Massive Damage at APL 4 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Massive Damage at APL 4 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SgtHulka
08-02-05, 09:56 PM I was playing a mod this weekend at APL 6 and a 6th Level Wizard hit two of the characters in our party with a sudden maximized Lightning Bolt. Not a huge deal in and of itself, but I was a bit shocked because I thought sudden mazimize was not allowed in LG. However, it's obviously available to NPC's. Also, someone at the table mentioned that it's available to Warmages.

Anyway, I was less concerned about the odd maximized sixth level lightning bolt than I was (and still am) about the possibility of having to face death from massive damage at relatively low APL's. A lowly fifth level wizard with scorching ray, point blank shot, and sudden maximize can do 50 points of damage in a single attack, yes? (2 rays at 4d6 each, +1 damage each from PBS). Or would this not cause massive damage because it comes from seperate rays?

If the above scenario doesn't cause massive damage, the alarm bells are a little less loud, because that means to get massive damage you still have to maximize a 9d6 fireball or lightning bolt, which means you have to be a level 9 caster, which you wouldn't see until APL 8.
Aremedis
08-02-05, 10:01 PM I was playing a mod this weekend at APL 6 and a 6th Level Wizard hit two of the characters in our party with a sudden maximized Lightning Bolt. Not a huge deal in and of itself, but I was a bit shocked because I thought sudden mazimize was not allowed in LG. However, it's obviously available to NPC's. Also, someone at the table mentioned that it's available to Warmages.

The Sudden X feats are only limited and thereby available to NPCs and even PCs with documentation

Anyway, I was less concerned about the odd maximized sixth level lightning bolt than I was (and still am) about the possibility of having to face death from massive damage at relatively low APL's. A lowly fifth level wizard with scorching ray, point blank shot, and sudden maximize can do 50 points of damage in a single attack, yes? (2 rays at 4d6 each, +1 damage each from PBS). Or would this not cause massive damage because it comes from seperate rays?

a) You do not receive 2 rays from scorching ray till 7th level.

b) No they would not do massive damage since it is 25 points of damage twice.

A 9th-level cleric on the other hand with a sudden maximized flamestrike WOULD deal massive damage. (assuming a failed save, and no energy resistance)
SgtHulka
08-02-05, 10:09 PM a) You do not receive 2 rays from scorching ray till 7th level.

Thanks; don't know why I missed the "beyond 3rd level" part of that spell description. None the less, massive damage at 7th level (APL 6) would still be frightening were it not for...

b) No they would not do massive damage since it is 25 points of damage twice.

Cool. I haven't made it passed 6th yet so I'm not too sure about the massive damage rules. Thanks for clarifying.

A 9th-level cleric on the other hand with a sudden maximized flamestrike WOULD deal massive damage. (assuming a failed save, and no energy resistance)

As would a sudden maximized 9th level Fireball, Ice Storm, Cone of Cold or Lightning Bolt. Again, scary, but you kind of have to expect it by the time you get to APL 8, don't you? Plus you get two chances to save (one versus the attack itself, and the second for the death from massive damage).

Thanks for the quick response.
Southernskies
08-02-05, 10:36 PM As would a sudden maximized 9th level Fireball, Ice Storm, Cone of Cold or Lightning Bolt. Again, scary, but you kind of have to expect it by the time you get to APL 8, don't you? Plus you get two chances to save (one versus the attack itself, and the second for the death from massive damage).

Thanks for the quick response.

That presumes you aren't killed outright from hp damage to start with.

An average Con in LG is 12-14 (say +2)
With d10 HD, you would have to be 6th level to not be killed outright (and the usual Magic Missile followup will kill you). Anyone with d8 or less HD will usually be dropped when playing AT their APL.

One reason I've only played three Year 5 scenarios so far (and 4 deaths +5 mounts dead in those three). The threat level has been ramped way up so only combat optimised PCs can survive (I was playing DOWN to APL12 and died once and went from max hp to -3 hp simply from hitting the monster once).
Sieylianna
08-03-05, 07:11 AM I'd like to play in the region where that NPC got access to Sudden Maximize. My wizard is 2-3 modules from retirement at 18th level and still hasn't seen access to that feat.

