM	Of course not. I'm comparing the people who make fun of either of them. People deserve to be treated with respect and decency. Well, all I can say to that is, Welcome to the Internet. -karma
Sieylianna 08-21-07, 07:05 PM	Appended questions: 3. Will LFR be using the TU system? 5. Are players still going to be restricted from giving other players stuff, or even selling other players crafted goods making a legitimate use of their crafting abilities? Exactly how do you expect anyone to have answers to your questions? I'd be surprised if this level of detail is out by Origins 2008. That said - my unofficial opinion: 3. There will be a system of tracking time. Whether it's TU or something else, there will be one because otherwise you're giving crafters too much of an advantage. 5. Unfortunately, I don't think that there is a fair way to divide treasure when the players may never see each other again. For that reason, I expect something along the lines of an AR or logsheet. Apparently, they're trying to deemphasize magic items in 4e, so access may not be an issue. Ed
clannagh 08-21-07, 07:50 PM	It's pretty much because the forum regulars have seen the exact same sort of "I'm leaving!" posts thousands of times before, to the point that they're jaded and cynical about the whole thing. -karma If you wanted to start a flame war the pro-LG crowd could just as easy say " All you FR fan boys bugger off to the new Forgotten Realms boards and leave LG to true supporters". Just because someone is not going to play FR doesnt mean they do not want to help constructively with the end of the LG campaign. I would also point out some of the people that are attacking people who post about leaving (effectively scaring people off from making such posts) have turned around and said elsewhere "not that many people are actually leaving". There are a lot of people that are not swapping over. A lot more are adopting a wait and see attitude. Basically WoTC really doesnt care so posting on here you are leaving is kinda pointless. But so what they have the right to post.
RanielK 08-21-07, 08:11 PM	How does someone volunteer to write for this new campaign? Do you require an encyclopedic knowledge of every FR mod/novel/video game/poorly written Ed Greenwood article? Or can anyone write for the campaign? As an answer, I'd ask if you need to know all about Geoff if you're writing about Nyrond or the BK.
Dominick 08-21-07, 09:41 PM	Of course not. I'm comparing the people who make fun of either of them. People deserve to be treated with respect and decency. That seems to be a pretty high bar for some posters. If you really wanted a statement stop buying, write a letter on paper and pen, and tell your gaming store. Not grouse on the internet. I think that people trying to grassroot a boycott need to be get negative feedback to the idea that leaving is anything but futile to a corporation. Time for a image macro? http://blog.dreamhost.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/serious.jpg That bar was too high.
catsclaw 08-21-07, 10:23 PM	If you really wanted a statement stop buying ...I never said a thing about leaving the campaign. All I asked was that you refrain from ridiculing or attacking people who are clearly distraught about the decision by Wizards to terminate the Greyhawk campaign.That bar was too high.If you can't treat other posters with decency and respect, kindly ban yourself from the board. You've managed to violate the Terms of Service before you've even written a word. And your "Some people deserve to be abused :P" shtick just isn't as amusing as you think it is, either.
_metz_ 08-22-07, 12:47 AM	If you really wanted a statement stop buying, write a letter on paper and pen, and tell your gaming store. Not grouse on the internet. I think that people trying to grassroot a boycott need to be get negative feedback to the idea that leaving is anything but futile to a corporation. Time for a image macro? That bar was too high. You have nothing relevant to be contributing to this post, you are just attacking people. Please take it elsewhere, I would like this post to remain one where people can actually ask questions, not where you can start a flame war.
bhale187 08-22-07, 07:38 AM	If you can't treat other posters with decency and respect, kindly ban yourself from the board. You've managed to violate the Terms of Service before you've even written a word. And your "Some people deserve to be abused :P" shtick just isn't as amusing as you think it is, either. Perhaps you should take your own advise since your previous post was edited multiple times by a WizO for your personal insults directed at me, and you keep adding new insults after each edit. Is that bar you set too high for yourself as well?
Dominick 08-22-07, 08:27 AM	Perhaps you should take your own advise since your previous post was edited multiple times by a WizO for your personal insults directed at me, and you keep adding new insults after each edit. Is that bar you set too high for yourself as well? Thats usually the case when some people act as junior moderators. They can ride on a higher horse that allows them to declare they know where the bar is. I admit adding an image macro was probabaly a little immature, but geez I am in my 40s, how often do I get to act immature? If you read my posts I refer to attacking the idea. If someone has a exceedingly bad idea like, "Lets do a bootleg LG campaign", then that idea deserves derision. It was semiofficially scoffed at by circle members. I am the last person to say a single circle members word is law, but the advise they give is spot on there. The "wounded king" gambit of "I am leaving Dungeons and Dragons because WoTC made me cry" is getting old. So are the rabble rousing calls of exploitation. I have serious questions. None of them involve asking "Can I have all your Greyhawk intellectual property, please?" nor "Can I have your stuff?" Back On Topic! Serious questions (dah dah dahhhh):mad: I hear the call is going out for volunteers in September. I also hear people emailing WoTC staff for jobs in LFR. What should volunteers do? When are we going to know regions? Can LG players have a say in the size and geography of the new regions? I organize conventions in late 2008 and 2009. When are we going to set a priemere rotation for regionals? What is going on for DnD day this fall? Can we expect to see the preview for 4e BEFORE then? Can LFR be different this year and be an integral part of that? (In the past LG was not mentioned in any materials.)
WizO_Kayn 08-22-07, 08:37 AM	Get back on topic - stop biting at each other - Else this thread will be shut down. Thanks Wizo Kayn
Dominick 08-22-07, 08:49 AM	Thanks Wizo Kayn! Questions not answered by someone who knows for sure, like Steve Conforti. Questions: 1. When will the 4th ed SRD come out? 2. When will the LFRCS come out? Appended questions: 3. Will LFR be using the TU system? Or, will they be more open-ended with play, or will they be using an even more antiquated system yet seen in organized play? 4. How will access work, will it be LFRCS and AR based as LG was, or will they be developing a better system? 5. Are players still going to be restricted from giving other players stuff, or even selling other players crafted goods making a legitimate use of their crafting abilities? 6. ARs that provide rather extensive access over time can be daunting when our characters crawl past sixth level, is the Character Creator digital tool going to include an AR and player access tracker to make our lives easier? I will stop there for now, and check back later. Mark (SNIP) I hear the call is going out for volunteers in September. I also hear people emailing WoTC staff for jobs in LFR. What should volunteers do? When are we going to know regions? Can LG players have a say in the size and geography of the new regions? I organize conventions in late 2008 and 2009. When are we going to set a priemere rotation for regionals? What is going on for DnD day this fall? Can we expect to see the preview for 4e BEFORE then? Can LFR be different this year and be an integral part of that? (In the past LG was not mentioned in any materials.)
Potato Weasel 08-22-07, 08:50 AM	I have a serious question: Will anything we do have any actual effect on FR canon? or is it just going to be 'In the end, despite valiant defences by local militia, the situation was bleak as (insert name of writers new uber villain) advanced on the town, shredding their pitiful defences easily until (insert name of writers pet hero) valiantly saved the day without breaking a sweat (and sacrificed a load of people needlessly, but lets not go into detail)
WizO_Mimir 08-22-07, 03:05 PM	Can't we all just get along? Closing this thread now...