Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mommy was an Orc 01-12-07, 10:47 PM	So, what's the most broken access you've gotten from a now retired mod? Here's mine - my Bard character has access to a very special item that got upgraded in a core mod. It wasn't quite supposed to happen that way, but it did. Here are the interesting things: Having an AR overrules a mod - the DM was supposed to have either crossed it off or told me to cross it off. He forgot. Apparently, according to how the rules work, I've now got access - which makes sense - unless you run every mod, how exactly are you supposed to know when a DM messes up. One of the aspects of this item is that for 3 uses of Turning, it will cast Stoneskin. The item is for a specific god. Now, obviously, a non-cleric of this god is not going to use it, even with access. That's basically asking to have your Clerical casting removed. However, the item does not actually specify that you need to be a cleric of this god to use this aspect of it - just there shouldn't be anyone who could. Which opens up the brokenness - my Bard happens to have an extraordinarily high UMD score for his level. The rule of how the item works happens to be nearly the exact example of Lydia in PHB - she fools a device into thinking she channeled turning attempts into it. Okay, so by using UMD, I can fool this item into thinking that I've used 3 turning attempts. I can't actually fail to do this. Now here's where the true cheese starts flying - I haven't actually used up turning attempts. I don't have them. I've used a skill. Which means I can fool it again. In fact, I can fool it as many times a day as I'd like to because it doesn't have an upper limit of uses. I'm really curious as to what effect this would have on say a Battle Interactive with a RAW is God senior DM. Does he let everyone wander around with Stoneskin, even the APL 2 people? And for the clincher? The cost is 8K...8K for unlimited use of a spell with an expensive material component. In my defense, the very first person that I told about this was Sam Weiss(a friend of mine who keeps calling me evil for some reason), who promptly made sure Creighton and the author of the mod knew about it. I also haven't bought it and likely won't. Of course, I run into anyone who does have it, I'll probably try to bluff them into thinking I'm a worshipper of their god and blow their character's mind with how much their god likes me. Obviously, that has to happen with the player's consent, but given I have a Bluff score over +20, it is pretty easy to believe. Anyway, what's your most broken access found?
Jay_Ibero_911 01-12-07, 11:09 PM	Well, not terribly broken, but pretty darn handy. A Hat with permanent protection from evil. Great for all those tanks with no will save.
Arvagor 01-12-07, 11:20 PM	Anyway, what's your most broken access found?"Access to any one Limited feat, spell, or prestige class" -- got it before the "no unlimited access to Limited" rule got put into place. There's a number of things in Book of Exalted Deeds I considered -- Nymph's Kiss feat, or even better, Touch of Golden Ice. Same mod gave access to a no-slot continuous protection from evil object too...
kenobi65 01-13-07, 12:28 AM	"Access to any one Limited feat, spell, or prestige class" -- got it before the "no unlimited access to Limited" rule got put into place. There's a number of things in Book of Exalted Deeds I considered -- Nymph's Kiss feat, or even better, Touch of Golden Ice. Same mod gave access to a no-slot continuous protection from evil object too... Yeah, those two are pretty busted. I got Nymph's Kiss in a Verbobonc regional module...it's a dang nice feat. :)
Vamroc 01-13-07, 12:36 AM	It has to be the Smite power from Sympathy for the Baatezu. I played it as a wizard and let me tell you nothing turns heads faster than a wizard in the party who can Smite. It becomes better and better with each passing level.
Sutro 01-13-07, 01:13 AM	I have the same AR Arvagor. :) I didn't have the cash at the time to get the trinket, but if I do, that will be first on the list. I'm still holding onto that favor. :) Want to see how PHB2 and Scoundrel/Mage access shakes out...
copper_wyrmling 01-13-07, 01:17 AM	I'm still holding onto that favor. :) Want to see how PHB2 and Scoundrel/Mage access shakes out... Better check with your Triad first - those ARs were all supposed to be errata'ed :weep: I had a moment of extreme excitement when the GM read out the favors at the end of one module (because one of them was an "Any Limited feat / spell" favor, can't remember if it also included PrCs), before a Triad member wandered over and reminded him that it had been changed...
