| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| haferka04-10-06, 09:44 AM | http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b The Marshal minor aura "Motivate Dexterity" is BROKEN... I have 2 characters, both with Motivate Dex, Almost every marshal takes this aura at 1st level... and sticks with it... It REALLY puts the party ahead of the game, since it almost guarantees that the whole group beats the enemies on Initiative. Comparing it to the other "Motivate <STAT>" auras, Motivate Dex is the only one that modifies a roll beyond a simple skill or ability check. The designers for some reason equated an Inititive check with a simple Dex check, which it is definitly NOT. Solutions: 1> Rule that Motivate Dexterity does NOT modify Initiative checks... 2> Break Motivate Dexterity into a Minor & Major aura. The minor would function as solution #1, and the major would grant a bonus to Initiative. 3> Initiative boost apply AFTER the first round of combat. In either case, grant the Marshal the option to change his auras that were chosen. That way they can choose if the Initiative boost is really worth a Major aura slot. If you look at MOST marshal characters, you will notice that they only have 1 level of Marshal and they did it for Motivate Dexterity. It is game breaking at later levels... when the party wins initiative... they decimate the enemies. Personally, I would love to see more of the other auras, and with so many lvl 1 Marshals out there, this would get them to choose another aura which is much more interesting. The other beef I have with Motivate Dexterity... Move Silently... that just doesnt make any sense.. I'm gona talk talk talk... and my Move Silent check gets better? |
| amnuxoll04-10-06, 10:00 AM | Personally I think the "Grant Move Action" is the real killer ability at high APLs. The Marshal class just hasn't been available long enough to see that yet. With that ability, you're effectively guaranteeing a full attack action to your fighters in round 1. Marshal is a pretty weak class anyway, that motivate Dex is the best ability doesn't make it broken. A barbarian's signature ability is Rage. Lots of PCs have one level of Barbarian just so they can rage. Worse, they throw in Extra Rage to get the ability 3x/day. Does that make barbarian broken? *shrug* It makes it powerful, imho, but not broken. :AMN: |
| haferka04-10-06, 10:29 AM | ======================================== =============== I am just wanting the Circle to take a close look at this 1 ability (Motivate Dexterity)... Anything else I write is just to defend my possition, so If I say "limit that 2 .. etc..." take it with a grain of salt.. ======================================== =============== I would have to agree that "Extra Rage" is VERY powerfull, especially in LG. Personally, I would have no problem with putting this feat on the Limited list. As it is.. it encourages multiclass madness, just like the AWSOME "Motivate Dex" aura of a marshal.. The grant Move action of Marshal is definitly very powerfull... But most people fail to progress to 4th level in the class. I have another solution for Grant moves action... but I wouldn't want to implement it untill it becomes a problem... Limit it to a # allies (based on their major aura bonus)... which would be a max of 5 people at 20th level... |
| kjenks04-10-06, 11:01 AM | Comparing it to the other "Motivate <STAT>" auras, Motivate Dex is the only one that modifies a roll beyond a simple skill or ability check. The designers for some reason equated an Inititive check with a simple Dex check, which it is definitly NOT. SRD === INITIATIVE Initiative Checks: At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. === |
| Mommy was an Orc04-10-06, 01:08 PM | If you look at MOST marshal characters, you will notice that they only have 1 level of Marshal and they did it for Motivate Dexterity. It is game breaking at later levels... when the party wins initiative... they decimate the enemies. Personally, I would love to see more of the other auras, and with so many lvl 1 Marshals out there, this would get them to choose another aura which is much more interesting. One thing to remember is that bonuses are not bonuses if you contradict them. As an example, you can't be moving silently while talking. Sure, you might be adding +5 to the check, but simply by talking you're putting the DC down to 0 regardless of what your Move Silently is. Ditto for Initiative. Sounds powerful and is in many circumstances. But if you're in an encounter where surprise could happen but is not certain on either side, you just gave the enemy little shot of being surprised and a better chance of surprising you. When I have players of Marshals of Motivate Dex, I simply ask them at random times are they talking, usually at moments when it seems like an encounter could happen, and maybe roll a die or two. Puts some fear into them. Marshal is a pretty weak class anyway, that motivate Dex is the best ability doesn't make it broken. I wouldn't call 'em weak. They might appear so, but they're one of the more powerful classes out there, particularly with skill monkey builds. The ability to take 7 levels of Marshal and put it into a Rogue build can often make an extraordinarily skilled character - imagine adding +6-7 to all skill checks you make when you have 18 or so skills, for which you sacrificed some sneak damage and 28 skill points total. And it isn't just to your checks, but to whoever happens to be around you. I also like Marshal for Tripmaster Skilled Tank builds - they get to stack both strength and charisma for trip attacks and Motivate Strength works for Trips, Bullrush, and Overruns - giving a lot of synergy with Shock Trooper. As well as Climb, Jump, and Swim(if they can hear you) checks. |
| paigeoliver04-10-06, 01:21 PM | The marshalls don't actually have to be talking to give off their aura, they just must be there and able to communicate. It isn't like a Bard. "Activating an aura involves haranguing, ordering, directing, encouraging, cajoling, or calming allies." The Marshall ACTIVATES that dex aura back at camp before the day even begins. And Marshall really isn't any more "###BROKEN###" than any other character class out there. A lot of people dip marshall, as they do barbarian, rogue, bard, or any other class that has an ability that they want. It is not the end all, be all perfect class. That requisite high charisma is a big trade off for anyone but bards and sorcerors, while bards and sorcerors are going to lose caster levels. |
| PaulH04-10-06, 01:54 PM | Hi Aaahhh - just noticed other abilities of Marshall, Marshall 2/Warmage etc, Cha 16 Minor - Motivate Dex, Major Motivate Ardor +3 to hit with Ranged Touch +1 Damage to Wpn Like Spells! (But I think best just Marshall1/Warmage rest, with Know Religion 4 ranks, you take Arcane Disciple at 3rd lvl)) Cheers Paul H |
