Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SandShock 12-03-04, 04:05 PM	looking for some advice so i came here =) im about to start a level 1 monk (using a dwarf should be interesting) well as with the 28 point system the stats i've ended up with are str 14 +2 dex 14 +2 wis 16 +3 con 16 +3 (racial) cha 6 -2 (racial) int 8 -1 now the 16 con will help my HP but i reliased that to start out i'll have an AC of only 12. Now im certain playing a monk frontline will mean he'll get pounded on every single attack with such a low AC. so my question is how can i boost that AC at level 1?
kenobi65 12-03-04, 04:21 PM	so my question is how can i boost that AC at level 1? Find a halfling to stand behind. ;) Are you forgetting that you get a +3 Wisdom bonus to your AC? "When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC." (PHB, p. 40) As I read it, your AC should be 15 (10, +2 Dex, +3 Wis). Not nearly as stinky now. :)
SandShock 12-03-04, 07:01 PM	see i thought about that but someone told me that u only get AC from wisdom starting at level 5 and it goes from +1 to +5 usually im not confused by these things but my PHB has gone walk about
smerwin29 12-03-04, 10:05 PM	see i thought about that but someone told me that u only get AC from wisdom starting at level 5 and it goes from +1 to +5 usually im not confused by these things but my PHB has gone walk about At 5th level you get an extra +1 to AC, which gradually increases up to +4 at 20th level. That is in addition to your other bonuses, including the Wisdom bonus. So your character starts with a AC of 15, which includes touch attacks, which is not too shabby as a 1st level character with no armor. Get an arcane caster friend to cast mage armor on you (including purchasing a scroll for 25 gp), and you are looking at AC 19. As you get higher level and get more access to magic and spellcasting friends, that number can grow quickly. Shawn
kenobi65 12-03-04, 11:08 PM	see i thought about that but someone told me that u only get AC from wisdom starting at level 5 and it goes from +1 to +5 That someone is misinformed. Quoting the longer passage: When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition (emphasis mine), a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level). The Wisdom-based bonus, and the level-based bonus, are independent from one another. Hope this makes it clearer.
SandShock 12-04-04, 06:28 PM	ah thats a great help guys especially the tip on Mage armor scrolls, thanks for the quick responces too =). i just hope this character isnt knocked out by kobolds and looted of everything while they take all the partys equipment on a war horse. of course it's unlikely thatd happen twice in a row...
solbergb 12-06-04, 01:13 PM	As an aside, I've had pretty good luck using AC as a "dump stat" on my monk...ie doing nothing to raise AC, 8 wisdom, the whole nine yards. Nothing but 14 dex and the AC bump every 5 levels. This monk is grapple/trip/mobility oriented not stunning fist oriented, which is a lot of why it works. He gets away with low AC because he can often make the attack fail before it even happens, or at least mess people up so they can't take full attacks. (a grappled opponent can't use big weapons or multiple natural attack sequences, a pinned one can't even use light weapons, a charging opponent can be tripped before he gets to you, if you trip someone and 5' step backward they can't full attack you, a prone guy can't fire his bow, deflect arrows can be demoralizing, combat reflexes+hold the line = guaranteed AOOs during surprise rounds to mess up incoming attacks for front line fighters, etc) All those extra resources many monks put into AC (magic items, wisdom, etc) pretty much went into things that improved strength, mobility, hitpoints and saving throws. He's one adventure from level 9 and doesn't seem to have any more trouble being a frontline fighter than the characters that went AC heavy. They're better at some situations, my guy is better at others. I do think that AC on a monk works better with the stunning fist style monks (who have their dex bonus to AC most of the time, who benefit offense+defense by having wisdom high, etc). The average monk will have about 14 AC at level 1, and potions of mage armor are pretty cheap. You can get to 20 AC without spending too much cash, but doing much above that takes a commitment, and is more expensive for a monk than it is for the fullplate guy. A medium ground (some AC, but use your mobility and special attacks to cut down on the amount of time enemies get to swing at you) is usually best.
oroborous 12-06-04, 09:30 PM	The best thing I can think of for a starting monk is to have potions of Mage Armor on his person. This may be hard on the first one, but you should have enough gold to buy a few for your next adventure. After that, you can buy all the magic items you can afford to help. Remember you can get the following items to boost your AC without any campaign documentation although, if your monk has taken a vow of poverty, it might be hard to buy them. Ring of Protection +1 = 2000gp Amulet of Natural Armor +1 = 2000gp Gloves of Dexterity +2 = 4000gp Periapt of Wisdom +2 = 4000gp I've been seeing a lot of mods with upgrades to the stat boost items too, so you could get your stats even greater at the higher APLs. Other things you could do, are get potions of Blur or Displacement if you have access to them. If you get access to a Cloak of Displacement that would be even better.
King Kashue 12-07-04, 02:50 AM	The best thing I can think of for a starting monk is to have potions of Mage Armor on his person. This may be hard on the first one, but you should have enough gold to buy a few for your next adventure. After that, you can buy all the magic items you can afford to help. Remember you can get the following items to boost your AC without any campaign documentation although, if your monk has taken a vow of poverty, it might be hard to buy them. Ring of Protection +1 = 2000gp Amulet of Natural Armor +1 = 2000gp Gloves of Dexterity +2 = 4000gp Periapt of Wisdom +2 = 4000gp I've been seeing a lot of mods with upgrades to the stat boost items too, so you could get your stats even greater at the higher APLs. Other things you could do, are get potions of Blur or Displacement if you have access to them. If you get access to a Cloak of Displacement that would be even better. Minor Cloak of Displacement is 24K though :P
Simpi 12-07-04, 03:09 AM	, if your monk has taken a vow of poverty, it might be hard to buy them. There is no such thing in LG. S.H, Naerie webslave
SandShock 12-07-04, 05:21 PM	thats all really great advice thanks so how much for potions of mage armor? what feats and skills are really useful for a monk to get at the first level? and what should i be working towards getting.