Ed
Drezden
08-03-05, 02:24 PM I had to go out of region to get access, myself. Found a mod in a neighboring region that offered access to ANY Limited Feat or spell. Didn't mind playing down for that mod. Now I can't wait to make next level (13 - feat from Loremaster Secret) for my next feat and my first Sudden Maximize spell.

Daren
Southernskies
08-03-05, 10:23 PM I had to go out of region to get access, myself. Found a mod in a neighboring region that offered access to ANY Limited Feat or spell. Didn't mind playing down for that mod. Now I can't wait to make next level (13 - feat from Loremaster Secret) for my next feat and my first Sudden Maximize spell.

Daren

Which is technically cheating under the campaign rules. You're not supposed to know ahead of time where to get access to feats/items in scenario (if you do, you cannot play that scenario).
Drezden
08-04-05, 09:48 AM Which is technically cheating under the campaign rules. You're not supposed to know ahead of time where to get access to feats/items in scenario (if you do, you cannot play that scenario).

Please show me the rules reference for this (as far as not being able to play the scenario).

I don't consider knowing that a particular favor is on an AR cheating at all, technically or not. If all you know is the wording of a favor or a particular item is on an AR, you have no knowledge of the challenges or combats in a module. It may help you decide which character to play, but it doesn't give you any advantage during the module.

Daren
BillKronick
08-04-05, 10:57 PM Which is technically cheating under the campaign rules. You're not supposed to know ahead of time where to get access to feats/items in scenario (if you do, you cannot play that scenario).

I appreciate that what you say is in the *SPIRIT* of the rules, but to enforce it literally would significantly reduce the number of judges volunteering for events.

I certainly would do no character auditing/checking of character legality or "correctness" if glimpsing the AR of a scenario I had not yet played would prevent me from playing it.

Regards,

Bill
RLWilde
08-09-05, 08:49 PM I appreciate that what you say is in the *SPIRIT* of the rules, but to enforce it literally would significantly reduce the number of judges volunteering for events.

That's true, of course. I used to sometimes joke in the LC days that people couldn't use certs from games I hadn't played yet, because that would mean "prior knowledge" from me.

I think the concern in this example, though, is from the casual mention of "found a mod in a neighboring region" granting access, and that the player "didn't mind playing down for that one". IMO it would not be unreasonable to infer that the player had been out LOOKING for prior knowledge of scenarios.

Actively looking for spoilers is a lot different in my book than passively noticing something in the course of running games.
AngusSmith
08-11-05, 04:38 PM I think the concern in this example, though, is from the casual mention of "found a mod in a neighboring region" granting access, and that the player "didn't mind playing down for that one". IMO it would not be unreasonable to infer that the player had been out LOOKING for prior knowledge of scenarios.

Actively looking for spoilers is a lot different in my book than passively noticing something in the course of running games.

Or you could be reading too much into his choice of words. I know I've made similar comments on occasion when I've noticed items on ARs I had to review when running a mod.

Angus
Drezden
08-12-05, 02:54 AM To clarify, I was not out there asking people for mods where Sudden Maximize was available. I had a conversation with a fellow player about a favor in region (in a mod that we both played) that offered access to any Limited Spell and he volunteered that there was a mod in a neighboring region that offered access to any Limited Spell or Feat. After picking up my jaw from the floor, :) I did make sure to play that particular mod at the next convention I went to in the neighboring region.

So someone spilled the beans to me, without me asking them to. I did make it a big priority to get that mod in with a particular character.

Daren
solbergb
08-25-05, 10:23 PM One reason I've only played three Year 5 scenarios so far (and 4 deaths +5 mounts dead in those three). The threat level has been ramped way up so only combat optimised PCs can survive (I was playing DOWN to APL12 and died once and went from max hp to -3 hp simply from hitting the monster once).

If you are dying 4 times in 3 mods, that says more about you than the mods.