| Arvagor04-10-06, 02:23 PM | Marshall 2/Warmage etc, Cha 16 Minor - Motivate Dex, Major Motivate Ardor +3 to hit with Ranged Touch +1 Damage to Wpn Like Spells! I don't think this is correct, is it? Motivate Dex/etc. auras only apply to ability checks and skill checks, not to attack rolls... |
| Mommy was an Orc04-10-06, 02:36 PM | The marshalls don't actually have to be talking to give off their aura, they just must be there and able to communicate. It isn't like a Bard. You might want to reread the class. Your aura affects allies within 60 feet that can hear you. i.e. if you are just there and able to communicate, but not actually talking, your allies can't hear or understand you. So no bonus. Remember, this isn't a character class who necessarily goes dungeon spelunking so much as it is a battlefield commander. Unless otherwise noted, a marshal's aura affects all allies within 60 feet (including himself) who can hear the marshal. An ally must have an Intelligence score of 3 or higher and be able to understand the marshal's language to gain the bonus. A marshal's aura is dismissed if he is dazed, unconscious, stunned, paralyzed, or otherwise unable to be heard or understood by his allies |
| PaulH04-10-06, 02:50 PM | I don't think this is correct, is it? Motivate Dex/etc. auras only apply to ability checks and skill checks, not to attack rolls... Hi Actually, different Major Auras can grant bonuses to attack, or damage or something else entirely. Surely someone doesn't have to stand motionless to direct/command? A commander could shout an order, fire a weapon, then redirect an attack, motivate his/troops in real life. Done it in real life - what's the difference here? The Aura is continuous as long as the Marshall is capble of having his/her allies hear. (Ie, not in silence spell, when paralised, unconcious/asleep etc). It even affects himself. So yes - I should be able to motivate the troops, highlight the target by casting a spell, motivate some more, heal an injured ally, etc. It might be a judgement call the round I'm casting spells, but the important thing is to keep the flow going. As to Iniative, unless the Marshall is continuing to speak all the time, I would allow the Marshall to inspire their allies (Dex) after a surprise round, when Initiative is decalared, otherwise the enemy would here them coming...... Cheers Paul H |
| paigeoliver04-10-06, 03:26 PM | Yes, I know the Marshall class very well. And I know the auras go away if the Marshall is unable to speak, but that does not mean that he IS continually speaking. Motivating move silently for anyone other than the actual Marshall is pretty unlikely to happen anyway, even without the whole talking bit. But say a Marshall and a rogue want to sneak down a corridor. The marshall explains sneaking tactics to the rogue before they begin, thus "activating" the aura. The marshall and the rogue go sneaky, sneaky. As long as they are sneaking good and the situation doesn't change then there is no reason for the Marshall to have to speak again. So if Marshall and the Rogue wanted to sneak down a corridor and nothing happens in the corridor other than the sneakiness, then I would have no problem as a GM allowing them to do it silently. But, if said Marshall and rogue encountered a locked door, or a trap, or any other situation other than "move silently" then the Marshall would have to open his big mouth in order to apply the aura to it. That is always how I saw it working. I always roleplay this aspect of both my Marshalls. Giving lots of direction both in and out of combat. One presents himself as a Mercenary Captain with whoever the current table is as his mercenaries. While the other (a single level Marshall), only presents herself as being good at charging things, thus only talks about nice ways to maximize your movement energy into your attack. Yes, the dex aura IS the most powerful aura, AND it is available at 1st level. But to get any POWERFUL effect out of it you have to be a DEDICATED Marshall (18+ charisma), who spent almost all their ability points on Charisma. Or you can be sorceror and stick yourself TWO levels behind the wizards in spell acquisition instead of just one. A lot of people just dip Marshall, but it is really a great class to take all the way up, or actually to take 14 levels in Marshall and one level in another class. Just because of the 15th level max of LG and the fact that Marshall 15 isn't a very good level. |
| paigeoliver04-10-06, 03:37 PM | Motivate Dex does not add to attack rolls or savings throws. Just to dex skills and dex checks (including initiative). Some of the major Marshall auras will add to attack rolls, but none of the Minor Marshall auras provide any attack roll bonus to any normal attack (just odd stuff like disarm, or confirming crits). Hi Aaahhh - just noticed other abilities of Marshall, Marshall 2/Warmage etc, Cha 16 Minor - Motivate Dex, Major Motivate Ardor +3 to hit with Ranged Touch +1 Damage to Wpn Like Spells! (But I think best just Marshall1/Warmage rest, with Know Religion 4 ranks, you take Arcane Disciple at 3rd lvl)) Cheers Paul H |
| Mommy was an Orc04-10-06, 04:13 PM | But say a Marshall and a rogue want to sneak down a corridor. The marshall explains sneaking tactics to the rogue before they begin, thus "activating" the aura. The marshall and the rogue go sneaky, sneaky. As long as they are sneaking good and the situation doesn't change then there is no reason for the Marshall to have to speak again. Except the rules... The test for whether or not the aura works on your ally is the following 4 steps: Is the ally within 60'? Can the ally hear you? Does the ally understand the language you're using? Does the ally have a 3 Intelligence? If any of those are no, then the aura has no effect - those are the rules, it doesn't make exceptions for when it might make sense for the skill - swimming to the bottom of a pool to grab a sword at the bottom of the lake might make a ton of sense for Motivate Strength. It just doesn't work, though because the ally can no longer hear you. It doesn't mean you have to say the full-fledged opening speech again or talk loudly - it just means you need to be saying something that the ally can understand. |
| PaulH04-10-06, 04:15 PM | Hi Stand correct re dex mod to attack rolls. Completely agree with paigeoliver - but Marshall/Warmage still good mix - especially since Knowlege (Religion this case) are class skills for Marshall. Hmm. Dex 14, Cha 16, Improved Initiative. Initiative +9 anyone? Cheers Paul H |
| paigeoliver04-10-06, 05:03 PM | Its a tricky one, since it is only says that they must be able to hear and understand the marshall, it never actually says he has to say anything. But, in all my playing with Marshalls I have never seen anyone even attempt to use a Marshall aura in one of those "no talky" situations anyway, I don't believe it to be a real issue. Btw, I agree with you that an underwater ally would be unable to hear you thus not able to take advantage of your aura. |
