Post/Author/DateTime	Post
myshkingfh 08-14-07, 02:38 PM	Why is everything either a monkey or cheese? Can't you guys come up with some new copy? I feel like I'm watching a Robin Williams routine from 1983. I've heard it so many times that it's driving me crazy! Nanoo Nanoo Cheese Monkeys! PS. It's not clever if you call them brie apes or something like that either. Move on please.
Jay_Ibero_911 08-14-07, 02:57 PM	Why is everything either a monkey or cheese? Can't you guys come up with some new copy? I feel like I'm watching a Robin Williams routine from 1983. I've heard it so many times that it's driving me crazy! Nanoo Nanoo Cheese Monkeys! PS. It's not clever if you call them brie apes or something like that either. Move on please. So do you have any ideas for a replacement that is both easily recongized and understood AND original?
myshkingfh 08-14-07, 03:16 PM	How about "I don't like the way he plays" or "She has built a powerful character, but it's improbable and uninteresting" or "I think that people who play Pious Templars in Living Greyhawk are choosing the class for combat enhancement and conveniently overlooking the class's dedication to a particular temple" or "retraining out of a feat that fits your character concept in favor of one that lets you take Pious Templar for mettle is a poor role playing decision?" Or you're a smart guy, how about you come up with something?
control freak 08-14-07, 03:26 PM	its like saying why do people say AFK or LOL or BRB because it saves time:D
Grantor 08-14-07, 03:31 PM	How about "I don't like the way he plays" or... It seems to me that you are complaining that English (and most other spoken languages) develop slang and they become a precise and terse way of saying an often repeated piece of information. When people have to say the same thing over and over, it is very rare for them to attempt to say the same thing in different ways each time. That's what writers get paid to do, and last I checked there was no cheque for offering comments on this forum. While it is monotonous, repeated slang sure does read faster. And I shudder at the thought of grammar-challenged people attempting to form more complex sentences...
myshkingfh 08-14-07, 04:03 PM	While it is monotonous, repeated slang sure does read faster. And I shudder at the thought of grammar-challenged people attempting to form more complex sentences... Might be good for 'em... I don't think it's slang so much as it's a verbal crutch that allows the writing to make some undefined negative statement about something. What does "cheese" tell me? Just that you don't like it. Why not? Give me something to go on. And with slang there's usually a lot of slangy synonyms that spare us from hearing the same piece of inanity over and over again. It's cool, it's rad, it's awesome, it's dope, it's the bomb, it's wicked etc. All I read around here is cheese and monkey (well, sometimes weasel) Calling it cheese just tells me that you can write the same thing everyone else can write. It doesn't express anything on its own. Monkey conveys even less of a message. Best I can tell, a monkey is someone who likes cheese. What the heck does that tell me? And if that's really what it means, shouldn't it be mouse or French guy? Monkeys like bananas.
Jay_Ibero_911 08-14-07, 04:41 PM	Might be good for 'em... I don't think it's slang so much as it's a verbal crutch that allows the writing to make some undefined negative statement about something. What does "cheese" tell me? Just that you don't like it. Why not? Give me something to go on. And with slang there's usually a lot of slangy synonyms that spare us from hearing the same piece of inanity over and over again. It's cool, it's rad, it's awesome, it's dope, it's the bomb, it's wicked etc. All I read around here is cheese and monkey (well, sometimes weasel) Calling it cheese just tells me that you can write the same thing everyone else can write. It doesn't express anything on its own. Monkey conveys even less of a message. Best I can tell, a monkey is someone who likes cheese. What the heck does that tell me? And if that's really what it means, shouldn't it be mouse or French guy? Monkeys like bananas. Cheese: In general, anything that is unusually powerful at what it does, typically by combining many individual obscure rules items for massive synergies with little flavor or RP reason to do so. Sometimes achieved by bending or even breaking the intent of the rules to benefit by using a twisted interpretation of poorly written rules. Monkey: Usually used following a term for whatever a character does best. Trip Monkey, Skill Monkey, Blast Monkey, Grapple Monkey, etc... Anyone have a drastically different definition of these terms, or is this how they are understood more or less by everyone here?
