Post/Author/DateTime	Post
haferka 12-03-06, 08:08 PM	Can we discuss and share a list of the various limited game mechanics (feats, prestige classes, etc)? (Only those elements gained from Metaorgs... nothing from mods!) It is possible to spend days browsing the various regional websites to find the information myself. But I don't wana do that... In fact this would be a GREAT thing to list on the main LG website..
Swiftbrook 12-03-06, 08:19 PM	Easier said then done. I'm from Furyondy. Our soucebook is 49 pages long and has 17 meta-orgs. Multiply that by all the different regions and that's a lot of information to sort through. Ture, it would be easier if a famous WotC sortable List. -Swiftbrook
Britt 12-03-06, 08:49 PM	If the purpose of the metaorgs was to give you access, yes, that would be a great list; however, the benefits are supposed to be ancillary to the roleplaying for metaorgs. That is exactly why metaorgs can't give access to magic items anymore and why the number of PrCs, spells, and feats have been extremely curtailed. Having a list would just make it easier to use these for rules items rather than roleplaying and encourage more of that activity, which is the exact opposite of what we want to do. I'm not trying to bash on you or anything; I'm just trying to explain the motivation and purpose behind metaorgs.
LGMoses 12-03-06, 09:06 PM	Is there any real point to joining meta-orgs if u'll never really travel newhere? Just you and the same 7 or 8 buddies for next 4 or 5 years?
kenobi65 12-03-06, 09:14 PM	Is there any real point to joining meta-orgs if u'll never really travel newhere? Just you and the same 7 or 8 buddies for next 4 or 5 years? Well, yeah. Other than the access to some limited items, there's the roleplaying aspect. If you're a ranger, and live in the forest, why not be a member of your region's group that protects that forest. At least in my region (Verbobonc), most of our regional modules are now specifically tied to certain metaorgs, and members of those metaorgs may have a different role to play in those modules than just a random adventurer.
Haro 12-03-06, 09:37 PM	At least in my region (Verbobonc), most of our regional modules are now specifically tied to certain metaorgs, and members of those metaorgs may have a different role to play in those modules than just a random adventurer. Perrenland has been moving in that direction for a while now. Several modules have alternate resolutions and ways to resolve encounters dependant upon various meta-org membership. To the point that the blurbs now have lines such as 'this adventure is of particular interest to <insert meta-org> members'. Which I personally think is fantastic. Joe
kenobi65 12-03-06, 09:52 PM	To the point that the blurbs now have lines such as 'this adventure is of particular interest to <insert meta-org> members'. As do ours. Things have gotten interesting for members of certain orgs, to be sure. :)
LGMoses 12-03-06, 10:15 PM	True, I just meant since you'll never interact with others from the meta-orgs.
kenobi65 12-03-06, 10:47 PM	True, I just meant since you'll never interact with others from the meta-orgs. Not sure that that does (or should) make much of a difference. It more impacts how your PC approaches your region, and how NPCs may react to your PC.
DuctShuiTengu 12-03-06, 10:52 PM	At least in my region (Verbobonc), most of our regional modules are now specifically tied to certain metaorgs, and members of those metaorgs may have a different role to play in those modules than just a random adventurer. A few of the mods over here in Gran March are like that. ... actually, that's not quite true. The more accurate way of putting it is that all of the mods written by the member of the local triad who's responsible for the local thieves guild have the favors (and sometimes access) they grant phrased as "If you're not a member of my metaorg, you get nothing. You get nothing and you will like it." With options on "You get :censored: up the :censored: for not being a member of my metaorg." And just to add injury to insult, a fair number of these mods are also written such that parties without a rogue (and/or a member of the aforementioned metaorg) are left either getting TPKed by traps, or having to give up and go home without getting anything. Most of them fail to include a 'this adventure is of particular interest to <insert meta-org> members' blurb.
