Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Necrochaos 02-25-07, 11:21 PM	I was reading through the Complete Mage this weekend and I saw this as an interesting prestige class. Has anyone looked at this to see if this is worthwhile? It seems like a very fun class to play. I have been wanting to start a bard and I really like this class. Any ideas or suggestions if I'm going to do this? Also, doesn't the extra spells from the sorc/wiz selection give this more utility/flexibility than your normal bard?
cetiken 02-25-07, 11:31 PM	Its cool. I've built a bard to go into the class as soon as I saw CM (well before the LGCS comes out) the only downside is that your bard songs don't get any better (IE no +3 hit and damage at level 8 with Inspirational Boost) but your spellcasting dose gain a major boost. I'm hoping it works out well, but even in a worst case sceinero where i still run out of spells after the first encounter, I can keep giving that good old +1 to hit and damage and no one hates that. The melodic casting feat that it requires should be high on any bards want list as well. I think its spiffy anyway and my ranger would do a little dance when a Lyric Thurmage sat down at the table (He'd also be happy to see a straight bard too).
JohnduBois 02-26-07, 05:03 AM	I was reading through the Complete Mage this weekend and I saw this as an interesting prestige class. Has anyone looked at this to see if this is worthwhile? It seems like a very fun class to play. I have been wanting to start a bard and I really like this class. Any ideas or suggestions if I'm going to do this? Also, doesn't the extra spells from the sorc/wiz selection give this more utility/flexibility than your normal bard? It looks fun to me. It seems, though, that the best use of this class would be as a ramp to Sublime Chord - Bard 5/LT 5/SC X.
solbergb 02-26-07, 12:06 PM	It's actually pretty good on a pure bard once you have inspire greatness. If you enter before that, you lose that rather handy bardsong, and the extra +1/+1 to the inspire courage at level 8. It gives more spellcasting versatility and endurance without the nasty skill requirements of Sublime chord (and without the weird complexity of that class). It is hard to underestimate how useful the melodic casting feat for the class is on conserving bardsongs if what you normally do is keep one song up and cast a lot of spells in combat. I think that feat is often about the same as having extra bardsong on busy combat days. It's not as useful for the bards who cast a ton of bardsong effects in combat, often using Harmonize. But the extra slots and such are still useful. My cohort will likely go that way from level 10+
magebeast 02-26-07, 12:46 PM	It's actually pretty good on a pure bard once you have inspire greatness. If you enter before that, you lose that rather handy bardsong, and the extra +1/+1 to the inspire courage at level 8. It gives more spellcasting versatility and endurance without the nasty skill requirements of Sublime chord (and without the weird complexity of that class). It is hard to underestimate how useful the melodic casting feat for the class is on conserving bardsongs if what you normally do is keep one song up and cast a lot of spells in combat. I think that feat is often about the same as having extra bardsong on busy combat days. It's not as useful for the bards who cast a ton of bardsong effects in combat, often using Harmonize. But the extra slots and such are still useful. My cohort will likely go that way from level 10+ That's my plan for my bard 10+. I was about to embark on a really tortured route of skills buying for the next 5 levels (6-10) in order to qualify for Sublime Chord because I didn't build for it from the beginning, but now I don't have to.
Chris_L 02-26-07, 02:09 PM	It looks fun to me. It seems, though, that the best use of this class would be as a ramp to Sublime Chord - Bard 5/LT 5/SC X. I'd been thinking of that as well (currently my bard is L5); however you need Perform at 9 ranks, so you need at least Bard L6.
jstorrie 02-26-07, 05:27 PM	LT 5 pairs nicely with Born of Three Thunders, for a 'caster bard.' Bard 5 / LT 5 / Sublime Chord is definitely a no-brainer, although I might be tempted to tack something on at the end to progress SC that isn't SC.
solbergb 02-26-07, 06:09 PM	Once again. You need 9 ranks of perform. There will be no Bard5/LT5/XXX builds They must all be Bard6/LTX builds bard8 or bard9 though are also good exit points (increased inspire courage, or inspire competence)
Mommy was an Orc 02-26-07, 07:03 PM	It's actually pretty good on a pure bard once you have inspire greatness. If you enter before that, you lose that rather handy bardsong, and the extra +1/+1 to the inspire courage at level 8. I think the PrC is okay. Both pure Bard and Bard/Sublime Chord seem better than it. Pure Bard gets to keep ramping up Bardsong(Inspire Greatness on two targets instead of one at 12th, Inspire Courage +4 at 14th) and ends up with 12 more skill points. Sublime Chord just gets so many better spells and without a requirement to cast 4th level spells, that allows 1 level dips that make Lyric Thaum a bit on the weaker side. It isn't horrible, but I'm not sure where it is just that worth it.
