Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grantor 03-22-07, 08:51 PM	Wow! It's too bad that this beautiful book came out well after the LGCS. There are lots of low-level items, which has always been a gap in magic items lists. Generally, first and second level tank characters would just save up all of their cash until they could afford a magic weapon, while buying armor out of the boring, old, PHB. Now there are tons of things of interest. All awaiting access on an AR... And, with level-appropriate lists that list about 75 items for each level of play, that's a whole lot of ARs before someone might hit access to the item they were hoping for. But, there's no helping it. That's the system that works for LG. ------------------------------- I haven't gone through and checked to see what changes were made to existing items. Anyone else done this? I understand from the books forward that most of the items taken from the Complete and Races of books were changed to make them better balanced and/or more appealing. I certainly agree with the ascertion that PC's are only interested in Stat boosters, Weapons, and Armor (in varying order) and that all other items have to be very helpful or wisely prices to end up on a character's equipment list. I also noticed that including wands with ten charges in the equipment lists is very standard for the lower levels, something that LG does not put into practice as yet. That's something I'd like to see for APL 2 and 4, instead of sinking all of your funds in the a wand of cure light wounds and then not being able to afford anything for a while. In fact, full 50 charge wands don't even appear in the found treasure lists! And, I think appropriately, third level wands are set as sixth level treasure (at 10 charges). And relics that work! Except, only a very specific character is really going to get the most from one of these (specific cleric or True Believer in that diety's relic). That's certainly not a good candidate for AR access. Too bad. But, supposedly, +6 stat items are out of reach for 15th level characters. They have been ranked as a 17th level item (based on cost vs. PC total treasure value). Of course that really means that you sell off several top end items to get up to that exalted +6 enhancement bonus. It's probably worth it. Any other comments out there? Items you pine for, mistakes you think they made in valuation vs item ability? Any other missing items, such as the illustration of gauntlets of infinite blades on pg 102, which was hard to find in the book? (It was listed under "gauntlet", with no 's'.)
trollbill 03-22-07, 10:55 PM	Well, I am sure some people won't be happy with the clearer wording on the duration of a Cloak of Elemental Protection.
cycloptic_squirrel 03-23-07, 12:04 AM	Actually, if it's clearer (i.e. no table variation), I will be happy. What happened, btw?
Crazy Boro 03-23-07, 01:15 AM	I believe it was changed to where it only works for the 1 round that it was activated in.
cycloptic_squirrel 03-23-07, 01:24 AM	:headexplo I lied! Squirrel rage! Smash puny Magic Item Compendium! :hoppingma Nah. Still happy. :) Much more restrictictive than I had interpreted it, but much more in line with it's cost.
Madfox11 03-23-07, 06:44 AM	Wow! It's too bad that this beautiful book came out well after the LGCS. There are lots of low-level items, which has always been a gap in magic items lists. Generally, first and second level tank characters would just save up all of their cash until they could afford a magic weapon, while buying armor out of the boring, old, PHB. Now there are tons of things of interest. All awaiting access on an AR... You do realize that even if it had been available before the LGCS nothing in it would have been made open? Item access is through ARs, and the biggest reason for removing the limited list was to make it easier for authors to use new books.
Timlagor 03-23-07, 07:38 AM	Haven't seen the book yet but. - much as I enjoy my 3 cloaks of Elemental Protection (hand 2 out) it's right that it's duration be fixed there - +6 items not until 17th level? ...they're smoking something (assuming that is for the *first* +6 item) - you do indeed need a very fine item to displace an Primary*-Attribute-booster from a body slot but there are still slots that are spare. - More low-level items is great... but don't expect me to buy things I'm going to want to sell again any time soon. (especially in LG where I can't just keep what I find and the gp caps assume that I will never lose any wealth on reselling or using consummables) * Primary-Attributes: - Con for anyone - Casting Attribute - Strength for non-casters - Dex for anyone in light/no armour
Eric Anondson 03-23-07, 05:31 PM	- you do indeed need a very fine item to displace an Primary*-Attribute-booster from a body slot but there are still slots that are spare.The deisgners said this is precisely something they took into mind when considering every item. They consider there are is a "big six" that every item needs to compete against. In part 1 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20070302a) they list them as: Magic weapon Magic armor & shield Ring of protection Cloak of resistance Amulet of natural armor Ability-score boosters If some item fits a body slot normally used by one of these items it must compete on usefulness and price. Thus why much was reduced in price. The three design and development articles give important insight on what they considered. By inference, it seems that the designers feel that no single item should take up more than about 1/8th a PCs wealth. Looking at the tables in the back of the book this seems so. I'm not sure I agree with it. I happily dropped most of my character's wealth (more than half) to grab for my 15th level character a belt of magnificence +4 (normally 100,000 but grabbed with a Dyvers bull market at 10% discount). So worth it! The table would seem to imply that he shouldn't be getting it until level 21 or so. His +6 equivalent armor (+1 breastplate of heavy fortification) he purchased way back at 12th level but the table says 17th level is appropriate. Of course, all of his things were purchased long before many of these interesting cheap items were collected in the MIC, so maybe I would have instead spent his gp on the cheap stuff were they available back then instead of saving it all level after level for the no-brainer items and nothing else. I seem to have done just that with a different character. She has received access to very inexpensive, melee improving items at low levels right when she could use them. Belt of one mighty blow, armbands of might, gloves of fortunate striking, as a result of dumping her earned gold on those she hasn't the wealth available to improve her weapon beyond +1 and the character is now 9th level (and a single adventure away from upgrading it to flaming burst finally).