Gwumph 12-03-06, 11:13 PM	I gotta go with DuctShuiTengu here. Recently we just finished a mod that the best magic items were reserved for meta-org treasure hunters guild. If treasure hunter guild members had to do something special to receive these items I could understand, but they weren't!! We were under orders by the Perrenland Military to do this mission and as a Paladin I followed those orders. So did the rest of the party. We all took equal risk and yet at the end of the adventure, the treasure hunter meta-org member gets regional access to several really useful items and the rest of the party really didn't access to anything special...... What a load of BS that is with everyone taking equal risk, and yet we are denied access to items because we didn't join that meta-org. I was really really ****** with the AR of this Mod!!!!
DuctShuiTengu 12-04-06, 01:25 AM	To clarify, I don't mind if the mod gives a little extra to members of a metaorg if it's appropriate to the mod in question. (If the mod revolves around you working with the church of Heironious, it's appropriate for Heironians to get extra.) the blurb warns (directly or indirectly. If the blurb says it's set in the Dim Forest, I consider that enough advanced notice that this is something to play with my char who's a member of the Dim Forest Elves metaorg.) of the connection to said group. characters who aren't in said metaorg still get something from it ("For helping the nifty-magic-item-creating metaorg, everyone gets a wonderous item of their choice with a cost of up to 10,000 gold. Members of the nifty-magic-item-creating metaorg can instead choose any wonderous item with a cost of up to 25,000 gold.")
haferka 12-04-06, 01:28 AM	I have seen this done for Interactives in my region, and I must say.. I like it. If done properly, they access gives you a taste of the metaorg flavor, and encourages people to join metaorgs. Like all things, when done poorly, it detracts from the game.. like the several examples above. Getting NOTHING, simply becouse you are or are not a member of a metaorg is BS. I really think that all mods centered around a metaorg should have a warning in the blurb.. either encouraging or discouraging certain metaorg members from playing the mod. I gotta go with DuctShuiTengu here. Recently we just finished a mod that the best magic items were reserved for meta-org treasure hunters guild. If treasure hunter guild members had to do something special to receive these items I could understand, but they weren't!! We were under orders by the Perrenland Military to do this mission and as a Paladin I followed those orders. So did the rest of the party. We all took equal risk and yet at the end of the adventure, the treasure hunter meta-org member gets regional access to several really useful items and the rest of the party really didn't access to anything special...... What a load of BS that is with everyone taking equal risk, and yet we are denied access to items because we didn't join that meta-org. I was really really ****** with the AR of this Mod!!!!
Simpi 12-04-06, 03:30 AM	Can we discuss and share a list of the various limited game mechanics (feats, prestige classes, etc)? (Only those elements gained from Metaorgs... nothing from mods!) You should also be aware that some of the regions, like ours, only grant "regional" access to feats/prestige classes and to stop people from around the globe abusing this system, all AR request go through Triad (rather than downloading them from the website) and to join our MO, you need to actually play a module taking place in the region. I am quite sure one can find same feats & prestige classes from other regions but I would rather stick to principle "Regional MOs belong to people who actually live in the region" rather than serving the needs of pick'n´mixers who by default dont care about the region, either their own or ours (since they actually go looking for access outside their own region). Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
Gwumph 12-04-06, 04:14 AM	On this line of topic. What about Core Orgs? i.e. I am now a member of the Nightwatch of the City of Greyhawk, but i can't find any AR for it?? I have noticed a couple other core mods that offer memberships to this or that org, but there never seem to be any AR's for them?? Cheers Gwumph
Britt 12-04-06, 04:15 AM	Those aren't metaorgs; they are just plain orgs. There are no certs for them.
