Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bob_the_Theurge 02-02-07, 12:07 PM	Another thread mentions it in a tertiary fashion, but here's a thought on something I've seen a number of times that while "legal", makes for a bad experience especially at lower levels: monsters in the module with "abilities" that the players are (if all are at APL) unlikely to be carrying a counter for. A few examples: Intro mods with creatures that do, for example, 2d6+8 damage on a hit; this means instant one-shot KO to anything the critter hits and worse, means 4d6+16 on a crit, which is -10hp unsurvivable for anything other than a raging Barbarian or massive-Con fighter unless the DM rolls all 1's. Allips or other incorporeal undead at APL 2 or lower; while technically the players have magic weapon spells available (presuming they memorize them and didn't burn them for healing in an earlier same-day fight, which is also a less than 50% chance), the duration is low and their defense against such creatures are equally low. I've actually heard that somewhere some triad put an incorporeal undead into an intro module, and justified it by giving players a single scroll of magic weapon (not oil or potion, a scroll) right before the fight. I consider the two examples above treading perilously close to writing an "auto-kill" encounter. Thoughts? Other creatures that fall into this mold?
Britt 02-02-07, 12:12 PM	The intro mod you're talking about had an allip, which can't kill you. You're given a scroll of magic weapon, warned about the creature and given time to prepare, and have the ability to flee if you wish.
Alpha_Nerd 02-02-07, 12:16 PM	I fought an Allip at an APL 1 table. I don't remember if it was an intro or not. We actually got close to killing it since the cleric had a magic weapon prepped. I raged with my 16 str barbarian and almost got it doing 1d8+8 two-handing my +1 warhammer. Unfortunately it got a couple good hits and my Wisdom dropped like a bad habit. Yeah that was pretty silly. EDIT: If we're talking about the same module we were VERY suprised when the rest of the table figured out they could flee. The box text before the encounter heavily suggests you can not.
TheBlackFlail 02-02-07, 12:24 PM	Level draining monsters at APL 2 (which often includes level 1 characters). 1 hit on a lvl 1 (or two on a lvl 2, some even have two attacks), and they are dead, dead, dead; no save, no chance to stabilize, hit points don't matter...
Bob_the_Theurge 02-02-07, 12:52 PM	The intro mod you're talking about had an allip, which can't kill you. You're given a scroll of magic weapon, warned about the creature and given time to prepare, and have the ability to flee if you wish. An Allip does, however, tend to leave newly-created characters at single-digit or less Wisdom scores, since it does Drain and not Damage. A character with 0 wisdom's in a coma. Not helpful. They're as good as removed from play without a spell to fix it. And the person who played it informed me that the only provision in the mod for purchasing Restoration required that they deliberately let themselves get beat in an earlier fight. I still think it's foul.
LachlarlanIII 02-02-07, 12:55 PM	The intro mod you're talking about had an allip, which can't kill you. You're given a scroll of magic weapon, warned about the creature and given time to prepare, and have the ability to flee if you wish. The mod I was speaking of in my other thread wasn't an Intro mod at all.
Bob_the_Theurge 02-02-07, 01:01 PM	Level draining monsters at APL 2 (which often includes level 1 characters). 1 hit on a lvl 1 (or two on a lvl 2, some even have two attacks), and they are dead, dead, dead; no save, no chance to stabilize, hit points don't matter... Good point, I'd forgotten about those; I've seen a Vampire that called wolves to help it in an APL 4 module before. I've also seen a DM mis-run an encounter with a Vampire critter that had multiple attacks, trying to claim it could level drain on each hit (most creatures, including the Vampire template, that have a level drain ability are limited to only using it once per round to prevent DM's from cheesing out a monster that can take a 14th level character out by draining 2 levels a hit, 7 times in one round). And I hate having to step out of character to make those kinds of obejctions, too. :(
KarmaInferno 02-02-07, 01:22 PM	I think the tone of LG was pretty much set at the very beginning by having a were-creature in one of the three campaign premiere mods. Dealing with that when EVERYONE was level one and many folks were unfamiliar with 3.0 rules was no picnic. Oddly, we haven't seen many Xvarts since then, though. And I never did find out what that magical key was for. -karma
copper_wyrmling 02-02-07, 02:00 PM	My short list: -Vampire spawn and any incorporeals at APL 2 -Full vampires at APL 4 (okay if some warning is given) -Spectres at APL 4 (not okay even with warning; their rapid create spawn is too dangerous) -L5 wizards with Fireball at APL 2 -Hezrous at APL 8 (caster level 13 Blasphemy...) -HD advanced half-fiends that don't have Blasphemy crossed off for some reason, at the higher APLs (I've seen CL29 Blasphemy available at APL 14) -Animated objects with very high hardness at any APL up to about 8; it's really silly that their CR is hardness-independent
bitznarf 02-02-07, 02:24 PM	Ah.. Blasphemy and Holy Word. I've heard of some regions that have a truce between the players and the writers/judges. You don't holy word, we don't blasphemy. In my gaming area its not a problem, see, we don't really know what high level clerics are. Every once in a while we may see someone drift through that *might* be a high level cleric, but never sticks around long enough to check.
UMiskatonic 02-02-07, 04:18 PM	Personally, I think the ripest area for abuse is the advancing monster sections. Abberations, animals, plants, and undead all become really nasty when they are advanced. Templated, they can become even worse, especially with the templates that become cooler with HD, like fiendish or celestial. Non-associated class levels can be abused as well. Writers, please be careful with those....
bitznarf 02-02-07, 04:43 PM	pseudo-natural dire weasels... *shudders*
Mortepierre 02-02-07, 05:04 PM	tauric drow/displacer beasts with (spellcasting) class levels at APL4 50% miss chance may not look like such a bad thing but, believe me, it stinks when your players have a string of bad luck with their dices (and the monsters don't with their hit rolls :surrender ) Yes, I know, the PC could flee (and did.. but some had to die.. er.. stay behind to buy them time)
_metz_ 02-02-07, 06:28 PM	Babaus, three at APL 6 is extremely deadly. There is an example of one creature, on its own, is CR 6, if you have more than one, its actually more powerful than the EL suggests. Same with some random template additions...
Haro 02-02-07, 06:39 PM	pseudo-natural dire weasels... *shudders* Wow, that's in a module? That's my Conjurer/Alienist's trick! Add Sudden Empower on top of 1d4+1 of them and pull up a deckchair and watch the little blighters break most encounters... Joe
Japangirl 02-02-07, 06:42 PM	Any monster in terrain that hampers you but helps/doesn't hamper it at all. For example; ooze mephit mobs in mushroom caves, demons who can see normally but your vision is limited to 60 ft, sorcerous ghosts who are not affected by wild magic but you are . . . Terrain is almost never taken into proper consideration in increasing CRs of monsters. This needs to change, because it turns tough encounters into near-TPKs or actual TPKs.
bitznarf 02-02-07, 06:47 PM	Any monster in terrain that hampers you but helps/doesn't hamper it at all. For example; ooze mephit mobs in mushroom caves, demons who can see normally but your vision is limited to 60 ft, sorcerous ghosts who are not affected by wild magic but you are . . . Terrain is almost never taken into proper consideration in increasing CRs of monsters. This needs to change, because it turns tough encounters into near-TPKs or actual TPKs. Isn't that supposed to be taken into account for the actual EL? Things like pre-buffed minions, terrain, all that affects the EL rather then the CR I thought.
Japangirl 02-02-07, 06:47 PM	Isn't that supposed to be taken into account for the actual EL? Things like pre-buffed minions, terrain, all that effects the EL rather then the CR I thought. Er yeah, the ELs of encounters. And yes, it's *supposed* to be taken into consideration. It most often isn't.
bitznarf 02-02-07, 06:52 PM	Speaking of terrain and pre-buffs, how about a Lvl 3?4? Goblin druid with Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack, and a Worg, prebuffed with Bulls strength, on an open field, in an *intro* mod. :twitch: :eek:
copper_wyrmling 02-02-07, 06:56 PM	sorcerous ghosts who are not affected by wild magic but you are . . . Wait, there are wild magic fields in a mod? Actual wild magic fields? I need to travel to the Bandit Kingdoms... The worst set of circumstances I saw was an entire dungeon that was under a permanent undispellable Silence field that only applied to the PCs. There was a curse you could get that allowed you to ignore the Silence, but it involved being marked by Vecna, and there was no way I could IC justify my Good-aligned sacred exorcist (who had really annoyed Vecna in an earlier module) deliberately failing her save. Since it was a Will save to negate, that meant she went through the entire module Silenced. When you're a fourteenth-level primary spellcaster, it's very weird to be restricted to the three L1-3 spells you can cast using your lesser rod of silent spell. It didn't help that we were an all-caster party and I had the only silent spell metamagic rod. My cleric basically played fighter for the entire mod, which without Divine Power was an interesting experience (fortunately her AC buffs were long-lasting enough that she still had most of them, and Brambles could be cast Silent, but she still killed things much more slowly than normal).
Japangirl 02-02-07, 07:05 PM	Well, the wild magic zone was in the Yeomanry actually. So no BK travel to get that experience. My rogue would LOVE a Silenced zone. Free move silently checks? Very very happy times.
solbergb 02-02-07, 08:22 PM	Riddle in the Dust had wild magic through much of it. As did the forgettable Turns of the Spiral metaregional module. Early formative experiences for my Sorceress. although accidently giving temp hitpoints to somebody when doing a magic missile allowed her to figure out how to use telekenesis to give herself temp hitpoints. (actually it's a variant of Greater Magic Weapon, applied to herself, but that's a long story involving the magical traditions that she tinkered with to fit the kind of magic she likes doing...but it looks to outsiders like her wounds just heal really fast until the temp hitpoints run out. Kind of "mending contingency for humans")
Mommy was an Orc 02-02-07, 08:41 PM	Monsters with tweaked point buy. When a monster has an 18 in a stat, they're a higher CR than when they'd normally start off with a 15. That's +2 to hit/+3 damage if it is in Strength. Sure, maybe they don't have as many skill points or are charismatic as the normal creature. That's not usually a big deal. If you're using the CR table, you're allowed to use 10s or the Elite system. Encounters with way too much equipment - this is my personal pet peeve on a few levels: Equipment raises CR. What exactly are the characters doing with this treasure - in a couple of recent mods, our characters got more than quadruple APL treasure in the form of magic items. What, did we get mugged on the road at the end of the mod? It usually is used to deal with known issues - such as non-associated character levels or tweaked point buy that would result in deaths. Sure, I, the author, killed you, but here's a free Raise Dead to make you feel better.
Maesto 02-02-07, 10:34 PM	The ones that I don't like are the Green(?) hag at APL 2. Whichever one is CR 5, really shouldn't be facing an APL 2 table. The other one I don't like is the bulette at APL 4. Sure, it's not as bad as some of the others, but it certainly is a tough fight. Jolyon
Simpi 02-02-07, 11:17 PM	Terrain is almost never taken into proper consideration in increasing CRs of monsters. This needs to change, because it turns tough encounters into near-TPKs or actual TPKs. But remember that monsters CR can include their usual terrain in it. For example, one person once came to complain to me that "Your module had sharks and we had to fight them underwater and it had no EL adjustment. That sucked". Well boohoo, does he think that he should face sharks in dry land? But what monster should not be present? Well, Tendriculous and Yugoloth (enjoy your instakill cloudkill) on APL4 come to mind. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
Eric Anondson 02-03-07, 12:09 AM	Any monster in terrain that hampers you but helps/doesn't hamper it at all.I wrote an adventure a couple years back that broke out the constricted movement rules from DMG2. Big two-handed weapon power attackers and archers take it badly. It had PCs crawl into a meenlock warren (Castle Mukos) several hundred feet deep. 2 feet high, 2 feet wide. I did adjust the EL for this, but apparently not enough because I caught holy heck from some players about it. There were enough tools on the surface for inappropriately equipped PCs to equip appropriately (spears, daggers, and crossbows; could remove all but light armor). But many groups didn't think to withdraw and get the right tools sitting on the ground outside the entrance to below, instead of pushing on with their heavy armor, greataxes, bows, etc. The meenlocks sniped with 1d4 Wis damage (rend mind ability) from just enough distance while the PCs relentlessly crawled to the metamorphis chamber. Some players with mild claustrophobia weren't appreciative either. At the premier, a few PCs actually were caught and had begun meenlock transformation.:88E: They were saved by the generous aid of Thingizzard.:angelhide Lesson learned? Don't put the entire party through a sense of exagerated helplessness.:evillaugh A few thought the whole thing was a brilliant event to push players to get their PC to step outside its box and think about the challenge that has never been encountered before... others I heard yelling in outrage from across the hotel. :hides: So for me, now, I put forth an extra effort to calculate for the environment and terrain. Especially since I love to use it.
Bob_the_Theurge 02-03-07, 02:22 AM	An Allip does, however, tend to leave newly-created characters at single-digit or less Wisdom scores, since it does Drain and not Damage. A character with 0 wisdom's in a coma. Not helpful. They're as good as removed from play without a spell to fix it. And the person who played it informed me that the only provision in the mod for purchasing Restoration required that they deliberately let themselves get beat in an earlier fight. I still think it's foul. I've gone over this again, checking the Allip just to be sure. As a 4 HD undead with +2 turn resistance, it is functionally unturnable - even on a max roll. The attack is a +3 incorporeal touch that does 1d4 Wisdom Drain. Not damage, drain. A character with 0 Wisdom, while not technically "dead", is functionally as good as out of the campaign absent someone willing to cast Restoration on them before the end of the module. The counter - the handing of a single scroll - is to give the players a single weapon that has a 50% chance of hitting. They then must chew through the Allip's 26 HP (plus the 5 temporary hp it gets every time it drains someone) in 10 rounds before the weapon expires. Presuming that the Allip gets the drop on them (as seems likely given that it has Improved Initiative), the Allip starts with 31 HP. Over the course of a 5-round battle, it likely has 51 HP that the players are expected to chew through in 5 swings, presuming that every swing connects through the 50% miss chance. Every round that the combat goes on, the Allip likely gets 5 more temporary HP. Do I really need to point out how bloody unlikely it is to see players do that kind of damage that quickly through a single weapon and 50% miss chance, especially when a fighter capable of doing it will likely fall into a coma on round 3? The players also have to get through the Will Save in order to battle it at all. With 30 ft of perfect flight and incorporeality, nothing except a 1st-level Barbarian could hope to outrun it to actually leave the battle. There's no way this thing should be in an intro mod. Even if you can claim it's not a recipe for a TPK, it's a recipe for brand new LG players winding up with a character who's had their wisdom drained and no chance to hire a casting of Restoration for quite a few mods after. The Allip may be CR 3 in the classic sense - I'd expect a full APL 4 party to see it as little challenge, and an APL 2 party with a 3rd-level Cleric likely won't see too major a problem with it either - but it's a great example of why the EL system breaks on the low end.
Morgen 02-03-07, 02:34 AM	I'm not sure that this is the right place to complaina bout this, but Elementals seriously seem to be way too powerful at lower APLs. Sure at higher levels you just blast the things to bits and move on your merry way, but it seems like anything APL 6 and lower, once you hit an elemental your almost always in a rather nasty near-TPK situation. Every time... Doesn't matter the type or the table either, we just be mowed over. We'll barely suvive against some wondering elemental on a road, and then proceed to completely massacure all the rest of the monsters and enemies in a module. It doesn't help that almost every time an elemental is around it has 90% of the terrain to help it's ass out either. Have to save someone on a dock? Well here come an air and water elemental, have fun! Sigh. I don't know, the damn things are under CR'ed in my opinion. DR 5/- isn't any fun and they've got enough hitpoints to survive scorching rays/magic missiles/lesser orb spells and the large ones have reach and abilities they can use regularly just out of your range. Storm elementals should be banned as long as we're at it.
LGMoses 02-03-07, 04:44 AM	There's no way this thing should be in an intro mod. Even if you can claim it's not a recipe for a TPK, it's a recipe for brand new LG players winding up with a character who's had their wisdom drained and no chance to hire a casting of Restoration for quite a few mods after. The Allip may be CR 3 in the classic sense - I'd expect a full APL 4 party to see it as little challenge, and an APL 2 party with a 3rd-level Cleric likely won't see too major a problem with it either - but it's a great example of why the EL system breaks on the low end. I agree with this. Intro mods are for popping the proverbial cherries of LG players and I don't think any DRAIN attacks are appropriate. Damage is fine, drain is just too much. I htink it'll turn away players IMO.
thorinXXX 02-03-07, 12:26 PM	Any large zombie. Anything with the Spellwarped or Half-Golem template. Advanced grapple monsters at any APL.
rockondon 02-03-07, 05:44 PM	pre-buffed NPC's should have higher CR imho.
Simpi 02-03-07, 06:31 PM	pre-buffed NPC's should have higher CR imho. What if some villain uses one his daily spells to ward his place with alarm spell that PCs trigger. Should he wait on his butt while PCs rampage through his stronghold and only start buffing his 10min/level spells when he sees PCs? What if he is high enough spellcaster and has 24h buff spells up? All of that is already included in spellcasters challenge rating. I don't recall seeing spellcasters who automatically start as buffed-up combat monsters. Usually at least some sort of alarm or combat has to happen for them to start casting them. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
rockondon 02-03-07, 08:31 PM	What if some villain uses one his daily spells to ward his place with alarm spell that PCs trigger. Should he wait on his butt while PCs rampage through his stronghold and only start buffing his 10min/level spells when he sees PCs? What if he is high enough spellcaster and has 24h buff spells up? All of that is already included in spellcasters challenge rating. I don't recall seeing spellcasters who automatically start as buffed-up combat monsters. Usually at least some sort of alarm or combat has to happen for them to start casting them. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad your argument has a lot of merit, yet, somehow, I find myself foolishly unswayed by said logic and reason, and stubbornly I maintain my position on the matter.
jstorrie 02-03-07, 08:34 PM	I think it's reasonable for spellcasters to start with some of their buffs on, but actions are limited. Will a wizard reasonably apply every single buff he knows, or just the critical ones?
Simpi 02-03-07, 09:10 PM	your argument has a lot of merit, yet, somehow, I find myself foolishly unswayed by said logic and reason, and stubbornly I maintain my position on the matter. I do not hold it against you. Discussions on opinions in the internet are like trench warfare. Lots of fighting over relatively insignificant issues and the end result is that everyone is just dug deeper into their own positions. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
rockondon 02-03-07, 09:59 PM	I do not hold it against you. Discussions on opinions in the internet are like trench warfare. Lots of fighting over relatively insignificant issues and the end result is that everyone is just dug deeper into their own positions. true dat. When a guy knows he's been proven wrong his pride won't let him admit it. And considering the ambiguity of my initial statement, I was most certainly wrong for precisely the reasons you stated. Although a (since this is our example) wizard with buffs is more powerful than one without buffs, one might incorrectly say the buffed wizard should have a higher CR, but the fact that said wizard's ingenuity towards warning himself about impending battles is already included in his CR, there should be no increase his CR. However, when I made my initial statement about pre-buffed NPCs, I wasn't thinking about wizards and alarm spells, I was thinking about things like thieves with rings of blinking or invisibility or any other dude using any gear that significantly increases his effectiveness. One module I ran at low APL had some piddly wizard with a gem of air elemental summoning - which he used quite effectively. But I was too lazy to say all that...so I said pre-buffed NPCs instead, and that laziness placed me on the losing side of an argument. I think it's reasonable for spellcasters to start with some of their buffs on, but actions are limited. Will a wizard reasonably apply every single buff he knows, or just the critical ones? Depends on circumstances, but if those circumstances warned you that a party of seasoned adventurers was coming, would you hold back? Personally I'd summon all reinforcements, cast every buff, and ready a fireball for when the door opened.
Mommy was an Orc 02-03-07, 10:02 PM	What if some villain uses one his daily spells to ward his place with alarm spell that PCs trigger. Should he wait on his butt while PCs rampage through his stronghold and only start buffing his 10min/level spells when he sees PCs? What if he is high enough spellcaster and has 24h buff spells up? All of that is already included in spellcasters challenge rating. I don't recall seeing spellcasters who automatically start as buffed-up combat monsters. Usually at least some sort of alarm or combat has to happen for them to start casting them. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad I've seen several casters throw up 1 round/level spells as buffs before the combat starts - summon monster, dust of disappearance or improved invisibility, divine power/righteous might, and the 1 minute/level spells are awfully common as well. A lot of those spells assume the party will actually be walking into the area at exactly the right moment, particularly at low APLs where the 1 minute/level spells' duration can be measured in rounds...