Maesto 03-23-07, 06:55 PM	ok, now that's getting silly. I've seen a belt of magnificence +2, and I thought that it was a ridiculous item to have in LG. Do you mean to tell me that somebody put in access to a +4 belt?!
Eric Anondson 03-23-07, 07:06 PM	Do you mean to tell me that somebody put in access to a +4 belt?!Ayup. :cool:
lunarfish 03-23-07, 09:50 PM	Actually, LG has had instances of all the way up to Belt of Magnificence +6. I've had access to all three, and sadly, only once did I have enough gold for one (the +2 version). EDIT: Oops, looks like I lied. I was too low of an APL to get access to the Belt +6. Oh well. My character didn't have the gold, anyway (and it was more than 3 ARs ago).
Maesto 03-24-07, 07:40 AM	Bleargh! *would love to see a BoM+6, he'd go ahead and craft the bloody thing* Too bad it would take 40 TUs to do so... The slightly wrong thing is that I wouldn't have to sell much to get there either.
Highlander3751 03-27-07, 12:27 AM	Wow! It's too bad that this beautiful book came out well after the LGCS. :lightbulb Not so fast, now. With the removal of the "Limited List", as Madfox11 mentioned above, we have more options. Rather than a list of allowed and disallowed books, the new rule just says that you must bring in a book if you wish to use a rule from it. Sounds like opportunity to me!:schemes:
lunarfish 03-27-07, 12:30 AM	I have an interesting question: I have an item from the Minis Handbook - it has been updated in the Magic Item Compendium. Do I now use the new version of the item as presented in the Magic Item Compendium, or do I use the MH version?
haferka 03-27-07, 03:07 AM	I have an interesting question: I have an item from the Minis Handbook - it has been updated in the Magic Item Compendium. Do I now use the new version of the item as presented in the Magic Item Compendium, or do I use the MH version? For all rule items.. use the latest printed version. So, yes.. use the updated item from Magic Item Compendium. Or, at least that is my understanding.. Post the question to Britt in the sticky thread.
cycloptic_squirrel 03-27-07, 03:15 AM	LGCS page 11, "LG uses the most recent printing of rules options from any of the books listed at the beginning of this chapter. If a new book changes an existing rules option, continue to use the previous version until instructed otherwise by official campaign documentation." So until we get official word, use the MH version, though I suspect that we'll be using the MIC version as soon as the Circle can digest it and consider the ramifications.
Haro 03-27-07, 03:37 AM	I absolutely love the mechanic of Runestaffs. I've had a big problem with the impracticality of Staffs in 3rd edition and this is a great solution. Magical staffs are synonomous with wizards and it is a shame that you don't see them around enough because of the rules set. Bring on runestaff access! Joe
Puggle Halfwine 03-27-07, 04:58 AM	ok, now that's getting silly. I've seen a belt of magnificence +2, and I thought that it was a ridiculous item to have in LG. Do you mean to tell me that somebody put in access to a +4 belt?! I've begun to realise that lots of non-Australia regions have much, much, much better access than we're used to over here.
Madfox11 03-27-07, 06:58 AM	Well, it is very difficult to say which region has better or worse access especially based on one item. I think there has been only one adventure with access to that belt in Europe, and it was in a battle interactive (plot-line concluding) in Onnwal, infamous for its many adventures that ended with negative gold ;) Note that Cycloptic Squirrel is correct: for now you use the MH version, but we will switch to the Magic Item Compendium, which will involve an item conversion of some sort (although we have not yet even discussed the process). More news will follow, most likely in a Dispel Confusion. Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk Circle Member The Splintered Suns
Lupo 03-27-07, 07:03 AM	I've begun to realise that lots of non-Australia regions have much, much, much better access than we're used to over here. don't count innspa/ahlissa, naerie/ahlissa or even sunndi among those :weep:, i am too always amazed how some posters here and on the various yahoo groups talk about "stuff everyone has to have" or "just take NONC prestige class X" AND they seem to have easy access to it :confused:. on the pro side, at least the recent LGCS opened up access somehow :) but now all the crafters are on the quest to find the more "exotic" wondrous items :rolleyes: . ciao martin m.
