Monkey Grip [Archive] - Wizards Community

Monkey Grip [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shieldhart91
08-11-06, 06:02 PM Alright. So I'm a Level 3 Fighter, and I'm considering getting Monkey Grip. Now, a Large Greatsword does 3d6 damage instead of 2d6, but I still suffer a -2 to attack rolls for wielding it. Is it worth it? Right now, I have a +8 to hit with my Greatsword (+3 BAB, +1 Weapon Focus, +3 Str Mod, +1 Masterwork). Should I sacrifice one for the other?
Gyro_LC
08-11-06, 06:35 PM Alright. So I'm a Level 3 Fighter, and I'm considering getting Monkey Grip. Now, a Large Greatsword does 3d6 damage instead of 2d6, but I still suffer a -2 to attack rolls for wielding it. Is it worth it? Right now, I have a +8 to hit with my Greatsword (+3 BAB, +1 Weapon Focus, +3 Str Mod, +1 Masterwork). Should I sacrifice one for the other?

I have a barbarian with Monkey Grip and I rarely use it. The initial problem was that I couldn't find any large masterwork or magical weapons to build around. Instead I decided to go the adamantine greatsword route, and good luck finding access to a large adamantine greatsword.

If you want more damage, Power Attacking for 2 gives a slightly higher average than the extra d6 a large greatsword provides (4 vs 3.5).

If I had the option to rebuild the character, removing Monkey Grip would be my only change.
Puggle Halfwine
08-11-06, 06:36 PM Mathmatically, you're getting an average of 3.5 damage for a -2 to hit. If you power-attacked for two more, you'd be getting 4 more damage for a -2 to hit, you could turn that off if you were fighting something with monsterous AC, and you wouldn't have to worry about access (yes, you'll need access to buy Large sized weapons). IMHO not worth it, although it's a great roleplaying gimmick and can increase your max damage in situations where it matters, such as coupe de grace and very low AC monsters (since you can still power attack for full).
zoinks69
08-12-06, 03:02 AM Generally speaking, as spelled out above, probably not worth it. One exception I can think of is for dwarves -- dwarven waraxe wielded one-hand:

1d10 (average 5.5) becomes 2d8 (average 9.0). Two-hand power-attack for 2 is average 9.5. One-hand power attack for 2 is average 7.5. So you can keep a shield on and do 9.0 instead of 7.5. Naturally you'll come out ahead on any weapon when you compare one handed power attacking, but that's the beauty of the waraxe (or bastard sword if you have feats laying around) -- you can switch between those options.

Of couse, finding a large sized waraxe could be quite a trick.
paigeoliver
08-12-06, 03:05 AM I only see it as being worthwhile if you also have a way to become enlarged regularly. Our local group has a monkey grip fighter and we always make sure the wizard gets him enlarged right away because huge sized weapons do a lot more damage than large ones do.
kenobi65
08-12-06, 11:46 AM Of couse, finding a large sized waraxe could be quite a trick.

Indeed...isn't "large dwarven waraxe" a contradiction in terms? :)
Lupo
08-12-06, 11:59 AM Indeed...isn't "large dwarven waraxe" a contradiction in terms? :)

hm, i would tend to the opinion it is a redundancy :D

anyway, the problem with monkey grip and oversized weapon style is, aren't there any more interresting feats than those that "only" pump up the damage output a little bit, considering that more than 50% of any weapon damage of a frontliner doesn't come from the base weapon dice rolling what-so-ever.

ciao

martin m.
Shieldhart91
08-12-06, 01:24 PM I suppose Power Attack will cover me as far as that's concerned. Using a 2H weapon makes up for the rest of the damage, too. I'll just focus on mounted combat feats then =)

Thanks.
Iswald
08-13-06, 12:19 AM A large lance used with spirited charge may put monkey grip back into the mildly useful category.
Shieldhart91
08-13-06, 12:43 AM Not a lance...really? Monkey Grip isn't worth it, now that I'm looking at it. Extra damage isn't worth the loss of accuracy.
Iswald
08-13-06, 06:56 AM Not a lance...really?
Sure. Why not? Your lance changes from 1d8 to 2d6. Because you're doing triple damage with spirited charge, the minor difference increases. You take -2 for using a large weapon which cancels the +2 for charging. Your average damage increases by 5.5. The bonus is better than power attacking, but not really necessary for charging types.
Shieldhart91
08-13-06, 09:53 AM With Spirited Charge, two Levels of Cavalier, and Weapon Focus- I could see your point. But I could just carry a large lance, and buy potions of enlarge person =P Right? I'm not sure what the price is on those.
paigeoliver
08-13-06, 11:11 AM Enlarge person won't enlarge your mount.
Iswald
08-13-06, 12:01 PM With Spirited Charge, two Levels of Cavalier, and Weapon Focus- I could see your point. But I could just carry a large lance, and buy potions of enlarge person =P Right? I'm not sure what the price is on those.