I've only seen one player ever have a character die at that rate, and his decisions killed him each time. He was trying to play the character in a way it just wasn't sturdy enough to survive. Once he got a party member killed attempting to rescue him. I'm sure you are not him, he didn't have any mounts.

I have not found year 5 to be any more lethal than year 4 or year 3, and I've played all the local (Pale) regionals and (NMR) metaregionals, several Ket and Tusmit regionals and about half the cores and a few interactives/minimissions (including one in the Duchy) I've also opened the mods and prepped maybe quarter of those. Year 2 was rumored to be lethal but I only played those at low APL. I have noticed that it is not uncommon for a mod to have one APL (in the 4-6 offered) that is unusually lethal in a given encounter due to the way the monsters scale, so maybe in your case lightning struck a few times in the same place.

I have found the rewards on AR's to be progressively more useful from year 3-5, probably this is mostly the authors getting used to the AR system.
Southernskies
08-26-05, 04:32 AM If you are dying 4 times in 3 mods, that says more about you than the mods.

I have not found year 5 to be any more lethal than year 4 or year 3, and I've played all the local (Pale) regionals and (NMR) metaregionals, several Ket and Tusmit regionals and about half the cores and a few interactives/minimissions (including one in the Duchy) I've also opened the mods and prepped maybe quarter of those.
I personally only died once (Player vs Player death) and went unconscious from maximum in a second (playing DOWN to APL12 as a 14th level).

One of the issues you probably haven't noticed is the difference in builds from the US and those overseas and interparty co-operation.

While in the US/Canada, I played quite a few games with many maximised characters who breezed through heavy combats (yet didn't assist a single other PC at the table). I also played two interactives while over there and the EL guidelines were out the window at both APL14 and APL2.

At APL14, we faced 3 creatures from 3.0 rulebooks that were not converted to 3.5 rules (4 players had one-trick builds that had every feat/p-class and toy needed to max damage and not get hit; also let other PCS stand on their own to protect their own hp). At APL2, a single combat finished at EL8 after 5 rounds (32 goblins, 8 hobgoblin ftrs, hobgoblin Ftr with dire wolf mount, troll).

CORE adventures are also getting more and more combat intensive (and continually run longer than the 200 mins in the RPGA guidelines).

Local players don't get to play in other regions, so our non-core access is a total of 9 regional adventures (+8 metaregionals at high level), so the builds are a lower power level on average than in the US (no Broken of the Seven Veils, usual mix of Radiant Servants, much lower incidence of casters).
Sieylianna
08-26-05, 08:00 AM I have not found year 5 to be any more lethal than year 4 or year 3, and I've played all the local (Pale) regionals and (NMR) metaregionals, several Ket and Tusmit regionals and about half the cores and a few interactives/minimissions (including one in the Duchy) I've also opened the mods and prepped maybe quarter of those. Year 2 was rumored to be lethal but I only played those at low APL. I have noticed that it is not uncommon for a mod to have one APL (in the 4-6 offered) that is unusually lethal in a given encounter due to the way the monsters scale, so maybe in your case lightning struck a few times in the same place.

The lethality of the modules is largely a function of region. Highfolk has the deadliest modules of the 9 regions I've experienced. However, the VTF metaregionals are far nastier than the IUZ ones.

In the end it comes down to the judge. Some judges fudge things to keep PCs alive, some judges let the dice decide.

BTW, I encountered a sudden maximized, empowered fireball at APL 6 last weekend. If not for the "Not this Time" card, I would have gone from full hit points to negatives in one round (6th level ranger).

Ed
Southernskies
08-27-05, 12:31 AM BTW, I encountered a sudden maximized, empowered fireball at APL 6 last weekend. If not for the "Not this Time" card, I would have gone from full hit points to negatives in one round (6th level ranger).

Ed

Which is one of the points I was trying to make. On NPCs, the "Sudden" chain of feats will tend to generate TPKs.
boolean
08-29-05, 11:58 PM Which is one of the points I was trying to make. On NPCs, the "Sudden" chain of feats will tend to generate TPKs.