Mommy was an Orc 02-03-07, 10:04 PM	Depends on circumstances, but if those circumstances warned you that a party of seasoned adventurers was coming, would you hold back? Personally I'd summon all reinforcements, cast every buff, and ready a fireball for when the door opened. Just as a note, you can't ready actions out of combat. That's called roll initiative.
bhale187 02-03-07, 10:15 PM	Just as a note, you can't ready actions out of combat. That's called roll initiative. Is that errata somewhere? The PHB gives a specific example of ready action as shooting an arrow at anyone who enters a nearby door.
Simpi 02-03-07, 10:20 PM	A lot of those spells assume the party will actually be walking into the area at exactly the right moment, particularly at low APLs where the 1 minute/level spells' duration can be measured in rounds... It hardly requires that much effort on wizards (and on authors part) to ensure this kept legal. A familiar with good enough hide check will almost surely warn his master of approaching danger (with empathic link) and it can also be used for scouting party movement. On higher APLs any wizard worth his craft will have stuff like "anticipate teleport" on to make sure he is not caught by surprise and can hope to have some buffs up. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
LGMoses 02-03-07, 11:06 PM	Is that errata somewhere? The PHB gives a specific example of ready action as shooting an arrow at anyone who enters a nearby door. I remember that. I remember it was that he readied to shoot the next thing that came through the door, but his friend came through the door so he had to make a DC 5 wisdom check to avoid shooting his friend. I can't remember where that was though.
Mommy was an Orc 02-04-07, 10:09 AM	Is that errata somewhere? The PHB gives a specific example of ready action as shooting an arrow at anyone who enters a nearby door. Two points, although I believe it is in the FAQ: It is in the combat section on how to change your initiative sequence. You only have initiative in combat. The PHB example is in essence - you move through a door then ready an action to shoot the next enemy you're already fighting If characters can ready actions out of combat, there's no point to the surprise/initiative rules - everyone should take half moves and then ready to do something under certain circumstances. "If I see people moving to attack us, I cast Haste." - "You're surprised." "Doesn't matter, I see them, right?"
Akhamshyy 02-04-07, 10:24 AM	There are rules for one side to be aware of the other and in initiative while the other side has yet to make the required role to know of the other. It's not easy to pull off when it goes agianst the PCs, people tend to meta-game it. But woe to a judge who doesn't let the PCs start their thing if they hear a beastie behind the next door and want to get started. Once the mage knows of the PCs, he's in initiative and can act as such. The PCs too should be asked for initiative and held in it.
SgtHulka 02-04-07, 03:25 PM	Mommy was an Orc is correct; there is no readying of actions outside of initiative. To address Akhammshy's point, if the PC's hear a Beastie behind the door, and the Beastie does not hear them, and neither side can see each other (therefore no spot check), then initiative begins with the PC's being given a surprise round. Since the PC's have no line of effect to the Beastie, they can't attack it (though some PC's could use spells that don't require line of effect, like Dimension Door). If during the surprise round a high initiative PC manages to break down the door or put a hole in a wall or something, lower initiative PC's can now attack the surprised Beastie. But, of course, remember surprise rounds consist of a single action. Here's the jist: 1) PC's unaware of Beasties, Beasties unaware of PC's. No initiative yet, no reason for PC's to start buffing w/o Meta-Knowledge (apart from standard buffs when entering a dungeon or something). 2) PC's hear Beasties, Beasties don't hear PC's, no one sees each other. Initiative begins, PC's given surprise round, but can only target blindly. Since initiative has begun, PC's can now use "ready" action. 3) PC's see Beasties, Beasties neither hear nor see PC's. PC's given surprise round. Can do what they like. 4) PC's see Beasties, Beasties hear PC's but don't see them. Both sides are considered "aware" so no surprise round. Initiative as per normal, however Beastie can only target PC's blindly. 5) PC's see Beasties, Beasties see PC's. Both sides are considered "aware" so no surprise round. 6) More Beasties down the hall hear battle. Rush in to join battle. New combatants are "aware" and they join current initiative at the top of the order. The reverse of all the above is true as well. Obviously, any time there is a surprise round, it's likely that only a few members of either side are aware. Now, if one side is completely unaware of the other, I think there's a gray area in the rules and an assumption that the aware side does not need to start initiative if it doesn't want to. A caster spying with Clairvoyance, or a Rogue hiding and spying are both examples of this. I'm not sure where in the RAW it gives guidelines on this type of situation, however.
cetiken 02-04-07, 03:47 PM	There were enough tools on the surface for inappropriately equipped PCs to equip appropriately (spears, daggers, and crossbows; could remove all but light armor). But many groups didn't think to withdraw and get the right tools sitting on the ground outside the entrance to below, instead of pushing on with their heavy armor, greataxes, bows, etc. Umm.... I hate to break it to you, but a crossbow is nowhere near as effective as my archer's weapon (+1 Holy Mighty Composite Longbow [16 str]). Now if said crossbow was a +2 Icy Light Crossbow, then were talking near parity. Part of PCs effectiveness is being properly equipped for their level. When you negate that for example my forcing the tank to ditch his +3 Medium Fortification Full Plate you are in fact seriously increasing the challenge. Especially if you think a 250gp suit of Masterwork Chain is sufficient replacement. I apologize if that sounded a bit critical, but I'm getting a bit tired of encounters making ranged combat ineffective. Its bad enough with the constructs and the elementals and the fact that everything always has cover. As for the seperete pre-buffed NPV discussion... I'm of two minds, I don't object to NPCs using hour per level or even 10min/level buffs but most use (the significantly more effective) round/ level buffs to great effect - something I wouldn't mind so much except (with a few rare exceptions) as PCs I seem to always be the amushed and not the ambusher.
The_Jester 02-04-07, 04:42 PM	pre-buffed NPC's should have higher CR imho. CR, no. No way, they're CR already takes that into effect. However, the EL of walking into a room full of pre-buffed NPCs should be slightly higher (rounded up?) than walking into a room full of the exact same NPCs un-buffed.
bhale187 02-04-07, 04:43 PM	If characters can ready actions out of combat, there's no point to the surprise/initiative rules - everyone should take half moves and then ready to do something under certain circumstances. "If I see people moving to attack us, I cast Haste." - "You're surprised." "Doesn't matter, I see them, right?" Readying is a standard action, and when surprised you do not get a standard action. I still fail to see a difference in these 2 circumstances 1) I disengage the enemy to back through a door, and then I use a standard action to ready to blastt the next thing coming through the door 2) I know something is coming, but we have not entered combat yet so I can't ready to blast the next thing coming through the door, even if my familiar told me it's a minotaur that is unaware of me and would therefore enter on a surprise round.
Eric Anondson 02-04-07, 05:23 PM	Umm.... I hate to break it to you, but a crossbow is nowhere near as effective as my archer's weapon (+1 Holy Mighty Composite Longbow [16 str]).Did you read the part of the post where I said PCs were in tunnels two feet high by two feet wide? Couldn't have, unless you are unfamiliar with the rules for restrictive tunnels in the DMG2, p. 55. For crawl-navigable, in addition to fighting from prone penalties: –4: Attack penalty for light weapons* –8: Attack penalty for 1-handed weapons* Unusable: Attack penalty for 2-handed weapons* Crossbows only: Ranged weapons *: Treat piercing weapons that jab as one size category smaller. So go enter the meenlock warren with your uber bow, and be useless.
clannagh 02-04-07, 05:41 PM	Any large zombie. Anything with the Spellwarped or Half-Golem template. Advanced grapple monsters at any APL. the one that stands out to me was some sort of advanced/templated (cannot recall the details) Bullete at APL4 Sometimes when you think an encounter is wrong for the APL it actually is. It is not unknown for a GM to mistakenly (or occasionally even deliberatley despite it being clearly against the rules) throw in the encounter from a higher APL.
_m_ 02-04-07, 06:42 PM	Just as a note, you can't ready actions out of combat. That's called roll initiative. unless ur a bloodhound.
Mommy was an Orc 02-04-07, 08:43 PM	Readying is a standard action, and when surprised you do not get a standard action. The action of readying is a standard action, the action of your readied action going off is not a standard action. I know something is coming, but we have not entered combat yet so I can't ready to blast the next thing coming through the door, even if my familiar told me it's a minotaur that is unaware of me and would therefore enter on a surprise round. Right. That's called a surprise round. You're ready to enter combat, it is not. And you get to take a standard action - almost as if you had readied.
bhale187 02-04-07, 09:21 PM	My point on readying being a standard action was that a DM could quickly explain why you cannot ready a haste spell when you are surprised. If you are surprised you cannot take any action that round, readying is a standard action, therefore you cannot ready anything when surprised.
JohnduBois 02-04-07, 09:37 PM	General rules: No level drain at APL 2. Vampire spawns and vampires at this level are right out. No instant death effects at APL 2-6. No sea hags or bodaks. (and sea hags are stupid anyways. Seriously. Dazed for three DAYS?) No hardness >5 at APL 2, >10 at APL 2-4, or >15 at APL 2-8. Hardness 20 or more should be reserved only for things that the PCs get an extra-special reward for breaking. Specific monster no-nos: Spriggan Rog1, hiding in wait for PCs, in an intro mod. 1d8+6 plus 3d6 sneak on level 1 characters is stupid. Special ability/quality-heavy base/prestige classes. Learn from my personal experience; if a single monster has a two-column stat block - at APL 6 - just say no. Anything from a 3.0 book that looks like it should have errata, but doesn't. In particular, this goes for Nerras at APL 2-4. (30-ft cone of 5d6 no-save damage? Ick.) Ankhegs at APL 2. Advanced monsters with improved grab that advance 4 HD per CR (unless, of course, they're a certain specific Small undead guy - those guys are awesome). I'm sure there are others, but I can't think of what they are.
Mommy was an Orc 02-04-07, 09:38 PM	My point on readying being a standard action was that a DM could quickly explain why you cannot ready a haste spell when you are surprised. If you are surprised you cannot take any action that round, readying is a standard action, therefore you cannot ready anything when surprised. The action is illegal for the reasons I'm describing. There is no reason for a DM to make a ruling. In rockondon's ready a fireball for the approaching players I was seeing it as surprised players and therefore the mage could cast on them as they entered. And that's called a standard action taken during the surprise round...
bhale187 02-04-07, 09:39 PM	On rockondon's suggestion I was seeing as this the party is surprised, the mage is not the mage rolls initiave and readies his spell the players enter and a surprise round begins mage gets off his readied action and a standard action players roll their initiative as the next round begins and so you are saying it should have been the party is surprised, the mage is not the players enter and a surprise round begins mage gets off a standard action and the round ends players roll their initiative as the next round begins (perhaps I should have tried to be more clear in my question the first time rather than rewording it five times with edits)
Mommy was an Orc 02-04-07, 09:48 PM	and so you are saying it should have been the party is surprised, the mage is not the players enter and a surprise round begins mage gets off a standard action and the round ends players roll their initiative as the next round begins That's correct. The mage has to win initiative in order to get off 2 actions before the party can go.
Akhamshyy 02-04-07, 09:59 PM	Contingency then? I'm trying to gather what you want. There's a card called 'Feign Surprise'. Maybe that's it? On the subject of badly CRed monsters and ELed encounters. The writer has to understand how the creature works in an environment. If I throw a shadow mastiff at an APL 4 party on the road, it's a challenge. If i throw that same mastiff at the same party during the night in a wooded area, the ELs going up, an I have to be mindful of it. I've got to listen to play-test remarks and see if it can still run, and be fun before putting it out there to munch on PCs. The same is true for plants and undead if I advance them. I can't just assume that some formula takes care of it all. Then there are very circumstantial critters like the dread wraith. It's listed as CR 11, but under many conditions sets up for a far harder challenge. Mix in tight deadlines, editing, other pressures, lost memory sticks with final drafts... Sometimes things slip through. Sometimes things are carefully crafted but judges run them wrong.
Maesto 02-04-07, 10:50 PM	ok, here's one for the readying out of combat question. I have a party blundering through a dungeon, making a hell of a rukus. The rogue in the next room hears them coming, takes cover behind a boulder (MS and Hide, party all fails checks), and readies to sneak attack the big nasty who's about to open the door, because he can hear that they're about to do so. Fighter opens door, rogue takes his sneak attack in surprise round. Now we roll initiative. At least, that's how I ran that particular combat. There are arguments that the rogue could not have readied this action because combat had not yet started. Furthermore, he wasn't "initiating" combat, so to speak. Finally, the fighter in question told me that he had only taken a move action that round (opening the door), and should have a standard action left to deal with in the "surprise round". I told him to get nicked. Thoughts, anybody? I really don't think that the rogue should have to wait for another round until he begins the combat, because even though this guy could hide, shouldn't exactly the same thing go for a fighter, especially if he makes his hide and move silently checks? (Doors give good bonuses :) Cheers, Jolyon
_m_ 02-04-07, 10:58 PM	ok, here's one for the readying out of combat question. I have a party blundering through a dungeon, making a hell of a rukus. The rogue in the next room hears them coming, takes cover behind a boulder (MS and Hide, party all fails checks), and readies to sneak attack the big nasty who's about to open the door, because he can hear that they're about to do so. Fighter opens door, rogue takes his sneak attack in surprise round. Now we roll initiative. At least, that's how I ran that particular combat. There are arguments that the rogue could not have readied this action because combat had not yet started. Furthermore, he wasn't "initiating" combat, so to speak. Finally, the fighter in question told me that he had only taken a move action that round (opening the door), and should have a standard action left to deal with in the "surprise round". I told him to get nicked. Thoughts, anybody? I really don't think that the rogue should have to wait for another round until he begins the combat, because even though this guy could hide, shouldn't exactly the same thing go for a fighter, especially if he makes his hide and move silently checks? (Doors give good bonuses :) Cheers, Jolyon actually, im pretty sure he WAS initiating combat. he hadn't readied, because you cant do that out of combat, but him simply waited, and then initiated a surprise round when the fighter entered the room, using his action to sneak attack the fighter.
Iswald 02-04-07, 11:17 PM	I have a party blundering through a dungeon, making a hell of a rukus. The rogue in the next room hears them coming, takes cover behind a boulder (MS and Hide, party all fails checks), and readies to sneak attack the big nasty who's about to open the door, because he can hear that they're about to do so. Why does he even attack? Does the rogue feel tough enough to take out the whole party? Maybe he should have waited for the last person to enter and then attacked them (perhaps the party wizard) and move out of the room? Or, just hide until the party isn't watching and sneak out. I'm sure the mod must have covered some of this but, I have trouble fathoming why the rogue would attack the toughest person in the party.
_m_ 02-04-07, 11:34 PM	Why does he even attack? Does the rogue feel tough enough to take out the whole party? Maybe he should have waited for the last person to enter and then attacked them (perhaps the party wizard) and move out of the room? Or, just hide until the party isn't watching and sneak out. I'm sure the mod must have covered some of this but, I have trouble fathoming why the rogue would attack the toughest person in the party. maybe: a) it was worried that if it let the party enter the room, one of them would spot him. b) he was specifically trying to stop the party entering the room c) he knew that if he let the party in the room, he could be surrounded, which wouldnt happen if he dropped a few at the door d) (most likely) he was one FREAKIN hardcore rogue.
solbergb 02-04-07, 11:47 PM	e. He didn't know he was about to enter an EL+4 or higher encounter. Until this fight he'd been on the other side of the coin, like PC's are, where you either outnumber a foe or it's much weaker than you. He hears 4-6 PC's, metagame assumes that they're lower level than him and that he can drop one with each shot if he sneak attacks. He figures by the time the Pc's move, he'll have dropped 2-3 of them and can probably tough out the rest. Ie, he thinks the party is an EL-4 encounter, an appropriate fight for a solo character :) If you think about how the EL system looks from the other side of the table, the monsters can be forgiven for making bad decisions. Parties are a lethal encounter most of the time, but the bad guys see only 4-6 humanoids in nice gear. you can tell a baby party from a mid-level one (masterwork arms and armor) and glowing weapons and excessive jewelry can distinguish a higher level party from a mid level party, but barring flashy magical effects it's tough for the bad guys to gauge PC power in a random thug encounter. Now sometimes though, they're just foolish. Like the four L1 rogues who attacked our party - this party had 6 people, two armored war dogs, an armored warhorse and two people in heavy armor. Even if we were all just warriors and the lighter armorred people commoners, we still would have ripped them in half and fed them various body parts, just with the animals. We never could figure out what they were thinking they were going to accomplish with that attack.
SgtHulka 02-04-07, 11:49 PM	ok, here's one for the readying out of combat question. I have a party blundering through a dungeon, making a hell of a rukus. The rogue in the next room hears them coming, takes cover behind a boulder (MS and Hide, party all fails checks), and readies to sneak attack the big nasty who's about to open the door, because he can hear that they're about to do so. Fighter opens door... Assuming a) There is no line of effect between party and rogue prior to the fighter opening the door and b) the rogue is already aware of the party due to the aforementioned listen check... 1. Fighter opens door. Fighter and everyone in Line of Effect of Rogue make Spot checks opposed by Rogue's Hide Check (if Rogue is in concealment and/or Cover). 2. Initiative begins. Anyone who succeeded on their spot checks and the Rogue roll initiative. Everyone who rolled initiative receives a standard action on their initiative turn (surprise round). Everyone else is surprised. 2a. If there was no cover/concealment to hide in, everyone with line of effect automatically makes their spot roll. The rogue had better win initiative or he doesn't get a sneak attack. Everyone not in Line of Effect is surprised. 3. Regular combat begins. Everyone who was surprised on the surprise round now rolls initiative and is added to the list. D&D 3.5e is like old west movies. As soon as you take an action, everyone goes for their guns. You roll initiative to determine who gets their gun first. The party is talking to an NPC. One of the party decides to stab the NPC. As soon as that party attacks the NPC, you roll for initiative, and the NPC has a chance of acting before the character. "But I'm standing right next to him." Doesn't matter. "But he was busy talking." Doesn't matter. "But I had my knife in my hand because I was slicing an apple." Doesn't matter. The NPC always gets a chance. The *best* the PC can hope for is the Judge granting a surprise round due to extenuating circumstances. I think it's within a Judge's right, for example, to use Bluff versus Sense Motive in this example to determine a surprise round. But that's not by RAW.
solbergb 02-04-07, 11:53 PM	Sometimes a judge will also grant a surprise round if everyone at the table was surprised by the initiating action. That's also not by the RAW, and really only applies to PC's doing something really crazy but it's usually well received at the table. Usually though some kind of sense motive check, or sometimes spellcraft (when the PC casts something hostile when he might have been assumed to be doing a harmless divination or something) applies.
Mithreinmaethor 02-05-07, 01:32 AM	"The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs." "Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC." So to break down your situation once the fighter opens the door (the move action that ended the last non-combat round) and the Rogue chooses to attack upon seeing the Fighter (This initiates the combat rounds and everyone rolls initiative). Since the Fighter is unaware of the Rogues presence per above the Rogue gets to take a Standard action. This standard action happens to be an attack. If the Rogue had not been close enough to attack when the fighter entered he could have spent the standard action as a move action to move closer to the fighter (hopefully still unnoticed).
LGMoses 02-05-07, 02:17 AM	*trying to get back on topic* Dinos with 4 attacks per round charging with pounce at APL 2 suck!!!:pbbbtt: o yeah, i'm subtle :cool:
Danacyrus 02-06-07, 02:08 AM	ok well i have a list, but i will just say a few, Te first one was really nasty it was a Fiendish Advanced Assassin Vine, When it is a table of 4 and 2 of them are are under the apl trust me u r screwed. Especially with it's randomly high movement. When there are 2 unconscious and 1 grappled and one caster at a really low lvl and hp it is really useless cause in the circumstance they had nothing to do but run and we actually had a goodish party make up... Secondly is a Big Bull rushing body collecting thing that is one hitting all of your druid's summoned huge creatures and than cleaving them into oblivion and back. Than they im not sure whether it is bull rush or over run or what but when they are dealing 4d8 + something humongous capable of 1 shotting my character who was at the right apl it is just nasty unless u have something like a wall of force in front of you. especially when most normal damage dosen't do through and all targeted spells level 3 and under rebound damaging yourself. luckily i rolled many ones. and most physical attacks don't go through cause or DR.:surrender The DM seems to be the only one having fun :'( :evillaugh
cycloptic_squirrel 02-06-07, 02:31 AM	APL 4: A night ambush consisting of 4 3rd level NPCs each with ~1000 gp of potions in their system and a potion of haste in round 1.