haferka 12-04-06, 04:58 AM	OK, I have been to Winter fantasy once, and plan to go again... so, there is a definite possibility that I could potentially join a metaorg from a different region than my own. Provided that I start the character in that region, or move my existing character to that region at the beginning of the year. Metaorgs are ALWAYS regional... they require your character to be from that region, or have traveled there (changing regions at beginning of year), and they require the signiture of a regional judge. Last time I went to Winter Fantasy, I played a mod from another region which gave me a half-fey child, how cool is that.. If I had known ahead of time what metaorgs existed for that region I would have joined one just for the kicks... You should also be aware that some of the regions, like ours, only grant "regional" access to feats/prestige classes and to stop people from around the globe abusing this system, all AR request go through Triad (rather than downloading them from the website) and to join our MO, you need to actually play a module taking place in the region. I am quite sure one can find same feats & prestige classes from other regions but I would rather stick to principle "Regional MOs belong to people who actually live in the region" rather than serving the needs of pick'n´mixers who by default dont care about the region, either their own or ours (since they actually go looking for access outside their own region). Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
Iswald 12-04-06, 05:09 AM	Metaorgs are ALWAYS regional... they require your character to be from that region, or have traveled there (changing regions at beginning of year), and they require the signiture of a regional judge. Not all meta-orgs require your PC to be a resident of the sponsoring region.
haferka 12-04-06, 08:39 AM	Not all meta-orgs require your PC to be a resident of the sponsoring region. ok, so "some" metaorgs do not require your character to be from a particular region. My other point still stands. You need the signiture of a judge from that region of the metaorg... those don't just pop up at every con.
Lupo 12-04-06, 09:34 AM	You should also be aware that some of the regions, like ours, only grant "regional" access to feats/prestige classes and to stop people from around the globe abusing this system, all AR request go through Triad (rather than downloading them from the website) and to join our MO, you need to actually play a module taking place in the region. I am quite sure one can find same feats & prestige classes from other regions but I would rather stick to principle "Regional MOs belong to people who actually live in the region" rather than serving the needs of pick'n´mixers who by default dont care about the region, either their own or ours (since they actually go looking for access outside their own region). Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad i agree that meta-prgs should have some regional flavour, but with two whole sets of characters without any regional meta-organisations - the bright sands characters - and players from countries without a lg-region, there should be a possibility for these to gain access to meta-organisations without: a.) need to be a resident of said region and b.) without being required to actually play a module there. while i agree that cherry picking shouldn't be encouraged i also see it problem to ban these players and characters from meta-organisations entirely. ciao martin m.
copper_wyrmling 12-04-06, 03:54 PM	Where does it say you need the signature of a regional judge? Earlier this year, I posted on the Living Greyhawk list, searching for a fiend-hunting meta-org that my high-level Sacred Exorcist could join, since there wasn't any such org in my own region. The responses I got were pretty much uniformly positive - I think it was obvious to all that I was doing it for RP reasons. In particular, the Sunndi Triad advised me of the existence of the Disciples of the Phoenix, which was pretty much exactly what I was looking for (look up the org on the Sunndi website; the bonuses are pretty minor and the TU cost is high, but it's *very* flavorful). They knew that there was no prospect of me visiting Sunndi in the immediate future, but were still happy for my PC to join, unless I completely misunderstood their emails. That's one of the meta-orgs that specifically accepts out-of-region PCs - the fiend-hunters want all the help they can get ;) Don't assume that people who look for meta-orgs outside their own region don't care about their region or are just looking for access benefits. Do you think it was poor roleplaying for my L14 demon-hunting priestess of Joramy to seek out other lands where her skills and long experience are needed in the eternal war against the creatures of the Abyss? She's not abandoning her home - she has access to spells that let her cross the Flanaess in hours, and return home in an instant if she's needed there.
gomeztoo 12-04-06, 04:57 PM	My PC is a member of the Enlanefel Elf clan, The Druids of the Gnarley, the Wanderers of Coldeven, and the Town of Ketter's Heart (she also owns a bath house in Twilight Falls). These are MOs (or something siimilar), in a region I have never visited. There was a benefit for joining the Druids of the Gnarley ( a bonus on Survival for Living o fthe Wild) but IMO the main thing is that my PC can now call herself a druid...without having the class ;) Now my PC participates regionally through the town project malinglists... hence she has the possibility to user her membership in roleplay (being a clan elf already got her into quite some trouble). But even if not, being a member of, say, the Wanderers or Coldeven gives you a better feeling, because you know you're not looting monsters, you're there to help the people!