lunarfish 03-27-07, 02:34 PM	Well, it is very difficult to say which region has better or worse access especially based on one item. I think there has been only one adventure with access to that belt in Europe, and it was in a battle interactive (plot-line concluding) in Onnwal, infamous for its many adventures that ended with negative gold ;) Note that Cycloptic Squirrel is correct: for now you use the MH version, but we will switch to the Magic Item Compendium, which will involve an item conversion of some sort (although we have not yet even discussed the process). More news will follow, most likely in a Dispel Confusion. Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk Circle Member The Splintered Suns Well, umm... sort of yay... I guess... So this is like a LGCS 598 update, or a "sometime this year" update, or a "we've got no idea when this is going to happen" update? Not that I'm in a hurry, mind you. I'm all for keeping my boots they way they are. Although they're slightly cheaper in the Compendium, I believe. On a side note - I believe the US regions usually have better access than the European regions (with some notable exceptions, like in the BK). I don't entirely know why, it just seems to be that way. Might be something to take up with your local authors.
pedr 03-27-07, 04:30 PM	I'm pretty sure that Britt posted somewhere (perhaps the LivingGreyhawk yahoogroup) that this would be implemented like SpC was, but might take longer - particularly as no-one, not even WotC has a list of what items have changed price or function, and such a list is needed before LG converts to the MIC items. So I'd expect it before the next LGCS, but not for a while. It is likely to end up requiring a lot of juggling of reimbursements and extra payments and possibly a 'sell at full-purchase-price' amnesty for things which have changed considerably or become more expensive and which you now can't afford, etc
Madfox11 03-28-07, 04:29 AM	On a side note - I believe the US regions usually have better access than the European regions (with some notable exceptions, like in the BK). I don't entirely know why, it just seems to be that way. Might be something to take up with your local authors. Actually, access is really not that bad in Europe. I have played and run a lot of VTF metaregionals, as well as a couple of Keoland regionals, Geoff regionals and Sheldomar Valley meta-regionals and while it is not as big as some of the more extreme examples from those regions, it is more or less on par. I encourage my triads to keep things like rods of meta-magic to a minimum and items like animated shields and belts of magnificence away completely. The items are legal though, so if the Triads insist, they can add them. I think though that the real reason for the belief of less access is that we publish less adventures and in a much less planned way, never reaching the 8 slots and hence by definition provide less access. This is especially true in the early years of the game when we were all still new and less experiences with what can and cannot be added. Hence we made less mistakes in this regard. We learned our lessons from mistakes made in the States before we could make them ourselves ;)
The_Jester 03-28-07, 10:34 AM	It's a trick book that will cause some problems next year when it's brought in. What happens to all the gold for items that have gone up or down in price? Do you ignore it as a market change and take a gold hit or does everyone audit their sheets figuring out how much they should have spent and adding the difference? How do you track it? Unless you re-write every AR or have a special re-audit sheet there'll just be this large fund of money plopped down. The perfect place for some... creative bookkeeping or mistakes.
Nutation 03-28-07, 01:32 PM	What happens to all the gold for items that have gone up or down in price? Do you ignore it as a market change and take a gold hit or does everyone audit their sheets figuring out how much they should have spent and adding the difference? This has been done before at least twice, with the 3.0 and builder book conversions. I expect the Circle to use the same process, so it's not a mystery. You'll pay or receive gold based on the change in market price, and you'll have the option to sell an item back for full if it went up in price. The number of changes for any one character should be small, so I doubt the Circle will draft a specific conversion AR for this.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-28-07, 01:43 PM	What do you do in the case of those who crafted an item that not only changed in price, but also changed crafting requirements so that the crafter no longer qualifies to craft the item?
Crazy Boro 03-28-07, 02:00 PM	Also curious if you'll be able to sell an item back for full if you wouldn't have paid for it in the first place due to changes (even if it is cheaper).
lunarfish 03-28-07, 05:45 PM	Actually, access is really not that bad in Europe. I have played and run a lot of VTF metaregionals, as well as a couple of Keoland regionals, Geoff regionals and Sheldomar Valley meta-regionals and while it is not as big as some of the more extreme examples from those regions, it is more or less on par. I encourage my triads to keep things like rods of meta-magic to a minimum and items like animated shields and belts of magnificence away completely. The items are legal though, so if the Triads insist, they can add them. I think though that the real reason for the belief of less access is that we publish less adventures and in a much less planned way, never reaching the 8 slots and hence by definition provide less access. This is especially true in the early years of the game when we were all still new and less experiences with what can and cannot be added. Hence we made less mistakes in this regard. We learned our lessons from mistakes made in the States before we could make them ourselves ;) Hmmm... perhaps I am mistaken. It was an (apparently incorrect) observation based on the limited information before me. I've not played anything outside the continental U.S., but most of the complaints cite Perrenland or European regions as being "access starved" compared to regions like the Shield Lands, Highfolk, Dyvers, and Yeomanry.