| haferka04-10-06, 06:27 PM | A marshal with 1 level of Mindbender.. negates the need to "talk" verbally. They talk directly into your head. At least that is the plan for mine... Mar 2/Dru 3/Beast Master 1/Brd 1/Earth Dreamer 4/MindBender 1/Arcane Heirophant 4 Depending on how the character plays out.. I may or may not take the 1 level of Mindbender... It might be replaced with another level of Arcane Heirophant.. or a level of Barbarian... it just depends on the mods he plays... If it makes sense I will go one way or the other... |
| Mommy was an Orc04-10-06, 07:23 PM | But, in all my playing with Marshalls I have never seen anyone even attempt to use a Marshall aura in one of those "no talky" situations anyway, I don't believe it to be a real issue. Btw, I agree with you that an underwater ally would be unable to hear you thus not able to take advantage of your aura. But if they start above the water when you motivate them and then dive into the water, how is that any different from the stealthy situation? The area where it is a real issue is when you're in a situation where surprise is not predetermined, but is dependent on spot/listen/move silently/hide checks. And that potentially should happen in every encounter to determine surprise. It is not a good thing to ensure that you will usually go first if you provoke a surprise round by letting the enemy know you're there. |
| solbergb04-10-06, 08:13 PM | Yeah, some things look better than they are, because only the Judge knows that the surprise round was CAUSED by the motivate XXX or the bardsong running 24x7. Of course if your marshall is full plate+tower shield with a neg 10 move silent check, it doesn't really matter, you can blab away without really making any more noise... |
| paigeoliver04-10-06, 08:24 PM | It is easily quite different. While sneaking the Marshall has the ability to communicate with his buddy at any time. Opening his mouth to do so would of course blow his move silently roll, but he COULD speak. In the case of the guy diving under the water he simply has no way to hear whatever the Marshall may or may not say. Having no way to hear the Marshall he cannot take advantage of the aura, as clearly stated in the class description. Marshalls can walk around with an aura active all the time, but that does not mean they are continually speaking. The class description doesn't say that, and for some of the auras it would be absolutely absurd. Like the charisma aura. What I get out of the reading is what it says, activating the aura requires speech. Which means no silently swapping out auras. But maintaining the aura simply requires the Marshall to be present, and for his allies to be able to hear anything he might have to say. But as I said before, I consider it a non-issue. I have like 50 or 60 living greyhawk ARs, and I live in Dyvers, the rogue capital of LG, and I have never seen anyone actually attempt to move silently. Much less try to do it with a Marshall boost on it. But if they start above the water when you motivate them and then dive into the water, how is that any different from the stealthy situation? The area where it is a real issue is when you're in a situation where surprise is not predetermined, but is dependent on spot/listen/move silently/hide checks. And that potentially should happen in every encounter to determine surprise. It is not a good thing to ensure that you will usually go first if you provoke a surprise round by letting the enemy know you're there. |
| paigeoliver04-10-06, 08:26 PM | Exactly, and even if the Marshall himself isn't wearing full plate (both mine are), then one of his buddies will be. :D Yeah, some things look better than they are, because only the Judge knows that the surprise round was CAUSED by the motivate XXX or the bardsong running 24x7. Of course if your marshall is full plate+tower shield with a neg 10 move silent check, it doesn't really matter, you can blab away without really making any more noise... |
| King Kashue04-10-06, 10:12 PM | A marshal with 1 level of Mindbender.. negates the need to "talk" verbally. They talk directly into your head. At least that is the plan for mine... Mar 2/Dru 3/Beast Master 1/Brd 1/Earth Dreamer 4/MindBender 1/Arcane Heirophant 4 Depending on how the character plays out.. I may or may not take the 1 level of Mindbender... It might be replaced with another level of Arcane Heirophant.. or a level of Barbarian... it just depends on the mods he plays... If it makes sense I will go one way or the other... You do need access to mindbender however... As for the text "Activating an aura involves haranguing, ordering, directing, encouraging, cajoling, or calming allies." All of those can be done non-verbally...While it's a bit of a disconnect between rules and reality to say "you need to be able to hear" but not "the marshall needs to talk", but D&D doesn't need to be externally logical, just internally logical (insert example of "how does magic work in real life, and should we adjust the rules to make it more "realistic"?) An example of how dex aura can apply to initative but not negate suprise...Marshall explains "when moving in this formation, this is how we march, you look this way, you look this way, if ambushed do this and then this..." And any further signals can be given through hand signals...Think of an officer directing a squad in the army, tons of communication and orders, zero speaking... |
| Iswald04-10-06, 11:01 PM | An example of how dex aura can apply to initative but not negate suprise...Marshall explains "when moving in this formation, this is how we march, you look this way, you look this way, if ambushed do this and then this..." And any further signals can be given through hand signals...Think of an officer directing a squad in the army, tons of communication and orders, zero speaking... ...and much practice. Now you're going into teamwork bonus terrain (HB and PHBII). |
| Madfox1104-11-06, 03:24 AM | You do realize water carries sound better then air? And that spellcasters can cast spells underwater? The only time they cannot is when casting a spell with the fire descriptor - and even then a Spellcraft check makes it possible. Note that few DMs allow the aura to work when speaking is impossible - then again, I met few players who even thought speech was unnecessary. Why is there even a need to be heard if you can communicate through silent methods? Note that one of the strangest things is IMO the fact that the marshal immediately grants the full charisma bonus on the checks, while all other classes and prestige classes since 3.5 grant up to a maximum of the class level. Such a rule would certainly abuse the single level abuse I have been seeing. |