Arvagor 08-14-07, 05:29 PM	Monkey: Usually used following a term for whatever a character does best. Trip Monkey, Skill Monkey, Blast Monkey, Grapple Monkey, etc...Nope; such terminology is not limited to gaming circles, and probably did not originate there either -- see "code monkey" for example (a term I heard long before I got into gaming...)
Jay_Ibero_911 08-14-07, 05:34 PM	Nope; such terminology is not limited to gaming circles, and probably did not originate there either -- see "code monkey" for example (a term I heard long before I got into gaming...) Well obviously we are talking context specific. Many words have many varrying meanings that are dependant on the context of their use. If you see someone refer to their character as a "Skill Monkey" than it is clear that they mean that their character is designed to get lots and lots of skill points and max out as many skills as possible, but this takes considerably more time to say or type.
CSHunt68 08-14-07, 05:44 PM	Cheese: In general, anything that is unusually powerful at what it does, typically by combining many individual obscure rules items for massive synergies with little flavor or RP reason to do so. Sometimes achieved by bending or even breaking the intent of the rules to benefit by using a twisted interpretation of poorly written rules. Monkey: Usually used following a term for whatever a character does best. Trip Monkey, Skill Monkey, Blast Monkey, Grapple Monkey, etc... Anyone have a drastically different definition of these terms, or is this how they are understood more or less by everyone here? Nope, that sums it up. Works for me.
Grantor 08-14-07, 06:41 PM	Might be good for 'em... I don't think it's slang so much as it's a verbal crutch that allows the writing to make some undefined negative statement about something. What does "cheese" tell me? It is slang. Slang words have very specific definitions (as seen in previous posts for these two words). You may not understand the slang words, but they do have specific usage. Best I can tell, a monkey is someone who likes cheese. What the heck does that tell me? And if that's really what it means, shouldn't it be mouse or French guy? Monkeys like bananas. Being literal, of course, is not the best way to find the meaning behind slang usage. For the most common usage, one could either ask what is meant, or do research. Cheese on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheese#Cheese_in_language) (not the best source for our Gamer-specific usage) Monkey (as slang) on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_(slang))[ I have tried for years to get people to talk or write differently than they do. Word usage in a way I thought of as "incorrect" drove me crazy. But, hey, language is an evolving thing. The word "Good" has become the adverb of choice, as in "She cooks good", when it is officially an adjective. People talk the way they talk and the two goals of most people are: make myself understood, and keep people from looking at me funny. Using commonly understood terms fulfills both of these goals. Until people take the goal of "sound particularly erudite" I don't think exortations to spell, write and talk better are going to have 'traction'. One last point. I've met a lot of people. I did customer service in college. My experience is that most people are opinionated idiots and unthoughtful bumblers and don't really care what others think of them. Fortunately, there is a mechanism to keep the idiocy away. I ignore it. A pychological technique that was developed eons ago. Works wonders!
clannagh 08-14-07, 06:59 PM	Actually I think monkey is a good descriptive term of the player type ... builds a pre-planned character with everything calculated beforehand and often has certian preplanned "tricks" the character will always use in set situations .. just like a trained monkey.
Cardinal Teplin 08-14-07, 06:59 PM	It seems to me that you are complaining that English (and most other spoken languages) develop slang and they become a precise and terse way of saying an often repeated piece of information. It seems to me that he's complaining that the same information is being repeated over and over again. It's a fair enough point. When people have to say the same thing over and over, it is very rare for them to attempt to say the same thing in different ways each time. It's not that rare. That's clear simply from reading these boards. People do express themselves in different ways. There's nothing wrong with some slang, but you need to be aware that if you're building a cheesy monkey of some kind, you're not describing a terribly original concept for a character... I think that's a shame, because people do put a lot of work into their characters, and I suspect they are being reduced to stats in part becuase its easier and less embarassing to talk about them that way.