Nidome 12-07-04, 06:18 PM	thats all really great advice thanks so how much for potions of mage armor? what feats and skills are really useful for a monk to get at the first level? and what should i be working towards getting. Potions of Mage Armour are 50gp. At some point you may want to consider buying a 1st level pearl of power when you get access to it. There is a reasonable chance that you will adventure with a wizard or sorcerer who has a mage armour memorised for themselves, lend them the pearl of power and then they can cast it on you. At one hour per level it's a good buff to get cast on you from memory. I now have a 10th Level Monk. I do not wear bracers of armour, instead putting my faith in mage armour spells (potion or cast by a friendly mage). Before mage armour is cast I have an AC of 26(T:25/FF21). By fighting defensively with mage armour I can bump my AC to 33 and I have quite poor item access (No stat boost above +2, natural armour amulet only +1) Nick.
solbergb 12-07-04, 07:27 PM	thats all really great advice thanks what feats and skills are really useful for a monk to get at the first level? and what should i be working towards getting. As a contrast to the above monk, I have an almost 9th level monk. His AC without buffing is 13 He almost never buffs. He does carry potions of mage armor and prot evil which boost his AC up to 19 for the rare situation where he feels he absolutely must have more AC. He will accept barkskin, shield of faith or mage armor from others if they have spell slots free, but it rarely comes up. I have spent no gp except for those potions on defense. All of my limited gold has gone to expanding mobility (boots of spider climb), offensive options (adamantium, silver, cold iron kama, masterwork spiked chain, masterwork shuriken of various materials, quiver of ehlonna, golembane scarab, gauntlets of ogre power) and passive toughness (amulet of health, vest of resistance +2) His saves are very good. His AC sucks. His ability to grapple or trip enemies is very good. His ability to move anywhere on the battlefield is very good. What feats and equipment you buy depends on which route you want to go. I do think though you want stunning fist no matter what. (Improved Grapple you can qualify for easily if you want it, even at first level. Stunning fist is much harder to qualify for, and if you go low wis like me, impossible without the monk feat). Other than that, it depends on your build and your emphasis. I like combat reflexes better than deflect arrows, but my character has both...one paid for with one of my ordinary feats. If you can do something useful with an AOO (like trip or grapple), Hold the Line can work very well for you, especially with a nonproficient reach weapon to get more AOO's (this is mostly useful with improved trip) If you want more defense, the dodge/mobility tree leads to several helpful feats (Spring Attack, Elusive Target and if you get lucky with access Sidestep from the Miniatures Handbook) If you have high stunning fist DC's, things like Pain Touch which are powered off of it are helpful. If you have low stunning fist DC's, turning stunning fist attacks into damage via Fists of Iron could be good. In the short term...if I was to do a monk over again from the beginning I'd probably start with stunning fist as the monk feat and improved grapple as the bonus feat. A primary use of monks is caster killing and these two feats make you a bigger threat than either alone. I'd do combat reflexes at level 3 instead of deflect arrows. I like trip better than disarm at 6. Other than that though, it depends on what you like to do with your monk.
oroborous 12-08-04, 12:49 AM	There is no such thing in LG. S.H, Naerie webslave I know that there is no "Vow of Poverty" in LG, but I do know some characters who do so as part of their character background for RP purposes only, and there are some meta-orgs that don't let their monks keep more than a certain amount of GP. I didn't mean to cause any confusion :confused: :coolcthul
SandShock 12-08-04, 08:28 PM	just need some advice on actual skills to take, i figured tumble is a must and spot search and those usual skills. Has anyone found certain skills really useful for the situations monks get into?
wagnert 12-09-04, 10:19 AM	I figure escape artist is good for monks that grapple and get grappled.
solbergb 12-10-04, 01:35 PM	Actually escape artist is better for monks who don't grapple normally. The kind with lowish strength, high dex and wisdom and stunning fist. Level 8 unbuffed grapple check for my monk is +17 (6 BAB, 6 strength, 4 imp grapple, 1 weapon focus grapple) If he had put all 11 ranks allowed into escape artist, it would only be +13 (dex is 14, no magical enhancemements). Even with the BAB hit I take from time to time as a monk, I'm better off leaving escape artist alone and putting my skill points into other things. A more dextrous monk without imp grapple but with gloves of dex instead of gaunts of ogre power could probably get to +17 escape artist while his grapple check would be down in the +8 range. Whether or not escape artist is a good buy depends a lot on how you built your monk. The Wholness of Body feat is helpful if you get in trouble during a grapple, since it lets you heal in a grapple, and of course Abundant Step at L12 is a pretty sure way to get out of an unwanted grapple.
solbergb 12-10-04, 01:45 PM	just need some advice on actual skills to take, i figured tumble is a must and spot search and those usual skills. Has anyone found certain skills really useful for the situations monks get into? Welp again it depends on the monk. Tumble is pretty much essential. Without it you can't make the best use of your mobility. Other than that there are three basic skill trees monks tend to emphasize: Mobility (making the best use of your high speed) Jump (maxed or near maxed) and 3 others that kind of "cap" - Swim, Climb, Balance. (I stopped at swim+10, climb/balance+15, which lets you climb most things, make most balance checks without slowing down and swim forever without failign the check that fatigues you on a take 10). Perception: (making use of your high wisdom, avoiding flatfootedness) Spot, Listen, Sense Motive, Diplomacy Stealth/Scouting (making use of high dex and mobility and great saves) Move Silent, Hide, Spot, Listen Escape artist is popular among non-grappling monks at least until level 12. The knowledge skills are often flavorful and sometimes useful. Perform, Craft and Profession skills are for roleplay, but they can be useful. As an example, my monk does the equivalent of "Shanghai Opera" performance from time to time- he has very high tumble and perform (drama/acting) skills and uses buffonery and comedy to tell moral tales and make people want to learn more about his order and its philosophy....this in spite of the fact that his charisma is low. He's also got a few ranks in diplomacy. He isn't the party face, but he does a decent job recruiting and overcoming the impression that a weird halforc monk makes when he first walks into the room...mostly by being willing to poke fun at himself. Unlike many of my characters I've never seen him get angry. He is a bit of a show-off though. He's kinda sucky at intimidation...enemies sometimes have trouble taking him seriously until he's got them in a crippler-crossface hold.