Donald_c4 02-06-07, 11:36 AM	A few issues here. 1. Most authors seem to be taking the approach of trying to challenge min/maxed characters. While I don't have a problem with this since I'm a min/maxer, it does have the side effect of making the game much harder for those who don't want to spend enormous amounts of time tweaking their character builds. It also makes the game very unfriendly for new players who don't know the ruleset very well. The solution is for authors to stop feeling that they should challenge everyone and not worry if certain groups of PCs see their scenarios as cakewalks. As long as you write a good consistant story that's fun for average players then you should be satisfied. 2. Most authors don't consider all the conditions in which an encounter is taking place. Anytime you take away the ability for PCs to use their resources with the environment then you're drastically increasing the EL. Starting in late year 2 many mod authors were placing encounters in areas that didn't allow dimensional travel. This severely hampered any summoner or wizard who used DD and it also really messed up players who lost access to items due to them being in extra-dimensional spaces. The solution here is to not worry about countering everything you think the PCs may do. You should simply write in a well balanced encounter and hope that GMs use the resources to produce a challenging encounter. 3. NPCs having unreasonable equipment. NPCs are given a huge advantage over players because they get everything they want or need. While PCs have to hope that they play the right mod at the right time, most NPCs are just equipped with what the author thinks will compliment their builds most efficiently. I haven't done the numbers on enough encounters, but it would seem that a lot of the time NPCs have more and better equipment than they should. 4. Creature encounters combined with trap encounters. This one I see starting to emerge. It seems some authors/editors think it's ok to combine traps and creatures without either affecting the others EL. When this happens it appears that only the creature EL is taken into account. And it's really crazy when there's an EL 4 encounter at APL 2 that includes a trap that requires 50k gp to construct. The solution here is to stop this sillyness. As far as the mage buffing beforehand. When I run any game that moves into an indoor environment or there is some reason that time becomes important I put the PCs into an initiative order. If an enemy becomes aware of the PCs before they become aware of it/him/her then I have it start preparing. It then reacts to the players with what knowledge it has by either taking actions or delaying. If there's an attempt to surprise I then allow the PCs a reasonable chance to spot. If any PC is not surprised, then I make them reroll initiative in order to react to danger. I never auto-surprise PCs and I never auto-surprise NPCs unless there's obvious signs to which the PCs fail to react. Bryan G
Bob_the_Theurge 02-06-07, 11:52 AM	A few issues here. 1. Most authors seem to be taking the approach of trying to challenge min/maxed characters. While I don't have a problem with this since I'm a min/maxer, it does have the side effect of making the game much harder for those who don't want to spend enormous amounts of time tweaking their character builds. It also makes the game very unfriendly for new players who don't know the ruleset very well. The solution is for authors to stop feeling that they should challenge everyone and not worry if certain groups of PCs see their scenarios as cakewalks. As long as you write a good consistant story that's fun for average players then you should be satisfied. 100% in agreement. 3. NPCs having unreasonable equipment. NPCs are given a huge advantage over players because they get everything they want or need. While PCs have to hope that they play the right mod at the right time, most NPCs are just equipped with what the author thinks will compliment their builds most efficiently. I haven't done the numbers on enough encounters, but it would seem that a lot of the time NPCs have more and better equipment than they should. I don't have the problems necessarily with the equipment; what I have a problem with more, lately, is the fact that that extra equipment tends to translate into GP, but not into access. Especially galling is when the equipment shows up, not as access, but as "if you were a member of X meta-org you get access" stuff. This kind of cheese is getting out of hand, 90% of the modules I've played this past year had it, and it is getting to the point where it's just a kludge to screw out-of-region players out of seeing access at all while cheesing up the local guys who are allowed to join said meta-orgs. Worse yet, it's yet another incentive for people to cheat; if you know X meta-org gives X access in X mod (or even in X year's mods somewhere) then you're going to metagame a reason to join up. And that's not what meta-orgs should be about. 4. Creature encounters combined with trap encounters. This one I see starting to emerge. It seems some authors/editors think it's ok to combine traps and creatures without either affecting the others EL. When this happens it appears that only the creature EL is taken into account. And it's really crazy when there's an EL 4 encounter at APL 2 that includes a trap that requires 50k gp to construct. The solution here is to stop this sillyness. Actually, since the "standard" party is supposed to carry a Rogue, and presuming there is time enough (presuming the Cleric is memorizing repairing spells) to heal up before the next encounter, this is legit and I've no problem with it.
Munkwunk 02-06-07, 01:24 PM	The ones that I don't like are the Green(?) hag at APL 2. Whichever one is CR 5, really shouldn't be facing an APL 2 table. I was going to mention this one, too. That was a near-auto-TPK for my party. If the monk and my cleric hadn't made our saves (miraculously) we would have all been dead and, in fact, my wife's brand new first level character as well as one of our other party members were insta-killed by the stupid thing, and the paladin was left sitting at 1 STR. EL+3 at APL 2 means a potential EL+4 encounter, since an APL 2 mod is very likely to contain a party full of first-level characters. Save-or-die at that level is just wrong. I once also lost a 2nd-level character due to a vampire at APL 4. One hit and he was gone. Period. 2nd-level characters can't afford a full Resurrection. Sure, I was playing up, but I was only playing up by 1 APL.
solbergb 02-06-07, 04:04 PM	A few issues here. 1. Most authors seem to be taking the approach of trying to challenge min/maxed characters. Not any authors I've met. The default playtest envt assumes more or less iconic characters, and doesn't assume balanced parties. I have experimental proof of this, because I run simulations on modules, both as a playtester and a judge, on every APL and with multiple parties. 2. Most authors don't consider all the conditions in which an encounter is taking place. Again, not usually true if you read the module. Usually there is an EL adjustment of some kind for fairly hostile terrain, but a critter in its native environment (sharks in water, say) is EL'd assuming that envt. There are often offsetting disadvantages too, which may not be obvious to the players. (a judge running cold may miss these though...) Some JUDGES seem to revel in placing monsters with no hide ranks next to parties in open terrain, but that isn't the fault of the author. 3. NPCs having unreasonable equipment. I've seen a few of these. We don't do that in our region, and I hear the circle is cracking down on cores. 4. Creature encounters combined with trap encounters. This one I see This is another thing that should be watched. Two encounters in proximity are combined into one EL, just like two critter encounters. Time to recover must be considered. If enough time passes, even if just 10 rounds (enough to heal, etc), it might be ok or adjust the EL less than just stacking the encounters. As far as the mage buffing beforehand. Bryan G This is usually a judge failure. Modules can only go so far in describing the buffs, mostly they leave it open or say the order they'd LIKE to buff if warned, but whether or not they're buffed with anything but long duration buffs is based on the intel they have about the PC's attacking. Stealthy parties should be rewarded by less-buffed enemies. Really noisy parties (like ones with my move silent -13, usually with bardsong running Warchanter in it) face fully buffed enemies. PC's can sometimes make that backfire, by stopping for 10 minutes or so after alerting the enemy, possibly retreating to somewhere defensible. The bad guys may come out to get the benefit of their buffs, or may stay put to get benefit of terrain but lose the buffs. This requires again a judge that thinks on his feet
jstorrie 02-06-07, 05:37 PM	Mod writers should really think a bit as to how the tactical placement of their NPCs may alter CRs. The other day I saw a combat where the party was auto-surprised by two harssafs who were in perfect AOE range to both nail the whole party during the surprise round; while MMIII may say this is an EL6 scrap, is really reasonable to drop a 6d6 AoE on an APL2 party during a surprise round, with two saves vs. blindness tacked on? How many 2nd-level PCs will not be auto-KO'd by that, if not killed outright?
Bob_the_Theurge 02-06-07, 06:12 PM	Mod writers should really think a bit as to how the tactical placement of their NPCs may alter CRs. The other day I saw a combat where the party was auto-surprised by two harssafs who were in perfect AOE range to both nail the whole party during the surprise round; while MMIII may say this is an EL6 scrap, is really reasonable to drop a 6d6 AoE on an APL2 party during a surprise round, with two saves vs. blindness tacked on? How many 2nd-level PCs will not be auto-KO'd by that, if not killed outright? At APL 2, you should be expecting at least one Level 1 character in the party as well. It was said a long while back, I forget by who, that the EL system is only a guideline specifically because it breaks down at low and high APL's, and because it's too easy to cheese out. At APL 2, there are numerous examples of stuff that is (for example) CR 3 or 4 that can singlehandedly TPK a true APL 2 party easily, but that paired up (making an EL 5 or EL 6 encounter) really isn't that bad for a true APL 4 party to handle. Likewise, there are some CR 10 or 11 critters that are about right for an APL 8 party to face, but that paired up (to be CR 12 or 13) are something a true APL 10 party will call a cakewalk. And then there's the cheese in the system associated with Saving Throw DC's , Spell-Like Abilities where the caster level is the HD, "nonassociated class levels" (read: 1 free HD and bonus to a saving throw), and critters that (because of type) get +4 HD for every +1 CR and a boatload of feats thereby. If I advance a CR 3 Aberration to CR 10, I can give it 28 more hit dice (+14 saving throw), plus Ability Focus, Improved Toughness, Multiattack, and 6 other feats just for fun, plus I can toss in another 1 Hit Dice worth of a "nonassociated class level" to be really mean.
clannagh 02-06-07, 06:17 PM	Another issue is that not all monsters in the MM scale well with extra numbers the classic example being 2 monsters with sneak attack and greater teleport are more like 4X harder than 1 monster with those abilities and some templates are a wee bit broken .. incorporeal willowisps come to mind here
Haro 02-06-07, 06:49 PM	Especially galling is when the equipment shows up, not as access, but as "if you were a member of X meta-org you get access" stuff. This kind of cheese is getting out of hand, 90% of the modules I've played this past year had it, and it is getting to the point where it's just a kludge to screw out-of-region players out of seeing access at all while cheesing up the local guys who are allowed to join said meta-orgs. Worse yet, it's yet another incentive for people to cheat; if you know X meta-org gives X access in X mod (or even in X year's mods somewhere) then you're going to metagame a reason to join up. And that's not what meta-orgs should be about. You're right Bob. Meta-orgs should be about regional flavour and allowing PCs to feel more involved in the region and its plotlines. As opposed to a PC who is a stranger, when a PC of X meta-org helps out a fellow member, that person is more likely to reward them with a favour - hang on, I think that's the opposite to what you are saying... Regions do not and should not water down their region building and plotlines because some out of region players may also play them. If someone plays in a particular 'other' region often, they should make a PC based there to immerse in the role playing experience more fully. Perrenland has an ongoing, brilliant plotline that out of region players wouldn't 'get'. Their PCs wouldn't have any motivation to take the plot hooks either because they are designed for Perrenders. That's why we have regions, so everyone can have a place they can call home. If regionals gave out generic flavours like cores do, Perrenland for one would be a far less interesting place. Joe P.S. That's the first time I've ever heard a player accuse people who join meta-orgs to be cheesy or even cheating. The vast majority of people around here join for role playing opportunities. The cheesy cheaters tend to be powergamers who refuse to take the TU hit in my experience.
Mithreinmaethor 02-06-07, 07:01 PM	Maybe Intro mods should be Core modules that take a character from 1st to 2nd and cost say maybe 4 or 5 TU's. They can deal with the basics goings on in the whole realm in the previous year. This way the new people get introduced to the whole realm and feel and it can be written so as to be a true intro and not just and APL 2 mod. Put 2 out a year and you are good. Maybe up the number of allowable mods in a region and meta-region to go from 8 to 10 maybe ?
Bob_the_Theurge 02-06-07, 07:13 PM	You're right Bob. Meta-orgs should be about regional flavour and allowing PCs to feel more involved in the region and its plotlines. As opposed to a PC who is a stranger, when a PC of X meta-org helps out a fellow member, that person is more likely to reward them with a favour - hang on, I think that's the opposite to what you are saying... I have a character who plays about 50/50 in my region and in the region across the border, because we do cross-region conventions and both regions tend to cross the border all the time. We have a bigger community for it. Our play base is improved because of people who are willing to come over and play in our mods, and us in theirs. I have another who plays exclusively at "home." I have another who's in Core modules most of the time. I've got one tied down in a certain 51 TU "Adaptable." My 50/50 happens to be a member of certain "home" meta-orgs. Not because he gets something out of them, but because he had roleplaying reasons (core feats that matched the MO "flavor", NPC friends, and PC friends he plays with often enough who are also members). Of three meta-orgs, he's only used one MO benefit of the lot, and that was spent getting into one of the others (he needed a friendly Influence Point to become a "friend of" a certain racial MO, and then wound up with half a dozen a few mods after). Not once has he taken a limited feat, item access, or PrC from the MO's he is in. I've got plenty of favors with the MO's across the border, more influence points than I care to count. One would think that that would offer the opportunity to spend a few IP to join up, but that's not the case. A couple of the past modules I played, there were 3-4 items in the Access section, and the entirety of the rest of the gear WE ENCOUNTERED was up in the "but you only get this if you're a member of the local meta-org" nonsense. We only had one "local" character at any of those tables, although four of us had Knowledge:Local for the metaregion because they play there often enough. And you have the nerve to call our characters STRANGERS to that region? Regions do not and should not water down their region building and plotlines because some out of region players may also play them. If someone plays in a particular 'other' region often, they should make a PC based there to immerse in the role playing experience more fully. More elitist nonsense. A PC can have Knowledge: Local and be just fine, or be friends with other characters who are there. He can play modules in any region and acquire contacts and influence points there. Part of the idea of "regional" modules is to encourage people to travel out of region from time to time, to enjoy the regional flavors of other regions, because LG isn't just a local home game, it's a global community of players. Yeah, I'm more likely to go to my neighboring state than to fly to France, but I still have that option. Perrenland has an ongoing, brilliant plotline that out of region players wouldn't 'get'. Their PCs wouldn't have any motivation to take the plot hooks either because they are designed for Perrenders. That's why we have regions, so everyone can have a place they can call home. If regionals gave out generic flavours like cores do, Perrenland for one would be a far less interesting place. And I'm sure your bits wind up in the metaregionals you write too, and the other metaregional players are picking up on your regional flavor just like you'd hope to pick up on theirs from the metaregionals that their writers churn out. But I'm not talking about generic flavor. Keep the flavor of the metaregion all you want. If players from out of region screw up, so be it. What I object to is that, even when a player from out of region gets it right - either because he's with players from the region at a convention table or he visits often enough to have been in the storylines already - he's screwed for access and they thumb their noses at him with the "sorry you didn't know the secret handshake for the meta-org access favor to get the crap from the big evil bad guy you personally just killed" nonsense. Joe P.S. That's the first time I've ever heard a player accuse people who join meta-orgs to be cheesy or even cheating. The vast majority of people around here join for role playing opportunities. The cheesy cheaters tend to be powergamers who refuse to take the TU hit in my experience. I didn't accuse anyone of cheating. I said in no uncertain terms that having "meta org access" like this is a problem because it ENCOURAGES cheating. It encourages people to AR-shop and Meta-org shop, and part of the reason Meta-Org access was nerfed in the first place was to stop people from Meta-Org shopping for too many rare magic items and feats and other access. Plus, it's just insulting. "Oh, you helped us so much, you defeated the bad guy and did what we asked, but sorry, you don't have the secret ring, so your access can just sod off. Here, enjoy the over-the-cap gold that you can't use anyways."
Necrochaos 02-06-07, 07:13 PM	There was a Furyondy intro module with an Ettercap and then we fought a Sprigand. I sprigand in an intro mod? They enlarge, or can throw fire, sneak attack? It was a nasty nasty battle. The intro mod should be retired by now, but holy crap did we get smoked good. There was also a year 5 module if you did the wrong thing you could fight a ghost at APL 2. We did the wrong thing and had to run. We couldn't affect it.
rockondon 02-06-07, 07:17 PM	Regions do not and should not water down their region building and plotlines because some out of region players may also play them. If someone plays in a particular 'other' region often, they should make a PC based there to immerse in the role playing experience more fully. Perrenland has an ongoing, brilliant plotline that out of region players wouldn't 'get'. Their PCs wouldn't have any motivation to take the plot hooks either because they are designed for Perrenders. That's why we have regions, so everyone can have a place they can call home. If regionals gave out generic flavours like cores do, Perrenland for one would be a far less interesting place. This makes me glad to be from Zeif, a region that apparently does "water down their region building" because it caters to all. Everybody is welcome, everybody will get the plot line, everybody gets the access, and we have no interest in screwing over visitors because we think that showing them a good time will make us "a less interesting place." That's why we have regions, so everyone can have a place they can call home. and that's why we have regions, so people can TRAVEL, and experience the flavor and atmosphere of different cultures. Perrenland might have a GO AWAY sign at their borders, but the one at Zeif says Welcome.
Haro 02-06-07, 08:20 PM	and that's why we have regions, so people can TRAVEL, and experience the flavor and atmosphere of different cultures. Perrenland might have a GO AWAY sign at their borders, but the one at Zeif says Welcome. So regions weren't made so people could contribute to world building, create flavour for their local area and encourage roleplaying by having local meta-organisations to contribute and belong to. Apparently they were developed for people who don't live in their area? How does that make sense? People write and otherwise develop their region for their own player base. Any other players should be secondary in devising plotlines/meta-orgs etc. Joe
Necrochaos 02-06-07, 08:24 PM	I think we have strayed long past the topic and are nearing a flame war. Maybe we should go back to naming monsters that are grossly over APL ranges. Speaking of hampering terrain, what about a 30 diameter cylinder room with two Djinns with Quicken Scorching rays at APL 6. I died, luckily no one else did. Flying casting spells in a small space. Death from above man.
Istaran 02-06-07, 08:43 PM	I just recently ran an APL 2 mod that had (only at APL 2) a sea cat. 18 AC, 51 HP. 2 claws +9 (1d6+4) If both hit, rend for an additional 2d6+6. So if two +9 claws hit in the same round I'm doing 28 +/- 10 damage. The level 1 fighter was down before her first turn. Later healed back up, rejoined the fight, and was rended from full life to dead. The level 1 ranger bounces several arrows off it uselessly, decides his lack of precise shot is too much and draws a melee weapon. Promptly gets himself rended to death too. The level 2 sorceress bounces all her spells per day off it as magic missiles, then resorts to a long spear. She's probably second choice for MVP this battle. The level 1 druid bounces a bunch of sling bullets off it uselessly. Wee. And heals the fighter as mentioned above. The monk 2/sorc 2 mutt uses scroll of mage armor + shield spell + total defense to generate enough AC combined with his mighty 22 HP and tries to be the only target in range, but even after explaining this, some of the other PCs keep closing and drawing fire. I'd still give him MVP for soaking so many attacks. The level 1 swashbuckler gets some hits in, mostly 1 or 2 damage hits, gets injured and figures (rightly) that he really doesn't want to stick around to be rended. --------------- On the other hand.. they nearly won the encounter after the first couple rounds by standing back. Tactics note in the mod says it won't leave the water...