But, you know, if you have a way to enlarge yourself and your mount on a regular basis, you're even better off with monkey grip! Your medium sized lance gets swapped out to a large lance which is then increased to a huge lance. Average weapon damage goes from 15.5 for medium to 21 for large and 31.5 for huge with spirited charge.

Of course, you're not too likely to find a large sized lance. Yet, you could start as a small creature and work your way up to wielding a large lance. That 21 average damage looks better when you start with only 10.5. :D

The tricky part is increasing the size of your mount. Paladins, rangers, druids, sorcerers and wizards are all able to share spells with their companion, special mount or familiar. Just find one that's suitable for a mount and cast enlarge on yourself and share it with your mount. Can't cast enlarge? Drink a potion. "The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect..." (DMG pg 229)

All parts of this post are factual, but the post shouldn't be taken too seriously.
Howie23
08-13-06, 02:20 PM [QUOTE=Iswald]The tricky part is increasing the size of your mount. Paladins, rangers, druids, sorcerers and wizards are all able to share spells with their companion, special mount or familiar. Just find one that's suitable for a mount and cast enlarge on yourself and share it with your mount. Can't cast enlarge? Drink a potion. "The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect..." (DMG pg 229)[QUOTE]

This has been over-discussed in the non-official forums. You should expect table variance on potions sharing with a companion/familiar/mount. Words to the wise, etc.

David
Iswald
08-13-06, 11:29 PM This has been over-discussed in the non-official forums. You should expect table variance on potions sharing with a companion/familiar/mount. Words to the wise, etc.

I have never heard sharing quaffed potions discussed before, only a mention once of using it. At first, I was skeptical, but, the way that potions work leaves little room for debate. At the very least, it makes much more sense than power attacking with a weapon that is tucked under your arm and you are somehow wielding with two hands.
Mommy was an Orc
08-13-06, 11:51 PM Sure. Why not? Your lance changes from 1d8 to 2d6. Because you're doing triple damage with spirited charge, the minor difference increases. You take -2 for using a large weapon which cancels the +2 for charging. Your average damage increases by 5.5. The bonus is better than power attacking, but not really necessary for charging types.