oroborous 12-11-04, 01:20 AM	For me it is Spot & Listen, so that I can get them before they get me. My problem is that I've got to devote a point to Knowledge: Religion, because I want to take Tatooed Monk, so the rest of my skills suffer for it. I've found a few instances where jump might have helped a little bit, but don't forget that for every 10' feet your character's speed increases that you get a bonus to jump, so don't pump a million point's into it unless you want to win the gold long jump medal in the Oerth Olympics. I already have a +10 with no ranks.
solbergb 12-13-04, 01:09 AM	Sometimes you don't have all that speed. sometimes you want a big vertical jump (those pesky flying enemies that get just a LITTLE too low heh). It's an edge case for sure but I find you either need a lot of jump or you don't need more than your speed gives you. So you know...buy it up if you like mobility, if you are focused elsewhere, leave it alone. Example of a case where Burke won a fight with his jump skill. Party is climbing out of a pit, Burke first. At top of pit we are ambushed by a druid and his animal companion. Rest of party is BAD at climbing and the only guy with fly was at the bottom, so I had to fight several rounds alone. Enemy druid cast spike stones. Burke takes one step, gets damaged, movement slowed, etc. If he stays where he is, animal companion eats him while druid rains spells down on him. He HOPPED over to the enemy druid. He had enough jump even with half movement speed and standing jumps to only take 1 spike stone damage every 3 squares or so. Then he grappled the druid, who luckily didn't have freedom of movement going (but who had also messed me up with more spells while I approached). And the best part is that animal companion tried to rescue his boss and died crossing the spike stones I'd hopped over.... and without that jump skill I wouldn't have survived the trip over to the druid either. (my best survival trick would have been to jump back into the pit and slowfall down while the party tried to fight the druid while dangling from ropes...ouch). The druid might still have won with wildshape had my companions not FINALLY started helping. Some other char would have found another solution. Mine was to use my mobility to make it the ambusher who was in trouble, not me.
Kulthos 12-17-04, 11:41 PM	If you care about things like AC, damage, and whatnot, don't play a monk. You WILL be a drain on your party and force the others to make up for your weakness.
Jesse Heinig 12-18-04, 03:17 AM	My roomie has decent luck with a multiclass fighter/monk build that wears armor at the low levels and uses a reach weapon. Per the recent clarification from WotC, even while using a reach weapon a monk threatens the squares around him, due to his unarmed attacks. With light armor (say, a chain shirt), you lose flurry of blows (which is not super at low levels), AC bonus (which the shirt will probably make up for, especially since you get to keep your Dex bonus), and fast movement (which you don't have as a low level monk anyway), but nothing else.
Kulthos 12-18-04, 10:42 AM	But a straight fighter or fighter/barbarian is still a lot better. The monk can work towards spring attack and do well with the reach and the extra movement at high levels, but they will never do worth while damage that way. Monks are OK if you have very high stats, and with 28 points you just won't be able to pull off a good monk.
King Kashue 12-20-04, 01:34 PM	If you care about things like AC, damage, and whatnot, don't play a monk. You WILL be a drain on your party and force the others to make up for your weakness. Not with a good build...You can have a half-orc monk with 18 str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, and 14 Wis with +4 to AC before the level based bonus and bracers, rings, amulets and what not...With the core availability items you can easily get an AC of 18 wearing no armor and doing d6+4 with each punch in the flurry (going to d8 at 4th)...With great saves that character will have, plus the monk feats, they're solid at lower levels and great at higher levels... E.g., At 8th level, when a fully min/maxed Half-Orc Bar/Fgt is +15/+10 with his greataxe 1d12+12, the monk above is +11/+11/+6 with his flurry, doing 1d10+5 with each hit, and has better movement & ac with way better saves... The monk is close to the Bar/Fgt, and can do more in terms of versatility...It's not a straight tank by any measure, but it's nowhere near the gimp you seem to think it is...
Kulthos 12-20-04, 02:54 PM	I want monks and duelist type chars to be good, as I really like martial arts and fencing, but the D&D rules punish meleeists for being anything other than a power-attacking two-handed weapon wielding wood-chopper. The power attack rules change for two handed weapon was a mistake, IMHO. I like GURPS for letting finesse fighters do well, but this is 3.5 D&D, not GURPS. An 8th fighter barb would likely have him or herself a frost brand or something similar, and would be at +17/+12 at the least and do 3d6+13+massive power attack. (To hit is +8 for level, +7 for str (gauntlets, rage) Weapon focus, and +1 weapon) Damage is +10 for str, +2 for ws, +1 for weap). Put on a modest power attack of four and the barb/f is hitting for over 30 a shot, and hitting pretty well. On a charge he would PA all the way, and hit for almost 40. If he has cleave, tack on an extra attack every round or two as the opponents drop. If he is hasted, you are adding another huge attack instead of a small unarmed strike. Give him magic armor and a couple simple items and his AC is great as well. Essentially, fighters and barbs hit better, do more damage, have more hit points, and have higher ACs. If the figher or barb go the two weapon rout, they get more attacks as well. (Four at level 8, not three.) If the fighter is an archer, they do more damage while 30 feet away. BTW, Monks are much happier if they can get some magical flaming or shocking weapons instead of barehand attacks. A monk with shocking nunchucks or something similar does 2d6+1+str at least, which is much better than 1d8+str.