ragecage79 03-29-07, 04:51 PM	Hmmm... perhaps I am mistaken. It was an (apparently incorrect) observation based on the limited information before me. I've not played anything outside the continental U.S., but most of the complaints cite Perrenland or European regions as being "access starved" compared to regions like the Shield Lands, Highfolk, Dyvers, and Yeomanry. Wait, so you're saying the Shield Lands isn't access starved? ;)
GreatSiron 03-30-07, 02:09 PM	Hmmm... perhaps I am mistaken. It was an (apparently incorrect) observation based on the limited information before me. I've not played anything outside the continental U.S., but most of the complaints cite Perrenland or European regions as being "access starved" compared to regions like the Shield Lands, Highfolk, Dyvers, and Yeomanry. Yes Yeomanry mods often have great access, I had access to holy at level 1 (second mod I ever played). But not getting screwed out of said access is the key, I've had two AR's where we lost everything because we didn't do something like track a beast back to it's lair.
lunarfish 03-30-07, 05:02 PM	Wait, so you're saying the Shield Lands isn't access starved? ;) Actually, we have relatively good access, compared to the stuff I've picked up in say... the BK or a certain pair of Dyvers regional mods (which I think might even be retired now... not entirely sure). SHL regional modules are very consistent at giving full xp/gold (w/o strings attached), and decent item access. Also, we get 8-9 mods a year, plus Iuzians, to pick up said good access. And how many regions hand out Belt of Magnificence +2 AND +4 access? No, seriously, I'd actually like to know.
ragecage79 03-30-07, 05:47 PM	Actually, we have relatively good access, compared to the stuff I've picked up in say... the BK or a certain pair of Dyvers regional mods (which I think might even be retired now... not entirely sure). SHL regional modules are very consistent at giving full xp/gold (w/o strings attached), and decent item access. Also, we get 8-9 mods a year, plus Iuzians, to pick up said good access. And how many regions hand out Belt of Magnificence +2 AND +4 access? No, seriously, I'd actually like to know. I was just pulling your leg (hence the smiley). We have been getting pretty good access recently it just never seems to be the right access for the character I'm playing. That's neither the triads nor my fault, just dumb luck.
Potato Weasel 03-30-07, 10:28 PM	Mm. I'm gonna want a refund on my goggles of lifesight, I bought them because i play a swashbuckler, and they let me see if my bonus to damage worked, now, three times per day as a standard action in combat just isnt gonna happen. ): I loved those lil goggles!
Potato Weasel 04-02-07, 08:49 AM	Also, bracers of quickstrike have been -severely- downgraded, instead of granting an extra attack once per day when you make a full attack (using the rules of speed weapons basically) Now it only works if you make -no- other extra attacks from sources like haste or a speed weapon (which was how it worked before) and also apparently rapid shot. Meaning that you couldnt use flurry or two weapon fighting when you activate the bracers either. ): This is another thing im gonna ask for a refund on- my characters all about extra attacks, sadly, this negates having other extra attacks. Ah well, i suppose if worse comes to worse i can get half price on em both.
Madfox11 04-02-07, 09:16 AM	Also, bracers of quickstrike have been -severely- downgraded, instead of granting an extra attack once per day when you make a full attack (using the rules of speed weapons basically) If I remember correctly, bracers of quickstrike never stacked with haste...
Potato Weasel 04-02-07, 10:17 AM	No, they never stacked with haste or speed weapons, etc, thats why i said they followed the rules of speed weapons, but now they dont stack with rapidshot, flurry, two weapon fighting, slashing flurry, etc.
Bogjob 04-04-07, 11:21 AM	Well, it is very difficult to say which region has better or worse access especially based on one item. I think there has been only one adventure with access to that belt in Europe, and it was in a battle interactive (plot-line concluding) in Onnwal, infamous for its many adventures that ended with negative gold ;) Being Onnwalese I know what you mean, it has to be said on the single year 6Onnwal mod that came out I actually got access to magical items, crap ones, but magical none the less. Most of us here have got used to praying for access's on Cores or Metaregionals.