| paigeoliver04-11-06, 04:03 AM | Yes water carries sound better than air, too bad it all comes out sounding like gloop, gloop, gloop, blarg, blarg. Anyway, most of the uproar about Marshalls are really because it is the first truly NEW class since the late 70s. It has unique abilities that are not simply combinations of the 4 archetypical classes. Thus the Marshall adds an entirely different thing to the game, which of course means all sorts of things are now possible that didn't used to be possible, but that doesn't make anything broken. Also remember, bad guys can be Marshalls too. Yes, Warmages, Sorcerors, and Favored Souls can dip one level of Marshall and get a great ability based of their existing prime requisite. But that "BROKEN" Marshall-Sorceror is eternally an entire level of spells behind an actual wizard, and is a level of spells behind other sorcerors half the time. Sorry, no haste spell for anyone until I am level 7, hope you like the initiative boost. Meanwhile his wizard buddy is casting haste at 5th level. Marshall-Bards are pretty good support characters at lower levels, but I think they are a poor choice for higher levels since the Bard pretty much destroyed whatever spellcasting ability he had by taking those Marshall levels. Might have well just have been a pure Marshall (which, by the way would be more attractive if it the class actually provided SOMETHING in between 9th level and 12th (at 9th level the marshall gains a new aura of each type, and then gains NOTHING else until 12th level). Any single level warrior dip sacrificed being a much better overall fighter for being good at one specific thing. That one level marshall dip will forever cost a BAB, and getting that 16 or so CHA on a melee fighter is going to mean you have 10 stat points less to put into actual fighting ability scores. Sure, sir trips a lot trips at +10 or +11 to his roll, while Sir Fighter only trips at plus 8. Guess what? Sir fighter still wins the fight since Sir Trips a lot has a 10 con and a 10 dex, while sir fighter has a 16 con and a 12 dex. Marshall rogue? Well there go them sneak attack dice out the window. |
| Sieylianna04-11-06, 07:38 AM | I've heard more triad complaints lately regarding marshalls than for any other class. Ed |
| haferka04-11-06, 08:16 AM | ...Yes, Warmages, Sorcerors, and Favored Souls can dip one level of Marshall and get a great ability based of their existing prime requisite. But that "BROKEN" Marshall-Sorceror is eternally an entire level of spells behind an actual wizard, and is a level of spells behind other sorcerors half the time. Sorry, no haste spell for anyone until I am level 7, hope you like the initiative boost. Meanwhile his wizard buddy is casting haste at 5th level. Marshall-Bards are pretty good support characters at lower levels, but I think they are a poor choice for higher levels since the Bard pretty much destroyed whatever spellcasting ability he had by taking those Marshall levels. Might have well just have been a pure Marshall (which, by the way would be more attractive if it the class actually provided SOMETHING in between 9th level and 12th (at 9th level the marshall gains a new aura of each type, and then gains NOTHING else until 12th level)... What you are ignoring... is that that initiative boost BREAKS ALL the upper EL encounters, since most can simply be beaten by a Party that acts first. 1-2 beafy fighters, a boom mage & a cleric, etc... that party can push out a TON of damage before the creature gets a chance to attack. A decent Cha & a boost item can make the 1 level bump worthwhile for just about ANY character build. Here is 3rd potential solution : - Initiative boost apply AFTER the first round of combat. |
| Arvagor04-11-06, 09:43 AM | Here is 3rd potential solution : - Initiative boost apply AFTER the first round of combat.A solution that doesn't work... Initiative is rolled once, at the start of combat, and your initiative order doesn't change unless you delay or ready an action |
| haferka04-11-06, 10:06 AM | whats so complicated.. at the end of the first round (when the marshal acted).. he bumps ALL his allies up in their initiative order... |
| CSHunt6804-11-06, 10:14 AM | What's worse than having all your enemies go first in combat? Giving them BACK TO BACK FULL ROUNDS. Next. |
| kenobi6504-11-06, 11:20 AM | whats so complicated.. at the end of the first round (when the marshal acted).. he bumps ALL his allies up in their initiative order... Initiative doesn't work that way, haferka. If you receive an effect that improves your Dexterity after the initiative order's been determined, it still doesn't have any effect on your initiative score; once it's rolled, it's set, and only actions like Delay or Ready change it. It's no different than trying to have the Bull's Strength you got in Round 2 of the combat retroactively let you do more damage on that attack you made in Round 1. |
| Mommy was an Orc04-11-06, 11:44 AM | Note that one of the strangest things is IMO the fact that the marshal immediately grants the full charisma bonus on the checks, while all other classes and prestige classes since 3.5 grant up to a maximum of the class level. Such a rule would certainly abuse the single level abuse I have been seeing. Actually, that's pretty common in 3.5. Paladin's Divine Grace, Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike, Champion of Corellon's Elegant Strike. Or for that matter Cleric's Turning ability immediately giving the full number of times per day instead of being something like Cha bonus turning attempts, +1 per 4 additional levels of Cleric(i.e. level 5, 9, 13, 17), which encourages dips into Cleric for Luck Domain and Turning feats. |
| haferka04-11-06, 01:31 PM | It's no different than trying to have the Bull's Strength you got in Round 2 of the combat retroactively let you do more damage on that attack you made in Round 1. wrong.. i'm not talking about changing events that have already happenend.. I'm saying it should affect allies initiatives as if they got a "free" bonus to their initiative on the NEXT combat round... think of it like a refocus, but it just adds the marshal aura as a bonus to the initative they already rolled. |