King Kashue 12-20-04, 06:30 PM	All those buffs you mention can be used by the monk as well, so it's not an argument against the monk (as I would just adjust stats for the gauntlets or the haste, etc.)...I'm examining the pure numbers, not contingent on AR access of any kind (base stats and core access items)... First of all, power attack as big a deal as you think, since the monk using power attack get it on his extra attack, so he's looking at only .5 BAB penalty down from the tank (i.e., the tank takes -5 and gets +10, +10 for his two attacks, the monk takes -5, and get's +5,+5,+5, so you're looking at only the difference between +20 and +15)... And the more you power attack the less chance of that second attack hitting...If the above tank power attacks for 5 he's looking at +12/+7 ish, that second attack only hits AC 25, 15% of the time (and tons of enemies at APL 8 have AC25+)...All the potential damage in the world is no good if you don't hit. And if the guy get's extra attacks, we're looking at d8 for two and d6 base for two...Not 4 attacks at the massive two handed damage..... You are right about the extra stuff in a weapon, but he can only rage 1/day (maybe 2) and his AC gets crappier, whereas the monk is constant with his abilities, and his whole AC is touch as well... And the fighter in question can only do the things you're talking about if he's got the feats...lots of feats means less rage and fewer Barbarian hit dice, Ranger levels means less hit points and a restriction to light armor...In your example, you've got a fighter barbarian ranger with at least Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Two handed fighting/Improved Two handed fighting or Power Attack/Cleave... And the two handed wielding Barbarian isn't going to have good AC without nerfing his movement rate...Using light armor, to keep movement at 40 (when the monk is at 50), by 8th levelish you've got +1 Chain Shirt, +1 rop, +1 natarmor, and at best a +2 from dex (since we've min/maxed him to 22 str at 8, his best dex is 14, unless we're giving him 10 con)...AC 19 at 8th Level (only counting core access items) If you think that's great, you play some low AC guys...The monk has got +2 Dex, +2 Wis, +1 Monk, +1 BoA, +1 RoP, +1 periapt of Wis, +1 Gloves of Dex...AC 19, same as the Bar/Fgt.... I'm not trying to say that a Monk is as solid a brute as a Fgt or a Barbarian, they're not supposed to be, but they can be much better than you give them credit for, and they will have tactics open to them that a min/maxed cheese weasel tank won't.... Combats are insanely easier with tactics other than walking up and trying to whallop the bad guy...For instance, the monk example is the consumate mage-killer if he takes the grappling feats...The first round, he zips past people to the mage with his crazy ass movement and is right there to grapple...Spellcasters are useless in a grapple, and the monk has just contributed to the victory way more than just damage dealing... And finesse fighters can be effective, you just have to really work at it...My primary (7th level), who is not min/maxed by any measure, has a standing AC of 25 (And without any buffs can get it to 33) in light armor with a 40ft move and does 1d8+6 whirlwind attacking...He's not a drop the giant in one hit guy, but he can occupy a ton of folks for several rounds, and he'll spring attack that giant to death...A finesse fighter with a rapier should not do as much damage as a Tank with a greatsword...If he did, the system wouldn't be realistic...ish... :D
solbergb 12-22-04, 12:58 PM	Burke has never been called a "drag" on the party. But he doesn't worry about AC at all, and he only worries about damage dealing if he's the only party damage dealer. When he is called upon to be a damage monster he can do it. Usually with nunchuck+spikes to take advantage of his flurry capabilities, but he's strong enough that even his fists unenhanced are respectable. At level 8, +12/+12/+7 d10+6 can get the job done pretty well, but +14/+14/+9 d6+14 just does it better (spikes on nunchuck). Generally if he is the ONLY party damage dealer, the party is stuffed with mages and clerics and such, which means he gets the benefit of buffs from them, both offensive and defensive. Mostly what monks do in direct combat is set up other people...stun, flank or grapple enemies for the sneak attack from the rogue, grapple, flank, stun or trip enemies to make the BDF power attack more likely to hit, prevent AOO's via stun or grapple or disarm so party members can coordinate better or save the guy in trouble, etc. They're also pretty good at picking off weakling minions due to the large numbers of attacks (from flurry and combat reflexes) The mobility and skills and saves of a monk can also add a noncombat dimension, quite often my character is the party "Rogue" (locks with adamantium kama, obstacles with skills and strength, traps with saves+evasion) The monk is only a "drag" on the party if you play him like a barbarian. Yeah, if you only charge+punch people you're likely to be unhappy with your damage compared to power attack+2 handed weapon (although if you build the strength-oriented monk to charge, he can do quite a bit better...he can power attack with his quarterstaff, then flurry with it on the followup) I find that all monsters can hit both monks and barbarians. The breastplate doesn't really add any more to the AC of the raging barb than the wisdom+monk bonuses do. They're both light fighters. The barb can get more out of one hit damagewise. The damage/full attack is similar. The monk has the edge when doing setup maneuvers and is usually more mobile. I team with barbarians often. We make a great team, the abilities complement, they don't compete. A barb makes a poor monk, but he can simulate some of it (a bit faster than normal, some skills, can use the setup maneuvers if enemy doesn't have AOO even without the feat). A monk makes a poor barbarian, but he can simulate some of that too.