kenobi65 12-04-06, 05:31 PM	My PC is a member of the Enlanefel Elf clan, The Druids of the Gnarley, the Wanderers of Coldeven, and the Town of Ketter's Heart (she also owns a bath house in Twilight Falls). These are MOs (or something siimilar), in a region I have never visited. And we're darn proud to have our Euro-Verboboncer. :) (Clan Fealefel here, for my grey elf warmage; my paladin's a citizen of Swan.)
Mommy was an Orc 12-04-06, 05:50 PM	If someone puts some work into such a thread, where the benefits are cleanly and clearly laid out, I will link my compilation to it. I'll disagree with Brit here - I think making such a general resource available would be useful for precisely the reason he thinks it wouldn't be. It would point out the metaorgs that are way too good for the cost and get the triads to cut down on them a bit. There's a couple of Keoland metaorgs that offer Ruathar as an example, a thoroughly broken PrC - way too easy to get into(Wizard 5 or simply being 6th level and joining the Save an Elf metaorg will do) and has an extremely powerful skill list for getting into PrCs. If you're a Sorcerer 6, you pretty much have to do this - it opens up so many arcane PrCs, it is ridiculous... ------- In any case, what I'd like to see is some very low TU cost metaorgs without a lot of benefits at all, but with some cool roleplaying flavor. A Bardic College with a TU cost of 1 doesn't have to give out access to MW Musical Instrument training, but it could mean that you have status as a travelling musician - +1 on cha checks where it could reasonably involve persuading someone to let you perform a medley. I really see a lack of such things, which would be a nice way to have some roleplaying opportunity without requiring a mechanical advantage to get people to join up. Most of the time, I'm interested in joining the metaorg because it seems cool, but half of them take 4+ TUs and offer mechanical advantages I'm not interested in.
Britt 12-04-06, 06:01 PM	It can't possibly open up more than 8 (legally) and those would be the only 8 PrCs the region could offer in all their metaorgs combined. If they want to put all 8 of their eggs in one metaorg basket, that would likely encourage certain builds and roleplaying and reinforce regional flavor. With the cap of 8, it's hard to be that ridiculous without crippling any other options. Now, if they are offering more than 8 across all orgs, that's a problem.
Lupo 12-04-06, 06:09 PM	If someone puts some work into such a thread, where the benefits are cleanly and clearly laid out, I will link my compilation to it. I'll disagree with Brit here - I think making such a general resource available would be useful for precisely the reason he thinks it wouldn't be. It would point out the metaorgs that are way too good for the cost and get the triads to cut down on them a bit. There's a couple of Keoland metaorgs that offer Ruathar as an example, a thoroughly broken PrC - way too easy to get into(Wizard 5 or simply being 6th level and joining the Save an Elf metaorg will do) and has an extremely powerful skill list for getting into PrCs. If you're a Sorcerer 6, you pretty much have to do this - it opens up so many arcane PrCs, it is ridiculous... ------- In any case, what I'd like to see is some very low TU cost metaorgs without a lot of benefits at all, but with some cool roleplaying flavor. A Bardic College with a TU cost of 1 doesn't have to give out access to MW Musical Instrument training, but it could mean that you have status as a travelling musician - +1 on cha checks where it could reasonably involve persuading someone to let you perform a medley. I really see a lack of such things, which would be a nice way to have some roleplaying opportunity without requiring a mechanical advantage to get people to join up. Most of the time, I'm interested in joining the metaorg because it seems cool, but half of them take 4+ TUs and offer mechanical advantages I'm not interested in. :D you can have all my druid's "member of the burrowers of the hollow highlands" or "sunndi irregulars" benefits. wasn't it for in-character, flavour and role-playing issues i would have never joined. actually i joined the burrowers before actual "benefits" were clear, now i am stuck, as leaving now would be considered desertation from a sunndian army unit ;) the only character of me, who is going to pick a meta-org for character development issues is my wizard from the bright desert, for getting access to mage of the arcane order (and he will be likely to play a lot of modules in the region of the organisation anyway). ciao martin m.