MeepoTheMighty 02-26-07, 08:14 PM	It's not the greatest class, but the thought of throwing out Explosive, Born of Three Thunders, Sonic-substituted fireballs really makes me laugh, for some reason. Especially if you take Perform (electric guitar). "Mine goes to 11"
MeepoTheMighty 02-26-07, 08:19 PM	It's not the greatest class, but the thought of throwing out Explosive, Born of Three Thunders, Sonic-substituted fireballs really makes me laugh, for some reason. Of course, I meant electric-substituted, since you can't take energy substitution for sonic.
solbergb 02-26-07, 09:16 PM	I think the PrC is okay. Both pure Bard and Bard/Sublime Chord seem better than it. Pure Bard gets to keep ramping up Bardsong(Inspire Greatness on two targets instead of one at 12th, Inspire Courage +4 at 14th) and ends up with 12 more skill points. Priorities are different when you end at level 13 instead of 15 (as cohorts do) Having the extra spell slots and spell selection immediately is worth doing one less inspire greatness/round and waiting several levels to get it. The fact that the last inspire courage never comes is also kind of important. (having your mandolin go +4/+4 vs the +3/+4 you've been doing with drums since level 8 just isn't worth waiting till L13) Frankly the bard stuff comes late and isn't that exciting, where the payoff form the PRC starts immediately, assuming you're a spellcasting kind of bard. One thing that makes it appealing is the low entry cost. The kind of char who would like the class is the kind of char who would USE melodic casting. (note also that with this feat you essentially gain an extra skillpoint per level by not having to have ANY concentration ranks. So don't assume pure bard gives more skill ranks - it actually is a wash or better if you retrain away any concentration you took before taking Melodic Casting). It's a style thing - much like choosing specialist wizard vs wizard. Some char concepts will do better as bard, some as lyric thaumaturge. Sublime chord is more powerful than any other bard build, but it's annoying. Your skills are railroaded, you get fewer bardsongs and your spell list gets weird and complicated. Plus I have an aversion to anything that is considered the normal way of doing things and that others are doing :)
Mommy was an Orc 02-27-07, 12:14 AM	note also that with this feat you essentially gain an extra skillpoint per level by not having to have ANY concentration ranks. So don't assume pure bard gives more skill ranks - it actually is a wash or better if you retrain away any concentration you took before taking Melodic Casting). Just because Bards aren't required to take Melodic casting, doesn't mean they can't. Simply not having to take Concentration alone makes it worth it from a skill monkey perspective. My Bard/Marshal/Sublime Chord is going to have his concentration check rise by more than 20 when he hits level 9. How many feats can say that? Sublime chord is more powerful than any other bard build, but it's annoying. Your skills are railroaded, you get fewer bardsongs and your spell list gets weird and complicated. Plus I have an aversion to anything that is considered the normal way of doing things and that others are doing :) Your skills aren't that railroaded - if you need to cast 4th level spells, they would be. But as it is, you just need 3rd level spells - with a level of Marshal, you can still get Inspire Greatness. And Motivate Charisma by itself represents more ranks in all the charisma skills than the amount of skill points in prereqs for Sublime Chord.
Mattastrophic 02-27-07, 05:30 PM	Your skills aren't that railroaded - if you need to cast 4th level spells, they would be. But as it is, you just need 3rd level spells - with a level of Marshal, you can still get Inspire Greatness. And Motivate Charisma by itself represents more ranks in all the charisma skills than the amount of skill points in prereqs for Sublime Chord. You also DEFINITELY don't lose your songs/day if you do something like Bard9/Virtuoso1/SublimeChord2/Virtuoso.