the truthseeker 12-23-04, 10:44 PM	looking for some advice so i came here =) im about to start a level 1 monk (using a dwarf should be interesting) well as with the 28 point system the stats i've ended up with are str 14 +2 dex 14 +2 wis 16 +3 con 16 +3 (racial) cha 6 -2 (racial) int 8 -1 just need some advice on actual skills to take, i figured tumble is a must and spot search and those usual skills. Has anyone found certain skills really useful for the situations monks get into? Okay, long post here, especially at the underrated jump for monks part. We'll start with the stats, skills, then the feats, then any items needed to be gone over. This is just an option, not a requirement. As much as I am initially against my first suggestion, you'll be hurting for skill points with your build. Might I suggest dropping your wisdom by one, and putting the two points it frees into int so you get the 16 not twelve initial and 4 skill points a level? While it seems nuts, it will really hurt you unless you choose very very few skills, something a monk can't do. If you're really disiplined, and speak to other monk players, maybe you can do it with the neg int mod of -1 and an int of 8. But with the non-human build, it's tricky at best with only 3 SP. The other option may consider keeping the con at 14, Int 10, going human, and making one stat (wisdom) 16. That means getting 16 sp and 5 sp per level. You see, if you ever even just go to light encumberance, let alone wear armor, you lose the Wisdom and AC per five levels bonuses. Same thing for losing your monk speed bonus if you cary a medium load or higher even unarmored. The Dwarf thing is keeping their 20 movement no matter what their encumberance. Since you should put all of your points into wisdom anyway (see later below), these are viable options, you can do. Just a thought. But if you choose not to do the first path, (and also if you choose to stay a Dwarf), I understand, and recomend you focus on Jump, Tumble and spot. In no order after that, are my skill thoughts: Tumble as you suggested, is dead on, one of the best. The monk is the support fighter compared to the tank or backstabber. Getting into position is key, thus almost always a DC 15 tumble (if not 25) is needed. Plus, you add +3 to your AC if fighting defensively, or +6 if total defensive with 5 ranks of tumble! Jump-I'd definately recommend-as dead on if not more than tumble-placing ranks into Jump. A monk gets a +4 bonus for each 10 feet above 30 feet movement they have. Since you're a dwarf with a base 20 movement, look into buying boots of striding and springing. That gives you a +10 movement enhancement to speed (+4 jump bonus) and a +5 Jump bonus (that's +9 total stackable to jump). Also, if you make a DC 15 Jump check, it lessens the falling damage by 10 feet, which does not require a running start! Add that to a DC 15 tumble check, and subtract 20 feet off of any fall! Now, remember you'll eventually also get slowfall (when next to anything that can be considered a wall [like a wall of a pit or cliff]) reduction, so assuming you set it up right, you can take tens of feet off of any fall most of the time, and help the group with those "impossible" drops! Heck, make it to a puny Level 4, and you get slow fall 20 feet! Assuming Level 4 and you start max ranks in jump and tumble with no modifiers, that's needing a +6 to succeed on Jump checks (+2 synergy bonus for 5 or more ranks in tumble, and now moving 30 feet), and +6 to succeed in tumble checks (+2 synergy bonus for 5 ranks in jump). Your suggested character would add +2 to tumble checks and jump checks, making +4 on jump checks, and +4 on Tumble checks. Get those boots and the jump checks become a "don't roll a 1"! Take 10, and you'll always succeed in dropping 40 feet with no damage! Now, if you'd gotten the boots of striding and springing, add +9 to your jump! And in the off chance you roll a 1, that's what the "Let's try that again" player reward card is for! You'd need to put a few more ranks to do this-being ten feet slower than most human monks-but let me show what you can acheive with a human monk, just 9 ranks in jump, those boots, and a 16 STR: My Monk at level 10 has a +35 bonus to jump, and loves when those enemies (knowing there's no fly option in our party) try hovering above me and taunting me; especially when the're weak spellcasters and my stunning fist will stop them cold (on the times I just don't want to give them a big grappling hug first). That's the first and last mistake chaotic creatures do. Now, it's more difficult if you don't have a running start of 20 feet, but being able to go about 18 feet long jumping further, (4.25 feet vertical apex) minimum long jump (not the lesser going straight up or a high jump) is pretty amazing. That would be a minimum of 36 feet (9 feet vertical apex) if my modifier were only +1 with a running jump! From this, if I roll anything that gives me an additional +5 to my jump, I can reach those taunting beings at least 10 feet up at the apex vertically :D Let the hugging and shaking hands begin! If he long jumped and took or got twenty, it would be 27.5 feet (6.875 vertical apex) without a running start, 55 (13 feet 9 inches)with. That would mean a vertical apex jump of 14 feet with 1 more rank or junp +36 if you have a monk with boots of striding and springing. Now, you'll ONLY have your full monk movement in feet to set this up almost all of the time. So, I guarantee most of the time, you can plan your jumps for this "apex", even as a dwarf. As long as you don't use all your movement, that's 1 standard action to "have fun" with your goal! Spot is key. As you go up there in APL, expect some spot checks DC to be MINIMUM 40. This may even be surprise rounds. Look into possibly getting eyes of the eagle. You can always use a +5 to spot checks. I'll get into this later, but first, get a periphat of Wisdom as high as you can. It will help many of your monk skills checks, and your AC, AND your will saves, AND the DC to your stunning fists. Listen (assuming you have the skill points left for it) is pretty good for invisible opponents or when opponents made sure all visual clues will be squelched. Try for a +10 minimum or higher to listen checks. The higher the better. I found out hide and move silently are best left up to the player. If you're sneaky OK, if you're playing Mr. damage, put them in other skills. Balance is good, but not as often used as you think. Think ships at sea in a storm, or a grease spell. Sense Motive while very useful, other characters who probably specialize in it. Use them or not, but consider them a tertiary skil (after primary and secondary choices) Forget concentration. If