| Mommy was an Orc04-11-06, 01:47 PM | Marshall-Bards are pretty good support characters at lower levels, but I think they are a poor choice for higher levels since the Bard pretty much destroyed whatever spellcasting ability he had by taking those Marshall levels. Sublime Chord only requires 7 levels of Bard(if that) and Marshal easily fits into a Sublime Chord build. It also has the advantage of boosting one of the weakest elements of SC - the Fort Save. My Bard 6/Marshal 1 doesn't even have Diplomacy maxxed out and he's got a +25. I essentially used the Motivate Charisma to give me a +4 to Perform, UMD, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Bluff, Disguise, and Intimidate. Where else would I gain essentially +35 skill points from 1 level?(28 from the skill bonuses, 4 from Marshal, 2 Int, 1 Human) And eventually, that will go up to +56 if/when I have a 24 or so Charisma at level 12-13. The only cost is a caster level, a couple of level 4 known spells, a 4th level spell per day, and an item I plan to make/buy anyway(+6 Cloak of Charisma). Not to mention, I get +1 hp, +2 Fort, -1 Reflex, and +1 Will. Yes, there's a bit of delay in my spellcasting progression, but as I can now automatically UMD any Wand and 1st/2nd level scrolls, it isn't such a problem. Any single level warrior dip sacrificed being a much better overall fighter for being good at one specific thing. That one level marshall dip will forever cost a BAB, and getting that 16 or so CHA on a melee fighter is going to mean you have 10 stat points less to put into actual fighting ability scores. Sure, sir trips a lot trips at +10 or +11 to his roll, while Sir Fighter only trips at plus 8. Guess what? Sir fighter still wins the fight since Sir Trips a lot has a 10 con and a 10 dex, while sir fighter has a 16 con and a 12 dex. In theory, maybe, but Sir Trips A Lot with a 16 Cha is dumb for taking a 16 Cha - he's cost himself a full 4 points of physical stats for +1 to Trip. Unless there's other benefits, it doesn't make a lot of sense. A much more common thing to see is a 14 or 15 Cha where the build attempts to gain Charisma synergy - say a Barbarian 1/Marshal 2/Hexblade 2/Outcast Champion 5 - that way there's Charisma to Marshal ability, makes up for the lost BAB, has phenomenal saves, and fights about as well as a pure warrior build except specifically at levels 6, 11, and 16. Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 14. Usually gains 3 skill points per level, so not penalized by the low Int, has a base saves of +11/3/6 before adding say +3 to all spell saves from Hexblade and +5 to Will Saves, so isn't penalized by the low Wisdom either. Can raise either Strength or Charisma as he levels. The pure fighter is either a meatpuppet or he's constantly spending actions/money on protecting himself. Or he's spending his valuable extra feats to do something about it. Marshall rogue? Well there go them sneak attack dice out the window. A level(or more) of Marshal deals with many of the big Rogue problems - Poor Fort/Will Saves, lack of Martial Weapon and Shield Proficiency, access to Knowledge skills(all). A Rogue with a 14 Charisma, an eventual Cloak of Charisma +4, Motivate Dexterity, and Tactile Trapfinder gets +4 to all of the following skills: Search, Disable Device, Balance, Tumble, Escape Artist among others. +27 skill points vs +8 for Rogue is a huge shift(Skill Focus). And that's assuming you don't get a DM who insists that you are indeed able to use Motivate Dexterity for Hide/Move Silently... |
| solbergb04-11-06, 01:58 PM | Haferka you're not seeing it. Lets take a simple example, using my character Burke as an example. Burke is a strength oriented monk who can dish out 65-120 points of damage a round if he full attacks (depending on buffs, use of capsule retainers, etc), but only about 15-20 if he doesn't. BBEG rolls a 15 initiative Burke rolls a 13 initiative Marshall assume motivate dex cranks Burke's init up by at least 3. In scenario 1, the Marshall per the RAW Burke goes first, moves to enemy, attempts a setup maneuver (trip, grapple) etc. BBEG then has a round to either get out of trouble, or to rip out Burke's spleen with a full attack, depending on what kind of bad guy he is and whether or not the setup maneuver worked. If both BBEG and Burke are still there in round 2 after BBEG's actions, Burke gets to unload his damage. In scenario 2 (marshall's bonus doesn't kick in until round 2), then BBEG goes first and does something. Burke goes on initiative 13, moves up, does the setup manuever. Then in round 2, Burke now goes ahead of BBEG. He gets to unload, without any chance for the BBEG to retaliate or protect himself (moving, casting wall spell, whatever). Now consider what else a marshall can do. A marshal can give a free move action. In scenario 1, Burke gets a free move action, and thus gets to full attack the BBEG, but probably won't drop it (it IS a BBEG after all). BBEG gets to respond or escape. In scenario two, Burke is quietly standing there while BBEG takes an action, then the marshall pushes him next to the BBEG with the grant move action and Burke gets TWO full attacks (and with plenty of time for the party to toss extra buffs on him, like fires of purity, spikes or righteous wrath fo the faithful)...and do it with no chance for the BBEG to respond. It's better not to screw with the initiative order. There is no "Refocus" in 3.5, and delaying never causes the "two action in a row without response" thing. Hero systems has a phased turn mechanic, combined with delayed and readied type actions, where your initiative equivalent "Resets" every phase. Getting "double actions" is a big part of the tactics in the superhero game (and other variants, but the supers game tends to have more scope for it). Likewise the original Car Wars system had a similar mechanic, and I quite often won duels with careful timing of maneuvers to get two salvos off before the other guy could respond, just by exploiting the phased movement options. (two salvos meant...all armor gone and the internals of your car ripped up, instead of just most of your armor gone and you maneuver another facing before I can fire again). D&D doesn't need that kind of mechanic. I think the init system does a fair job of providing the "initiative" mechanic without providing game mechanic tricks. Champions (Hero games) needed an option for things like speedsters, which get many actions while a normal person gets only one and their system handles that more smoothly than the D&D "full attack" mechanic, but it does introduce some odd problems. |
| kenobi6504-11-06, 03:01 PM | wrong.. i'm not talking about changing events that have already happenend.. You don't think you are, but you really are. There's no mechanism in 3.5 to increase your initiative "number" once it's been rolled. "Delay" and "ready" move you down in the order, but there's no way to move up in the order. And, as solbergb has already noted, refocus doesn't exist in 3.5 (and even that cost you a round's action in order to move to the top of the order in the following round, and mechanically, was no different than delaying to the very end of the round). |
| haferka04-11-06, 03:28 PM | You don't think you are, but you really are. There's no mechanism in 3.5 to increase your initiative "number" once it's been rolled. "Delay" and "ready" move you down in the order, but there's no way to move up in the order. And, as solbergb has already noted, refocus doesn't exist in 3.5 (and even that cost you a round's action in order to move to the top of the order in the following round, and mechanically, was no different than delaying to the very end of the round). so, lets say.. the Marshal grants Motivate Dexterity... then switches to another aura... From your reasoning, the Initiative order remains as rolled with the marshal bonus, even tho he is now granting a different aura. That is even MORE broken than before... Also, if the Marshal stops granting his aura, for some reason (such as death)... your interpretation of the rules would allow his aura to continue granting its Initiative boost even tho it explicitly states that the aura ONLY works while the Marshal is capable of comunicating commands to his allies. |