pedr 04-10-07, 05:33 PM	Bumping this because I just noticed an error I want to bring to the Circle's attention. The entry for Cold Iron in the MIC is completely wrong - it swaps the 2x cost and +2000gp into the wrong column - so if you were to use those rules as written a non-magical, non-masterwork cold iron longsword would cost 2,015gp instead of the 30gp it ought to be. Customer Service agrees with me that it's an error. I'll copy/paste their response to my question below. I just wanted to point it out so that the Circle can jump through whatever hoops are necessary to ensure that this error doesn't get implemented in LG when the MIC is introduced - as it would make Fae and certain outsiders ridiculously under CR'd! Subject Cold Iron in the Magic Item Compendium Discussion Thread Response (Trevor K.) 04/10/2007 01:50 PM Hey there Peter! The information in the Dungeon Masters Guide is actually correct on this one, and it looks like the stats got flipped when it was printed in the Magic Item Compendium. Cold Iron doubles the price of the original weapon and adds +2000 for any magical enhancement that the owner wants to put on it. Sorry for the confusion. Have fun and good gaming! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Trevor Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST Customer (Peter Griffith) 04/10/2007 07:43 AM On page 27 of the MIC the Special Materials Table (2-1) lists Cold Iron as costing twice as much for magical enhancements and also adding +2000gp to the cost. The text references the DMG, which says that base cost of a cold iron weapon is twice the normal cost, and that each magical enhancement costs an additional 2000gp. It isn't clear how these statements fit together, and I find it hard to believe that a non-magical, non-masterwork cold iron longsword ought to cost 2,015gp now, instead of 30gp previously. Could you clarify this? Many thanks
Eric Anondson 04-10-07, 06:25 PM	Well, I don't think it ever had a chance of being implemented because the wording also said that the table was merely a summary of the info in the DMG. It didn't, in fact, summarize the DMG with regards to cold iron, it just reversed it. The MIC had other errors also, and who knows what else hasn't been found. At a scan I noticed: - Shields left off the adamantine prices... again. - Weapon hit points and hardness, wrong... again. Technically, it is wrong in one place, and correct in another place. - Eyes of the eagle, in the MIC table on page 247, wrongly summarized the ability as bestowing a +5 Search bonus.
Mommy was an Orc 04-10-07, 08:18 PM	No, they never stacked with haste or speed weapons, etc, thats why i said they followed the rules of speed weapons, but now they dont stack with rapidshot, flurry, two weapon fighting, slashing flurry, etc. Yeah, I have two characters who will basically have to turn around and sell the things as soon as MIC is adopted. In both cases, it isn't a huge deal(one will be moving into Boots of Speed territory, the other badly needs to enchant herself Bracers of Armor) But in most cases that the Bracers of Quickstrike is now restricting, it is stopping a 1d8+strength attack(at a penalty to hit no less) and allowing a 2d6+strength*1.5 to go through.
Potato Weasel 04-11-07, 08:26 AM	I just played a mod over the weekend that gave access to set items from the back of MIC! Hooray!
Enaloindir 04-17-07, 03:46 AM	+6 items not until 17th level? ...they're smoking something (assuming that is for the *first* +6 item A +6 stat booster is available at lvl 17 if you buy a new item. If you upgrade your stat booster throughout the character's carreer, the upgrade from a +4 to +6 item occurs at level 15. If you trade some item slots, you can easily obtain it at level 13 (using item level slots 13, 13, 11, 11, and 8). His +6 equivalent armor (+1 breastplate of heavy fortification) he purchased way back at 12th level but the table says 17th level is appropriate. Actually, if you use the Upgrading Items: an efficient alternative sidebar on page 229, a +6 armor or shield can be purchased at level 13, by spending money on upgrades at levels 4, 7, 9, 10, 12 and 13. In your case, you could simply put aside the money spent at these times, and use it all at once at level 13 to upgrade your +1 breastplate to a +1 heavy fortification breastplate. Another option is to trade your 2 level 11 item slots for a single level 13 slot. This way, your +1 heavy fortification breastplate becomes available at level 12...not that different from the level at which you bought it. ;) Finally, I'm sure that by actually calculating your actual amount of wealth spent, the breastplate would also be available at lvl 12 if you like. All in all, I really like the new system. :D Enaloindir
Timlagor 04-17-07, 06:13 PM	I've actually read the section on levels now. They are not in any way a restriction: they are just a guideline for quickly equipping a character. Also in a campaign where - all (lots of) the goodies in the MIC are allowed - you get to keep and use what you find then sell it later (only taking the gp hit for selling once anyway) People may well not feel the need to invest in the 'bigger ticket' items so early.