this wasn't a family read board, the word would not be forget! Craft and profession are almost useless unless on the rare off chance you are a cartographer and it relates to an old map. Maybe it can be used for role-playing, but don't worry abouyt it to survive as a monk in LG. You have many other skills to use to survive, and will need many of those points! Diplomacy is a personal decision, but with your cha, skip it I concur with what others said about escape artist. When I was too weak to matter, it was an equalizer. Now, just use your bab and strength. Gauntlets of ogre power will make up the rest Finally, there are the knowledge skills. Use only as opportunity dictates in a role-playing or campaign purpose. I'd hold out for the book that needs draconic if your character isn't the scholarly or kolbold speaking kind. Still with me? Let's go over feats: Bonus feats: Take stunning fist, combat reflexes, and improved trip. It's easy to get improved grapple, and the maybe immediate attack at the same BAB is better than the maybe they drop the weapon. Even though deflect arrows saved my life, it's not as good as the combat reflexes requirements for many feats. All feats assume you can get access to them. First purchase feat I'd consider is dodge. You can always choose one enemy and get a+1 "dodge buddy" dodge bonus. You could use the +1 now when starting, and it will work well with your other dwarven bonuses, them stacking or backing you up even if hit. (Since you are probally playing a dwarf, I'll try to abstain from "must have" feats, knowing you have one less feat than humanfolk.) The next one I'd suggest is in either order or even either/or. One of them is mobility, giving a +4 when you fail the tumble check, or make sure the monsters have or don't have combat expertise for the weaker players. The other option is Improved grapple. It's a viable option to stop those spellcasters. At sixth level, you can choose spring attack if you chose mobility. Sometimes you have to get in and leave. Sometimes, the spellcaster doesn't want you in their Evard's black tentacles area. Trust me, it's handy. But if it's too costly and you didn't go human for the feat or just didn't choose mobility the ring of blinking is an option. (Enemies miss you 50% of the time while you may miss them only 20% of the time going ethereal. If they can see ethereal or invisible then it goes down to 20%, and no chance to miss if they can see both. Targeted spells miss you 50% of the time period. Area effect spells are halved before you even consider any evasion or improved evasion.) Assuming you didn't or don't, I'd recommend then either fists of iron (note using it before an attack, adds 1d6 to any unarmed attack if hit, counts against daily stunning fists hits or not) or close quarters fighting (auto AoO no matter what starts the grapple, and failed grapple if hit or add damage to grapple check if it's one of those "special" grapple attacks). For monks, Fists of Iron need a BAB of +2 and stunning fists. Everybody else needs improved unarmed attack and to qualify for stunning fist, let alone the simple +2 BAB. Close quarters fighting is +3 BAB. Pretty much, at ninth level, I'd recommend one of the abovementioned feats you haven't gotten. If you do go human, I'd recommend going the spring attack route, with improved grapple, and fists of iron. Other feats you can consider are: weapon focus, karmic strike ( on your action -4 to AC and make an AoO to ANY melee or touch melee in your threatened area), improved initiative, hold the line (immediate AoO for any charging opponent in your threatening area before they can attack), Weakening touch (Declare before you roll. if you hit, instead of stunning fist or damage , auto -6 to strength non cumalitive no save or SR for one minute; counts as a stunning attack for the day) power attack (a very tempting one at any time you can get it, but too costly when you are not fighting two handed weapons), or pain touch (not a big fan of this one as if the stunning fists save succeeds this nauseated effect for one round doesn't happen). Requirements for above listed feats not in the PH: Karmic Strike requires Dex 13, combat expertise and Dodge. Hold the line requires a BAB of +2 and combat reflexes. Weakening touch has the same requirments as Fists of Iron, plus Wis 17. Pain Touch needs Wis 15, Stunning Fist and a BAB of +2. Items: As mentioned, get potions. Besides the healing, the mage armor (at 50g a pop cheap) is a good buy for +4 armor for a min of 1 hour. Alsy buy Owl's wisdom, cat's grace and Bull's strength potions. Your primary permanent item goal is a periphat of Wisdom. The higher the better. The +6 version adds +3 to your AC, your will saves, AND your stunning fists DC. Plus, a lot of important skills for monk are wisdom based. Same for many monk feats you may have access to. Eventually, you can choose to "update" items like these in AR's so buy the one you can, and update it when you can. Your next must get when you can access and afford it item is a belt. I'd recommend the Monk's belt, as it gives you the Monk AC and damage of a monk 5 levels higher, plus adds 1 more stunning fist per day if you have the feat. The other belt option is the Belt of Giant Strength. This gives you a +4 or +6 to strength. Considering the value and rarity, I'd go for the Monk's belt. The Giant Strength is a good one, and the belt of health is an OK substitution if you have to have con bonus and have no neck slot free. Considering the 1.5 creation market price, save it for last place. The realistic secondary item to get is the ring of protection or bracers of armor. What I mentioned before then go here (the boots of striding and springing, eyes of the eagle). Or instead, you could consider the gauntlets of ogre power or dexterity. The're not as important as that periphat or belt or boots though. Here you can consider amulets of natual armor or mighty fists or health. Your call if your neck isn't being used or you wish to switch out. Not in the highest of need (last) is the cloak or vest of resistance or any cloak/vest you can get. Considering your ST, this is not a priority. See if you have extra (HAH) money for this when you qualify at your APL. As for stat points, put as many into wisdom as you can. It helps your AC, DC for enemy's saves, ST, and skills. Str or Dex are secondary options, and con never hurt. I hope this helps. I've been playing monks in LG for almost 5 years now. Josh