| haferka04-11-06, 03:40 PM | ...In scenario 1, the Marshall per the RAW Burke goes first, moves to enemy, attempts a setup maneuver (trip, grapple) etc. BBEG then has a round to either get out of trouble, or to rip out Burke's spleen with a full attack, depending on what kind of bad guy he is and whether or not the setup maneuver worked. If both BBEG and Burke are still there in round 2 after BBEG's actions, Burke gets to unload his damage. In scenario 2 (marshall's bonus doesn't kick in until round 2), then BBEG goes first and does something. Burke goes on initiative 13, moves up, does the setup manuever. Then in round 2, Burke now goes ahead of BBEG. He gets to unload, without any chance for the BBEG to retaliate or protect himself (moving, casting wall spell, whatever). First, let me me say... that I have seen much better damage output by other tanks... Second, the Scenaria 2 works NOW... If the Marshal waits to activate his Motivate Dex till the END of the first round... BUT.... That is a tactic.. which untill now, I have missed... :) evil ... evil ... I would tend to agree that agree that delaying the Init boost till round 2 is overly complicated.. And I would personally, just treat the Initiative Boost as a Major Aura (thus limiting its bonus based on the Marshal level...)... |
| Arvagor04-11-06, 03:56 PM | so, lets say.. the Marshal grants Motivate Dexterity... then switches to another aura... From your reasoning, the Initiative order remains as rolled with the marshal bonus, even tho he is now granting a different aura. That is even MORE broken than before... Also, if the Marshal stops granting his aura, for some reason (such as death)... your interpretation of the rules would allow his aura to continue granting its Initiative boost even tho it explicitly states that the aura ONLY works while the Marshal is capable of comunicating commands to his allies. You're working on the (mistaken) assumption that a PC's Initiative is an inherent trait of the PC, like Strength or Int -- it is not, it is a one time check, just like any other ability check or skill check. Let's try another example... Instead of a marshal's Motivate Dex aura, let's say the party cleric had previously cast cat's grace on me. We'll assume, for this example, that my "normal" Dex is 16; the cat's grace gives me a +4 to my Dex, meaning +2 to my Dex bonus and all Dex-related skill checks, including Initiative. Combat starts, I roll a 14 for a 19 total, and BBEG rolls an 18 total. We start going at it, and say after two rounds of fighting, the spell finally wears off. That means my Dex bonus is now +3 instead of +5. Does my order in the initiative change as a result? No! Why? Initiative Checks: At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll. Characters act in order, counting down from highest result to lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions).A Marshal switching his aura from Motivate Dex to something else would result in the exact same situation -- no difference... |
| kenobi6504-11-06, 04:13 PM | You're working on the (mistaken) assumption that a PC's Initiative is an inherent trait of the PC, like Strength or Int -- it is not, it is a one time check, just like any other ability check or skill check. Thank you, Arvagor...you described it more clearly than I was. |
| paigeoliver04-11-06, 06:54 PM | Yes, my marshall wil regularly swap the dex aura on and off in combat depending on what is going on. Does it look like my rogue buddy is trying to move in for the flank? Then at the end of my action I will turn that dex bonus on to help him tumble. Also, I do not support the idea of LG making any "house rules" for Marshalls. But if they come out with official erratta for them then lets use it. Anyway, if you think Marshall PLAYERS are bad, imagine what could be done with Marshalls as bad guys. A Marshall player character will usually try to synergize off his own auras and HOPE everyone else can use them. Meanwhile that Marshall bad guy with the art of war aura happens to have be standing in a room where everyone has improved trip, improved disarm, and improved sunder. |
| haferka04-11-06, 07:44 PM | ...Anyway, if you think Marshall PLAYERS are bad, imagine what could be done with Marshalls as bad guys... This is EXACTLY why I am making a complaint... I have no problem using the class myself... but I would rather see it "fixed" than see it used against me. |
| Arvagor04-11-06, 09:55 PM | This is EXACTLY why I am making a complaint... I have no problem using the class myself... but I would rather see it "fixed" than see it used against me.Sorry, but what's good for the goose... If a player can use it untouched, then so can NPCs -- you can't have it both ways. I, for one, think it should be banned completely, not "fixed", but that's just me... But since I'm in the midst of finishing a mod right now, :plotting: perhaps it's time to truly have an evil mastermind directing every action of his minions, all who know how to work together, especialy went properly motivated by their master... MWUHAHAHAHA!!!! :evillaugh |
| JamesMaissen04-11-06, 11:58 PM | I've heard more triad complaints lately regarding marshalls than for any other class. Ed Yeah, it's always interesting what finds its way to the altar of 'broken'. It's right next to the dreaded 'over played' or 'too popular' sacrificial altar, and a bit removed from 'reality'. I recall when the Mystic Theurge first came out it was near the top of the 'broken' list. I think time has erroded that perception. Actually being a Marshal is like taking levels in Warrior.. without the full BAB. It's nice to have in the group, but really hurts being one yourself. It only starts getting sick when you have a sick Charisma backing it up, which normally means you have a sorcerer who's sacrificed a caster level for it. -James |
| redgamer04-12-06, 01:07 AM | Anyway, if you think Marshall PLAYERS are bad, imagine what could be done with Marshalls as bad guys. Ah yes the lvl 6 exotic weapon master spiked chain fighter with a marshall motivating his tripping. I remember him fondly. Our lvl 3 cleric tripped him before he got to attack. |