Necrochaos 02-27-07, 06:58 PM	Wow, many different opinions. I'm just looking to play a character that isn't your normal cookie-cutter. I've yet to play a bard in LG and it looks like fun. I haven't looked through the CM much, but I saw that class and thought it would be very interesting. I'll have to give it some serious thought.
Necrochaos 02-27-07, 07:21 PM	Also I don't understand Melodic Casting. So I don't need to put any points in concentration? I also can use spells without breaking my song? That sounds pretty powerful to me.
cetiken 02-27-07, 08:06 PM	Also I don't understand Melodic Casting. So I don't need to put any points in concentration? I also can use spells without breaking my song? That sounds pretty powerful to me. Thats about right. The one thing to remember is that you can only use perform instead of concentration to cast spells. If you're trying to maintain a spell like Silent Image you have make normal (not so high ranked probably) concentration checks. Its somthing to bear in mind, especially since Spell Compendium includes several very nice bard spells that require conectration IIRC.
Necrochaos 03-01-07, 08:45 PM	Well, I decided to start this character. It will be my Ket character. Bard 6 the Lyric Thaumaturge. Is Melodic Casting worth taking at first level? If not, I'm not sure what I should take at 1st level for my feats.
magebeast 03-01-07, 09:26 PM	Well, I decided to start this character. It will be my Ket character. Bard 6 the Lyric Thaumaturge. Is Melodic Casting worth taking at first level? If not, I'm not sure what I should take at 1st level for my feats. Extra music. It'll allow you to bard song for every combat.
CdrcJsn 03-02-07, 04:01 PM	I currently play a 10th level single classed bard. Captivating Melody and Extra Music are nice feats for specific purposes, but I don't think they're really needed. Even in specials, I don't think I've ever run out of bard songs. And this is with me throwing out inspire greatness as a substitute false life to squishy allies (as move actions thanks to harmonize). As for inspire courage/inspire greatness running out during combat, I think it's an overrated concern. I can't recall a time when my inspire courage ended before combat did.
Necrochaos 03-02-07, 04:57 PM	Baklunish (Kettite) Bard Str 8, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 16 Took Extra Song and Spell Focus Conjuration, as I'll be using Grease and Glitterdust and such. I like captivating melody, but I don't know how much I will use it. Is this a smart choice for me? I also thought about maxing out my ranks in UMD to be able to use wands and scrolls. Is this wise as well? This will make me more versatile.
Mattastrophic 03-02-07, 05:44 PM	Baklunish (Kettite) Bard Str 8, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 16 Took Extra Song and Spell Focus Conjuration, as I'll be using Grease and Glitterdust and such. I like captivating melody, but I don't know how much I will use it. Is this a smart choice for me? I also thought about maxing out my ranks in UMD to be able to use wands and scrolls. Is this wise as well? This will make me more versatile. Extra Music is very unneccessary, as even if you have a ton of songs a day, you're limited by your Inspirational Boosts/day. Also, the value of Spell Focus runs out very quickly, as a bard doesn't have the DCs a wizard does. You're better off with bard-stuff, like Tactical Precision and Inspirational Boost. I'd highly recommend going with Melodic Casting, as it basically raises your Int by 2, since you won't need Concentration. Next, I'd lower the Int to 14. With Melodic Casting in the build, you'll already be at "virtually" 10 skill points/lvl. I'd then up your Dex to 14, since your armor choices are limited, and put your Con to 12, since you do have a d6 hit die. As written, the build looks more like a Sorcerer than a Bard, and your choice of Spell Focus reflects that as well. -Matt has learned these lessons the hard way.
solbergb 03-02-07, 08:40 PM	Extra music and melodic casting both help with feats that burn bardsongs like water, such as lyric song or ironskin chant. Bards that don't indulge in such feats don't need extra music, but might still find melodic casting somewhat useful (certainly moreso than lingering song most of the time)
frupton 03-03-07, 12:56 AM	Well, I decided to start this character. It will be my Ket character. Bard 6 the Lyric Thaumaturge. Is Melodic Casting worth taking at first level? If not, I'm not sure what I should take at 1st level for my feats. Improved Init is always a solid feat choice for Bards. Your fighters don't want to sit around in delay waiting for your song to start. Melodic Casting will be worthwhile, but I don't know that you need it at 1st level. It will be more useful when you begin to become a caster. I'd aim to take it at 3rd or 6th. I agree with Matt that Extra Music isn't likely to be useful unless you are planning to be burning a lot more bardic music in combat than just Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness. The combo of Lyric Spell and Extra Music is not unreasonable, to flexibly augment the Bard's limited spell repertoire.