That's not actually true unless you're power attacking for full or full - 1. If you put 2 points of Power Attack on your lance, you do 1d8+4.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shieldhart91 08-11-06, 06:02 PM	Alright. So I'm a Level 3 Fighter, and I'm considering getting Monkey Grip. Now, a Large Greatsword does 3d6 damage instead of 2d6, but I still suffer a -2 to attack rolls for wielding it. Is it worth it? Right now, I have a +8 to hit with my Greatsword (+3 BAB, +1 Weapon Focus, +3 Str Mod, +1 Masterwork). Should I sacrifice one for the other?
Gyro_LC 08-11-06, 06:35 PM	Alright. So I'm a Level 3 Fighter, and I'm considering getting Monkey Grip. Now, a Large Greatsword does 3d6 damage instead of 2d6, but I still suffer a -2 to attack rolls for wielding it. Is it worth it? Right now, I have a +8 to hit with my Greatsword (+3 BAB, +1 Weapon Focus, +3 Str Mod, +1 Masterwork). Should I sacrifice one for the other? I have a barbarian with Monkey Grip and I rarely use it. The initial problem was that I couldn't find any large masterwork or magical weapons to build around. Instead I decided to go the adamantine greatsword route, and good luck finding access to a large adamantine greatsword. If you want more damage, Power Attacking for 2 gives a slightly higher average than the extra d6 a large greatsword provides (4 vs 3.5). If I had the option to rebuild the character, removing Monkey Grip would be my only change.
Puggle Halfwine 08-11-06, 06:36 PM	Mathmatically, you're getting an average of 3.5 damage for a -2 to hit. If you power-attacked for two more, you'd be getting 4 more damage for a -2 to hit, you could turn that off if you were fighting something with monsterous AC, and you wouldn't have to worry about access (yes, you'll need access to buy Large sized weapons). IMHO not worth it, although it's a great roleplaying gimmick and can increase your max damage in situations where it matters, such as coupe de grace and very low AC monsters (since you can still power attack for full).
zoinks69 08-12-06, 03:02 AM	Generally speaking, as spelled out above, probably not worth it. One exception I can think of is for dwarves -- dwarven waraxe wielded one-hand: 1d10 (average 5.5) becomes 2d8 (average 9.0). Two-hand power-attack for 2 is average 9.5. One-hand power attack for 2 is average 7.5. So you can keep a shield on and do 9.0 instead of 7.5. Naturally you'll come out ahead on any weapon when you compare one handed power attacking, but that's the beauty of the waraxe (or bastard sword if you have feats laying around) -- you can switch between those options. Of couse, finding a large sized waraxe could be quite a trick.
paigeoliver 08-12-06, 03:05 AM	I only see it as being worthwhile if you also have a way to become enlarged regularly. Our local group has a monkey grip fighter and we always make sure the wizard gets him enlarged right away because huge sized weapons do a lot more damage than large ones do.
kenobi65 08-12-06, 11:46 AM	Of couse, finding a large sized waraxe could be quite a trick. Indeed...isn't "large dwarven waraxe" a contradiction in terms? :)
Lupo 08-12-06, 11:59 AM	Indeed...isn't "large dwarven waraxe" a contradiction in terms? :) hm, i would tend to the opinion it is a redundancy :D anyway, the problem with monkey grip and oversized weapon style is, aren't there any more interresting feats than those that "only" pump up the damage output a little bit, considering that more than 50% of any weapon damage of a frontliner doesn't come from the base weapon dice rolling what-so-ever. ciao martin m.
Shieldhart91 08-12-06, 01:24 PM	I suppose Power Attack will cover me as far as that's concerned. Using a 2H weapon makes up for the rest of the damage, too. I'll just focus on mounted combat feats then =) Thanks.
Iswald 08-13-06, 12:19 AM	A large lance used with spirited charge may put monkey grip back into the mildly useful category.
Shieldhart91 08-13-06, 12:43 AM	Not a lance...really? Monkey Grip isn't worth it, now that I'm looking at it. Extra damage isn't worth the loss of accuracy.
Iswald 08-13-06, 06:56 AM	Not a lance...really? Sure. Why not? Your lance changes from 1d8 to 2d6. Because you're doing triple damage with spirited charge, the minor difference increases. You take -2 for using a large weapon which cancels the +2 for charging. Your average damage increases by 5.5. The bonus is better than power attacking, but not really necessary for charging types.
Shieldhart91 08-13-06, 09:53 AM	With Spirited Charge, two Levels of Cavalier, and Weapon Focus- I could see your point. But I could just carry a large lance, and buy potions of enlarge person =P Right? I'm not sure what the price is on those.
paigeoliver 08-13-06, 11:11 AM	Enlarge person won't enlarge your mount.
Iswald 08-13-06, 12:01 PM	With Spirited Charge, two Levels of Cavalier, and Weapon Focus- I could see your point. But I could just carry a large lance, and buy potions of enlarge person =P Right? I'm not sure what the price is on those. But, you know, if you have a way to enlarge yourself and your mount on a regular basis, you're even better off with monkey grip! Your medium sized lance gets swapped out to a large lance which is then increased to a huge lance. Average weapon damage goes from 15.5 for medium to 21 for large and 31.5 for huge with spirited charge. Of course, you're not too likely to find a large sized lance. Yet, you could start as a small creature and work your way up to wielding a large lance. That 21 average damage looks better when you start with only 10.5. :D The tricky part is increasing the size of your mount. Paladins, rangers, druids, sorcerers and wizards are all able to share spells with their companion, special mount or familiar. Just find one that's suitable for a mount and cast enlarge on yourself and share it with your mount. Can't cast enlarge? Drink a potion. "The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect..." (DMG pg 229) All parts of this post are factual, but the post shouldn't be taken too seriously.
Howie23 08-13-06, 02:20 PM	[QUOTE=Iswald]The tricky part is increasing the size of your mount. Paladins, rangers, druids, sorcerers and wizards are all able to share spells with their companion, special mount or familiar. Just find one that's suitable for a mount and cast enlarge on yourself and share it with your mount. Can't cast enlarge? Drink a potion. "The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect..." (DMG pg 229)[QUOTE] This has been over-discussed in the non-official forums. You should expect table variance on potions sharing with a companion/familiar/mount. Words to the wise, etc. David
Iswald 08-13-06, 11:29 PM	This has been over-discussed in the non-official forums. You should expect table variance on potions sharing with a companion/familiar/mount. Words to the wise, etc. I have never heard sharing quaffed potions discussed before, only a mention once of using it. At first, I was skeptical, but, the way that potions work leaves little room for debate. At the very least, it makes much more sense than power attacking with a weapon that is tucked under your arm and you are somehow wielding with two hands.
Mommy was an Orc 08-13-06, 11:51 PM	Sure. Why not? Your lance changes from 1d8 to 2d6. Because you're doing triple damage with spirited charge, the minor difference increases. You take -2 for using a large weapon which cancels the +2 for charging. Your average damage increases by 5.5. The bonus is better than power attacking, but not really necessary for charging types. That's not actually true unless you're power attacking for full or full - 1. If you put 2 points of Power Attack on your lance, you do 1d8+4.