Agreed. "X per Day" abilities are always more powerful on NPCs who are only ever in one fight, and always start that fight fresh, than they are on PCs who often fight 3-4 fights in a single day and who therefore start later fights at less than full spell/ability capacity.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SgtHulka 08-02-05, 09:56 PM	I was playing a mod this weekend at APL 6 and a 6th Level Wizard hit two of the characters in our party with a sudden maximized Lightning Bolt. Not a huge deal in and of itself, but I was a bit shocked because I thought sudden mazimize was not allowed in LG. However, it's obviously available to NPC's. Also, someone at the table mentioned that it's available to Warmages. Anyway, I was less concerned about the odd maximized sixth level lightning bolt than I was (and still am) about the possibility of having to face death from massive damage at relatively low APL's. A lowly fifth level wizard with scorching ray, point blank shot, and sudden maximize can do 50 points of damage in a single attack, yes? (2 rays at 4d6 each, +1 damage each from PBS). Or would this not cause massive damage because it comes from seperate rays? If the above scenario doesn't cause massive damage, the alarm bells are a little less loud, because that means to get massive damage you still have to maximize a 9d6 fireball or lightning bolt, which means you have to be a level 9 caster, which you wouldn't see until APL 8.
Aremedis 08-02-05, 10:01 PM	I was playing a mod this weekend at APL 6 and a 6th Level Wizard hit two of the characters in our party with a sudden maximized Lightning Bolt. Not a huge deal in and of itself, but I was a bit shocked because I thought sudden mazimize was not allowed in LG. However, it's obviously available to NPC's. Also, someone at the table mentioned that it's available to Warmages. The Sudden X feats are only limited and thereby available to NPCs and even PCs with documentation Anyway, I was less concerned about the odd maximized sixth level lightning bolt than I was (and still am) about the possibility of having to face death from massive damage at relatively low APL's. A lowly fifth level wizard with scorching ray, point blank shot, and sudden maximize can do 50 points of damage in a single attack, yes? (2 rays at 4d6 each, +1 damage each from PBS). Or would this not cause massive damage because it comes from seperate rays? a) You do not receive 2 rays from scorching ray till 7th level. b) No they would not do massive damage since it is 25 points of damage twice. A 9th-level cleric on the other hand with a sudden maximized flamestrike WOULD deal massive damage. (assuming a failed save, and no energy resistance)
SgtHulka 08-02-05, 10:09 PM	a) You do not receive 2 rays from scorching ray till 7th level. Thanks; don't know why I missed the "beyond 3rd level" part of that spell description. None the less, massive damage at 7th level (APL 6) would still be frightening were it not for... b) No they would not do massive damage since it is 25 points of damage twice. Cool. I haven't made it passed 6th yet so I'm not too sure about the massive damage rules. Thanks for clarifying. A 9th-level cleric on the other hand with a sudden maximized flamestrike WOULD deal massive damage. (assuming a failed save, and no energy resistance) As would a sudden maximized 9th level Fireball, Ice Storm, Cone of Cold or Lightning Bolt. Again, scary, but you kind of have to expect it by the time you get to APL 8, don't you? Plus you get two chances to save (one versus the attack itself, and the second for the death from massive damage). Thanks for the quick response.
Southernskies 08-02-05, 10:36 PM	As would a sudden maximized 9th level Fireball, Ice Storm, Cone of Cold or Lightning Bolt. Again, scary, but you kind of have to expect it by the time you get to APL 8, don't you? Plus you get two chances to save (one versus the attack itself, and the second for the death from massive damage). Thanks for the quick response. That presumes you aren't killed outright from hp damage to start with. An average Con in LG is 12-14 (say +2) With d10 HD, you would have to be 6th level to not be killed outright (and the usual Magic Missile followup will kill you). Anyone with d8 or less HD will usually be dropped when playing AT their APL. One reason I've only played three Year 5 scenarios so far (and 4 deaths +5 mounts dead in those three). The threat level has been ramped way up so only combat optimised PCs can survive (I was playing DOWN to APL12 and died once and went from max hp to -3 hp simply from hitting the monster once).
Sieylianna 08-03-05, 07:11 AM	I'd like to play in the region where that NPC got access to Sudden Maximize. My wizard is 2-3 modules from retirement at 18th level and still hasn't seen access to that feat. Ed