Necrochaos 03-04-07, 09:09 AM	Extra Music is very unneccessary, as even if you have a ton of songs a day, you're limited by your Inspirational Boosts/day. Also, the value of Spell Focus runs out very quickly, as a bard doesn't have the DCs a wizard does. You're better off with bard-stuff, like Tactical Precision and Inspirational Boost. I'd highly recommend going with Melodic Casting, as it basically raises your Int by 2, since you won't need Concentration. Next, I'd lower the Int to 14. With Melodic Casting in the build, you'll already be at "virtually" 10 skill points/lvl. I'd then up your Dex to 14, since your armor choices are limited, and put your Con to 12, since you do have a d6 hit die. As written, the build looks more like a Sorcerer than a Bard, and your choice of Spell Focus reflects that as well. -Matt has learned these lessons the hard way. Yes, I plan to be more of a spellcasting bard, which is why I looked at Lyric Thaumaturge. I want to buff and give some songs, but I want to control the battlefield and be a mean spellcaster. Pick up extend Spell later. I'll think about changing the stats for my guy. Could be quite helpful.
cetiken 03-04-07, 09:47 AM	Also, the value of Spell Focus runs out very quickly, as a bard doesn't have the DCs a wizard does. You're better off with bard-stuff, like Tactical Precision and Inspirational Boost. I'm wondering if you could support your claim that Bard DCs are worse than wizard ones. I see that you might have a case for higher level spells since when a wizard is casting level 6 spells we're only casting level 4 ones but other than that and especially at lower levels the diffrence dosn't seem to be too extreme. Especially since most wizards I know don't seem to take spell focus so it helps to bridge the gap. As a hypothetical, my bard can use Enchating Song, with SF and GSF to cast Suggestion at CL 7 with a DC of 20 at level six (18 base cha +2 cloak). That seems pretty reasonable to me. Also, could you cite the source of Tactical Precision? I'm drawing a blank. Inspirational Boost should definatly be on just about every bard spell known list though.
Mattastrophic 03-04-07, 11:02 AM	As a hypothetical, my bard can use Enchating Song, with SF and GSF to cast Suggestion at CL 7 with a DC of 20 at level six (18 base cha +2 cloak). That seems pretty reasonable to me. At the cost of THREE FEATS for a spell that can't even be used in all situations? -Matt
Mommy was an Orc 03-04-07, 12:49 PM	I agree with Matt that Extra Music isn't likely to be useful unless you are planning to be burning a lot more bardic music in combat than just Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness. The combo of Lyric Spell and Extra Music is not unreasonable, to flexibly augment the Bard's limited spell repertoire. 1st level on the other hand is a great point to take Extra Music and then retrain it out once you hit 2nd or 3rd level. One thing to remember about Bardic Music is that you can burn a lot of uses when you want to do so - Inspire Competence, Countersong, and Suggestion have some very powerful effects. As an example, you know you're going down into the Vampire's tomb. Do Fascinate and Suggestion on everyone else in the party. In a 6 person group at 8th level, that's 7 uses of Bardic Music. Now when the Vampire orders them what to do, it is a Charisma vs Charisma check. I've also found Countersong to own Succubi encounters - once my bard starts talking, my minimum perform check is higher than her DC on all her major effects. No one but you can 'aid another' the Rogue trying to disarm that trap. Or for that matter, I've pointed out to several DMs that I'm not metagaming an Inspire Courage use - when I've got 11 of them in a day and we're doing something that might get us into combat.
cetiken 03-04-07, 01:01 PM	At the cost of THREE FEATS for a spell that can't even be used in all situations? To what great purpose do you recommend bards use their feats other than spells that let you say (even occasionally) Save or surrender? Tactical Precision is a neat spell. Seems pretty situational though definitely useful.