Mommy was an Orc 12-04-06, 07:57 PM	It can't possibly open up more than 8 (legally) and those would be the only 8 PrCs the region could offer in all their metaorgs combined. If they want to put all 8 of their eggs in one metaorg basket, that would likely encourage certain builds and roleplaying and reinforce regional flavor. With the cap of 8, it's hard to be that ridiculous without crippling any other options. Now, if they are offering more than 8 across all orgs, that's a problem. The problem is PrCs that don't have logical restrictions. As an example, a Sorcerer qualifying for Sacred Exorcist is difficult - there's no obvious PrC to get Know(Plane) without spending a feat on it. Sorc 6/Ruathar 3/Mindbender 1/Sacred Exorcist 5 is a pretty wicked Sorc build - it has pretty good hit points, telepathy, decent BAB, turning(and therefore access to turning feats...it also has no feat prereqs. Join the Save an Elf Metaorg(20 gold can feed a family of Elves for a month!) and qualify for Ruathar. Take a special mission for Mindbender in year 1, Sacred Exorcist in year 2(or 3) of the build for Sacred Exorcist. That's an example of problems that easy(and plannable) Ruathar access can cause...
copper_wyrmling 12-04-06, 10:59 PM	Sorc 6/Ruathar 3/Mindbender 1/Sacred Exorcist 5 is a pretty wicked Sorc build - it has pretty good hit points, telepathy, decent BAB, turning(and therefore access to turning feats...it also has no feat prereqs. Join the Save an Elf Metaorg(20 gold can feed a family of Elves for a month!) and qualify for Ruathar. Take a special mission for Mindbender in year 1, Sacred Exorcist in year 2(or 3) of the build for Sacred Exorcist. That's an example of problems that easy(and plannable) Ruathar access can cause... This build is illegal, incidentally - Sacred Exorcist and Mindbender have mutually exclusive alignment requirements. Is it really that big a problem to allow sorcerers to access PrCs with Knowledge skill requirements without taking a contorted route through Wild Mage / Elemental Savant / some wizardly PrC with "all Knowledge skills" on the class list? I don't really see this as an issue.
Mommy was an Orc 12-05-06, 10:18 AM	This build is illegal, incidentally - Sacred Exorcist and Mindbender have mutually exclusive alignment requirements. Is it really that big a problem to allow sorcerers to access PrCs with Knowledge skill requirements without taking a contorted route through Wild Mage / Elemental Savant / some wizardly PrC with "all Knowledge skills" on the class list? I don't really see this as an issue. Replace Mindbender with a level of something else. It doesn't just apply to Sorcerers either. Cleric 8/Ruathar 3/Seeker of the Misty Isle 4 - no feat prereqs, extra domain, lots of skill points, full caster, all at the cost of being an elf of some sort. Even have the same BAB if that matters. And that one is fully legal. In general, a lot of PrCs are balanced in the following ways: If they don't want Clerics getting into them, make the prereq Survival. If they don't want Wizards getting into them, make the prereq Bluff and Diplomacy. Sorcs = Knowledge Skills Druids = loss of Wild Shape Ruathar bypasses all of those(except Wildshape of course)
trollbill 12-06-06, 02:08 PM	There's a couple of Keoland metaorgs that offer Ruathar as an example, a thoroughly broken PrC - way too easy to get into(Wizard 5 or simply being 6th level and joining the Save an Elf metaorg will do) and has an extremely powerful skill list for getting into PrCs. If you're a Sorcerer 6, you pretty much have to do this - it opens up so many arcane PrCs, it is ridiculous... Funny you should mention that as my 6th-level Sorcerer just got access to Ruathar. Of course, he got is from a mod, not from a Metaorg. Now if I can just find access to Dragonheart Mage, he will be very happy. The biggest problem to discouraging joining other regional metaorgs for the PrCs, when combined with discouraging people from sharing AR info, is that it discouraged people from playing characters with a life dedication. What I mean is a character who, say, had a life-long dream of becoming a Knight Who Says, "Ni" PrC. If that is his dream, he ought to be able to at least research how to become one. But the current mentality basically says, "if you don't get it randomly, you can't get it." Now that isn't 100% true. I got Ruathar because I went out of my way to play a mod whose blurb made it sound like the mod might just give access to Ruathar. Of course, the mod also gave access to Dracolexi and the blurb didn't give a clue to this. I think such mods are the exception rather than the rule.