Maesto 02-06-07, 09:09 PM	Other monsters that shouldn't be: Jovocs. I hate these little buggers. A single jovoc can decimate an at-APL party, especially if healing is limited, or you're in confined quarters. And hope to hell that your fighter doesn't crit with a scythe. Two jovocs are even worse... I saw one mod that had bears enduranced jovocs with a vrock. The DC on the saves had gone up from the bears endurance, they'd received extra hitpoints, and the bloody vrock full power attacked the jovoc on a full attack. In excess of 300 points of damage to the party in one round. Ouch. Cadaver Collectors. These guys suck. There are two ways to take them out: a sorceror with orb of force, or an enlarged fighter with an adamantine weapon. I really hate these silly things, because wizards tend to run out of spells to fling at them to do damage, and archers can't do squat. I particularly detested a module that had two encounters that comprised of one of these things. Drowned. I've only ever seen one, and I don't want to see it again thank you very much. *grumbles at the stupid monster* Ragewalker. Have you ever seen a more under-CRed critter? I fought one of these at APL 12 in confined quarters. The module author had taken off a third of it's hitpoints, and given it as EL 12 instead of EL 14. *grumbles some more about a ridiculously stupid monster*. If ever I write a scenario, it will NOT have one of these. At any APL. *grumbles some more* Jolyon
JohnduBois 02-06-07, 09:32 PM	The intro mod should be retired by now... It isn't (and that mod's encounters were at the top of my "I need to remember not to allow this type of thing" list). There was also a year 5 module if you did the wrong thing you could fight a ghost at APL 2. We did the wrong thing and had to run. We couldn't affect it. IIRC, the tactics balanced this one a little (read: didn't actually kill anyone). I'd have to check to be sure, though (as the only table I DM'd it for turned the ghost).
rockondon 02-06-07, 10:05 PM	So regions weren't made so people could contribute to world building, create flavour for their local area and encourage roleplaying by having local meta-organisations to contribute and belong to. Apparently they were developed for people who don't live in their area? How does that make sense? This is a very good example of a very bad straw man argument. First you pretend that I said people can't contribute to building their world. Then you pretend I said they can't create local flavor and meta-organizations. Then you pretend I said that meta-orgs must only cater to outsiders. Then you attempt to refute the pretenses you've created, as though I had actually said them. These tactics don't fool anyone.People write and otherwise develop their region for their own player base. Any other players should be secondary in devising plotlines/meta-orgs etc. I never even mentioned meta-orgs in my previous post but I've been in tons of mods involving various meta-orgs and I've never lost an access or suffered any other ill effect from not being a member of one. The rewards given to meta-org members don't necessarily have to deny other PCs of anything. But back on topic, I suppose one of the hardest things I fought for its APL were some babau's at APL 6. Last thing my cleric remembered was getting flanked and somebody saying "Uh oh, these things have sneak attack too" I've never met a cadaver collector. It sounds like fun. ;)
copper_wyrmling 02-06-07, 10:07 PM	Other monsters that shouldn't be: Jovocs. I hate these little buggers. A single jovoc can decimate an at-APL party, especially if healing is limited, or you're in confined quarters. And hope to hell that your fighter doesn't crit with a scythe. Two jovocs are even worse... I saw one mod that had bears enduranced jovocs with a vrock. The DC on the saves had gone up from the bears endurance, they'd received extra hitpoints, and the bloody vrock full power attacked the jovoc on a full attack. In excess of 300 points of damage to the party in one round. Ouch. Cadaver Collectors. These guys suck. There are two ways to take them out: a sorceror with orb of force, or an enlarged fighter with an adamantine weapon. I really hate these silly things, because wizards tend to run out of spells to fling at them to do damage, and archers can't do squat. I particularly detested a module that had two encounters that comprised of one of these things. Drowned. I've only ever seen one, and I don't want to see it again thank you very much. *grumbles at the stupid monster* Ragewalker. Have you ever seen a more under-CRed critter? I fought one of these at APL 12 in confined quarters. The module author had taken off a third of it's hitpoints, and given it as EL 12 instead of EL 14. *grumbles some more about a ridiculously stupid monster*. If ever I write a scenario, it will NOT have one of these. At any APL. *grumbles some more* Jolyon I agree about the jovocs. Re the cadaver collector, Freedom of Movement also works instead of Enlarge. If advanced they get even nastier (CR goes up very slowly with hit dice): for a heavily advanced one, you really want a hitter and somebody to heal them (the CR-14 one we fought had 300-400 HP with AC 30+, and that takes a while to chew through), and BOTH of them need to be immune to its improved grab somehow, because it's not mindless and won't necessarily just keep swinging for the closest target. That said... I think they're okay at APL 14+ (maybe 12+), but the guy who gave a CR-14 one to an APL 10 party to fight was not playing fair (and it wasn't alone: it was part of an EL15 encounter). Fortunately the CR of Drowned was errata'ed. They're still deeply annoying. (Although I watched a Drowned encounter lead to a somewhat amusing PC introduction from "The Unluckiest Man In The World, Who Managed To Drown In The Middle Of The Desert" ;) ) Not sure about the ragewalker: our APL 12 party really didn't find it too difficult. It doesn't have a lot of hit points, so I guess it can be taken down pretty quickly if you get lucky.
Eric Anondson 02-06-07, 10:20 PM	I remember the ether hulks. Killed my main character twice in APL 8 adventures. He was stuck playing APL 8 for so years thanks to those things. Was level 6 playing APL 8 and died. When I found out the ether hulk had a BAB of +19 I just about gave up LG. Died and went down to level 5. Played quite a bit to get him up to level 8 over that year and decided to take on another ether threat adventure. Fought another ether hulk and died yet again and back to level 7. Then again, it was fighting the ether hulks that made me determined to take the character into holy liberator. Immunity to charms and compulsions is a blessing, and has been so many times since I think it is one of the best class abilities in the game.
clannagh 02-07-07, 12:21 AM	Other monsters that shouldn't be: Cadaver Collectors. These guys suck. There are two ways to take them out: a sorceror with orb of force, or an enlarged fighter with an adamantine weapon. I really hate these silly things, because wizards tend to run out of spells to fling at them to do damage, and archers can't do squat. I particularly detested a module that had two encounters that comprised of one of these things. Jolyon The party we fought those things with at APL 8 survived for two reasons. A druid with enough summons to distract it and stop it trampling everyone (the summoned huge crocs and dire wolves couldnt hurt it at all .. but she kept it boxed in with them) and a sorceror playing down who had orbs. It partularly nobbles archers at that APL as they cant afford more than a handful of adamantine arrows and its AC is high enough to stop almost all of the hits of even a specialised archer at lvl 8. Its one of a number of mods popping up lately where survival seems more dependant on lucky party composition than anything to do with builds or player skill. There is also an interesting tendency towards things like dimensional anchors seemingly designed solely to prevent magical running away when facing a TPK.
Japangirl 02-07-07, 01:52 AM	Cadaver Collectors. These guys suck. There are two ways to take them out: a sorceror with orb of force, or an enlarged fighter with an adamantine weapon. I really hate these silly things, because wizards tend to run out of spells to fling at them to do damage, and archers can't do squat. I particularly detested a module that had two encounters that comprised of one of these things. I have found that Golem Strike works wonders against these guys, but my rogue is extraordinarily unique in her CHA 18 for the purpose of spell-casting only. That and the (newly acquired) Ring of Freedom of Movement make her an excellent cadaver collecter killer, since our tank is large and has a 49 AC so probably won't get grappled by the stupid thing and can provide me a flank. I do have to retreat after only a round or so though, because the sheer damage of the things is really high.
solbergb 02-07-07, 02:15 AM	Yeh, our party made short work of a Cadaver Collector recently too. Tracy's cleric rushed over to save my monk and I'm going "I'm fine, really, I don't need rescuing, but since you're here, might as well give me a little healing". Even if the party's big tank hadn't given me a stone of spellstoring with benign transposition in it I would have pinned that sucker. Worked out the odds were about 90% later. Had I not rolled a "3" in my AOO it wouldn't have grappled me in the first place and then would have gotten to suck up five attacks with a constructbane weapon. Of course that was at APL14, as a mook in a multiple-monster encounter. At APL8, it would have been kind of scary
_metz_ 02-07-07, 02:28 AM	If you are playing APL 8 someone should surely have an adamantine weapon. By level 8 my Cleric will have one, possibly, and the other main fighters in our area all have either Starmetal or adamantine weapons at higher levels, or will have. And having a spare enlarge in the party's itinary isn't that hard in all honesty. Partys should carry around cold iron, silver etc, and quite frankly, Any fighter worth his levels SHOULD have an Adamantine weapon in LG. Its not like a home campaing where the monsters are based ona region or soemthing, you KNOW you are going to come up against golems, etc, and should prepare as such. Just cos a wizard can't take it out and neither can a druid without the right spells doesn't make it a module breaker. Not at APL 8 at least. By level 8 get an adamantine weapon, or a starmetal one lol, if you are a tank, what the hell is your primary weapon made of? cardboard? lol FIghter DO have thier uses I think its funny there is a module where people are fighting something the wizards can't break and are whinging... to quote OOTs: "some of my best friends are third level fighters"
Japangirl 02-07-07, 03:06 AM	Adamantine access can be very hard to get. My wizard has about three. My rogue, who actually wants some, has one and that one is at +50% cost. By APL 8, she had exactly zero adamantine access. Also, it's not a golem. It's a construct. Thus, golem bane scarabs don't work on it, so that work-around of adamantine weapons won't work either. And I don't blame the fighters for not wanting to stand next to the Cadaver Collector. It has +lots to hit, +lots to grapple, and does ridiculous amounts of damage for APL 8 especially. These guys are very tough fights, and advance well so that they stay tough at APL 14 (I know, I keep fighting them!). Infinite SR, sometimes spell turning 1-3, golem immunities but not golem type, lightning heals them, stupidly huge grapple checks, ability to grapple and pin (and not be grappled after the pin, because they spiked someone) almost anyone, and don't forget just lots of plain old damage. In short, fighters have good reasons to both A) not have adamantine weapons sometimes and B) not want to stand next to the machine of death.
Mortepierre 02-07-07, 08:08 AM	Adamantine access can be very hard to get. Agreed. My home team has done of lots of mods (regional, meta-regional, & core) and, up to now, has seen access but twice. Each time at a level where they didn't have the kind of money needed to buy it. Actually, come to think of it, it would make sense if each region (and/or meta-region) had to incorporate access to certain kinds of items (adamantine, etc..) at least once a year in one of their new mods. That way, dedicated players who have been saving $ for a long time are sure to find access if they play often enough.
Bob_the_Theurge 02-07-07, 11:13 AM	If you are playing APL 8 someone should surely have an adamantine weapon. If we had a decent graduated-access system, sure. No way that is guaranteed or even likely, the way LG's access works. I've seen fighters clear up to 14th level who have never even seen access to adamantine. This is one of the biggest gripes I have with mod writers; presuming "oh, they are level X, they should have seen this and this and this access by now." By level 8 my Cleric will have one, possibly, and the other main fighters in our area all have either Starmetal or adamantine weapons at higher levels, or will have. Good for you. My region doesn't hand out access like halloween candy. Partys should carry around cold iron, silver etc, and quite frankly, Any fighter worth his levels SHOULD have an Adamantine weapon in LG. Its not like a home campaing where the monsters are based ona region or soemthing, you KNOW you are going to come up against golems, etc, and should prepare as such. See above: FIRST YOU HAVE TO FIND ACCESS. Cold Iron? Yeah, it's core access. Silver? same. Adamantine? NO, BECAUSE IT'S NOT CORE ACCESS MATERIAL. Just cos a wizard can't take it out and neither can a druid without the right spells doesn't make it a module breaker. No, what makes them a module breaker is the fact that they are under-CR'ed. Not at APL 8 at least. By level 8 get an adamantine weapon, or a starmetal one lol, if you are a tank, what the hell is your primary weapon made of? cardboard? See above. My region doesn't hand out access like candy, and I know plenty of fighters who through simple luck of which character played which module, never found Adamantine access.
Rerednaw 02-07-07, 11:14 AM	I thought I posted about this but not finding it now. At APL2? Clay Golem. Tendriculous. Hydra. I agree that part of the problem is encounter design. Far too many LG encounters are the 'in your face/surprise' variety. My personal most memorable? Walking along a barren landscape in the middle of the day. And being surprised. By a treant. No one in the party (including a ranger) could beat the spot/listen check. For some reason the treant had a Hide of 35. Listen was about the same. I cannot find what was used to give this but the result it that a 30 foot tall creature was in grapple range before anyone realized we were under attack. Yes I know that they are NG, but this one wasn't, it was templated. I was playing a level 1 sorceror in the mod. My Grease saved the party's collective posteriors. Standard encounter distance is supposed to be 3d6 x 10 feet. I can't remember seeing a DM use that in LG. Ever. Or maybe the mod authors always roll 3 on 3d6?
LachlarlanIII 02-07-07, 11:38 AM	I thought I posted about this but not finding it now. At APL2? Clay Golem. Tendriculous. Hydra. I agree that part of the problem is encounter design. Far too many LG encounters are the 'in your face/surprise' variety. My personal most memorable? Walking along a barren landscape in the middle of the day. And being surprised. By a treant. No one in the party (including a ranger) could beat the spot/listen check. For some reason the treant had a Hide of 35. Listen was about the same. I cannot find what was used to give this but the result it that a 30 foot tall creature was in grapple range before anyone realized we were under attack. Yes I know that they are NG, but this one wasn't, it was templated. I was playing a level 1 sorceror in the mod. My Grease saved the party's collective posteriors. Standard encounter distance is supposed to be 3d6 x 10 feet. I can't remember seeing a DM use that in LG. Ever. Or maybe the mod authors always roll 3 on 3d6? If the author of that mod expected you to fight the golem, tendriculos, and hydra at that APL, then he should be shot... out of a cannon... at the moon. If the Treant was in a desolate wasteland where no plant is capable of surviving I could see where your argument was coming from. If he was in a grassland area where plants and such can survive then his hide check could be very high. As far as your characters could tell, it was just a tree until you got within arms reach of it. Lone trees in the African savannha aren't all that uncommon.
rogerd 02-07-07, 02:26 PM	I don't like the Runehound. This monster is under-CR'ed in my opinion. With DR, blindsense, good movement, a decent ranged touch attack, reach, and fast healing, it just seems way more powerful than CR3. Put one in a bank of fog, as a recent module did, and you could be looking at a TPK. Roger
_m_ 02-07-07, 06:16 PM	If you are playing APL 8 someone should surely have an adamantine weapon. By level 8 my Cleric will have one, possibly, and the other main fighters in our area all have either Starmetal or adamantine weapons at higher levels, or will have. And having a spare enlarge in the party's itinary isn't that hard in all honesty. Partys should carry around cold iron, silver etc, and quite frankly, Any fighter worth his levels SHOULD have an Adamantine weapon in LG. Its not like a home campaing where the monsters are based ona region or soemthing, you KNOW you are going to come up against golems, etc, and should prepare as such. Just cos a wizard can't take it out and neither can a druid without the right spells doesn't make it a module breaker. Not at APL 8 at least. By level 8 get an adamantine weapon, or a starmetal one lol, if you are a tank, what the hell is your primary weapon made of? cardboard? lol FIghter DO have thier uses I think its funny there is a module where people are fighting something the wizards can't break and are whinging... to quote OOTs: "some of my best friends are third level fighters" there are a few... issues that i have with this one. even though ur cleric has an adamantine weapon, he cant actually do any damage. so unless u intend to manage a round or two getting trampled and spiked in order to give it to the fighter, its not actually very usefull. even if you DO have adamantine weapons, a single trample can quite literally bulldoze the whole party. its almost like starting the encounter with the party at 20% HP. ur cleric then has to decide who to heal, and if the collector decides to go for someone else? unlucky, they're dead. grapple + spike + wash/rinse/repeat can make pretty short work of em. now here's the real kicker: assume u have an average apl8 party, something like this: wiz 8 clr 8 bard 8 rogue 8 fighter 8 now assume also, that every1 except the wizard has an adamantine weapon. now: the wizards spells are either totally ineffective (spell imunity), not great dmg, or reflected altogether (sub lvl 3) so no wizard dmg in the fight. the cleric gets to spend the whole fight healing people, because the standard written tatcits for the CC is to trample, leaving a fair portion of the party pretty critically injured. if she stops even once to buff or debuff, sum1 will propbably die. so no cleric dmg in the fight. the bard sings / buffs. he's helpfull, and keeps the party going well. so, bard dmg is in. the rogue, at lvl 8, cant hurt it, even with adamantine, so no rogue dmg in the fight. the figheter has an adamantine weapon, and is fully hardcore equiped for smacking constructs around... so, heres the new equasion for you. fighter 8, bard 8 vs under cr'd overpowered CADAVER COLLECTOR. yeah, sounds like a peice of cake to me too.
Japangirl 02-07-07, 06:42 PM	Oh yes. Let's not forget the breath weapon, Reflex save or be paralyzed for 10 rounds . . . are we assuming they all made it, m?
_m_ 02-07-07, 10:17 PM	Oh yes. Let's not forget the breath weapon, Reflex save or be paralyzed for 10 rounds . . . are we assuming they all made it, m? hmmm. well reflex dictates that, given the scores required to be any good at it and still be a useable character, that the bard, rogue, and fighter would have ok dex, so lets assume they make it. and lets be generous and say, just theoretically, that the cleric nat 20's, and sum how avoids it too. wizard dosent make it tho, tho it wouldnt matter much, hes already nearly dead from trample, and cant hurt it anyway.
Master_Bushido_Mark 02-07-07, 11:55 PM	[SPOILER FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T PLAYED CORS6-03 SHADOWS OF THE DREAD SPIRAL] I don't know about you guys, but I was playing this adventure with my roommate, and my primary characters travelling and adventure comrade, when we came across what I'd say was likely an EL+4 or better encounter. A raging large full Ogre barbarian wielding a spiked chain with 20-foot reach. He charged the first player and outright decapitated him from full health. I tried getting by him from a side room when I got AOO'd and on-the-ground bleeding with about -4 HP or so. Another good buddy of mine walked up and healed my character, stabilizing her. Then, the Ogre stepped forward and decapitated my savior, from near full health. My roommates' character stepped forward rather than running away and got killed by it as well. This thing mowed through three characters, and I was left knocked out and unconscious when the rest of the characters did the only copable thing and ran away. My character would have died if it weren't for my diplomacizing with the DM. He had role-played that the Ogre would eat a humanoid, and dump the rest of the bodies, to which I asked, "which character was eaten?" He said, "Well, he would finish you off," I argued, "well, with it's intelligence of 6, would it know I was still alive?" I had asked if he'd use a d4 to determine which character's body would get eaten (fourth player killed one encounter back in same hallway). His roll chose my roommate's character, and the rest of our bodies were thrown outside on a pile. Since I was stabilized, I woke up next day. Drug back the character who stabilized me, who had $2000 in his pocket, and got him raised with a side of debt (the American way), and buried the rest, being as my character is a Wee Jasian. That creature, even by Core special standards, was WAY too high for APL 4. Mark
Eric Anondson 02-08-07, 12:03 AM	I don't know if that was a right thing to do. Whether they want details or not, you gave them out and now people who haven't played it have a distinct advantage when they play it.
pedr 02-08-07, 12:10 AM	It's a core special. It was released at GenCon Indy then played at the various Extended Premiere sites and finally at GenCon SoCal. I am pretty sure it can't be played anywhere, now.
_metz_ 02-08-07, 01:04 AM	well both my characters who are around level 6-8 bracket both have starmetal and adamantine access. I am surprised that it hasn't cropped up in other regions. I jsut think the Cadaver collector is a really tough opponent, but it is CR monster taht has all of its CR actually factoreed into its abilities. I have played games with DMs where a lot of the CR is taken up by how crafty the creature is supposed to be. I haven't played against Cadaver collectors in LG, but when I have played agains them before it was ok. In fact LG parties are usually more combat oriented. A tough fight, but at APL 8 it should be. I see this thread as being more of a 'why are there EL7s and above at APL 4'. But hey, haven't played the mod in question so I could be wrong. and m, my cleric would lend his adamantine weapon to the fighter. He wouldnt be stupid enough to use it himself. Think that one through. As for its ludicrous grapple? Cast FoM, if you don't have a few of those around at APL 8 then frankly you deserve to be grappled. most level 7 casters should carry a scroll of this around, and I know quite a few casters who lend these out at the begininng of a game just in case. I am sorry but I just disagree, perhaps I have to play the mod.
King Kashue 02-08-07, 04:13 AM	How about "Half the Monsters in Monster Manual III"? Seriously, it seems every time I'm at a table and we're all asking "You sure you're reading the right APL?" it's a MMIII monster. The most recent "are you serious?" example was the Ragewalker. Broken out the yin yang.
Gwumph 02-08-07, 07:47 AM	Coming into this thread a bit late I know. How about this for a no-no!! Any monster that can insta-Kill 90% of Characters from low to average level for APL. I.e. Characters lv 2 to lv 4 for an APL 4 mod. My thoughts drift spefically about a fiendish Assasin vine that had 30 ft reach and could charge 20 ft. +15 to hit / +23 to grapple (even rolling 1 this vine would win most grapples) Damage 1D8+13 + (constrict) 1D8+13 = (average) 36 points for a single hit. (Average hit points) Fighter Lv 2= 20 / Lv 3= 28 / Lv 4 = 36 Ranger/Cleric Lv 2= 17 / Lv 3= 24 / Lv 4 = 31 Rogue Bard lv 2 = 12 / Lv 3 = 17 Lv 4 = 22 Wiz/Sorc Lv 2 = 9 / Lv 3 = 13 / Lv 4= 17 this monster would just about insta-kill every character. Attack /Drop PC/ AoO/Drop PC / Attack/ Drop PC / AoO/ Drop PC 2 rounds later you have 4 dead or dying PC's. You would need some very very lucky rolls to win and monsters should not be built around the hope that the Pc's will get some lucky rolls! Yes you could have plinked away with range weapons but you need magic ranged weapons to hurt it. When every Pc but a Barbarian would be dropped in a single round and its got 76 hitpoints, it just a TPK monster.