The_Jester 03-04-07, 01:15 PM	Extra Music is amazing at low levels but after level five or six, even in crawl mods where it's one combat after another, you're unlikely to exhaust all your musics. However, if you have Lyrical Spell, Extra Music suddenly becomes an extra 3rd level spell every day or a couple first levels. That can be pretty darn handy.
Mattastrophic 03-06-07, 02:45 PM	To what great purpose do you recommend bards use their feats other than spells that let you say (even occasionally) Save or surrender? That's the problem, there's really not a whole lot of choices for the straight bard. Except for Melodic Casting, that's one a given. If you want to cast lots of enchantment spells, be a Sorcerer or Wizard, don't strive to be a second-rate. If you want to primary buff the party bard-style, then buff the party bard-style; don't spend your feats on being a second-rate enchanter. As for Extra Music for Lyric Spell: one Memento Magica III does the same thing. That's the thing about Lyric Spell; it's nice at high levels, but before 12th or so it costs too many bardsongs, unless you burn more feats. MWaO: Once again, you are so the man for that "retrain Extra Music" bit. Retraining is a paradigm shift, I tell ya! -Matt learned these lessons the hard way. Those feats are getting retrained.
Mattastrophic 03-06-07, 02:48 PM	Tactical Precision is a neat spell. Seems pretty situational though definitely useful. What I most like about it is that it's a unique buff effect that nobody else can duplicate. -Matt
cetiken 03-06-07, 04:30 PM	I agree that there's a lot to be said for grabbing improved init (since the fighters usually won't wait for you to sing), Melodic Casting (cause its awsome), and perhaps something like leadership. Yes, there are a lot of good options with bards, and actually I think beguilers would by far make the best Enchanters out there. I'll definatly be thinking about retraining my fist level spell focus enchantment. But I've still got quite a few mods till level 3.
solbergb 03-07-07, 03:05 AM	As for Extra Music for Lyric Spell: one Memento Magica III does the same thing. That's the thing about Lyric Spell; it's nice at high levels, but before 12th or so it costs too many bardsongs, unless you burn more feats. . Assuming you have a momento magica III access at level 7 and 13500gp to blow on it. and a level 4 access at level 10 and 24000gp to waste on it. Not bloody likely. When you need the access (during that "0" spells per day level, and the one after it), you can't afford it. All the way up until retirement. Getting the second haste at level 7 per day or the second dim door at level 10 can be worth a feat. Maybe even two feats. What it helps with is the dearth of top tier spell slots that bards uniquely suffer from, especially in the level 7-11 range. (the L5 bard spell list doesn't have the "killer app" spells that the L3 and L4 list has). Most other solutions to getting enough bard spells to be useful focus on the low level spells, trading feats for those. Lyric thaumaturge is another way to get more low level spells. Combine it with lyric song and you get a few extra slots in all tiers and as a bard you spend more actions casting than initiating singing or fighting. Which seems to be what the PRC is about, so it achieves its purpose, and lyric song is fairly complementary if used on the top tier slots once or twice a day. If you want to do something else, it isn't the PRC for you, and likely neither melodic casting or lyric song are very interesting. One thing that is interesting is most of the cool bard enchantment type spells are low level - a fact that hurts the DC's but does make it easier to use those as an offensive tool. To do so though, you need to spend feats in raising DC's, instead of in raising the number of absolute spells you can cast, like the more support oriented bards are.
Mattastrophic 03-08-07, 02:52 PM	Assuming you have a momento magica III access at level 7 and 13500gp to blow on it. and a level 4 access at level 10 and 24000gp to waste on it. But then again, you could take Craft Wondrous Item instead of Extra Music and then make your own Mementos. Along with all the money saved on your stat items, Mementos become much more affordable. -Matt believes that if Fighters were given Open access to +5 weapons and +5 armor, then spellcasters should've been given Open access to Pearls and Mementos.
Necrochaos 03-08-07, 09:40 PM	Man, I'm getting so confused I can't figure out what I should do. I'll take at least Improved Int, not sure what to take as the other feat.
magebeast 03-08-07, 10:08 PM	Man, I'm getting so confused I can't figure out what I should do. I'll take at least Improved Int, not sure what to take as the other feat. I'd take improved init and extra music. Later, if you find yourself with too many uses of extra music per day and starved for feats, you can simply retrain out of the feat.
frupton 03-09-07, 03:45 AM	I'd take improved init and extra music. Later, if you find yourself with too many uses of extra music per day and starved for feats, you can simply retrain out of the feat. This sounds like pretty good advice. You may well retrain it away later, but its likely to be at least as useful as anything else for a while.