Samwise 04-18-07, 02:07 AM	I've actually read the section on levels now. They are not in any way a restriction: they are just a guideline for quickly equipping a character. Also in a campaign where - all (lots of) the goodies in the MIC are allowed - you get to keep and use what you find then sell it later (only taking the gp hit for selling once anyway) They can be a restriction in terms of access. If NPCs are equipped along those lines, then there will be less access to high ticket items. That is a very direct, and very obvious connection. If the NPCs don't have the items, the PCs can never buy them. People may well not feel the need to invest in the 'bigger ticket' items so early. To some extent, that sets up a self-justifying feedback loop With more useful low value items available, more are purchased instead of the big ticket items. As players do so, their MILs come to contain items that reflect the "quick and dirty" equipment tables of the Magic Item Compendium. Since the players, theoretically, become more versatile and thus more powerful from being so equipped, the NPCs need to be equipped the same way. As the NPCs are equipped that way, fewer big ticket items are available to the PCs . . . That's why a rule would never be needed for this. All that has to be done is make more of those low value items available, presumably by equipping NPCs with them, and let things go from there. There's a bunch of the low value items in the book I'd love to get my character's hands on, and the heck with super-items.
Timlagor 04-18-07, 11:22 AM	My second point/premise/requirement (above) makes my conclusion completely wrong for LG. In LG all those nice cheap items get "sold" automatically at the end of the module so any use of them has a very real long term cost (there are plenty of things that are well worth that cost of course but unfortuantely a lot of the interesting stuff is not) -some of it is simply underpriced (mostly slotted items with 3/day uses that are well worth buying in multiples) Many of the things people want to buy much earlier than the 'level' are OPEN so the Access question doesn't arise (unless someone changes the rules which I think would be very bad). It's also a 'quick and dirty' way to equip NPCs and shouldn't be used for key figures (BBEGs) in any (lasting) campaign.
Samwise 04-18-07, 12:09 PM	My second point/premise/requirement (above) makes my conclusion completely wrong for LG. In LG all those nice cheap items get "sold" automatically at the end of the module so any use of them has a very real long term cost (there are plenty of things that are well worth that cost of course but unfortuantely a lot of the interesting stuff is not) -some of it is simply underpriced (mostly slotted items with 3/day uses that are well worth buying in multiples) Many of the things people want to buy much earlier than the 'level' are OPEN so the Access question doesn't arise (unless someone changes the rules which I think would be very bad). It's also a 'quick and dirty' way to equip NPCs and shouldn't be used for key figures (BBEGs) in any (lasting) campaign. Indeed. Just in case: I'm not disagreeing about what will, might, or should be done in LG. I am just commenting on what the effect could possibly be if more of those "low ticket" magic items start appearing on ARs. As you note, with the big items, particularly stat boost items, open access, there is nothing to stop people from saving for them. The presence of reasonably attractive low ticket items could change that, making people more likely to get a bunch of little toys instead of a few super-items. Whether this happens remains to be seen. I think for myself, if there were more low ticket items around I'd be inclined to pick them up rather that push for the super-item. Also, a profusion of low ticket items also means a greater chance of finding an item to fill a body slot that otherwise would remain empty. 500-1,000 gp to fill it, and 6 minor items instead of a 10,000 gp super-item might be more useful. As with most such changes, we shall all have to wait and see.
Lightblade 04-18-07, 03:47 PM	Another point that's come up on the yahoogroups but not in this thread are the official rules on adding properties to existing items. The MIC states that many of the Big Six abilities (Armor bonus, nat armor bonus, deflection bonus, resistance bonus, stat boost) can be added to a certain set of items (via body slot affinities) at standard cost (and not 1.5x cost). So, I could turn my Mantle of Second Chances into a Mantle of Second Chances and Resistance +3, or my Circlet of Persuasion into a Circlet of Persuasion and Cha + 2, and this would cost just as much as the sum of the two seperate items should cost. Discuss. :)
pedr 04-18-07, 05:08 PM	You'd need access to add things to other items. The access should spell out how it would work! Of course NPCs will be able to be equipped with a Cloak of Resistance +1 Charisma +2 which means they might end up on ARs.
Madfox11 04-19-07, 03:50 AM	You'd need access to add things to other items. The access should spell out how it would work! As in: the favor should spell out that a non-standard item can be upgraded with that same favor.
Timlagor 04-19-07, 10:18 PM	I expect that this will be addressed then MIC actually hits the campaign properly (as opposed to it's current Ajar status). I would hope that the Circle will either declare all such items to be standard (preferably with the rules for them Open) or ban the whole idea. [I really really dislike Britt's interpretation of the current rules for non-standard Bracers of Armour (I actually don't believe that he is right about what the rules he wrote mean as written)... that's another thread but I'd hate to see something similar happen here: especially if the Campaign Rules about it are as vague/unclear/counterintuitive]
Maesto 04-20-07, 12:06 PM	I've had a quick look at the book now. I'm quite please with a couple of things I noticed: Steadfast boots have been fixed, although they've also been made slightly more useful, as they now state that you do double damage when somebody charges you. Magebane has been fixed - it's now no longer dragonbane, gnomebane, all-outsiderbanes, as well as wizard and sorcerorbane. Now it's only wizard and sorcerorbane, which is much more in line with what is should be. The rod of sure striking has been fixed - now only a +5 bonus, but only affecting allies. I'm happy with all of these, and look forward to the new rules introduction =)
qstor 12-18-07, 01:34 PM	*bump* Was there ever a Dispel Confusion on the topic of what version to use?