| paigeoliver04-12-06, 01:12 AM | I'll say it hurts. My Marshall 4/Fighter 1 has but a single kill to his name. Yes, he has 20 charisma and will eventually have 22 or 24 charisma (depends on if I get that cloak bumped up to +4 or not). He fills the fighter role worse than clerics or rogues, and gets knocked down to negative hit points quite frequently. But he makes a good party face, is rather good tactically against humans/humanoid foes, and can be fun against low flying flappy opponents. In one module in a giant fight (we lit a donkey cart on fire and then ran it and all our donkeys in the front door of the bad guys hideout), so of course they all ran out and we ended up fighting 4 encounters worth of bad guys at once. We were in rounds for 5 hours doing that fight, I spent 4 of them manuevering around the same opponent tripping and disarming him over and over again, hoping someone else could get over there to lay a beating on him. He was the toughest single opponent in the fight and I'd be dead if he had a weapon in hand for more than a round. Finally all the bad guys enlarge powers wore off and we mopped them up from there. On the way home I realized that myself, the other 5 players and the DM had all forgotten that an enlarged person's weapon goes back to regular size when dropped. That fight would have been over about 3 hours earlier and it wouldn't have almost killed EVERYONE if any of us had remembered that. No one actually died, but I believe half the party was down and stable, the rest of them had single digit hit points and all our healing was spent. I also faced that same (Marshall 3/Fighter 1 at the time), 8 Constitution character off solo against a Rakshasa in one module. I was able to tie him up long enough for the other characters to arrive, but I wouldn't have had much luck trying to beat on him myself. Where was I going with this? Eh, Marshall is a fun but frustrating class. |
| haferka04-12-06, 09:03 AM | Sorry, but what's good for the goose... If a player can use it untouched, then so can NPCs -- you can't have it both ways. I, for one, think it should be banned completely, not "fixed", but that's just me.. Again, You got the wrong impression... I also want it "fixed" for PCs as well as NPCs... one of those possible "fixes" is to simply restrict the aura. It is the simplest solution, and untill Wizards erratas the thing, it is probably the most likely solution for LG. |
| Arvagor04-12-06, 09:14 AM | Again, You got the wrong impression... I also want it "fixed" for PCs as well as NPCs... one of those possible "fixes" is to simply restrict the aura. It is the simplest solution, and untill Wizards erratas the thing, it is probably the most likely solution for LG.No, I got the right impression alright... But it's hard to listen to an argument/thread that starts out with/is titled "Marshal : Motivate Dexterity ###BROKEN###", then turns around and says, "I have no problem using the class myself..." Since the Miniatures Handbook has been out since October '03, and no errata has yet been released, it's a pretty good bet that there will not be one, period. Which means the LG "fix" would be banning the class entirely (i.e. making it "NPC Only" or "Restricted"), and I doubt that is going to happen any time soon... |
| Iswald04-12-06, 09:37 AM | There are other ways to change initiative beside improved init and motivate dex. However, most of them are limited: Shock and Awe (SpC, Bard 1), nerveskitter (SpC, wiz 1), and dread commando (HB). The marshal aura, though, remains the most powerful method that I'm aware of, not have any upper limit. |
| beyowulf04-12-06, 12:09 PM | Got a question here regarding Marshall. Does Motivate Strength affect attack and damage rolls? It would seem that it does, but I'd like to make sure. |
| Mommy was an Orc04-12-06, 12:44 PM | Got a question here regarding Marshall. Does Motivate Strength affect attack and damage rolls? It would seem that it does, but I'd like to make sure. No, just strength skills and strength checks. So it doesn't affect your ability to make a touch attack when making a Trip Attack, but it does affect the strength check roll afterwards. |
| beyowulf04-12-06, 01:07 PM | No, just strength skills and strength checks. So it doesn't affect your ability to make a touch attack when making a Trip Attack, but it does affect the strength check roll afterwards. Okay, I can see about not affecting the damage roll. But wouldn't an attack roll be a strength based check, modifed by BAB? The only place I could see it not working is in a place where you have a bunch of people using Weapon Finesse or bows. |
| Mommy was an Orc04-12-06, 02:14 PM | No. It isn't a strength based check - when you make an attack, you use your BAB+Strength modifier for melee weapons. That's not a check. Things which are checks are called checks. Example: "Making a Trip Attack...If you attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender's Dexterity or Strength check..." from PHB 158. Okay, I can see about not affecting the damage roll. But wouldn't an attack roll be a strength based check, modifed by BAB?. |
| haferka04-12-06, 02:41 PM | There is a specific MAJOR aura that grants a bonus to melee attacks. |
| paigeoliver04-12-06, 03:44 PM | And since there is also a specific trip aura that also comes with disarm too, the main use of the STR aura (in my opinion), is to help motivate that whole party to swim, swim, swim when the boat sinks or bridge collapses. To me the most useless one seems to be the constitution one. The wisdom one seems great (spot and listen), but is a poor choice for someone who has the dex aura since you would probably want to walk around with the dex aura on instead, and thus it just turns into a sense motive booster. |
| beyowulf04-12-06, 04:16 PM | And since there is also a specific trip aura that also comes with disarm too, the main use of the STR aura (in my opinion), is to help motivate that whole party to swim, swim, swim when the boat sinks or bridge collapses. To me the most useless one seems to be the constitution one. The wisdom one seems great (spot and listen), but is a poor choice for someone who has the dex aura since you would probably want to walk around with the dex aura on instead, and thus it just turns into a sense motive booster. The reason I asked is I have a mounted paladin, and I was thinking of taking one level in marshall before I the do the rest in cavalier. I've got a semi-decent charisma at 14, which I'll eventually increase to 15 and 16, then get a Cloak Charisma as well. If I were to take Marshall, the aura that would help me the most would probably be "Over The Top" for the damage when charging, but I'd like to benefit the party as well. So instead, what about 'Master of Tactics"? |
| paigeoliver04-12-06, 04:23 PM | I have an "Over the Top" Marshall and I find it benefits most of the party. Much more than my "Art of War" marshall who usually only ends up benefitting himself. I would put master of tactics as about equally useful as "Over the top", although having a mounted character I would say Over the Top would be slightly better. You don't always have the kind of characters that can manuever for the flank, but just about any melee character can charge in first round. |