Timlagor 08-14-07, 09:42 PM	Stats are also something that it's a lot easier for others to contribute advice on and take ideas from for themselves. Add in the injunction against giving Spoilers for mods you've played and it's not surprising that talks about characters is generally lacking for LG.
solbergb 08-14-07, 10:21 PM	We talk about characters a lot. Just not on message boards much, because digressions into how Burke has matured over the years much faster than a human would have wheras Mogoom is pretty much emotionally frozen in the same place he was when he started adventuring is generally offtopic for most discussion boards. Also it is easier to talk about characters and things they did/saw/encountered when you've checked that others in the conversation have played a given adventure before nattering away. Sometimes bits and pieces make it onto the boards, often in context of why a "build" changed direction based on play or to illustrate why a given rules element may seem strong or weak, but is actually different from perceived for the right character, blah blah. If your view of D&D is just the boards though, you get a pretty skewed view of the experience. A lot goes on that isn't even visible to the other players at the table, since it's going on in the head of the player. A lot of strange actions by PC's are the result of the player interpreting what is going on through the filter of his characer's worldview and drawing different conclusions about the right thing to do than everyone else might expect. A recent example of that kind of thing was during a complicated, confusing fight, a character nearly died because she decided to pick up her stunned cat familiar and took a large sneak attack at just the wrong time from an AOO. She thought she was safe because she'd lost track of one of the stealthy opponents and even though nobody was attacking her cat, she couldn't just LEAVE it there while there were other visible threats.... Most characters I've played with would have left the cat there and not accidenly triggered the AOO. Some would have remembered there was an enemy unaccounted for and been more cautious, others might have just figured the cat was fine since all visible enemies were either temporarily incapacitad or busy fighting other people. Some would have figured it was safer lying there stunned and harmless than it would be near her too.... I didn't learn what was going through her head though until after the game when we chatted about it. At the time, I just noticed that she'd given my bad guys a real chance of killing her, when I'd been figuring that she'd probably just get mauled by the latest attempt of the bad guys to shut down one of the party gnomes....
Frumpkis 08-15-07, 04:43 AM	One of my characters is a healing/support cleric. When I was first creating him and figuring out what prestige classes I might want him to go into, I specifically wanted to avoid following the masses and using the honey-glazed strawberry-rhubarb pie that is Radiant Servant of Pelor. Thus, I decided to go with Lendor as my deity. I took the Knowledge domain, and made my PC a knowledge black-throated blue warbler.
Pint_Glass_Crusader 08-15-07, 09:02 AM	Being the most recent poster to use "Monkey" in their post title, I feel mildly offended... however, in future if you want me to entitle my post: "Dealing with those players who persist in bringing their own player's knowledge and experience to bear, in a fantasy scenario designed to exhibit the knowledge and experience of an individually designed avatar, whose background and level of previous education and knowledge have been predetermined by the expenditure of points in a fixed scale and by the application of a randomly determined number, obtained by tumbling a polyhedron of varying scale, yet equal to the range of the number, which is required for determination, which may further be modified by another number based on detrmining factors decided upon by an independant arbitrator." You can get stuffed... I'll just put "Dealing with Meta-Game Monkeys". That is all...
myshkingfh 08-15-07, 09:27 AM	...and using the honey-glazed strawberry-rhubarb pie that is Radiant Servant of Pelor. Thus, I decided to go with Lendor as my deity. I took the Knowledge domain, and made my PC a knowledge black-throated blue warbler. Genius!