Mattastrophic 03-09-07, 11:18 AM	This sounds like pretty good advice. You may well retrain it away later, but its likely to be at least as useful as anything else for a while. On the other hand, Melodic Spellcasting would mean that you would NEVER EVER EVER have to take ranks in Concentration. I'd say Extra Music and Melodic Spellcasting at 1st, then maybe consider Improved Init. Initiative isn't THAT important early on. -Matt
solbergb 03-09-07, 11:53 AM	But then again, you could take Craft Wondrous Item instead of Extra Music and then make your own Mementos. . Even at half price they're still hideously expensive. I'd rather have extra music and spend my cash on other things.
magebeast 03-09-07, 11:57 AM	On the other hand, Melodic Spellcasting would mean that you would NEVER EVER EVER have to take ranks in Concentration. I'd say Extra Music and Melodic Spellcasting at 1st, then maybe consider Improved Init. Initiative isn't THAT important early on. -Matt I have no ranks in concentration on my Bard. None. I don't have melodic casting. I'm level 5. I've never *needed* it. If you play a bard properly early, it simply isn't an issue. You never draw attention to yourself, so you never get hit or take damage. You chill out in the back of the party and are pretty much never in a threatened square unless you're providing a flank or something.
solbergb 03-09-07, 11:59 AM	You chill out in the back of the party and are pretty much never in a threatened square unless you're providing a flank or something. Try casting a spell while riding a horse. Or when entangled. Or on a boat in rough water Or in nasty weather. Not to mention that things like Harmonic Chorous or Joyous noise or some bardic music abilities need concentration to continue if you take damage or whatever.
Mattastrophic 03-09-07, 12:50 PM	I have no ranks in concentration on my Bard. None. I don't have melodic casting. I'm level 5. I've never *needed* it. If you play a bard properly early, it simply isn't an issue. You never draw attention to yourself, so you never get hit or take damage. You chill out in the back of the party and are pretty much never in a threatened square unless you're providing a flank or something. And the all-important one solberg left out: DimDooring out of a grapple. And then there are the times you're hit by a readied attack in response to your casting. Or when you have to run into a Large creature's reach to cast Cure Light to save your friend. -Matt enjoys his +40 Concentration courtesy of Melodic Spellcasting.
magebeast 03-09-07, 05:23 PM	Try casting a spell while riding a horse. Or when entangled. Or on a boat in rough water Or in nasty weather. Not to mention that things like Harmonic Chorous or Joyous noise or some bardic music abilities need concentration to continue if you take damage or whatever. Yeah, but how many of those will you run into at APL 2? You can take it at 3rd if you really feel like you'll need to concentrate a lot in APL 4 mods. Plus, you have a grand total of 3 0th and 1 1st level spell to cast and first level, whereas your bard song will be a significant boost to every combat. I feel that these two feats are fundamentally more useful as a first and second level character. And the all-important one solberg left out: DimDooring out of a grapple. And then there are the times you're hit by a readied attack in response to your casting. Or when you have to run into a Large creature's reach to cast Cure Light to save your friend. -Matt enjoys his +40 Concentration courtesy of Melodic Spellcasting. Guys, I'm not saying I won't need the feat. I'm *taking* the feat at level 6. It's simply not that great of a 1st level feat.
cetiken 03-09-07, 05:35 PM	Gota agree with magebeast. Its a great feet, but my level 2 bard hasn't needed it yet. I cast inspriartional boost as my only 1st level spell/day then play my tune. Bards probably draw less 'aggro' than any other character I've played. The only time I've enven been knocked out was when a Verbonc mod fireballed me. (that stung and made me feel good since without my gnomic constitution i would have died). Anyway, I'm gona take it at 3rd (despite hypothetical situations I mentioned earlier - the ability to play and cast simultaneously is pretty cool). And won't have felt any hurt with its lack (assuming the next couple mods go well).
solbergb 03-12-07, 11:22 AM	Yeah, but how many of those will you run into at APL 2?. I've had Entangle spells (and tanglefoot bags), web spells bad weather and horseback riding and boat trips at level 2. And I've watched spellcasters without concentration be shut down by entangles or web spells almost as much as they would be while grappled in a silence field. It's kind of pathetic. However in the case of a bard, you've got at least one bardsong to contribute with and your L1 spellcasting is practically meaningless anyway (a couple daze spells, that's about it). So it isn't as bad as a wizard or sorcerer in that situation.