Kulthos 12-24-04, 12:21 AM	The monk is only a "drag" on the party if you play him like a barbarian. Yeah, if you only charge+punch people you're likely to be unhappy with your damage compared to power attack+2 handed weapon (although if you build the strength-oriented monk to charge, he can do quite a bit better...he can power attack with his quarterstaff, then flurry with it on the followup) It does look possible to make a good monk build and play them effectively if you are extremely careful about the build and are an experienced player. What I have run in to, so far, are people with bad builds and who play them badly. My Barbarian/Cleric(Kord) has had horrible times tanking and taking up the damage and healing slack when stuck with monks and bards. Perhaps at winter fantasy I will run into a good Monk and will learn the errors of my ways, but I am still waiting to meet that monk :-)
the truthseeker 12-24-04, 05:10 AM	It does look possible to make a good monk build and play them effectively if you are extremely careful about the build and are an experienced player. What I have run in to, so far, are people with bad builds and who play them badly. My Barbarian/Cleric(Kord) has had horrible times tanking and taking up the damage and healing slack when stuck with monks and bards. Perhaps at winter fantasy I will run into a good Monk and will learn the errors of my ways, but I am still waiting to meet that monk :-) I hear you on that. Next time though, offer some of those enhancement spells like Bulls Strength, or especially Owl's wisdom. See my prior post why wisdom buff is a good thing. If you buff the monk, then they can go play like a fighter. Where I play, clerics are a premium, and they are responsible for the healing AND buffs if no arcanist is around! And a cleric of Kord should have strength domain more often than not, with an extra bull's strength.... But if the monks still stink, blame the players for not knowing how to play one! But, I'm going to withhold comment on bards. For some reason, I almost never see bards in my Nyrond region of the woods, or my plane-hopping a couple times a year for cons (like WF). There were times I couldn't hold on my own damagewise. My build only has a base 10 con, and improved toughness. Even when you play well, without the magic, you have to play cautiously to survive. Until I hit 11'th level, cloudkill makes me very cautious. Fortunately, I'm about one module away from 11'th level monk at the time of this posting (which confers immunity to all poisions, of which cloudkill is). I know my role is SUPPORT fighter. I warm people of this. If they wish me to be a tank, then the'd better buff me, or not complain if there's no dedicated tank. I play with people I know when I have a choice. Polymorph me into an annis hag, and the last thing you hear the opposition say is, "oh no..." Even with my reduction in dex, the size increase, and massive to hit bonus, coupled with the +10 natural armor and my flury...it's not pretty on the other end. (There's something very...satisfying about killing a villian in a series that got away before, that watches in horror as you take down her big bad in two blows, then go after her with the same menacing look her thug had on their face. :devil: ) I think Dirty Harry said it best, "A man's got to know his limitations." We're not swing, drop, and heatsink. We're hit them many times, and each does notable damage, now two, three or maybe four times. Like those impossible monsters you face. Now when you want a character that can get out of the way of a fireball, or "distract" the enemy with that nice touch attack AC, that's us monks. Heck, I have an AC 24 (25 dodge for a single opponent) and that's pretty much my touch AC. THAT'S what the monk is for. When I faced a certain spawn of Tharzarian, and was able to hit it fighting defensively, and all 6 of its attacks with ungodly to hits instant improved grapple missed me, that's what the monk was for! (And you know that was only the warmup if you know the module.) Know what you can do with your build, plan for the future, and darnit, PLAY the lawful part of the monks, and MENTION what needs to be organized for the party to be a success. That's the secret to long life. Funny, but monks aren't even my first class choice--that would be wizards. I'm about to tie my highest level in a living campaign (11'th, and my once LC wizard character died because he thought he could survive high level planar), so it's an...interesting journey so far. Hope to see some of you lurkers and posters in WF. If I semi-retired him, and you have a balanced table and APL 10, and ask really nicely, maybe Evenflow will come out to play ;) Josh
SgtHulka 12-31-04, 11:08 AM	What do you guys think about a human Monk that starts with a Cha 11 and with one level of Sorceror before multi-classing into Monk? Maybe stats like: Str 14 Dex 14 Con 13 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 11 Doing such would gain simple weapon proficiency, providing the Monk with a long spear so it can threaten both reach squares and adjacent squares (reach with the spear, adjacent with unarmed attacks). The monk would also gain Mage Armor for defense and magic missile for ranged attacks, and if it took practiced spellcaster then at fifth level (Sorc 1/Monk 4) each Mage Armor would last 5 hours and magic missile would do 6-15 points of damage. Or, maybe go with True Strike instead of Magic Missile, but then you don't gain as much from Practiced Spellcaster. Seems like those bonuses might actually be worth the -1 Monk level you incur. Is something wrong with my theory?
Sieylianna 12-31-04, 02:03 PM	Doing such would gain simple weapon proficiency, providing the Monk with a long spear so it can threaten both reach squares and adjacent squares (reach with the spear, adjacent with unarmed attacks). The monk would also gain Mage Armor for defense and magic missile for ranged attacks, and if it took practiced spellcaster then at fifth level (Sorc 1/Monk 4) each Mage Armor would last 5 hours and magic missile would do 6-15 points of damage. Or, maybe go with True Strike instead of Magic Missile, but then you don't gain as much from Practiced Spellcaster. Seems like those bonuses might actually be worth the -1 Monk level you incur. Is something wrong with my theory? You're giving up a monk level and spending a feat in order to do it. If you want mage armor, buy a couple of 1st level pearls of power (1,000 GP each) and ask the party mage to cast it on you. Magic MIssiles are easily blocked by the shield spell. Unless you want to go for Dragon Disciple, I don't think this is a good idea. Ed
Kulthos 01-01-05, 04:22 AM	Make a wood elf monk. They get +2 to str and dex. You can get Str 18 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 6 Wis 14 Chr 6 You can drop the Str to 16 and get the wis to 16 as well. Someone will have to lead you around on a leash, but you will hit reasonably hard.