Maesto 02-08-07, 08:48 AM	Well, I've got a whole bunch of characters. My L15 wizard has access to adamantine twice (one weapon). My L11 archer found access to an adamantine greatsword at level 10. That's it. BTW, there was no way I was going to attack a Cadaver Collector with this weapon - sure way to get a dead archer. I couldn't even hit the bloody thing if I tried. However, you can alchy fire them! maybe I should take mad alchemist next level! I also kill treants by alchy-firing them!) My L7 cleric has seen access once. My L4 fighter has never seen access. My assorted level 2s have never seen access. So, 4 times in over 200 ARs. Great odds if you ask me. Jolyon
pedr 02-08-07, 08:55 AM	We have local player whose main PC is a diminutive, female sorcerer (etc ... she's 15th level now so I think there is some elemental savant and some sacred exorcist and some fatespinner in there). Until recently her most expensive possession, I believe, was a +1 adamantine ghost touch longsword (or other martial weapon). She would never dream of using it - but she got access and since then has made sure that the main fighter was able to hit constructs and incorporeal creatures! Now LG generally discourages this as you never know the actual party make up before you play, but if you have access to something, and think it is something which other people in the party really could do with but are unlikely to be able to get, sometimes it's a good idea to get it yourself, even if you aren't going to end up using it.
Rerednaw 02-08-07, 10:46 AM	Well, I've got a whole bunch of characters. My L15 wizard has access to adamantine twice (one weapon). ...So, 4 times in over 200 ARs. Great odds if you ask me. Jolyon Definitely a regional thing. I've played about 30 mods and gotten access twice. Both to the same character. (one was a hammer and the other was make up to 3 items.) Of course considering he's only level 5 and can't even begin to afford the costs...by the time he has the cash, he loses the access. (He's a wizard and has to spend most of his cash on scribing new spells and making scrolls.) Still that's 1 in 15, which while rare, isn't nearly as bad as what you have. And back on the Cadaver Collector. Everyone's assuming something automatically. That you know it has a specific DR and magic immunities. If your party doesn't know what it is, it then spends valuable actions in combat trying to find out. Even one round of 'ooops, that didn't work' can be lethal.
jstorrie 02-08-07, 12:41 PM	m - the rogue would start UMD'ing buffs or heals, if she was smart. The wizard would through down buffs, (carefully picked) summons, or battlefield control, if she was smart. So it's not like only two characters could contribute. What turns Cadaver Collectors into TPK-machines is that in a situation like the one you described, where the rogue and wizard have to fall back on uncommon tactics, many pick-up rogue or wizard players will just get confused and flounder when their main trick doesn't work.
clik_ml 02-08-07, 02:48 PM	Let me preface this by saying that I haven't read or seen the stats on a cadaver collector, but from what I've seen people describe I don't understand why a wizard isn't simply owning the cadaver collector. Grease, Web, Glitterdust, Solid Fog. These are neither affected by SR, nor spell-turning. Lay some of these on that thing and it should be crying helplessly as your party picks it to pieces with ease. For some reason many folks always cry about wizards not being able to do anything to golems and other critters with SR immunity, but the case is usually that casters still have a far, far easier time with them than anybody else ever does. Figment and/or Shadow Illusions are also a fun way to easily counter mindless constructs. If you don't have a wizard in your party, then yes, cadaver collectors are harsh. If you do have a wizard in your party, then it should be a humorous encounter where it winds up doing nothing to the good guys.
Eric Anondson 02-08-07, 03:22 PM	We have local player whose main PC is a diminutive, female sorcerer ... . Until recently her most expensive possession, I believe, was a +1 adamantine ghost touch longsword (or other martial weapon). She would never dream of using it - but she got access and since then has made sure that the main fighter was able to hit constructs and incorporeal creatures!When I first read this I was trying to think how someone could have gotten access to play a character that was the size of a bat or a toad (Diminutive) and could carry around a long sword for Medium characters to wield!:heehee
_m_ 02-08-07, 06:29 PM	well both my characters who are around level 6-8 bracket both have starmetal and adamantine access. I am surprised that it hasn't cropped up in other regions. I jsut think the Cadaver collector is a really tough opponent, but it is CR monster taht has all of its CR actually factoreed into its abilities. I have played games with DMs where a lot of the CR is taken up by how crafty the creature is supposed to be. I haven't played against Cadaver collectors in LG, but when I have played agains them before it was ok. In fact LG parties are usually more combat oriented. A tough fight, but at APL 8 it should be. I see this thread as being more of a 'why are there EL7s and above at APL 4'. But hey, haven't played the mod in question so I could be wrong. and m, my cleric would lend his adamantine weapon to the fighter. He wouldnt be stupid enough to use it himself. Think that one through. As for its ludicrous grapple? Cast FoM, if you don't have a few of those around at APL 8 then frankly you deserve to be grappled. most level 7 casters should carry a scroll of this around, and I know quite a few casters who lend these out at the begininng of a game just in case. I am sorry but I just disagree, perhaps I have to play the mod. freedom of movement only works against magical impediments. also, after a character has been spiked (in which case the dmg from the grapple and the spike has almost certainly killed them), they no longer are technically being grappled, so even if it did work, it wouldnt do anything. handing your hammer to the fighter (which i assumed you would do, if u read my post) would take a turn, which you dont really have, given the odds are that ur party has been trampled. to jstorrie: i didnt say the rogue wasnt contributing, just that it wasnt contributing damage. and the wizard, if you recall in our example, got paralyzed by the breath weapon. sure, we can asusme it didnt, but we can equally asume, if you want to go that way, that over half the party would likely fail the reflex save, stiatistically. even if the wizard gliterdusted and greased the cc up, a big attack from it will still outright KILL any character its beside. whilst techincaly, the party i mentioned, if they ALL made their saves against paralysis, and ALL didnt die from trample, and ALL had found access to adamantine (at least the combat based ones) and the wizard happened to prepare spells that work vs constructs, and u had a wizard instead of a sorc (who quite potentially might not know any usefull spells in this case) and your party had suitable devices for the rogue to UMD, and you were all spread out enough that when it did trample, you didnt all get hit again.... maybe THEN it would be an ok fight. but lets, for a second, assume the worst (and yes, it happens alot). you get surprise rounded by the cc. it tramples. the wizard dies outright, the rogue is unconcious. round 2. bard starts singing, cleric heals the rogue, fighter pulls out his adamantine weapon and is going to charge, but the cc has initiative, breathes, and paralyses the fighter and the bard. cleric then removes the paralysis, cc graples, spikes and kills. fighter charges, gets grappled, spiked and killed. everyone else is already dead, unconcious or paralysed. tpk. now, the likely scenario is a mix of the above 2, the likely outcoming being a victory with maybe half the party dead. explain to me how this qualifies as a laughably easy encounter. and metz, what party did you fight a cc with out of lgh?
_metz_ 02-08-07, 07:26 PM	m it was an online home campaign. secondly, read FoM spell. For a wizard player it shocks me that you don't know this. It REALLY does. This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin. WOW there goes the paralysis issue, the pinning on the spikes AND the grapple issue. Read your spells BEFORE you chastise someone m ;) ANd I didn't say it was laughably easy, just doable.
_m_ 02-08-07, 08:02 PM	m it was an online home campaign. secondly, read FoM spell. For a wizard player it shocks me that you don't know this. It REALLY does. This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin. WOW there goes the paralysis issue, the pinning on the spikes AND the grapple issue. Read your spells BEFORE you chastise someone m ;) ANd I didn't say it was laughably easy, just doable. fair enough on the freedom of movement. altho it dosent get you off the spikes, you arent considered grappled when ur on one. at least i think thats right, and if not, the cc definately isnt considered to be in a grapple when ur spiked, so going to try and touch some1 who is spiked would just get you ao dead. and NOT WOW, how the hell do you plan on CASTING freedom of movement, when ur paralysed? ONE person might succesfully get freedom of movemented, and agian, lets be generous and say that the cleric even manages NOT to die from an ao when she casts it. the cc then goes 'hey, that cleric just negated my paralysis', walks over, grapples n dead. also, i dont want to know WHERE u fought the cc, i want to know what the party was like. you know, the make up of the party. who was in it. on another, related tact: heres another apl 8 party: low dex fireball style blaster sorc: 6 monk fighter (unarmed attacks): 9 bard :9 rogue: 7 slightly unoptomised (due to a bad early decision) cleric 6 ftr 2 now look at ur apl8 party. sure, they're fine in most fights, blast through em in fact. how were they to know there was a cc in the last fight? now, they all come from maestos region, so none of them have adamantine, unfortunately. opening rounds, obviously, the sorc and rogue die horibly to a trample, the cleric fails abismally on the paralysis save, leaving the bard and monk to... gee i dont know... run away? my point is you cant simply decide everything goes well. You know as well as i do that our local party (contrary to what you stated before) not only dosent have any adamantine weapons, but we dont actualy HAVE ANY high level fighters! our highest lvl combat toon is a COHORT, other than that, i believe the highest fighter who actually plays is what, a 3? secondly, you cant assume freedom of movement. the casters in question are possibly, i would nearly even say probably, going to be either dead, or trying very hard NOT to be dead, in order to cast it. the asumption that randomly, out of luck, everything will fall into place is NOT a good way of deciding how easy the encounter is going to be. be practical, and assume an averagely powerfull party, like the one above, is playing. then assume the likely result of the first few combat rounds, which is probably a few people either dead or paralysed, and you have one nearly impossibel fight. and im sorry i got freedom of movement wrong, sue me. not only can i not cast lvl 4 spells with my wizard, but he also dosent have it in his spell book, nor would he waste a turn casting it here anyway, nor has he EVER cast it, nor has he EVER been in a game where its been cast. even i get things wrong sometimes *grin*
_m_ 02-08-07, 08:06 PM	m it was an online home campaign. secondly, read FoM spell. For a wizard player it shocks me that you don't know this. It REALLY does. This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin. WOW there goes the paralysis issue, the pinning on the spikes AND the grapple issue. Read your spells BEFORE you chastise someone m ;) ANd I didn't say it was laughably easy, just doable. oh and also: ... when are we going downtown? im hungry.
Japangirl 02-08-07, 08:43 PM	Erm, m, you do realize the reason your wizard never cast it is that it's a cleric/bard spell, right? So you will never ever get to cast it muahahahah!
_metz_ 02-08-07, 08:50 PM	downtown? not sure 3:00pm ish? I got some stuff I need to do before we can go shopping... Will ensure I am down before the coffee shop closes... we have to have coffee its important.
_metz_ 02-08-07, 08:57 PM	btw cadavar colelctors aren't too smart... maybe your DM played the simple construct as an intellgient NPC.
pedr 02-09-07, 02:02 AM	When I first read this I was trying to think how someone could have gotten access to play a character that was the size of a bat or a toad (Diminutive) and could carry around a long sword for Medium characters to wield!:heeheeHeh :D Darned terms of art. I blame having stayed up all night reading the new LGCS then going for a meeting with my doctoral supervisor!
Potato Weasel 02-09-07, 08:49 AM	When -every- single half orc you come across in a mod has a 20 strength without gauntlets, and if they're advanced into strange prestige classes, they're all done so. Also, dervish drow at apl4, with enough loot on the two of them to equip a -party- of level 6 pc's. Hmm, a huge advanced, fiendish assasin vine, with the run and dash feats. (basically was doing one hit kills on the party, cant remember what mod it was in) How about going through a mod full of 'zombies' that were 'special' and could do more damage because before they were ra'd they were monks. And then at the end of the mod, put in a heavily buffed 4th level wizard who readies a scorching ray against the first pc he see's. (this one was an intro mod)
Potato Weasel 02-09-07, 09:38 AM	Wow, reading more of the thread, a -lot- of people hate assasin vines. Oh, and thinking of other encounters- You're standing on deck, and suddenly all the sailors and the captain pull out spiked chains, roll initiative!! I mean, this seriously happened. Where the heck were they hiding those???
Madfox11 02-09-07, 09:58 AM	You're standing on deck, and suddenly all the sailors and the captain pull out spiked chains, roll initiative!! I mean, this seriously happened. Where the heck were they hiding those??? That sounds more like a DM error. It is quiet likely the adventure assumes a specific situation, and your actions make that situation impossible. A good DM would than make the necessary changes within the rules and than run it as closely as possible to the intent. In your case, the DM should have rolled Slight of Hand checks with the penalties due to size opposed by a Spot check from those PCs that could see the sailors with the spiked chains. On the other hand, it could also be that the sailors always walked around with spiked chains, but the DM only realized this was the case the moment the combat was triggered. Considering the danger of the seas on the Flanaess it is really not too weird that sailors run around with weapons and it is always difficult for a DM to balance with providing too much information or too little information. In this example, should he mention the weapons, alerting the player to the possibility of threachery even though the PCs would consider it normal and hence causing you to react differently (called meta-gaming)? Or should he never mention it, causing you to raise an eyebrow when you as a player are surprised by the chains even though your characters did realize they were there. The monster I personally regretted the most placing in an adventure were actually normal giant crocodiles. I actually had given the encounter a +1 EL modifier due to favorable environment (even though you would expect it to be part of the crocodiles CR considering you only will meet them in water) and even than they proved to be absolutely lethal...
pedr 02-09-07, 10:26 AM	Heh, I like the one where it's you're all on a ship and suddenly: the sailors are now all armed with shields!! I know it probably made the fight slightly easier than it should have been (and than it was playtested) but I couldn't in good conscience give them their shield bonuses when I ran it. Even having them each take a move action to ready a shield broke my sense of verisimilitude ... you would notice that a sailor had shield strapped to his back!
Madfox11 02-09-07, 10:31 AM	Yes, you would, but: (a) did they had it from the moment the PCs entered the ship and did you simply forgot to mention it or (b) did not mention it on purpose since you did not want to draw too much attention to what would otherwise be normal forgetable NPCs on the basis that sailors in Greyhawk are always armed and have shields strapped to their back. It is a bit like in the Order of the Stick where a NPC exclaims that of course he is a vital plot-hook, why else would he even make an appearance? Most players handle such information admirably, others don't. The problem is also worse in LG than in a home campaign, because due to the time constraints of convention play, there are much less red herrings in adventures and it becomes much more difficult not to meta-game even subconsciously.
rockondon 02-09-07, 10:55 AM	Personally I make small changes to modules before I run them if I find something confusing. If the sailors whipped out shields or spiked chains that weren't described previously, I'll add them in to the prior description. One module had two rooms on top of each other that accessed each other somehow and it didn't make sense to me, so I added stairs. But if I do make a change, its usually to clarify a description. If the GM is confused reading it, the players will be even more confused playing it.In this example, should he mention the weapons, alerting the player to the possibility of threachery even though the PCs would consider it normal and hence causing you to react differently (called meta-gaming)? Or should he never mention it, causing you to raise an eyebrow when you as a player are surprised by the chains even though your characters did realize they were there. personally, I think he should have mentioned the weapons. Why? Because they were there. I see your point about metagaming. Mentioning the weapons might cause the PCs to act differently, but that's incidental. If the weapons are there, they should be mentioned in the description because that's simply an accurate description. Its not right to leave things out because the PCs might metagame.
pedr 02-09-07, 10:37 PM	In the context of the module the shields were probably a mistake, really - they did not fit at all within the image presented by the box-text and encounter set-up, at least as I understood it. And while, yes, I did fail to notice they had them until I was looking up their AC and wondering how it was so high, had I noticed earlier I'd still have had the same dilemma: how can they have that and yet expect it to look like this. This is getting dangerously spoilerish, so I'll stop :)
Master_Bushido_Mark 02-10-07, 02:35 AM	I remember an APL 6 I was playing in where I had faced two Chuuls. In case you have never encountered them, they...are...nasty. Here is the pertinent information from their stat block to be aware of... Chuul (Aquaric) [MM 35] Hit Dice 11d8+44 (93 hp) Armor Class: 22 (-1 Size, +3 Dex, +10 Natural), touch 12, flat-footed 19 Grapple: +17 Full Attack: 2 Claws +12 melee (2d6+5) Special Attacks: Constrict 3d6+5, Improved Grab, Paralysis Tentacles. Special Qualities: Amphibious, Darkvision 60 ft., Immunity to Poison. Saves: Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +9. Abilities: Str 20, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 5. Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative. CR: 7 If it hits with a claw, it gets a free grapple check, with a +4 to grapple due to improved grab. If it succeeds, it gets a free constrict attack to crush you. During it's turn, it can, as a move action, place someone it has grappled onto it's paralytic tentacles. Each turn someone is in it's tentacles, they must make a DC 19 Fort Save or be paralyzed for 6 rounds. During which time, it can simply walk back into the water, with it's meal (you), and you are done. No Raise Dead without a body, and no Ressurection without an intact body part. Check out the picture of one in the Monster Manual, they are ferocious. I would have died if it weren't for my comrades cutting down the one that had me on it's tentacles. I made the Fort Save some three times before failing on a natural 1. Mark
Tarlyn Alurach 02-10-07, 03:50 PM	Let's not forget mobs. Though a good concept, it leaves a lot to be desired. Wis, Cha, Int are all 10. Movement 20, AC6. CR8 creature with 30hd plus con bonus. And that applies to ANY medium size creature. ANY medium size creature. A mob of ghouls. I'm the 6th level cleric. We have a 8th level fighter with a +1 ghost touch adamantine spiked chain. And we're in a tight space. The only people who got away were the two 4th level characters who were in the back of the group. Even with my maxed our turn check, I didn't effect the group in any way. Even when the fighter and I made our saves against the paralysis, we still took a butt load of damage. And that was BEFORE the ghouls got their respective attacks. I dropped in the second round, and the fighter follwed the next round. I got dropped trying to get out of the mob. The same thing happened to our fighter when he tried to turn tail. And that was our first run in. I was so ****** off that I had to look at the rules about them. The mob rules alone contradict the DMG and shouldn't be allowed. Or should be errata'ed. I know what they were trying to do, but the way they went about it was wrong. The mob is woefully under-CR'd. I've talked to other players and DMs that have seen that rule and they agree that the mob rules are just not broken, but shattered. Remember how I said it applies to ANY medium sized creature? Try throwing the template on, say, a group of Abyssal Ghouls. It's in the rules.
_metz_ 02-10-07, 08:46 PM	I thoroughly agree with that staement on mobs. Ghoul mobs are absolutely ridiculous. IN general there are a lot of swarms etc that are coming up, mobs and swarms annoy me, do tanlgefoot bags work? what about turning? and many other issues. I don't think the Template adds enough to the CR.
Tarlyn Alurach 02-10-07, 09:08 PM	Personally, I think that adding a mob template to anything should be a +8 CR to the base creature. It just makes more sense.