Drezden 08-03-05, 02:24 PM	I had to go out of region to get access, myself. Found a mod in a neighboring region that offered access to ANY Limited Feat or spell. Didn't mind playing down for that mod. Now I can't wait to make next level (13 - feat from Loremaster Secret) for my next feat and my first Sudden Maximize spell. Daren
Southernskies 08-03-05, 10:23 PM	I had to go out of region to get access, myself. Found a mod in a neighboring region that offered access to ANY Limited Feat or spell. Didn't mind playing down for that mod. Now I can't wait to make next level (13 - feat from Loremaster Secret) for my next feat and my first Sudden Maximize spell. Daren Which is technically cheating under the campaign rules. You're not supposed to know ahead of time where to get access to feats/items in scenario (if you do, you cannot play that scenario).
Drezden 08-04-05, 09:48 AM	Which is technically cheating under the campaign rules. You're not supposed to know ahead of time where to get access to feats/items in scenario (if you do, you cannot play that scenario). Please show me the rules reference for this (as far as not being able to play the scenario). I don't consider knowing that a particular favor is on an AR cheating at all, technically or not. If all you know is the wording of a favor or a particular item is on an AR, you have no knowledge of the challenges or combats in a module. It may help you decide which character to play, but it doesn't give you any advantage during the module. Daren
BillKronick 08-04-05, 10:57 PM	Which is technically cheating under the campaign rules. You're not supposed to know ahead of time where to get access to feats/items in scenario (if you do, you cannot play that scenario). I appreciate that what you say is in the SPIRIT of the rules, but to enforce it literally would significantly reduce the number of judges volunteering for events. I certainly would do no character auditing/checking of character legality or "correctness" if glimpsing the AR of a scenario I had not yet played would prevent me from playing it. Regards, Bill
RLWilde 08-09-05, 08:49 PM	I appreciate that what you say is in the SPIRIT of the rules, but to enforce it literally would significantly reduce the number of judges volunteering for events. That's true, of course. I used to sometimes joke in the LC days that people couldn't use certs from games I hadn't played yet, because that would mean "prior knowledge" from me. I think the concern in this example, though, is from the casual mention of "found a mod in a neighboring region" granting access, and that the player "didn't mind playing down for that one". IMO it would not be unreasonable to infer that the player had been out LOOKING for prior knowledge of scenarios. Actively looking for spoilers is a lot different in my book than passively noticing something in the course of running games.
AngusSmith 08-11-05, 04:38 PM	I think the concern in this example, though, is from the casual mention of "found a mod in a neighboring region" granting access, and that the player "didn't mind playing down for that one". IMO it would not be unreasonable to infer that the player had been out LOOKING for prior knowledge of scenarios. Actively looking for spoilers is a lot different in my book than passively noticing something in the course of running games. Or you could be reading too much into his choice of words. I know I've made similar comments on occasion when I've noticed items on ARs I had to review when running a mod. Angus
Drezden 08-12-05, 02:54 AM	To clarify, I was not out there asking people for mods where Sudden Maximize was available. I had a conversation with a fellow player about a favor in region (in a mod that we both played) that offered access to any Limited Spell and he volunteered that there was a mod in a neighboring region that offered access to any Limited Spell or Feat. After picking up my jaw from the floor, :) I did make sure to play that particular mod at the next convention I went to in the neighboring region. So someone spilled the beans to me, without me asking them to. I did make it a big priority to get that mod in with a particular character. Daren