solbergb 01-03-05, 03:33 PM	Some good advice in the last few posts. One thing I'll comment on. You have limited cash for items. It is better to make something good better than something bad medeocre. Burke spends his cash on offense, saving throws and mobility. He spends zip, zero on armor class. If you spend on armor class, it ain't cheap and will eat into two of the other categories. (note the advice above not to get cloak/vest resistance, which is the opposite of what I did...my monk gets targeted a LOT with spells because of his mobility and caster-harassing ability, but that same mobility and ability to interfere with the attacks of others means I continue to get away with a 13 AC into the mid levels) For most monks, stunning fist oriented, yeah, the Wis item is key. It adds to will saves, stunning fist offense and armor class, three very important areas. (my monk ignored these areas to focus on strength, damage and mobility...but I'm weird. My will saves are a bit behind those of most monks, but Still Mind and vest of resistance helps some) If you trip and grapple, you need a belt of strength a lot more than a monk's belt, but you won't see either until level 10 or so because you won't have the cash. If you dump armor class, you need a higher constitution and to try to fit in a con-boosting item (or perhaps improved toughness). Note that spending on armor class may mean you get more flurries off, since you can afford to stand and hit. I am not a big fan of the spring attack path for monks, since you just don't have 3 feats to spare to get one stunning fist off per round in safety. I am aware that others disagree, but I think the opportunity cost is too high. If you time your attacks and tumble, you can generally get your licks in AND stay out of full attack range AND get some use out of combat reflexes. You have to know when to bail out though. You can't just stand there and duke it out like a barbarian if you're getting mauled. I do agree with the above posters that a Monk is not an easy character for a player who is not experienced, especially in the area of tactical positioning and teamwork. Skirmishers tend to be a tricky category to play well in most games, and D&D is no exception. Bards have similar issues. You're a setup artist, a skill monkey and in addition to that you should have at least one magical thing you can do reliably and well to help out in combat. Some go for buffing the party (bardsong then haste then rage is pretty brutal to face if you have any hitters), some for enchantment or illusion etc. Most are secondary healers. Again you need a feel for the party, but a well built bard can generally do useful things just by casting spells and singing every fight. What is important for a good bard player is a feel for how to best help the party every round...your positioning and survival skills as a player are less important than your understanding of the force multiplication effects of the party buffs or the importance of removing an enemy from a fight via save or XXX or something like a well timed Silence spell. Neither class lends itself to straightforward play. You have to constantly think "I have these weird abilities, how can I use them to help my party dominate this battle" and you have to pay attention to the ebb and flow very closely.
solbergb 01-03-05, 03:42 PM	What do you guys think about a human Monk that starts with a Cha 11 and with one level of Sorceror before multi-classing into Monk? Maybe stats like: Pros: Mage armor on tap. Second spell shouldn't be magic missile though, you're far better off with something like Truestrike to enhance your disarm or shield to further boost AC. Proficient but unexciting reach weapon (Longspear). If you choose the right familiar, can boost 2 saves (will and reflex or fortitude) and you get alertness. Cons: Even more attribute dilution than monks already suffer. This is a big deal, actually, you're spending 3-4 attribute points that could be better spent on wis, str, con, dex. Loss of BAB is also very serious on a 3/4 bab fighter. No skill synergy in the classes. Multiclass restrictions mean you also cost yourself a big chunk of skills and a couple hp because you have to start sorcerer. If you like this idea, the only real approach I think works well is the Dragon Disciple approach, where you start out a monk for 6 levels (getting improved grapple and improved trip on the way) and then take a level of sorc, then Dragon Disciple...using the strength boosts of DD to make up for the hideous hit to BAB that you take going this route. Grapple and Trip are highly strength dependent, and the sorc spells+familiar are mildly useful.
Kulthos 01-04-05, 01:23 AM	I think monks do well in many types of home games, but are situational in LG. If there were laws against walking down the street covered in spikey armor and oversized weapons, monks would clearly have the advantage. In LG, nobody seems to care if we walk into mental asylums carrying tons of weapons, large and small. My home-game rogue is 1,000 times more fun at home than he would be in an LG adventure as well. The funny thing is that fighters who bother to take the improved grapple feat are better wrestlers than monks, as fighters are usually stronger and always have a higher BAB. The reason fighter DON'T usually take IG is that the other feats are more useful.
Auke 01-04-05, 04:44 AM	Are there any nice Monk metaorgs anywhere? Still looking for one for my LG monk... By the way... If you want to combine a monk with spellcasting cleric is the way to go (your wisdom needs to be high). You can take magic domain if you want to be able to cast mage armour, alter self(troglodyte for example) and shield from scroll. Or take wardomain of a god with unarmed strike as a favorite weapon for free focus.
solbergb 01-04-05, 02:22 PM	The Disciples of Discipline in the Pale are a decent org, although you'll have to put up with a lot of Pholtan teachings and you'll have to join the Church of The One True Path to get the favors to advance in it unless you have a couple already (as there is currently no other mechanism to get Favors of Pholtus and most modern Pale adventures don't give them out) The Disciples stress acrobatics and the One True Path of Discipline (which will lead you to Pholtus, but you don't have to start there). They're agnostic with respect to race (even trained a Lawful Troll once) and are a very martial order...you are expected to go out and kick butt against the forces of Chaos. With respect to benefits...it's all item access, which means if you join for other than roleplay reasons you need to play Pale regional or Nyrond Metaregional mods to benefit. They do not need you to be in the Pale to join as an Initiate, but the Church requires Nyrond Metaregion residence, so don't expect to be a Brother or Master someday without being a local resident.
solbergb 01-04-05, 02:26 PM	The funny thing is that fighters who bother to take the improved grapple feat are better wrestlers than monks, as fighters are usually stronger and always have a higher BAB. The reason fighter DON'T usually take IG is that the other feats are more useful. Damage from enchanted armor spikes is also fairly comparable to the monk unarmed strike. Fighters make pretty good grapplers. For a fighter though...it takes two feats to get it (imp unarmed strike is a requirement). I think though the lack of mobility of your typical tank is a bigger barrier even than the feats (with Barbarian...it is the feats). A lot of what grapple is good for is grabbing the guy on the field who is EASY to grapple but is dangerous some other way (usually but not always spellcasting). Getting to that guy is often difficult when you are in fullplate with no jump/balance/tumble skill to speak of, versus your average turbocharged Monk with plenty of skillpoints to get past obstacles. Monks are "good enough" at grappling to use it as a stopper versus anything medium sized or smaller, and a good proportion of size large critters of APL appropriate size. Size huge, even with Enlarge, is where the lower BAB starts to hurt. Clerics with divine power and righteous might are pretty fearsome grapplers too, but it is rare that they can spare the feats or the buff time to get all of that off.