Shieldhart91 02-11-07, 03:45 AM	It's kind of bad when your Wizard's session times out because you had to read every post on this topic and tally how many of them were about the Fiendish Assassin Vines and CC's ;) Rough life, guys. That's what Standard upkeep is for. Now unlike some other people, I'm not blowing smoke up anyone here. God knows it makes me redder then a beet, so I'll just say it: I hardly see the problem people are having with Cadaver Collectors. We had a table fighting an Erinyes and a Barbed Devil (which, by the way is an EL 12 encounter with oodles of Level 6s and a Level 10 at APL 8). They decimated it. Two were power-gamers, the rest were pretty balanced. Cleric did his job, Pally did some smiting, Mounted combat did some whacking, Bard did his boosts. Where's the problem? Granted, not everyone has an awesome Bard giving Haste. Not everyone has an archer smacking things around with a good-aligned bow for about 36 points of damage per round (without crits). Not everyone has barghests that they Diplomacized with and got a 56 to cease and to act as meat shields between them and the devils. I understand that. But unless you're a straight-up slashy/stabby/beaty team with a Cleric and Wizard, it's a breeze. To be honest, I see good-aligned weapons as much as I see adamantine- which is about once in the 40 modules I've played, and the 10 I've burned to run. A Barbed Devil is almost as bad as the Cadaver Collector, and the erinyes dealing about 18 x arrow damage? I think it equals out. Let's make this the rule, not the exception: most cadaver collectors are dangerous critters. That is definetly NOT a charging situation. That is a "Well fellas, I got my fifty vials of alchemist fire...someone cast fly on me...I'm going in." :rolleyes: --- Forgot why my main reason why I was posting... Introductory mod with an entomber. Discuss.
bhale187 02-11-07, 06:09 PM	At APL2 we ran across a mindflayer (CR 8 I think) that the mod writer clearly intended the party NOT enter combat against, and gave ample opportunity for us to avoid fighting. Our Rogue opens the door sees the mindflayer and it uses telepathy to say something to the effect of "get out". He says 'so sorry my mistake' and closes the door. Rogue comes running back, screaming about a mindflayer. I instantly think to my self -It's APL 2, must be an illusion, but thats metagaming I should just run-. A Paladin of the group runs to about 20 feet short of the door and stops. He ponders for a moment what to do, and then our Hvy Infantry Tank charges by him into the room. Close on his heels is the paladin. Hvy Infantry guy gets a low dmg crit, paladin gets a decent hit and the swashbuckler/ranger runs in behind them also getting off 2 hits (duel rapiers). The remaining 3 party members here clanging and a listen check determines they drop their weapons to the ground. Round 2 Another Paladin of the group enters the room and gets a mind blast before she can attack and she drops her weapon. Our other ranger shoots an arrow and gets a low crit on the mindflayer. My Cleric makes a roll of 1 for a diplomacy check to beg the mindflayer to let us go. Round 3 Mind Flayer blasts again, both the ranger and I make the save. Ranger runs up to pull out the Paladin, and I try diplomacy again to obviously no avail. Round 4 Mind Flayer telepathically convinces ranger to run away, and I charge in club in hand to get a critical hit. The mindflayer plane shifts (at 2 HP) The party wakes up to me (cleric 2 of Atroa) flexing and talking smack about how the ranger ran off and I whooped the mindflayer single handed. That was one of the most fun and funny combats I have ever had. We had some good RPing from players and the DM, and besides how many people can say they took out a mindflayer at APL 2.
solbergb 02-11-07, 06:26 PM	Yeh...my APL4 party once defeated an EL13 untiered divine caster. Caught it in a sculpted grease/silence situation with fighter types sundering comp pouch and holy symbols. He still almost killed us all, and his AC alone probably would have saved him if my sorceress didn't have a nigh-endless supply of magic missiles. He probably didn't buff enough before trying to bluff us. But...that's the hazard of introducing untiered encounters. We'd gone through a horrible day trying to keep a hugely dangerous chaos kid from escaping or being carried off by chaos monsters. We weren't letting some stranger we met on the road anywhere near him. Most tables, he could just ignore PC attempts to stop him and plane shift away with the kid. We had the right mix of abilities to get him into enough trouble that he had to fight back for real. Although I think given his motivations if he'd regained the upper hand he wouldn't have bothered to finish us off. He'd have plane shifted the kid away and anyone who had run away would have had a chance to come back, stabilize the dying and recover the dead.
clannagh 02-25-07, 06:32 PM	If you are playing APL 8 someone should surely have an adamantine weapon. By level 8 my Cleric will have one, possibly, and the other main fighters in our area all have either Starmetal or adamantine weapons at higher levels, or will have. And having a spare enlarge in the party's itinary isn't that hard in all honesty. Partys should carry around cold iron, silver etc, and quite frankly, Any fighter worth his levels SHOULD have an Adamantine weapon in LG. Its not like a home campaing where the monsters are based ona region or soemthing, you KNOW you are going to come up against golems, etc, and should prepare as such. Just cos a wizard can't take it out and neither can a druid without the right spells doesn't make it a module breaker. Not at APL 8 at least. By level 8 get an adamantine weapon, or a starmetal one lol, if you are a tank, what the hell is your primary weapon made of? cardboard? lol FIghter DO have thier uses I think its funny there is a module where people are fighting something the wizards can't break and are whinging... to quote OOTs: "some of my best friends are third level fighters" Interesting plan you have there. Lets consider first why no-one was discussing deliberately putting fighters into melee. Could it possibly be that you would need to have the combat tactical prowess of a goldfish to even consider it? Lets look at it more closely. Point one. Your beloved adamantine weapons at level 8. Firstly you need access. I have one character out of my 5 currently in play that has access to adamantine. Yes YOUR characters have access .. but thats because in the 6 months you have been playing you have power levelled two characters playing every available year 5 and 6 (and probably part of year 7) core regional and metaregional mods. Normal people's PCs do not always get access for a long time if ever. Point 2. A damage producer is unlikely to even bother with adamantine at level 8 he does not need it. When you do 2d6 + stupid damage why spend money on adamantine just for the once in 6 months mod it add a touch more damage ? Yeah you can strut around and say "hey look at me I am a big man ... my dwarf has an adamantine warhammer" but do not be suprised if people snicker when you are not looking. Point 3. The adamantine comments earlier were specifically related to archers and spring attackers who cannot power past high DR .. not melee fighters. OK .. lets assume you actually DO have a fighter with an adamantine weapon. So your melee fighter has faced up to this thing. The creature has two attacks that AVERAGE in the 30's to hit and auto-hit any armor above 24 or so unless your dm rolls 1's. Each hit deals an average of 28 damage per hit for a total of 56 average damage a round. Each hit then gives the creature a FREE grapple attempt with a plus to grapple in excess of 30 if you are medium sized for another 20 or so damage. If you fail the grapple and aer medium you can be spiked teh next round and take continual damage every round. SO ... our big tough fighter immediately needs either enlarge person to avoid being spiked or if he is really really lucky a Druid who happens to have burnt a high level spell on freedom of movement (at level 8 not likely unless someone metagamed). OK ... lets assume someone has spent 250gc on an overpriced (CL5) enlarge potion or you are just lucky enough to have a caster about. Once he is enlare he can't be spiked anymore so chances are the critter will not bother with the grapple (it is after all a cadaver collector and large bodies are no use) .. but he is still taking an average of 50+ damage a round, fortunately in two hits so no need to make a massive damage save. With that sort of damage healing is necessary but we can just put a cleric behind him cant we ? WRONG ... two characters together is a perfect opportunity for the high fort save or be paralysed breath attack on them both or more likely as soon as the critter sees two people in a row it will trample with a reflex save just short of 30 to avoid average damage up around 40 somewhere to everyone in its path. Oh yes .. and if you think using several level 8 fighters ALL with adamantine weapons .. do remember the thing has great cleave. Now there are ways to kill these critters and higher APL parties can do it without a problem .. they may even send in a grapple monkey to take it on in grapple so the rest of the party can pound it with immunity. That is not the point ... the original poster said that the creature is too strong at APL8. Not unkillable at APL8 (they are not, we killed two in one APL8 mod with a 4 person party). Your counter claim that the monster is actually correct for the APL and its just that players are stupid not to have adamantine at level 8 is just ludicrous.
clannagh 02-25-07, 06:34 PM	If you are playing APL 8 someone should surely have an adamantine weapon. By level 8 my Cleric will have one, possibly, and the other main fighters in our area all have either Starmetal or adamantine weapons at higher levels, or will have. And having a spare enlarge in the party's itinary isn't that hard in all honesty. Partys should carry around cold iron, silver etc, and quite frankly, Any fighter worth his levels SHOULD have an Adamantine weapon in LG. Its not like a home campaing where the monsters are based ona region or soemthing, you KNOW you are going to come up against golems, etc, and should prepare as such. Just cos a wizard can't take it out and neither can a druid without the right spells doesn't make it a module breaker. Not at APL 8 at least. By level 8 get an adamantine weapon, or a starmetal one lol, if you are a tank, what the hell is your primary weapon made of? cardboard? lol FIghter DO have thier uses I think its funny there is a module where people are fighting something the wizards can't break and are whinging... to quote OOTs: "some of my best friends are third level fighters" Interesting plan you have there. Lets consider first why no-one was discussing deliberately putting fighters into melee. Could it possibly be that you would need to have the combat tactical prowess of a goldfish to even consider it? Before I go on .. a disclaimer .. this post is a reply to a comment about putting a melee fighter into combat with a cadaver collector .. I am WELL AWARE of the dozens of other things that will kill these guys .. including the fact that my paladin at 9 will kill it in two rounds with ride by's. Lets look at the melee fighter idea more closely. Point one. Your beloved adamantine weapons at level 8. Firstly you need access. I have one character out of my 5 currently in play that has access to adamantine. Yes YOUR characters have access .. but thats because in the 6 months you have been playing you have power levelled two characters playing every available year 5 and 6 (and probably part of year 7) core regional and metaregional mods. Normal people's PCs do not always get access for a long time if ever. Point 2. A damage producer is unlikely to even bother with adamantine at level 8 as he simply does not normally need it. When you do 2d6 + stupid damage why spend money on adamantine just for the once in 6 months mod it add a touch more damage ? Yeah you can strut around and say "hey look at me I am a big man ... my dwarf has an adamantine warhammer" but do not be suprised if people snicker when you are not looking. Point 3. The adamantine comments earlier were specifically related to archers and spring attackers who cannot power past high DR .. not melee fighters. OK .. lets assume you actually DO have a fighter with an adamantine weapon. So your melee fighter has faced up to this thing. The creature has two attacks that AVERAGE in the 30's to hit and auto-hit any armor above 24 or so unless your dm rolls 1's. Each hit deals an average of 28 damage per hit for a total of 56 average damage a round on you. On the other hand you are hitting an AC up around 30 and even with adamantine are likely to need power attack to do enough damage to dint it. So you may be lucky if you do 20 damage a round. Each hit then gives the creature a FREE grapple attempt with a plus to grapple in excess of 30 if you are medium sized for another 20 or so damage. If you fail the grapple and aer medium you can be spiked teh next round and take continual damage every round. SO ... our big tough fighter immediately needs either enlarge person to avoid being spiked or if he is really really lucky a Druid who happens to have burnt a high level spell on freedom of movement (at level 8 not likely unless someone metagamed). OK ... lets assume someone has spent 250gc on an overpriced (CL5) enlarge potion or you are just lucky enough to have a caster about. Once he is enlare he can't be spiked anymore so chances are the critter will not bother with the grapple (it is after all a cadaver collector and large bodies are no use) .. but he is still taking an average of 50+ damage a round, fortunately in two hits so no need to make a massive damage save. With that sort of damage healing is necessary but we can just put a cleric behind him cant we ? WRONG ... two characters together is a perfect opportunity for the high fort save or be paralysed breath attack on them both or more likely as soon as the critter sees two people in a row it will trample with a reflex save just short of 30 to avoid average damage up around 40 somewhere to everyone in its path. Oh yes .. and if you think using several level 8 fighters ALL with adamantine weapons .. do remember the thing has great cleave. Now there are ways to kill these critters and higher APL parties can do it without a problem .. they may even send in a grapple monkey to take it on in grapple so the rest of the party can pound it with immunity. That is not the point ... the original poster said that the creature is too strong at APL8. Not unkillable at APL8 (they are not, we killed two in one APL8 mod with a 4 person party). NOW .. tehre a lot of GOOD arguments as to why this thing is not as scarey as it looks. Ride by attacks and sprin attacks for example will work well but your claim that the monster is actually correct for the APL and its just that players are stupid not to have adamantine at level 8 is just ludicrous.
_metz_ 02-25-07, 06:51 PM	Stop personally attacking me buddy, I aint the only one who said Cadaver Collecters aren't that tough. At APL 8 I have seen some worse things. By APL 8 I should think people should have Enlarge potions if necessary. Yes, I will admit the Adamantine could be an issue, but then I would expect the mod writer to provide one in game perhaps - then give access, or so on. Furthermore, If none of that characters have access, then its not really the creatures fault. Cadaver collecters weren't created for LG - they were created for DnD. hence they assume some stuff that can't be completely covered. It is up to the mod writers and regional tried to ensure that releveant monsters are in their modules. Hence a Triad that gave no Adamantine access and attacked people with adamantine dmg reduction creatures are NOT playing creatures that are too powerful, but rather creatures that are unfair based on campagin condisitons. Like I said, a well equipped party that had the items it 'probably' should have had access to would be able to deal with it ok. I think things like Ghoul mobs etc are what completely break the CR system. FInally, I would like to Add, casting Vigor on the fighter, and having some healers in behind him whilst he properly tanks would do a lot of good. Coupled with healthful rest, which can be cast every day, your fighter will heal 4 hitpoints every round. A standard trick. Secondly, a tanglefoot bag would work wonders on this thing. A few Sound bursts would slow the thing down rather well too. A few stone shapes etc if you had them (very unlikely) would deal 1d6 points of damage per caster level as well. Hit it with a sound burst - slowed, then enlarge fighter - then tanglefoot bag it. Now you control the battlefeild.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-25-07, 06:55 PM	Let's not forget mobs. Though a good concept, it leaves a lot to be desired. Wis, Cha, Int are all 10. Movement 20, AC6. CR8 creature with 30hd plus con bonus. And that applies to ANY medium size creature. ANY medium size creature. A mob of ghouls. I'm the 6th level cleric. We have a 8th level fighter with a +1 ghost touch adamantine spiked chain. And we're in a tight space. The only people who got away were the two 4th level characters who were in the back of the group. Even with my maxed our turn check, I didn't effect the group in any way. Even when the fighter and I made our saves against the paralysis, we still took a butt load of damage. And that was BEFORE the ghouls got their respective attacks. I dropped in the second round, and the fighter follwed the next round. I got dropped trying to get out of the mob. The same thing happened to our fighter when he tried to turn tail. And that was our first run in. I was so ****** off that I had to look at the rules about them. The mob rules alone contradict the DMG and shouldn't be allowed. Or should be errata'ed. I know what they were trying to do, but the way they went about it was wrong. The mob is woefully under-CR'd. I've talked to other players and DMs that have seen that rule and they agree that the mob rules are just not broken, but shattered. Remember how I said it applies to ANY medium sized creature? Try throwing the template on, say, a group of Abyssal Ghouls. It's in the rules. It sounds like the mobs were run terribly wrong for you. First of all, a mob of anything is treated as a single entity with regard to actions. The creatures making up the mob are incapable of taking actions on their own, so the only damage you should have been taking is the 5d6 damage for being in the mob's area. Secondly, with your turning attempts, you would have been able to affect specific ghouls within the mob, and each individual ghuol turned gives the mob 2 negative levels. I don't really see what's so threatening about mobs if you follow the rules in DMG 2. They are really just bigger swarms with more HP...
solbergb 02-26-07, 09:43 AM	I don't really see what's so threatening about mobs if you follow the rules in DMG 2. They are really just bigger swarms with more HP... The problem with the ghoul mobs isn't the damage or the hit dice with respect to turning (As you say, you can turn individuals to inflict neg levels). The problem is that the fort save DC for paralysis is based on constitution AND hit dice. So instead of DC14, it's "roll a 20 or be paralyzed" time. Also the grapple DC's are stupidly high on mobs for their CR, and they get automatic grapple checks on anything they can touch.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-26-07, 02:44 PM	The problem with the ghoul mobs isn't the damage or the hit dice with respect to turning (As you say, you can turn individuals to inflict neg levels). The problem is that the fort save DC for paralysis is based on constitution AND hit dice. So instead of DC14, it's "roll a 20 or be paralyzed" time. Also the grapple DC's are stupidly high on mobs for their CR, and they get automatic grapple checks on anything they can touch. Ah, that makes sense. Not much hope of freedom of movement at APL 6 either...
Vamroc 02-26-07, 03:40 PM	I nearly TPK'ed a party with a Salt Mephit as a first time DM in an intro mod. If you perform the right actions It's possible to TPK a party with a Salt Mephit every time. While this is no fun for the player the DM should find it very funny.
Paul H 02-28-07, 08:04 PM	Hi In one of the mods (a core special) at APL 8 we came across two successive mobs - ghouls & ghasts IIRC. No sooner than we destroyed one, then the other appeared. Most of the turning from the 'proper' cleric didn't seem to do much good, I managed to 'delay' them with my tan bag of tricks & successive spells. (Bit dodgy casting Hail of Stone with a mob a that close.......). :mage: Not sure if it's the same mod, but we would also have been ambushed by couple Mohrgs if I hadn't sent a summoned (Tan Bag Tricks) Hvy Warhorse to 'scout' an obvious ambush. (That Bag of Tricks got used every mod I had it at Conception this year. Bit expensive, but saved us on more than one occasion. Still haven't had the Rhino, yet). :(
Timlagor 02-28-07, 08:25 PM	Now what you want is a nice evil claeric with your ghoul mobs to give them a bit of bolstering :)
Grovar 03-01-07, 01:00 AM	The one monster that I would complain about was the greater barghest with assassin levels at APL4 in a regional module (not my home region). Now, it took some doing to get to that particular fight, but with its invisibility on at the start, and no reason to figure out that something is wrong (no offer of spot/listen checks). Then, BAM! and one failed fortitude save later, one dead level 4 druid. Add in the fact that I did not remember that I could get a reduced-cost Resurrection (and DM did not help me there), I ended up having to retire that PC. I would also add an awakened raccoon with druid levels, but since the Circle got rid of that spell, we have little chance of seeing them again.
clik_ml 03-01-07, 01:36 AM	I nearly TPK'ed a party with a Salt Mephit as a first time DM in an intro mod. If you perform the right actions It's possible to TPK a party with a Salt Mephit every time. While this is no fun for the player the DM should find it very funny. Okay, you got me intrigued. Only thing that comes close to annoying with them is their fly speed when bundled with potential fast healing and DR. If your group has no decent archery ability then you are gonna suffer. Of course this goes for every mephit who gets to fight in favorable terrain. If the mephit isn't flying, then it should be dead in 2 rounds roughly. A flying creature in an intro mod with DR and fast healing in addition to a breath weapon is going to pose some problems... but this goes for every single mephit. Salt mephits just have an easy means of acquiring fast healing if the writer wants to be a tool.
jstorrie 03-01-07, 05:05 AM	Now, it took some doing to get to that particular fight, but with its invisibility on at the start, and no reason to figure out that something is wrong (no offer of spot/listen checks)... If the DM made the checks in secret, okay. If there were no Listens at all while the Barghest snuck up on you, though, and it wasn't magically silenced, then some mistake was made.
JohnduBois 03-01-07, 07:13 AM	I would also add an awakened raccoon with druid levels, but since the Circle got rid of that spell, we have little chance of seeing them again. I would just like to point out that banning the spell doesn't ban the creatures already created with it... Plus, (and I haven't checked this with Britt yet, so don't hold me to it), I think the restriction only prevents the casting of the spell. There's nothing saying those raccoons aren't being awakened by a means other than the awaken spell, and since it's being done off-camera... *whistles innocently*
blood_kite 03-01-07, 12:33 PM	Bone Naga at APL 8 at the end of a mod where resting meant that the mod was over. The only mitigating factor for this fight I can think of is that it first attempts to trick you into just leaving since you've accomplished what you came to do and you don't know what it is. The fight takes place on a flat, featureless plain against something with long range spells and perfect flight. "Let's toss in a CR 11 creature that casts as a 14th level sorcerer after the party has expended resources. Sure it has spell slots 3 levels higher than the PC's and Disintegrate on its spell list, but a twinked out RS might be able to turn it so it's all good."
King Kashue 03-01-07, 12:49 PM	I would just like to point out that banning the spell doesn't ban the creatures already created with it... Plus, (and I haven't checked this with Britt yet, so don't hold me to it), I think the restriction only prevents the casting of the spell. There's nothing saying those raccoons aren't being awakened by a means other than the awaken spell, and since it's being done off-camera... *whistles innocently* So...Where's the "We're here to beat John to death" line gonna form?...I want to get there early :D
ithardin 03-01-07, 03:00 PM	My contribution: Grell (pg. 107 Lords of Madness) Full attack: 10 tentacles and a bite (only +5 and 1d4+1 damage, but they have TEN tentacles!). They have improved grab, paralysis, constriction damage (1d6+1 on a successful grapple check), etc. They are +17 to grapple. CR: 3.