| rook113804-12-06, 07:47 PM | Haferka you're not seeing it. Lets take a simple example, using my character Burke as an example. Burke is a strength oriented monk who can dish out 65-120 points of damage a round if he full attacks (depending on buffs, use of capsule retainers, etc), but only about 15-20 if he doesn't. First, let me me say... that I have seen much better damage output by other tanks... See, you assume too much. he's not a tank, and didn't claim to be. My tank travels with him on occassion. |
| Madfox1104-13-06, 04:44 AM | I'll say it hurts. My Marshall 4/Fighter 1 has but a single kill to his name. Yes, he has 20 charisma and will eventually have 22 or 24 charisma (depends on if I get that cloak bumped up to +4 or not). He fills the fighter role worse than clerics or rogues, and gets knocked down to negative hit points quite frequently. But he makes a good party face, is rather good tactically against humans/humanoid foes, and can be fun against low flying flappy opponents. It all depends on the choices you make when building your character. Focussing on charisma clearly does not make a character a better tank, especially if you give yourself a Con 8. Note that the Constitution aura can be quite good when you end up being forced into a forced march or when drowning. These are not situations that happen all too often in LG, but I think they are still better then the Int boost aura. |
| solbergb04-13-06, 07:58 PM | See, you assume too much. he's not a tank, and didn't claim to be. My tank travels with him on occassion. More accurately, Burke isn't a tank when there is a better one. He's had to do the role, and it worked out ok, but he's really more of a very mobile tactical fighter that can dish out sufficient damage to kill things if given a full attack. At APL12, monsters have from 80 to 200 hitpoints. Most can't survive two full attacks from him, or one if it's been beat up at all. That's "enough" offense. If Matt's dwarf is at the table, my first action is usually to place her next to the enemy, so she can full attack it. Then when it is ripping out the dwarf's spleen, I kill it the next round (if it is still there) with my full attack. Plus maybe trip stuff trying to get at his dwarf who has shocktrooper AC a lot of the time. The time I tripped several trees was kinda funny. |
| paigeoliver04-13-06, 08:54 PM | How did you trip a tree? I also keep track of exotic trips. So far I have tripped horses, ogres, a green hag, another hag that wasn't a green hag, 4 dragons, a rakshasha, a winged goblin thingy, many enlarged Duergar (thats a tough roll, dwarf bonus, enlarged bonus and they have high STR usually), and endless hoards of humans and humanoids. |
| solbergb04-14-06, 06:51 PM | Well there was this treeent see...and he animated these two trees, and they charged toward Matt's dwarf barbarian who currently had negative AC. My monk being enlarged, with hold the line, got enough trip attempts to nail both of them. The treent himself didn't try to run the gauntlet, which was lucky because I was out of AOO opportunities. Then the next round I picked up his dwarf and set him down next to the tripped trees. Instant kindling :) The funny thing about spiked chains. You get a massive intimidation factor when you trip a couple things (establishing that you have combat reflexes). With the exception of orcs, which just keep on coming, I've had quite a few occasions over Burke's career where they got all cautious, instead of doing the right thing, which is to run me out of AOO's. |
| Sect04-16-06, 03:43 AM | The reason I asked is I have a mounted paladin, and I was thinking of taking one level in marshall before I the do the rest in cavalier. I've got a semi-decent charisma at 14, which I'll eventually increase to 15 and 16, then get a Cloak Charisma as well. If I were to take Marshall, the aura that would help me the most would probably be "Over The Top" for the damage when charging, but I'd like to benefit the party as well. So instead, what about 'Master of Tactics"? Oh, wow. Something I can handle.<p> I currently have a Marshall 2/Paladin 2 in the Bright Sands with Over the Top and Motivate Care (bonus to AC). Thing you have to keep in mind is will it help my buddies, who are either non melee or too slow to keep up with my one hundred foot Ride By Attack? Remember that the aura has a range.<p> It looks like your one level in Marshall is mostly for yourself, so that you can add to the ridiculous amount of damage that you'll do as a Cavalier, therefore, choosing Over the Top isn't that much of a issue as it would be for someone who plays a more support role, like those Bard pussies who used the conversion to get that Motivate Dex :P (I'm joking, I love you guys, you effin' "higher diplomacy than me" guys...)<p> And if I were you, I wouldn't put those points in Charisma. Just get a potion of Eagle's Splendor or two, or invest the money in the Cloak and upgrade as you go. Put the points in either Strength or Con, cause you'll need them.<p> ... Well, Con not so much, because as a Cavalier your enemies are like WHOOSH! "Did you feel a breeze, Gruk? ... Oh, you seem to be missing your upper torso, what a pi- URK!" |
| TheMagus04-25-06, 10:51 PM | I have to admit, the Dread Pirate I retired in January had a splash level of marshall. Of course that was largely because I liked the idea of focusing on extraordinary (rather than supernatural) abilities, and I already had 10 levels of Dread Pirate. Yes, I took Motivate Dexterity. It offered both the synergy of boosting party initiative... a substantial benefit at APL 16 and 18, and it focused on movement skills, my specialty since early in the character's career. Do I feel guilty? Not in the slightest. Motivate Dexterity may be cheesy, but so are a lot of other things in the game. In this case it was the clear choice given the character's motivation. Which I established at GenCon back in 2000... long before any of these classes and abilities existed. David |
| beyowulf05-03-06, 04:42 PM | Oh, wow. Something I can handle.<p> I currently have a Marshall 2/Paladin 2 in the Bright Sands with Over the Top and Motivate Care (bonus to AC). Thing you have to keep in mind is will it help my buddies, who are either non melee or too slow to keep up with my one hundred foot Ride By Attack? Remember that the aura has a range.<p> True, but from what I've seen, going too far from the rest of your party when charging is usually a bad idea. Enemies tend to single you out to damage. Staying in range of my party shouldn't be a problem. And if I were you, I wouldn't put those points in Charisma. Just get a potion of Eagle's Splendor or two, or invest the money in the Cloak and upgrade as you go. Put the points in either Strength or Con, cause you'll need them.<p> ... Well, Con not so much, because as a Cavalier your enemies are like WHOOSH! "Did you feel a breeze, Gruk? ... Oh, you seem to be missing your upper torso, what a pi- URK!" Well Constitution I have in spades (16 base Con), I'll probably put in Strength |