myshkingfh 08-15-07, 09:28 AM	Being the most recent poster to use "Monkey" in their post title, I feel mildly offended... however, in future if you want me to entitle my post: "Dealing with those players who persist in bringing their own player's knowledge and experience to bear, in a fantasy scenario designed to exhibit the knowledge and experience of an individually designed avatar, whose background and level of previous education and knowledge have been predetermined by the expenditure of points in a fixed scale and by the application of a randomly determined number, obtained by tumbling a polyhedron of varying scale, yet equal to the range of the number, which is required for determination, which may further be modified by another number based on detrmining factors decided upon by an independant arbitrator." No, how about just "dealing with metagamers"? Using Jay's learned treatise on the meaning of the term monkey, your title means "Dealing with someone who is really good at metagaming," which isn't even your intent. I read that thread when it came out. What you were trying to say, it seems to me, was "dealing with someone who is a really blantant and annoying metagamer" which is the opposite of the apparently accepted definition. I don't object to slang, I object to the senseless repition of the same two bits of slang over and over again, when they aren't even good or clever.
LachlarlanIII 08-15-07, 09:41 AM	Why is everything either a monkey or cheese? Can't you guys come up with some new copy? I feel like I'm watching a Robin Williams routine from 1983. I've heard it so many times that it's driving me crazy! Nanoo Nanoo Cheese Monkeys! PS. It's not clever if you call them brie apes or something like that either. Move on please. I agree, they shall henceforth be referred to as Pretzel Ninjas!
CSHunt68 08-15-07, 09:54 AM	I agree, they shall henceforth be referred to as Pretzel Ninjas! Naw, monkeys works much better. Or even cheese-monkeys. But, good luck with that. ;)
_metz_ 08-15-07, 11:23 AM	I don't get why he wants us to come up with something different. Then we will be just using a different form of slang, one which is even harder to identify the source of.
myshkingfh 08-15-07, 12:16 PM	I don't care about the source, I care about the repitition and the inanity. Pint Glass's thread is an excellent example. The title is all "metagame monkey" which tells us nothing useful, and then you get inside and have a series of helpful and thoughtful posts about important issues, none (or few) of which are about monkeys and cheese. If you're using those terms, you're trying to be funny, and you're not funny. It's like seeing the same knock-knock joke for the 50,000th time. If I go to a stand up comedy show and someone busts out with "why did the chicken cross the road," that guy's getting booed.
CSHunt68 08-15-07, 02:00 PM	I don't care about the source, I care about the repitition and the inanity. Pint Glass's thread is an excellent example. The title is all "metagame monkey" which tells us nothing useful, and then you get inside and have a series of helpful and thoughtful posts about important issues, none (or few) of which are about monkeys and cheese. If you're using those terms, you're trying to be funny, and you're not funny. It's like seeing the same knock-knock joke for the 50,000th time. If I go to a stand up comedy show and someone busts out with "why did the chicken cross the road," that guy's getting booed. Huh? Who's trying to be funny? It works. People understand what it means - well, MOST people. Move along, bad monkey.
Potmos 08-15-07, 03:56 PM	I don't care about the source, I care about the repitition and the inanity. You're making a comment about inanity and repetition on an internet-based discussion forum? What else was the internet designed for, other than inane and repetitious discussions? (oh, and porn) :rolleyes: Just be thankful that the term 'munchkin' has fallen into disuse. That one used to drive my wife and I completely nuts, and bothered me far more than monkey and cheese do. Back in our LC days, every conversation about peoples' characters resulted in people calling each other 'munchkins'. You'd think it was set in the land of Oz instead of Faerun. Potmos
myshkingfh 08-15-07, 04:23 PM	Just be thankful that the term 'munchkin' has fallen into disuse. That's a good point. But let's hasten cheese monkeys out the door as well.
LachlarlanIII 08-15-07, 04:37 PM	That's a good point. But let's hasten cheese monkeys out the door as well. I agree. Why aren't we calling them Pretzel Ninjas yet?;)
KarmaInferno 08-15-07, 05:57 PM	Any time you get something that is repeated a lot, you will find that people will tend to shorten it. If it's not "Monkey" or "cheese" it'll be something else. -karma
Cardinal Teplin 08-15-07, 06:13 PM	Monkeys and cheese have got the same stage as 'munchkin' did. Language evolves, and the terms simply don't have any descriptive power any more. A 'metagamer' and a 'metagaming monkey' are used interchangeably - the word monkey doesn't add anything. At least munchkin conveyed a sense of disapproval...