Landale 03-01-07, 03:25 PM	I've seen a few really really really stupid encounters recently. These are just a couple: APL4 - A tendriculous...with a table of 2 level 3's and 4 level 2's. Mind you, due to the APL calculation rules (where even if it's 3.2, they're a 4), they couldn't play APL2. APL4 (again...=P) - Two (lvl 3, I think) monks hiding IN (note: IN) a canyon wall with readied actions to 5' move and then trip the first character that passes with spiked chains, and then proceed to slaughter him. They had +10s to their trip checks. Oh...did I forget to mention the level 4 cleric they had with them as well? This one was done at a similarly composed table as mentioned above. The mod writers need to re-evaluate certain encounters before releasing them. Play testing with the perfect mix of characters is NOT play testing...it's pitting optimal vs. optimal =P, which is rarely ever the case.
King Kashue 03-01-07, 03:54 PM	APL4 - A tendriculous...with a table of 2 level 3's and 4 level 2's. Mind you, due to the APL calculation rules (where even if it's 3.2, they're a 4), they couldn't play APL2. You've misunderstood how to figure APL. You round off. 3.2 (or in this case, 3.33) is rounded to 3, they can play up or down. 3.5 is where it's rounded to 4, and they're forced to play up.
Grovar 03-01-07, 04:54 PM	I would just like to point out that banning the spell doesn't ban the creatures already created with it... Plus, (and I haven't checked this with Britt yet, so don't hold me to it), I think the restriction only prevents the casting of the spell. There's nothing saying those raccoons aren't being awakened by a means other than the awaken spell, and since it's being done off-camera... *whistles innocently* So...Where's the "We're here to beat John to death" line gonna form?...I want to get there early :D Outside of the fact that you have run a couple of online cores for me, I'd really would have to think about being in that line. Besides, after that spell got banned, there was an awakened bird in a core module, but only as a plot hook. Now if you decide to kill a certain cat named Nacky, I'll heap praises on you. :waits:
solbergb 03-01-07, 10:06 PM	Bone Naga at APL 8 at the end of a mod where resting meant that the mod was over. That version of the mod only went in draft. Part of the feedback included my playtests that averaged two deaths per battle with this monster and two actual TPK's in about a dozen attempts at various APL's (the highest APL's were safer). Hint. Repeated maximized arc of lightnings at caster level 16 at APL10 is over the top. The one premier of the mod used eratta that among other things dropped the power of the naga by about 2 CR's the mod was pulled for editing after the premier, then pulled permanently. Yes...even the editors/authors/playtesters agreed that that monster shouldn't have been at that APL. Bone Nagas should be minimum CR=sorcerer caster level. Period. No exceptions. Ignore the "CR" entry on the stupid monster manual book that it comes from. It's wrong.
blood_kite 03-02-07, 12:30 AM	That version of the mod only went in draft. The one premier of the mod used eratta that among other things dropped the power of the naga by about 2 CR's the mod was pulled for editing after the premier, then pulled permanently. I played it a couple of weeks ago and when our GM looked over the stat block he could find nothing that suggested that this thing had received any sort of downgrading. Any chance we could talk about this one offline?
rockondon 03-02-07, 02:58 AM	I think it would be interesting to compile a list of the nastiest monsters at various CRs, and the weakest monsters at those same CRs. That would really show the disparity in the challenge rating system. I'm too lazy to do it myself of course :P
clik_ml 03-02-07, 08:27 AM	I think it would be interesting to compile a list of the nastiest monsters at various CRs, and the weakest monsters at those same CRs. That would really show the disparity in the challenge rating system. Trouble is that many (if not all) creatures can range from incredibly deadly to an easy encounter based upon the circumstances surrounding an encounter. Example: Scrags can be really easy to defeat on land (they're slow, and not regenerating). If the party is on a raft in shallow water, scrags could be a TPK. Stuff like a colossal scorpion can crush players who want to melee it, but it's a stupid bug that can be picked apart by just staying out of its reach.
Landale 03-02-07, 03:19 PM	/Threadjack on You've misunderstood how to figure APL. You round off. 3.2 (or in this case, 3.33) is rounded to 3, they can play up or down. 3.5 is where it's rounded to 4, and they're forced to play up. This isn't me. The people saying this are the DMs in my region. Every last one of them is talking about this rule. I agree with you, but I've been told countless times that if you're even a 3.1 table, you're 4. Can you please show me where it says that it would round to 3 so that I can talk to all of my DMs about this crap? Thanks =D. /Threadjack off
Japangirl 03-02-07, 05:18 PM	It's in the LGCS, p. 3. LG adventures are written for ranges of average party levels (APLs). APLs determine the level of challenges you face and rewards you receive. If you are more than two levels away from the APL at which the adventure is being played, you suffer a 50% penalty to GP and XP gained in the adventure. Calculate APL by summing the levels of all characters participating, adding any animals as specified in Chapter 5 of this document. Divide this total by the number of players and round to the nearest whole number, adding one to the result for tables of six characters. If you are more than three levels higher than the APL at which the adventure is being played, you cannot participate. 2 3's and 4 2's comes out to be 2.33, round down to 2, add 1 for 6 makes 3, and then you get to pick and you pick to play APL 2. Your DM just messed up his/her math badly on that one.
HypnoticMonk 03-02-07, 06:50 PM	In my 2nd Keoland mod, we encountered a vampire at APL 2 ( oddly enough, he was a LOT easier to beat than his spawn who we fought in the previous encounter... but that's the difference between 2 scorching ray spells hitting for almost maximum damage on both and 2 misses) Worse than that, though, was a hydra we recently fought with an all 1st level party ::: shudder:::
DroidTrooper 03-02-07, 08:19 PM	/Threadjack on This isn't me. The people saying this are the DMs in my region. Every last one of them is talking about this rule. I agree with you, but I've been told countless times that if you're even a 3.1 table, you're 4. Thanks =D. /Threadjack off The problem lies in the Modules themselves. At some point, the made the change to the Standard in the LGCS (which is what you should use) however when you look in the modules themselves there is a lack of consistency. If you look under Living Greyhawk Levels of Play (generally on the second or third page of a module) you get different messages. I don’t really know how the mods are published, but its probably someone(s) just copying and pasting the same outdated message over and over again. For example: PAL5-01, NMR5-01 says: “Sum the results of step 1 and 2, and divide by the number of character playing in the adventure. Round to the nearest whole number.” PAL5-02, PAL6-05 says: “Sum the results of step 1 and 2, and divide by the number of character playing in the adventure. Round up to the nearest whole number.”
solbergb 03-02-07, 08:42 PM	I played it a couple of weeks ago and when our GM looked over the stat block he could find nothing that suggested that this thing had received any sort of downgrading. Any chance we could talk about this one offline? I don't know how you got it if you're talking about the same module, since it was pulled from ordering after the premiere (November 2006). Perhaps more than one metaregion used a bone naga this year? Arg. Bad editors. No Moutain Dew for you! and VERY bad authors. Bad bad bad!
Gallaway 03-04-07, 07:00 PM	Stuff like a colossal scorpion can crush players who want to melee it, but it's a stupid bug that can be picked apart by just staying out of its reach. But really amusing when you get players/PC's that believe any strategy other than a full frontal charge with power attack is devious.
Samwise 03-04-07, 07:16 PM	But really amusing when you get players/PC's that believe any strategy other than a full frontal charge with power attack is devious. There are strategies other than FFA? /me disbelieves
Lupo 03-04-07, 08:06 PM	There are strategies other than FFA? /me disbelieves of course there is something else than Full Frontal Attack, FAST FULL FRONTAL ATTACK :D this method works 3 out of 4 cases, but when it fails you are really in trouble :P ciao martin m. who actually has no character doing this silly thing, apart from the halfling druid sitting atop a pouncing tiger, buffed to all teeth and claws and flying if necessary ;)
Haro 03-04-07, 09:33 PM	My contribution: Grell (pg. 107 Lords of Madness) Full attack: 10 tentacles and a bite (only +5 and 1d4+1 damage, but they have TEN tentacles!). They have improved grab, paralysis, constriction damage (1d6+1 on a successful grapple check), etc. They are +17 to grapple. CR: 3. Oh God, I still hear the horror stories from people about Secrets of Tsojcanth at mid-level. At the last minute, my Swashbuckler mutt (whose AR levelling him to 10th was still wet) got taken from an APL 8 table (mid) to an APL 12 table (high). Judging by the near TPK that table had from the Grells, I'm happy with the change... Joe
blood_kite 03-04-07, 10:45 PM	I don't know how you got it if you're talking about the same module, since it was pulled from ordering after the premiere (November 2006). Perhaps more than one metaregion used a bone naga this year? Arg. Bad editors. No Moutain Dew for you! and VERY bad authors. Bad bad bad! Well I just found out the one I'm talking about was pulled as well after I played it at OrcCon a couple of weeks ago in Los Angeles.
King Kashue 03-04-07, 11:00 PM	Well I just found out the one I'm talking about was pulled as well after I played it at OrcCon a couple of weeks ago in Los Angeles. And it wasn't really pulled for that :D
Hariman 03-05-07, 10:49 PM	I've only got one problem monster right now. Chain Devils at APL 4. Now, they're not incredibly hard encounters. Even at APL 4 they're beatable. I should know, I was in a 4 man APL 4 party that killed one without much trouble. BUT, we were lucky. We didn't have a run of bad rolls and we had a good party mix. The SR, the multiple ranged chain attacks, the DR, we were lucky that we could get by them. The second problem that I have is: Mods with an "out" to above APL encounters. I've seen at least one mod where you can do something special, or come to an encounter at the right time, and get an offer from an enemy that will let the party have it easier. Anybody who played COR5-02, The Voice of Reason, knows what I mean. The big problem with "outs" is that they take away from the fun of the game. It's the writer's way of saying "this is too big for you, so you get carried through if you're lucky". And if you're not lucky, you end up running and lose out on XP, access, and gold. Or getting TPK'd with the DM saying "how could you miss that". I DO have one more, much more pressing issue with mods/encounters. FAR FAR FAR too many mods I've seen have multiple encounters set above the APL without a chance to rest. According to the DMG, a normal, iconic party can handle 3 or 4 "at level" encounters in a day. Most of these encounters are APL +1 or +2. Some are APL +3. Having an APL +2 encounter then an APL +3 encounter with no chance to rest in between is inviting TPKs. I've actually encountered a COR mod with not one but TWO, yes TWO APL +3 encounters in a row, with no chance to rest in between. I wish I could say more, but it's an active mod. It also had one of the WORST stories that I have ever heard. But it isn't fatal if you fail. That seems to be the justification of the mod writer. Whose mods I'll avoid. Heck. I'll probably make sure the character that never goes back there. There are worse AR penalties than death. If you've played it, you know what I mean. If you haven't, you'll understand when you read the AR. You'll probably hate it if you fail. It was a mod so bad that the DM that ran it was HAPPY that he ate the mod. I KID YOU NOT. Hariman PS: One last thing. SPIKED BLEEPING CHAINS, GREATAXES, SCIMITARS, SCYTHES, RAPIERS AND ANY OTHER "OPTIMUM WEAPON" IN THE HANDS OF NPCS. STOP GIVING THE NPCS THE BEST EQUIPMENT, LACKEYS WILL NOT ALWAYS HAVE THE PERFECT HIGH DAMAGE CRIT OR LARGE CRIT RANGE WEAPONS. PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, GIVE THE NPCs REGULAR, NON-OPTIMIZED WEAPONS. It'll at least make encounters more memorable when the enemies aren't all wielding the same five or ten weapons over and over and OVER again. The only named weapon on that list that I haven't seen at least five to ten times in my 31 ARs is the scythe. Not all NPCs need to have the best weapons to use on PCs. Heck, lackeys will probably choose basic "trusty rusty" weapons over the "good" weapons. I especially hate spiked chains in the hands of orcs and half orcs. That is irritating cheese that should be discarded. Especially in ANY terrain.
boolean 03-06-07, 02:23 AM	Besides, after that spell got banned, there was an awakened bird in a core module, but only as a plot hook. If I'm thinking of the same mod you were, it wasn't awakened, it was a raven familiar. They have the ability to speak a language.
Madfox11 03-06-07, 04:54 AM	Chain Devils at APL 4. Now, they're not incredibly hard encounters. Even at APL 4 they're beatable. I should know, I was in a 4 man APL 4 party that killed one without much trouble. BUT, we were lucky. We didn't have a run of bad rolls and we had a good party mix. The SR, the multiple ranged chain attacks, the DR, we were lucky that we could get by them. They hardly deal damage... I know that most players in my region consider these devils weak for their CR. In a particular core all the players were blind, and they faced 4 of them. It was an irritating combat, but even with a suboptimal party at APL 8 and a cleric drained to level 2 did they survive that encounter easily. Mods with an "out" to above APL encounters. I've seen at least one mod where you can do something special, or come to an encounter at the right time, and get an offer from an enemy that will let the party have it easier. Anybody who played COR5-02, The Voice of Reason, knows what I mean. The big problem with "outs" is that they take away from the fun of the game. It's the writer's way of saying "this is too big for you, so you get carried through if you're lucky". And if you're not lucky, you end up running and lose out on XP, access, and gold. Or getting TPK'd with the DM saying "how could you miss that". ::shrug:: Many people actually like such role-playing options, because that is what it is. FAR FAR FAR too many mods I've seen have multiple encounters set above the APL without a chance to rest. According to the DMG, a normal, iconic party can handle 3 or 4 "at level" encounters in a day. Most of these encounters are APL +1 or +2. Some are APL +3. Having an APL +2 encounter then an APL +3 encounter with no chance to rest in between is inviting TPKs. I've actually encountered a COR mod with not one but TWO, yes TWO APL +3 encounters in a row, with no chance to rest in between. I wish I could say more, but it's an active mod. It also had one of the WORST stories that I have ever heard. Actually, the DMG rules are way too conservative in this regards. I have been running and writing for LG for 7 years now, and APL +0 encounters do not drain resources at all, and the Core specials actually are 6 to 8 APL +2 to APL +3 encounters in a row and many groups make it to the end or at least to 2/3rds of the adventure (and some of those encounters are actually designed using particular strong monsters, it is the whole idea of core specials). This is especially true at mid to high levels. Also keep in mind that most LG adventures actually work best with 5 or 6 PC parties and not with the 4 parties. The last should always be more careful, since not only do they have less resources, they are also much more susceptible to bad dice rolling. I suspect the real reason why those combats were particular bad where in no particular order of importance: bad player tactics, DM errors, incorrectly CRed monsters, monsters that due to chance are particularly effective against your group (e.g. dire beasts have low AC, high hp, you need a heavy hitter or else they become a lot more powerful), incorrectly applied terrain modifiers (either by the DM or the author - these are particular easy to miss in play tests because groups can avoid these, sometimes particularly successful, without ever realizing they did). In any event, it is best to contact whomever is responsible for the adventure and tell them what you did and didn't like so that they learn from the mistakes. Remain polite though, and try to read the actual adventure beforehand. I know of adventures that have been pulled, and even more that got changed because of such complaints. But it isn't fatal if you fail. That seems to be the justification of the mod writer. Whose mods I'll avoid. Heck. I'll probably make sure the character that never goes back there. There are worse AR penalties than death. It could be. I don't know the adventure, nor the author. More often than not though, the real reason is that in practice the DMG is incorrect when it comes to the amount of encounters you can have on one day, because of an honest mistake in estimating the lethality of a monster (there is a huge difference between a group of badly equiped human opponents and a monster that is under CRed), or because of a concious choice since the fight is supposed to be real tough due to plot reasons (although the last tends to contains warnings - I once did so in a battleinteractive, and the players knew what they were getting into when they got to choose whether they wanted to join the suicide mission). PS: One last thing. SPIKED BLEEPING CHAINS, GREATAXES, SCIMITARS, SCYTHES, RAPIERS AND ANY OTHER "OPTIMUM WEAPON" IN THE HANDS OF NPCS. STOP GIVING THE NPCS THE BEST EQUIPMENT, LACKEYS WILL NOT ALWAYS HAVE THE PERFECT HIGH DAMAGE CRIT OR LARGE CRIT RANGE WEAPONS. PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, GIVE THE NPCs REGULAR, NON-OPTIMIZED WEAPONS. Huh? Large crit ranges are actually suboptimal for NPCs from a pure statistical point of view while they are more beneficial for PCs. The reason is that the weapons are balanced with one another on the long run with both damage dice, crit range and crit multiplier when looking at average damage per round for a particular type of damage: there is no real difference between a scimitar, a longsword and a battleaxe when it comes to average damage if crit stuff is included. NPCs though tend to face opponents with more hit points (the PCs) and they tend to roll less dice before they die. Hence that x3 or x4 critical is going to have a real impact, while the x2 critical can be dealt with by the PCs (at APL 4+ anyway, but on APL 2 different rules apply anyway). The only suboptimal weapons out there are the simple weapons and the greatclub and why should you expect all NPCs to use them unless they are dead poor (and many basic humanoids in the MM actually do use that suboptimal great club). Now I your irritation about spiked chains I can understand... the reach thing combined with trip is probably more beneficial than the cost of a feat, less damage dice for a 2H weapon and the lower crit values. Than again, I have seen fighters simply use ranseurs and glaives with equal fervor... so I am not that sure spiked chains are really that unbalanced.
JamesMaissen 03-06-07, 08:52 AM	Actually, the DMG rules are way too conservative in this regards. I have been running and writing for LG for 7 years now, and APL +0 encounters do not drain resources at all, and the Core specials actually are 6 to 8 APL +2 to APL +3 encounters in a row and many groups make it to the end or at least to 2/3rds of the adventure (and some of those encounters are actually designed using particular strong monsters, it is the whole idea of core specials). This is especially true at mid to high levels. Also keep in mind that most LG adventures actually work best with 5 or 6 PC parties and not with the 4 parties. The last should always be more careful, since not only do they have less resources, they are also much more susceptible to bad dice rolling. Beyond the simple maxim of 'raise the bar and people will raise themselves to it vs lower the bar and people will reach down to it' I think the greatest difference comes in undervaluing the impact of going from 4 players to 6 players achieves. -James As an aside, I think that 4 person tables should get a -1 adjustment to their APL calculation as the gulf between a 4 person table and a 5 person table is FAR wider than that between 5 and 6 person tables. Also it makes the cludgy adjustment less so.. the idea that ADDing a person to a table can LOWER their APL highlights how flawed the system is.