Britt 12-06-06, 02:12 PM	If you want to have a life dedication to something, request a Special Mission. That is exactly what SMs are designed for, among other things. If you need access to one rules item and can't find it, SMs are for you (pending Triad approval).
JJeff 12-06-06, 08:22 PM	I gotta go with DuctShuiTengu here. Recently we just finished a mod that the best magic items were reserved for meta-org treasure hunters guild. If treasure hunter guild members had to do something special to receive these items I could understand, but they weren't!! We were under orders by the Perrenland Military to do this mission and as a Paladin I followed those orders. So did the rest of the party. We all took equal risk and yet at the end of the adventure, the treasure hunter meta-org member gets regional access to several really useful items and the rest of the party really didn't access to anything special...... What a load of BS that is with everyone taking equal risk, and yet we are denied access to items because we didn't join that meta-org. I was really really ****** with the AR of this Mod!!!! I know that mod. My players were all WTF after I gave them the AR and told them why the items were crossed off their AR. The next game I had about 3 applications into the Treasure hunters' guild and a host of other MOs. As for the rest of the party not getting anything special, unless you already have the access to what you find in the place you're supposed to find, it IS a relatively ok access... Of course you have to, potentially, get the AR entry which my players and I call "Iggy loves you so much it hurts". On the topic of Special Missions, most of the SMs I seee are more requests for access to certain restricted feats and PrCs or something. Of course there's those for personal reasons. Maybe even one for the building of an orphanage and such, but, what the hey, at least with Meta-Orgs, I can't foul up a mission and lose what I was planning to do.
trollbill 12-07-06, 10:25 AM	If you want to have a life dedication to something, request a Special Mission. That is exactly what SMs are designed for, among other things. If you need access to one rules item and can't find it, SMs are for you (pending Triad approval). I understand that is an option. But quite frankly, I would rather find some other method of getting what I want than bothering my already overworked Triad to create a mission just for me so I can have a PrC. If it's the only way to do it, fine. If it is possible to get it elsewhere, however, they don't need the extra load.
Frumpkis 12-07-06, 05:46 PM	Actually, the way I understand it (this is according to one of my triad guys in Zeif; things may work differently in different regions), special missions involve relatively little work by the triad. SM's can be written by anybody, not just the triad: usually you'll want to ask a local author/friend who has played with or DMed your character, and knows the character fairly well. SM's do not have to follow regular RPGA module regulations (so for example, they can be all-roleplaying and no-combat). They also can't give item access. All this means that SM's require much less proofreading and editing by the triad. Furthermore, unlike regular mods, SM's don't have to go through the regular hierarchy of being approved by your metaregion's Circle member; as a result, SM's can be released much more quickly than regular mods. Again though, this is just what my triad guy told me. YMMV.
SteveMND 12-19-06, 12:59 PM	It varies with the region, Frumpkis. Some regions (such as mine and yours, apparenly) handle Specials Missions like you mention, with the Triads approving the final SM, but with others actually writing it. Other regions, however, stipulate that all SMs must be written by their Triad, some regions don't allow SMs at all, and others have quasi-generic 'mini-missions' already written up that provide SM access to certain aspects of the campaign that are high in demand.