Mattastrophic 03-12-07, 12:47 PM	Melodic Casting also lets you sing through one combat, use the CLW wand to heal party members, then stretch that same +2/+2 out to the next combat. So at that point Melodic Casting becomes Extra Music, but better. -Matt
solbergb 03-12-07, 01:37 PM	My first "field test" of melodic casting went like this: Used two bardsongs during buff session (have inspire spellpower) First combat, didn't have bardsong running at outset because I seriously wasn't expecting bandits to dare to attack a party mounted on phantom steeds. Little effect. Next situation wasn't a combat as such, but something that called for rapid movement for whole party. Burned 3 haste spells and 4 bardsongs (lyric song). Had a couple bardsongs and L2 spell slots left at end of day. Day two Used one bardsong during buff session. Combat had bardsong running at outset and spent the entire combat casting swift invis, haste, glitterdust and healing spells. It was a long fight due to stealth capabilities of enemies. Broke the bardsong to help with intimidating bad guys. Saved - net one bardsong but more importantly one standard action to restart it (or a couple rounds without it) Started up the bardsong again and maintained while investigating nasty trapped stronghold, able to cast utility spells while maintaining bardsong. Saved about one bardsong. Entering final combat, had plenty of spell slots left, and plenty of bardsongs, and harmonic chorus entering the combat. Combat didn't last long enough to stretch my capability, but I had plenty of "ammunition" at the end of the day. In this game, extra bardsong vs melodic casting was pretty much a wash. Had the events transpired all in one day, I would not have needed the 4 hastes to close up in the rescue scene(we would have had phantom steeds running still) and the likely outcome would have been that either feat would have gotten me to the last battle with sufficient resources to contribute. From a flavor standpoint, and a "no hassles" standpoint melodic casting is very cool though. As long as my character sticks to spellcasting she can keep the drum-inspire courage up. If she participates in social skills or needs the more specialized songs, the feat does nothing. The way I play her though, a lot of why she used to have to recast bardsongs was spell or spell trigger interruptions. The perform skill as concentration is just a bonus (I'm still keeping my +13 concentration check from the "real" skill because she fights mounted a fair amount and has "duration concentration" spells. It is nice to be able to cast defensively without rolling though, and when I get dim door next level it will be VERY nice to use perform to make the DC24 check to get out of grapples)
magebeast 03-12-07, 06:19 PM	Melodic Casting also lets you sing through one combat, use the CLW wand to heal party members, then stretch that same +2/+2 out to the next combat. So at that point Melodic Casting becomes Extra Music, but better. -Matt I really, really think you'll get more mileage out of extra music - especially at first level, but I suppose whatever floats your boat.
Timlagor 03-12-07, 08:59 PM	How about Lingering Song?
Mattastrophic 03-12-07, 11:42 PM	How about Lingering Song? Melodic Casting trumps Lingering Song as well. Lingering Song just makes your bardsong last longer after you stop singing, while Melodic Casting means you don't stop singing in the first place. I could see Lingering Song for specialized Warchanter/Dragonsong Lyrist/etc builds, though, where you're constantly changing songs. -Matt
solbergb 03-13-07, 09:55 AM	lingering song kind of sucks, because it only works on like 2 of the zillions of bardsongs out there, and none of the ones from feats or PRC's. It's worthless for a warchanter except to keep your (non-advancing) inspire courage up longer. If, for example, it kept inspire awe or ironskin chant running longer, that would be cool. But it doesn't. There are a few cases where it is better than melodic casting, but not many. For nearly every bard extra bardsong is better than lingering song, and as we've discussed, melodic casting is at least comparable to extra bardsong in conserving songs for caster-oriented bards.