pedr 12-18-07, 05:04 PM	Not to my knowledge. At present I believe that best practice is to use the version of an item which you purchased, i.e. the version which you had access to. I imagine that if you had access to either version you could purchase either version but ought to specify, if the price is the same! Some GMs may use the MIC as errata for reprinted items; I think that's unfair as it ought to come with the option to sell back items at full cost, as with previous conversions. It's slightly more fair with items which were amiguous in the original (Cloak of Elemental Protection I'm looking at you!) as a GM has to make a ruling on how it works in any case, and saying "I'm going with the MIC version" is as good a ruling as any other. I would be extremely surprised if we see a conversion document or anything similar - I think we're too close to the end of the campaign for volunteers to consider working on that to be a priority.
bitznarf 12-18-07, 05:22 PM	Not to my knowledge. At present I believe that best practice is to use the version of an item which you purchased, i.e. the version which you had access to. I imagine that if you had access to either version you could purchase either version but ought to specify, if the price is the same! How does this mesh with the 'use the most recent printed book' rule? According to that rule, MIC already takes precedence over the other books.
magebeast 12-18-07, 07:01 PM	How does this mesh with the 'use the most recent printed book' rule? According to that rule, MIC already takes precedence over the other books. Reprinted Rules Options LG uses the most recent printing of rules options from any of the books listed at the beginning of this chapter. If a new book changes an existing rules option, continue to use the previous version until instructed otherwise by official campaign documentation. If the campaign changes to use the printing of a rules option in a new book that you do not own and do not plan to purchase, you may gain an immediate, free use of Retraining for the purpose of replacing the updated rules option. The MIC isn't listed in the LGCS yet.
bitznarf 12-18-07, 08:02 PM	Ah, yes. My mistake.
magebeast 12-18-07, 08:26 PM	Ah, yes. My mistake. I actually had to look it up before replying actually, because I wasn't sure.
JohnduBois 12-20-07, 07:12 AM	Magebane has been fixed - it's now no longer dragonbane, gnomebane, all-outsiderbanes, as well as wizard and sorcerorbane. Now it's only wizard and sorcerorbane, which is much more in line with what is should be. Don't forget warlockbane!
Mr.Boots 12-20-07, 09:53 AM	Just my opinion, but i think that half the stuff in the MIC has been underpriced, sometimes dramatically. For one, when my PCs go shopping, ALL the items they want have come out of that book, and the "big 6" dont even get a look in. Whenever they find amultes of nat. armour or cloaks of resistance, they sell it and ask if the shop has any more belts of healing :mad: 750 gp for 6d8 pts of healing EACH DAY, sure its over 3 rounds, but massing these things keeps them on full hp between fights. Potions of healing get the boot. They bought about 7 of them before i jacked the base price up to 3000, imo that item is just flat out imba. 3 400 for the goggles of seeing(i think thats what its called). 3 charges a day. 1 charge gives darkvision for an hour, 2 charges gives see invis for 10 minutes, 3 charges gives true seeing for a minute. Also gives constant +2 spot. This item just means players will never memorise any of these spells because this multipurpose ultra cheap head slot can shut down any encounter involving illusion/invisibility/darkness whenever they are needed. you could buy 10 of them and not even be halfway to a gem of seeing (75k), and lets be honest, when are you going to need more than 10 minutes of true seeing in a single day? 15 000 gets the circlet of quick casting (or whatever) and again it isnt balanced against the DMG. Lesser rod of quickening is 35 k and isnt MUCH better than this item, definitely not more than twice as good. In my campaign at least, all this book has done is confuse wealth and power by level guidelines and given me headaches when i decide to jack up the cost of some of these things and subsequently have to deal with whinging players. Just wanted to put it out there that for these reasons im hostile to the MIC. Did they just make the items stronger so more players would buy it?