solbergb 08-25-05, 10:23 PM	One reason I've only played three Year 5 scenarios so far (and 4 deaths +5 mounts dead in those three). The threat level has been ramped way up so only combat optimised PCs can survive (I was playing DOWN to APL12 and died once and went from max hp to -3 hp simply from hitting the monster once). If you are dying 4 times in 3 mods, that says more about you than the mods. I've only seen one player ever have a character die at that rate, and his decisions killed him each time. He was trying to play the character in a way it just wasn't sturdy enough to survive. Once he got a party member killed attempting to rescue him. I'm sure you are not him, he didn't have any mounts. I have not found year 5 to be any more lethal than year 4 or year 3, and I've played all the local (Pale) regionals and (NMR) metaregionals, several Ket and Tusmit regionals and about half the cores and a few interactives/minimissions (including one in the Duchy) I've also opened the mods and prepped maybe quarter of those. Year 2 was rumored to be lethal but I only played those at low APL. I have noticed that it is not uncommon for a mod to have one APL (in the 4-6 offered) that is unusually lethal in a given encounter due to the way the monsters scale, so maybe in your case lightning struck a few times in the same place. I have found the rewards on AR's to be progressively more useful from year 3-5, probably this is mostly the authors getting used to the AR system.
Southernskies 08-26-05, 04:32 AM	If you are dying 4 times in 3 mods, that says more about you than the mods. I have not found year 5 to be any more lethal than year 4 or year 3, and I've played all the local (Pale) regionals and (NMR) metaregionals, several Ket and Tusmit regionals and about half the cores and a few interactives/minimissions (including one in the Duchy) I've also opened the mods and prepped maybe quarter of those. I personally only died once (Player vs Player death) and went unconscious from maximum in a second (playing DOWN to APL12 as a 14th level). One of the issues you probably haven't noticed is the difference in builds from the US and those overseas and interparty co-operation. While in the US/Canada, I played quite a few games with many maximised characters who breezed through heavy combats (yet didn't assist a single other PC at the table). I also played two interactives while over there and the EL guidelines were out the window at both APL14 and APL2. At APL14, we faced 3 creatures from 3.0 rulebooks that were not converted to 3.5 rules (4 players had one-trick builds that had every feat/p-class and toy needed to max damage and not get hit; also let other PCS stand on their own to protect their own hp). At APL2, a single combat finished at EL8 after 5 rounds (32 goblins, 8 hobgoblin ftrs, hobgoblin Ftr with dire wolf mount, troll). CORE adventures are also getting more and more combat intensive (and continually run longer than the 200 mins in the RPGA guidelines). Local players don't get to play in other regions, so our non-core access is a total of 9 regional adventures (+8 metaregionals at high level), so the builds are a lower power level on average than in the US (no Broken of the Seven Veils, usual mix of Radiant Servants, much lower incidence of casters).
Sieylianna 08-26-05, 08:00 AM	I have not found year 5 to be any more lethal than year 4 or year 3, and I've played all the local (Pale) regionals and (NMR) metaregionals, several Ket and Tusmit regionals and about half the cores and a few interactives/minimissions (including one in the Duchy) I've also opened the mods and prepped maybe quarter of those. Year 2 was rumored to be lethal but I only played those at low APL. I have noticed that it is not uncommon for a mod to have one APL (in the 4-6 offered) that is unusually lethal in a given encounter due to the way the monsters scale, so maybe in your case lightning struck a few times in the same place. The lethality of the modules is largely a function of region. Highfolk has the deadliest modules of the 9 regions I've experienced. However, the VTF metaregionals are far nastier than the IUZ ones. In the end it comes down to the judge. Some judges fudge things to keep PCs alive, some judges let the dice decide. BTW, I encountered a sudden maximized, empowered fireball at APL 6 last weekend. If not for the "Not this Time" card, I would have gone from full hit points to negatives in one round (6th level ranger). Ed
Southernskies 08-27-05, 12:31 AM	BTW, I encountered a sudden maximized, empowered fireball at APL 6 last weekend. If not for the "Not this Time" card, I would have gone from full hit points to negatives in one round (6th level ranger). Ed Which is one of the points I was trying to make. On NPCs, the "Sudden" chain of feats will tend to generate TPKs.
boolean 08-29-05, 11:58 PM	Which is one of the points I was trying to make. On NPCs, the "Sudden" chain of feats will tend to generate TPKs. Agreed. "X per Day" abilities are always more powerful on NPCs who are only ever in one fight, and always start that fight fresh, than they are on PCs who often fight 3-4 fights in a single day and who therefore start later fights at less than full spell/ability capacity.