Hariman 03-07-07, 01:29 AM	Beyond the simple maxim of 'raise the bar and people will raise themselves to it vs lower the bar and people will reach down to it' I think the greatest difference comes in undervaluing the impact of going from 4 players to 6 players achieves. -James Oh I know exactly what it means. It means that you have two extra rounds of action. Two extra buffers/damage dealers/healers/casters/whatever. Two extra heads at the table to think of strategy. And enough extra "Firepower" that a 6 person party might breeze through an encounter while a 4 person party flounders and takes twice as long. As an aside, I think that 4 person tables should get a -1 adjustment to their APL calculation as the gulf between a 4 person table and a 5 person table is FAR wider than that between 5 and 6 person tables. Also it makes the cludgy adjustment less so.. the idea that ADDing a person to a table can LOWER their APL highlights how flawed the system is. No argument about this. What I've heard is that LG is geared (CR'd) for groups of 5, so groups of 4 getting a -1 to the APL calculations would make sense. I should note that I recently went through an APL 6 with three 6s and three 4s. We managed to kick *** and take names, except against the last enemy, who was a tough SOB. BUT, we had some of the best players in the city, a good party mix, good tactics, no truly weak PCs, and a decent bit of good luck. (The big bad whiffed all his attacks two turns in a row. We survived without any deaths because of it.) Oh, yeah and TIME TO REST BETWEEN THE SECOND AND THIRD (last) ENCOUNTER. Which would have killed us all had we not rested. They hardly deal damage... I know that most players in my region consider these devils weak for their CR. In a particular core all the players were blind, and they faced 4 of them. It was an irritating combat, but even with a suboptimal party at APL 8 and a cleric drained to level 2 did they survive that encounter easily. It did seem weaker than it did last time I encountered one. But the last time was an above party level encounter, with a warlock who couldn't roll to beat the SR for most of the battle. Plus, chucking chains at the entire party is a pretty damaging thing when everyone needs healing afterwards. ::shrug:: Many people actually like such role-playing options, because that is what it is. But in an encounter that looks like an EL of "OMFG!!!!", the party can run without ever even getting near that option. Actually, the DMG rules are way too conservative in this regards. I have been running and writing for LG for 7 years now, and APL +0 encounters do not drain resources at all, and the Core specials actually are 6 to 8 APL +2 to APL +3 encounters in a row and many groups make it to the end or at least to 2/3rds of the adventure (and some of those encounters are actually designed using particular strong monsters, it is the whole idea of core specials). This is especially true at mid to high levels. Also keep in mind that most LG adventures actually work best with 5 or 6 PC parties and not with the 4 parties. The last should always be more careful, since not only do they have less resources, they are also much more susceptible to bad dice rolling. Sometimes it's luck, sometimes it's tactics, sometimes it's both. But I know that core specials are one thing, and core mods are another. I suspect the real reason why those combats were particular bad where in no particular order of importance: bad player tactics, DM errors, incorrectly CRed monsters, monsters that due to chance are particularly effective against your group (e.g. dire beasts have low AC, high hp, you need a heavy hitter or else they become a lot more powerful), incorrectly applied terrain modifiers (either by the DM or the author - these are particular easy to miss in play tests because groups can avoid these, sometimes particularly successful, without ever realizing they did).[QUOTE] A little of columns "A" through "Z" there. Just in different amounts on different days. [QUOTE]In any event, it is best to contact whomever is responsible for the adventure and tell them what you did and didn't like so that they learn from the mistakes. Remain polite though, and try to read the actual adventure beforehand. I know of adventures that have been pulled, and even more that got changed because of such complaints.[QUOTE] ... I know of one that got changed, but it's not the one that I'm talking about. And I can't tell you about it unless I know that you've played it. I was also told that it was unlikely to see a change, as it wouldn't kill a character. Really, the penalty isn't as bad with the new LGCS. But it still HURTS. And the old LGCS made it worse than death. [QUOTE]It could be. I don't know the adventure, nor the author. More often than not though, the real reason is that in practice the DMG is incorrect when it comes to the amount of encounters you can have on one day, because of an honest mistake in estimating the lethality of a monster (there is a huge difference between a group of badly equiped human opponents and a monster that is under CRed), or because of a concious choice since the fight is supposed to be real tough due to plot reasons (although the last tends to contains warnings - I once did so in a battleinteractive, and the players knew what they were getting into when they got to choose whether they wanted to join the suicide mission). I won't say that we the players didn't make mistakes. But trust me, it's not an adventure you like unless you succeed. And, if you look at "one encounter of the party level should consume about 1/4 of the party's resources/HP etc" that can easily end up being one party member. Huh? Large crit ranges are actually suboptimal for NPCs from a pure statistical point. SNIPPED If you factor in the NUMBER of NPCs that the PCs will encounter, those figures balance right back out because a hundred NPCs with "optimal" weapons will score many critical hits. (especially when some of the local DMs dice go "hot") That means that the mod writers are actually slanting the odds in favor of the NPCs. I'd like to see some variety. That list I posted was pretty much comprehensive for the variety of weapons seen. I'm sick to death of being able to count the different weapons that I can expect on a humanoid enemy without taking my shoes off. And all the crits I've seen on the high crit range weapons aren't helping. The only suboptimal weapons out there are the simple weapons and the greatclub and why should you expect all NPCs to use them unless they are dead poor (and many basic humanoids in the MM actually do use that suboptimal great club). I don't want ALL enemies to choose "bad" weapons. I just want to see a variety. I was actually very happy in one mod when a thug ONLY had a sap. Now I your irritation about spiked chains I can understand... SNIP Good, but I've seen too many spiked chains on high strength NPCs, which negates the low damage factor. There's actually little difference between 2d6+6 and 2d4+8. There are also other factors that increase damage.
Madfox11 03-07-07, 03:12 AM	Really, the penalty isn't as bad with the new LGCS. But it still HURTS. And the old LGCS made it worse than death. Sounds like item destruction... I won't say that we the players didn't make mistakes. But trust me, it's not an adventure you like unless you succeed. Like I said, contact the people responsible. As a Circle Member I have regular chats with authors, including Creighton. We get very few well explained complaints and compliments (and both are important) through E-mail about our adventures. Mouth to mouth complaints only reach so far, and only work in a small region. Besides, if the complaints are about honest mistakes we can and do make changes, or if absolutely necessary even recall adventures. If you factor in the NUMBER of NPCs that the PCs will encounter, those figures balance right back out because a hundred NPCs with "optimal" weapons will score many critical hits. (especially when some of the local DMs dice go "hot") That means that the mod writers are actually slanting the odds in favor of the NPCs. Not really, since a x3 critical is much more painful on a PC than a x2 critical even the second is more common. I'd like to see some variety. That list I posted was pretty much comprehensive for the variety of weapons seen. I'm sick to death of being able to count the different weapons that I can expect on a humanoid enemy without taking my shoes off. And all the crits I've seen on the high crit range weapons aren't helping. I cannot speak for others, but I do try to vary weapons. I was actually very happy in one mod when a thug ONLY had a sap. Ugh... makes them way too susceptible to disarm and sunder. Smart enemies will carry more weapons with them.. Good, but I've seen too many spiked chains on high strength NPCs, which negates the low damage factor. There's actually little difference between 2d6+6 and 2d4+8. There are also other factors that increase damage. You do realize, that that same NPC would have a 2d6+8/19-20 as the 2d4+8/20 or 1d10+8/x3 (glaive, still reach, so one feat more to get more out of reach)? In any event, I have rarely used spiked chains...
solbergb 03-07-07, 03:25 AM	Yeh...the reason a party can do three EL+2-3 encounters in a day is that they can...if they're an expected party for LG Which is to say...4 people at APL+0 to +2, or 5 at APL-1 to +1 or 6 at APL-2 to +0. I've found that playtesting encounters with random mixes of parties like that give results very consistent with what happens in real conventions. If you have a 5th person, the EL+2 encounter doesn't drain half your resources. It drains 20% to a third most of the time, half if you really suck fo the type of encounter and almost nothing if the party happens to be really good for that type of encounter. Which means you're good for 2 more similar encounters in a day. Many modules however don't do everything in one day, which just makes it easier on character types like spellcasters and x/day folks like barbarians. As for NPC equipment - if you stick to the DMG NPC wealth guidelines and elite array, as the new writer guidelines encourage, then in fact it's nuts NOT to give people appropriate gear for their level. After you get past the L1 warriors, people will use the weapons considered best for the kind of warrior they are, modified by cultural preferences (bakluni like the curved swordlike things, and stuff that works from horseback, Oerlideans favor the straight swordlike things and tend to more pole arms, hextorites use more flails, etc). In real life, favored weapons of regions depended on the kind of fighting they did, and yeah, they were homogenous, and yeah, they did in fact have the very best weapons they can afford. After level 2 or so, any opponent you have doesn't have to buy a longspear because he's too broke to buy a Ranseur (which is like a longspear, has the set vs charge thing and reach but has more reliable damage and gives bonuses to disarm). The cost to masterwork it overwhelms any other consideration beyond utility. My NPC's also tend to have cold iron and silver stuff, have most damage types if only on backup weapons (add a club to anyone who fights and can carry 3 lb...it's free, you can power attack with it, you can throw it and it is a whole lot better than nothing if their real weapon goes away) and a small number of appropriate DR-defeating potions and a little healing potions and a splash weapon or two just like PC's do. Why wouldn't they? Such things cost a pittance compared to the cost of their armor and main weapon, so it would be stupid not to have them....even if their normal enemies don't have DR, summoned things might, or they could accidently stir up a wasp swarm or wahtever.
King Kashue 03-07-07, 04:39 AM	If you factor in the NUMBER of NPCs that the PCs will encounter, those figures balance right back out because a hundred NPCs with "optimal" weapons will score many critical hits. (especially when some of the local DMs dice go "hot") That means that the mod writers are actually slanting the odds in favor of the NPCs. This isn't correct... Statistically, a "19-20/x2" weapon and a "x3" weapon are nearly identical in terms of their damage... The variance is miniscule, over a thousand statistically average swings, the x3 weapon has only 12.5% of one swing's worth of damage more... So, for instance, if the average meanie swinging a 2h has +6 str bonus, and is doing say 15 points of damage (7 average on 2d6, +6 Str, +2 magic), over 1000 swings, that bad guy will do 1.875 points more of damage... That's not too much in terms of "slanting the odds in favor of the NPCs" :D Same goes for the x4 weps or the 18-20/x2s. The variance on a x4 is only 25% of one swing over a 19-20/x2. And since the swings generally do 1 point of damage less on average, it's a net loss. The high crit multipliers only increase burst damage, not the statistical curve. They increase the chance that at any given moment you might be rocked by a big crit, but they lower the corresponding chance that you'll be crit at all. There is not a statistically significant difference between the two.
cycloptic_squirrel 03-07-07, 06:59 AM	The real question is whether you'd rather be critted more for less or less for more. An example: in two fights you're getting hit. In the first situation, the NPC is using a "19-20" crit weapon; in both fights he hits three times and one is a crit. This results in damage x4 for both fights. In the second situation, the NPC is wielding a "x3" weapon; the first fight he hits you three times and in the second fight he also hits you three times, but one is a critical hit. The first fight ends with damage x3 and the second fight results in damage x5. Both situations end in similiar damage, but the distribution is off. Overall, the larger threat range will make the NPCs more reliable, but when you get critically hit with a big multiplier, there's a much larger chance that it will kill someone. If you're in a place where where two good hits will take you into the negatives, the expanded threat weapon will bring you down more often, but when the larger multiplier weapon crits, it will bring you down with enough extra damage to put you past -10. In other situations, it shouldn't matter much, but in these close situations it makes a difference. The fights may seem harder, but I'd rather have the option that kills me less. Not everyone feels this way though...
Potato Weasel 03-07-07, 07:08 AM	I think the point was that getting hit by scimitars that crit every other round hurts, and so do keen/improved crit axes. It was more going towards the fact that there are simple weapons, and cheap weapons that have no improved threat range, and stay a x2 multiplier. Also, I hate how greyhawk has limited magic item access (and metaorgs and such cant give them as base access) but every single low level orc or vampire or whatever has the right tools for the job, and is busting with magic items, while you're scrambling for half decent access.
cycloptic_squirrel 03-07-07, 08:34 AM	Next time you vanquish a foe, take a look at his wealth and compare it to yours. I can't speak for all NPCs, but if the author's playing by the rules, it'll be less than your own.
Grovar 03-07-07, 07:35 PM	If I'm thinking of the same mod you were, it wasn't awakened, it was a raven familiar. They have the ability to speak a language. Nope. Baklunish cormorant that was sent to City of Greyhawk in Immortal Longings (Y5 Core, so I can talk about it). It was awakened and was what sent you on your way. At least Vecna no longer hates me. :ayyyy!:
jstorrie 03-07-07, 09:57 PM	My NPC's also tend to have cold iron and silver stuff, have most damage types if only on backup weapons (add a club to anyone who fights and can carry 3 lb...it's free, you can power attack with it, you can throw it and it is a whole lot better than nothing if their real weapon goes away) and a small number of appropriate DR-defeating potions and a little healing potions and a splash weapon or two just like PC's do. Why wouldn't they? Because they're guards/thugs/soldiers, etc.? Adventurers have adventuring gear. Non-adventurers wouldn't carry the golf-bag just to raid some caravans on the road or guard a cave.
bitznarf 03-07-07, 10:05 PM	Because they're guards/thugs/soldiers, etc.? Adventurers have adventuring gear. Non-adventurers wouldn't carry the golf-bag just to raid some caravans on the road or guard a cave. If they have PC class levels (as opposed to NPC class levels like warrior) I don't seem a problem here. I simply think of them as adventurers on the 'other' side. Or ones working for someone on a long term basis.
solbergb 03-08-07, 09:12 AM	Level 1 Warriors are thugs. Class leveled NPC's can reasonably expect to encounter at a minimum people who summon monsters with DR or swarms as enemies, especially if they're tasked with taking down adventurers, as opposed to being random guards. Even a level 1 fighter has 900gp of equipment. That means 90gp of consumables by DMG guidelines. potion of clw (or magic weapon if the boss could cares less about his minion bleeding out), alch fire, smokestick maybe. A cold iron longspear is only 2 goldpieces. A silver light mace is only a bit over 20gp. Silver and cold iron arrows or sling bullets and cold iron javelins are also dirt cheap. Why wouldn't they have this stuff if there is even the remotest chance they may fight something that needs it? Even city guards have to contend with wererats and vampire spawn and low level summoned fiends such as Lemures, Dretch, etc if we are to believe various LG urban mods over the years (and encouter tables in cities going all the way back to first edition) Most class leveled NPC's ARE adventurers of a sort. They're elite troops or successful bandits. If they've ever looted an adventurer, they'd get the idea. The Prelatal Army routinely equips their rank and file troops with ten flasks of oil - they have to patrol the troll fens and have to keep giants and ogres in the Rakers under control. I'd be shocked if their NCO's and officers didn't have DR defeating weapons and splash weapons. A an evil temple guard though, would likely have anti-celestial DR (ie DR/evil and Dr/magic), for example. So even warrior-type guards might have something appropriate. It is silly to think that in civilized lands where the leadership knows about threats that can make normal weapon ineffectual that inexpensive remedies wouldn't be available to the rank and file, and that they'd be trained in their use. (where inexpensive = "cheap compared to total cost of equipping my minion.") EVERYONE should have a backup weapon. Even thugs encounter disarm or sunder as a tactic, and clubs are free, daggers are cheap. Even modern soldiers carry knives and use their guns as clubs in a pinch.
DuctShuiTengu 03-10-07, 12:46 PM	My contribution: Grell (pg. 107 Lords of Madness) Full attack: 10 tentacles and a bite (only +5 and 1d4+1 damage, but they have TEN tentacles!). They have improved grab, paralysis, constriction damage (1d6+1 on a successful grapple check), etc. They are +17 to grapple. CR: 3. Where this gets realy rediculous is when you instead get invisible Grel rogues. Because clearly, what's needed to make this thing appropriate for an APL 4 party is 4 of them with 2d6 sneak attack on each of their 11 attacks. Let's see... 11 attacks per grel for an average of 10.5 damage per attack... yeah, that totally won't go through the party like a buzz-saw through wet cardboard. Also, Giant Clerics. Yeah, tell me again how the Hill Giant 12th level Cleric (who casts Divine Power (Raising his BAB into the 20s) right before the surprise round) is only CR 13? And on the subject of crits: while 19-20x2 and x3 are roughly equivalent for PCs (and by extension, x4 and 18-20x2 are likewise roughly equal), the higher crit multiplier can cause much greater swings in the difficulty of an encounter, especially in cases where the creatures using them are a little below the curve for the APL. Where a x2 crit frequently only means that a PC is hurt, needs healing, and may even have to remove themself from the fight until they get it (lest another hit like that drop them), the x3 and x4 ones are generally more likely to result in the target dying. The end result is that higher threat ranges result in everyone who was in melee range needing lots of healing, while higher multipliers tend to result in most of the people in melee only needing a little healing, but one of them being dead.
King Kashue 03-10-07, 02:03 PM	Where this gets realy rediculous is when you instead get invisible Grel rogues. Because clearly, what's needed to make this thing appropriate for an APL 4 party is 4 of them with 2d6 sneak attack on each of their 11 attacks. Let's see... 11 attacks per grel for an average of 10.5 damage per attack... yeah, that totally won't go through the party like a buzz-saw through wet cardboard. Where are the Grells getting improved invisibility at APL 4? If it's just normal invisibility, they only get it on the first attack, then they're no longer considered an invisible creature. Also, Giant Clerics. Yeah, tell me again how the Hill Giant 12th level Cleric (who casts Divine Power (Raising his BAB into the 20s) right before the surprise round) is only CR 13? Well, the non-associated class rules are kinda flawed when dealing with monsters with a high HD to CR ratio (like Giants)... Since Cleric is not an associated class level, each level of the class is 1/2 CR until you reach a class level exceeding the creature's hit dice. Hill Giants are 12 hit dice and CR 7, adding 12 cleric levels adds 6 CR, totally CR13... Honestly though, it's only got like 200 hit points, and while it's gonna hit like a truck, so will a Storm Giant at the same CR, and an APL 10 party should be able to deal with it...
blood_kite 03-10-07, 03:42 PM	Non-associated class rules are more than a little flawed when it comes to adding spellcaster levels. Here is an example that took me all of a minute and the SRD to think of. Ghast 4 HD (29 HP) (CR 3) Sneaky melee type Str 17, Dex 17, Con -, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 16 AC: 17, Melee: +5/+3/+3 for 1d8+3/1d4+1 Paralysis DC 15 Add 4 HD = 8 HD (55 HP) (CR 4) Str 17, Dex 17, Con -, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 16 AC: 17, Melee: +7/+5/+5 1d8+3/1d4+1 Paralysis DC 17 Add 7 levels cleric (non-associated)(elite array) = 15 HD (90 HP) (CR 9) Str 20, Dex 17, Con -, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 22 AC: 17, Melee: +15/+13/+13 1d8+5/1d4+2 Paralysis DC 20 or 23 depending on whether class levels add to DC Equip with a Chain Shirt Trickery and Travel Domains Ability Focus (Paralysis), Power Attack, Improved Paralysis Cast well before combat: Magic Vestment (+2), Spell Immunity (Searing Light, another spell), Magic Circle against Good, Resist Energy (Fire) Cast if given a minute warning: Invisbility, Eagle's Splendor, Divine Power, Fly, Divine Favor CR 9 buffed Ghoul cleric (97 HP) + 6 CR 1/3 Human Warrior Skeletons (EL 9 or 10) Str 26, Dex 17, Con -, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 26 AC: 23 or 25, Melee: +23/+21/+21 for 1d8+10/1d4+6 Paralysis DC 28 to 32 F: +7, R: +9, W: +13 I could see this encounter doing a real number at an APL 6 table even with rested PC's. Use the skeletons to find the turning cleric, fly over to him invisibly. Next round Power Attack for 5 and force the Fort saves the cleric probably can't make. Fly or Withdraw Fly to next caster and repeat.
Timlagor 03-10-07, 03:46 PM	I imagine the Grells used the Invisibility to get right next to the party and gain a Surprise Round. Then of course they're Rogues which means Elite Array with high Dex and Improved Initiative to get the full attack off first in the first round. Non-associated Cleric Levels shouldn't be allowed anywhere at any APL. Any Non-Associated levels that exceed the base CR shouldn't be allowed either.
King Kashue 03-10-07, 04:00 PM	Any Non-Associated levels that exceed the base CR shouldn't be allowed either. Considering that's 2 or more non-associated levels, it's not the most reasonable solution...:rolleyes: The "broken" Hill Giant is a legitimate encounter for an APL 10 party. The stock Storm Giant is the same CR and is just as nasty... As for your Ghoul example, the prebuffing and additional monsters should increase the EL at least one if not two (instead of the 0-1 you have it), which means it's not an APL 6 encounter in a normal module, and it should be fine for APL 8...Fudging the math downward is not the way to show the rule itself is broken...
Timlagor 03-10-07, 05:40 PM	Considering that's 2 or more non-associated levels, it's not the most reasonable solution...:rolleyes: I don't understand. What CR2 creature are you talking about anyway? Once you get to NA-Levels = base HD they become associated. I'm saying they should also be associated beyond the point where NAL=CR. Did you misunderstand me? Either way what's wrong with my claim? I'm not saying you can't give them more levels than their base CR just that they shouldn't be non-associated beyond that (because otherwise you can advance almost anything by HD to a point where you can top it up with NALs to way past the levels it could have at that CR if it hadn't been advanced) ..assuming you just robotically use the formulae and don't actually consider the actual power level as you should do.
King Kashue 03-10-07, 09:16 PM	I don't understand. What CR2 creature are you talking about anyway? Once you get to NA-Levels = base HD they become associated. I'm saying they should also be associated beyond the point where NAL=CR. Did you misunderstand me? Either way what's wrong with my claim? I did misunderstand you, because it wasn't stated even remotely clearly... You said they should be "not allowed", not that they should be "treated as associated", those are vastly different...
Timlagor 03-11-07, 12:49 PM	Not allowed to be non-associated.
Madfox11 03-12-07, 10:25 AM	I find the whole discussion about associated and non-associated class levels rather lacking since it should be much more generic since racial HD advancement is at least equal to non-associated class levels if not better (and even more so if you combine the two). The simple fact is that advancing creatures is something that should always be closely observed for unexpected boosts in power - specific spells being an example (divine power has hardly any impact on an outsider, slightly on giants and a lot on undead due to the difference in BABs). Advancing monsters is more of an art than a science even with the guidelines.