qstor 12-20-07, 12:51 PM	Yeah someone on a local list asked about the MIC and I was seeing if someone from the Co6 could clarify about "the most recent rulebook" rule and the MIC. I think costs of items have changed too. Mike
magebeast 12-20-07, 01:03 PM	Just my opinion, but i think that half the stuff in the MIC has been underpriced, sometimes dramatically. For one, when my PCs go shopping, ALL the items they want have come out of that book, and the "big 6" dont even get a look in. Whenever they find amultes of nat. armour or cloaks of resistance, they sell it and ask if the shop has any more belts of healing :mad: 750 gp for 6d8 pts of healing EACH DAY, sure its over 3 rounds, but massing these things keeps them on full hp between fights. Potions of healing get the boot. They bought about 7 of them before i jacked the base price up to 3000, imo that item is just flat out imba. 3 400 for the goggles of seeing(i think thats what its called). 3 charges a day. 1 charge gives darkvision for an hour, 2 charges gives see invis for 10 minutes, 3 charges gives true seeing for a minute. Also gives constant +2 spot. This item just means players will never memorise any of these spells because this multipurpose ultra cheap head slot can shut down any encounter involving illusion/invisibility/darkness whenever they are needed. you could buy 10 of them and not even be halfway to a gem of seeing (75k), and lets be honest, when are you going to need more than 10 minutes of true seeing in a single day? 15 000 gets the circlet of quick casting (or whatever) and again it isnt balanced against the DMG. Lesser rod of quickening is 35 k and isnt MUCH better than this item, definitely not more than twice as good. In my campaign at least, all this book has done is confuse wealth and power by level guidelines and given me headaches when i decide to jack up the cost of some of these things and subsequently have to deal with whinging players. Just wanted to put it out there that for these reasons im hostile to the MIC. Did they just make the items stronger so more players would buy it? The idea behind the MIC is that not all items were properly priced before this.
bitznarf 12-20-07, 01:13 PM	That, and they wanted to give the 'normal' items that everyone bought from the DMG some competition for each magic item slot. Also note that the items in there have a recommended level associated with them as well. Another thing that throws it out of whack is the way LG access is handled. In a home game, the DM controls how many of each item a PC can get. In LG, it is harder to do that sort of thing, doubly so with crafting.
dkay807 12-20-07, 04:51 PM	15 000 gets the circlet of quick casting (or whatever) and again it isnt balanced against the DMG. Lesser rod of quickening is 35 k and isnt MUCH better than this item, definitely not more than twice as good. Keep in mind that the circlet is slotted while a Rod really isn't (yeah, you have to hold it in your hand - not an issue for most). This is why Rods are expensive, in general. No Wizard is ever going to use that Circlet due to needing a Headband of Intellect a whole lot more.
copperwyrmling 12-20-07, 05:03 PM	Keep in mind that the circlet is slotted while a Rod really isn't (yeah, you have to hold it in your hand - not an issue for most). This is why Rods are expensive, in general. No Wizard is ever going to use that Circlet due to needing a Headband of Intellect a whole lot more. Nice for sorcerers, though. And if you're actually using the MIC rules in full, slot consumption is much less of an issue, as you can add properties to existing items.
dkay807 12-20-07, 06:00 PM	Nice for sorcerers, though. And if you're actually using the MIC rules in full, slot consumption is much less of an issue, as you can add properties to existing items. Yes, it is nice for sorcs. Sadly, I don't see those rules for combining abilities from multiple items into one ever coming into play without special access. However, if they do, then yee-haw.
Mattastrophic 12-20-07, 07:23 PM	I'd be very grateful if the Circle allowed me to make Wings of Flying of Charisma +6 and a Greater Choker of Eloquence of Health +6 of Fortune Prevailing for the end times, though. -Matt
dkay807 12-20-07, 08:56 PM	I'd be very grateful if the Circle allowed me to make Wings of Flying of Charisma +6 and a Greater Choker of Eloquence of Health +6 of Fortune Prevailing for the end times, though. -Matt Belt of Battle and Giant Strength +6 anyone? Thanks. How about an Amulet of Health +6 and Fortune Prevailing? A Mantle of Charisma +6 and Second Chances. Aww, you shouldn't have. Winged Boots of Speed for me? That's awfully sweet. I could go on.
Mattastrophic 12-20-07, 11:02 PM	To be precise, I'd be even more appreciative if the top APLs of the Year 8 modules were challenging enough to make me want better items. -Matt
RanielK 12-23-07, 02:32 PM	I'd be very grateful if the Circle allowed me to make Wings of Flying of Charisma +6 and a Greater Choker of Eloquence of Health +6 of Fortune Prevailing for the end times, though. -Matt You forgot the of Resistance +5 for the wings. And YES PLEASE for me too!:D
Mattastrophic 12-23-07, 03:01 PM	You forgot the of Resistance +5 for the wings. And YES PLEASE for me too!:D Nahh, I already have a Vest +5 for that. -Matt
Vamroc 12-31-07, 09:38 PM	I absolutely love the mechanic of Runestaffs. I've had a big problem with the impracticality of Staffs in 3rd edition and this is a great solution. Magical staffs are synonomous with wizards and it is a shame that you don't see them around enough because of the rules set. Bring on runestaff access! Joe I Got Access to a Runestaff of Night once per day when you cast any 6th level spell instead of the spells normal effect you can use the spell to cast Summon Monster VI and call forth a Fiendish Umber Hulk once a day. The only issue is you have prepare a spell of equal level to use any of the staff's abilities however it uses no charges and you get three uses of that ability each day