Redfist 08-15-07, 07:49 PM	At least munchkin conveyed a sense of disapproval... For some people, D&D is a ROLEplaying game. For others, it is a ROLLplaying game. Neither perspective is "wrong". I see nothing wrong with people who enjoy the tactical part of the game more than other parts, just like I see nothing wrong who enjoy the role-playing more than the tactical part. I would hope we, as a gaming society, would reduce the # of reasons to dissaprove of other gamers. *shrug* I personally hope no disapproval becomes attached to "cheese" or "monkey" as it did with "munchkin" which I believe the common perception was that of disapproval of a gamer-type who valued the arms race beyond any recognition of fantasy-reality. --Gordon
LGMoses 08-16-07, 02:21 PM	well you see, cheeseis an instituted game mechanic (such as a race, feat, skill, etc.) that is known/believed to be overpowered. I'm not too familiar with monkies. Wouldn't that be someone who habitually uses cheese? A min/maxeris someone who minimizes their spending in "unnecessary" areas or ability scores to make their necessary ones maxed out. This often results in 20 str wood elfs with 6 int or 20 int grey elves with low str or watever. This usually means rays of enfeeblement can offline a grey elf wiz, or ray of stupidity or watever can drop the str 20 wood elf. Powergaming is the application of min/maxing, cheese, and a "knowledge" of the rules to make a character as powerful as possible with as little penalty as possible. Usually this involves the abuse of rules in a way they were not intended or what I refer to as a "colorful" interpretation of the rules. These are my definitions of these terms which I hear so casually flung about on this board.
Cardinal Teplin 08-16-07, 07:14 PM	For some people, D&D is a ROLEplaying game. For others, it is a ROLLplaying game. Ak - Nonsense. Noone is walking around thinking of themselves as a rollplayer. In practice, it's a label you pin on someone else. If you must have a distinction between the two, and I don't for a moment think players do in fact usefully divide into two such groups, it might be better as contrasting people who like creating a group of fictional personalities versus those who like overcoming challenges as a group of players. I think they're both fun, and not particularly separable. It's almost impossible to have even a fictional personality face a challenge without having that personality express itself in the way it attempts to solve those problems, and it's almost impossible to continually solve problems without evolving at the very least a distinctive personal style or persona that varies from character to character. But you're missing the point. Munchkin actually had an overtone that meant something, whether or not you agreed with the sentiment or not, while 'monkey' really does now mean bog all. It's a hangover from when coders used to refer to eachother as monkies, but it's terribly dated, and it's probably time we, as a community, moved on. just like the programmers are moving on. I bear no particular ill-will to those who still enjoy using it, but it just doesn't convey any useful information or flavour to me. To be fair, cheese still means more or less what munchkin did. Someone who uses a set of rules options that I would not, given the same circumstances, due to the abusive nature of the result. It refers to the rules option, rather than the person choosing the rules option, but it's basically the same situation and sentiment. There is nothing wrong with slang, or any other form of shorthand, as long as it really is a short form of a more complicated idea, rather than a placeholder for a lack of one.
Redfist 08-16-07, 10:53 PM	Ak - Nonsense. Noone is walking around thinking of themselves as a rollplayer. In practice, it's a label you pin on someone else. I fully disagree. I know plenty of people who play D&D because of the tactical nature of the combats. That's their 80% reason for playing. It doesn't mean that they don't also enjoy the role-playing aspect (alternate personalty, etc.) but it is the major draw. I also know people who are the opposite. They enjoy the role-playing aspect and put up with the tactical parts. Put another way, there are some who if dice/combat weren't involved - wouldn't play. There are others would wouldn't play if it were just dice/combat.