Britt 01-13-07, 01:33 AM	I'll have to verify the following, but I'm pretty sure this is the official stance on such favors. I want to get a statement out ASAP, though, to avoid abuse of these favors. No favor can give you access to ANY Limited item since the removal of the explicit Limited list from the LGCS. Any such favor should be assumed to provide no access until the AR is erratad. Such favors assume the existence of a Limited list from which you pick. There are no items on any such list anymore, hence, you have no options to choose from. Contact your Triad for errata on these favors.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-13-07, 01:37 AM	Well, there is one mod I played with my druid that gives one player at the table a ring for free, which acts as a ring of protections +1 and a ring of sustenance...and lucky me my druid got it...
pedr 01-13-07, 02:19 AM	I'll have to verify the following, but I'm pretty sure this is the official stance on such favors. I want to get a statement out ASAP, though, to avoid abuse of these favors. No favor can give you access to ANY Limited item since the removal of the explicit Limited list from the LGCS. Any such favor should be assumed to provide no access until the AR is erratad. Such favors assume the existence of a Limited list from which you pick. There are no items on any such list anymore, hence, you have no options to choose from. Contact your Triad for errata on these favors.Thanks for posting that, Britt. The Onnwal triad changed the (one) such favour they'd issued, to the point of not permitting people to choose one of the other options instead of the spell access now the spell access was to particular spells not open choice (it was a 'choose either a) access to potions up to 1000gp, b) something else or c) any two limited spells, choose now and cross the other two off' kind of favour). It's irked me ever since to hear people talking about these favours, and - as people who read message boards probably read regional lists and announcements too, it suggests to me that this means that some triads haven't followed the requirement, from getting on for twelve-months ago, that these favours be removed or altered. Can this go in the next dispel confusion, please?
Japangirl 01-13-07, 02:51 AM	A Yeomanry module that gave a +1 inherent bump to a stat of your choice, a +3 sacred bonus to all saves for a year, and a huge list of Regional access to armor and weapon upgrades. The upgrades went up to +4 enhancements or a straight +5, not all of them of course but a goodly number. The first thing you bought off that list was at half cost, too. I added Moderate Fortification to my +1 armor for less than 10k :D. The downside to the module? A curse that reduces your HP . . . by 1.
rockondon 01-13-07, 04:42 AM	One of the aspects of this item is that for 3 uses of Turning, it will cast Stoneskin. The item is for a specific god. Now, obviously, a non-cleric of this god is not going to use it, even with access. That's basically asking to have your Clerical casting removed. However, the item does not actually specify that you need to be a cleric of this god to use this aspect of it - just there shouldn't be anyone who could. Personally, I don't think that would work. Here's what the AR says. the first favor: Greater Holy Symbol of Kelanen: This particular magical blade is forged in the Eastfair shrine of Kelanen...For the cost of 3 turn/rebuke attempts, it activates keen edge on the blade at the cleric's caster level. Only clerics of Kelanen may use this ability. the second favor (which you shouldn't have unless you played the 2003 prequel to this mod I believe): This upgrade is in addition to all stats and abilities of the Greater Holy Symbol of Kelanen. As a bonus, this improvement has one of the following additional powers...for 3 turn/rebuke attempts it activates stoneskin at the cleric's caster level. When you look at both bolded statements together, it seems to say (to me at least) that the second ability is subject to the same limitations as the first. Not to mention that it activates stoneskin at the cleric's caster level. If that level = 0, well....
JohnduBois 01-13-07, 09:34 AM	I'll have to verify the following, but I'm pretty sure this is the official stance on such favors. I want to get a statement out ASAP, though, to avoid abuse of these favors. No favor can give you access to ANY Limited item since the removal of the explicit Limited list from the LGCS. Any such favor should be assumed to provide no access until the AR is erratad. Such favors assume the existence of a Limited list from which you pick. There are no items on any such list anymore, hence, you have no options to choose from. Contact your Triad for errata on these favors. Britt, I had the adventure mentioned by Arvagor run for me by a Triad member of the region on December 23, and he confirmed that the favor did indeed let the player select any one Limited feat, spell, or prestige class from the list of "player accessible" books in the LGCS (which, granted, would disallow the Book of Exalted Deeds items). Should I contact that Triad again to confirm?
Mommy was an Orc 01-13-07, 10:05 AM	the second favor (which you shouldn't have unless you played the 2003 prequel to this mod I believe): This upgrade is in addition to all stats and abilities of the Greater Holy Symbol of Kelanen. As a bonus, this improvement has one of the following additional powers...for 3 turn/rebuke attempts it activates stoneskin at the cleric's caster level. When you look at both bolded statements together, it seems to say (to me at least) that the second ability is subject to the same limitations as the first. Not to mention that it activates stoneskin at the cleric's caster level. If that level = 0, well.... As you noted, it specifically notes that only clerics of Kelanen can use the keen edge ability. It says no such thing for the other abilities. As the two of them are both listed on the same AR, there's no reason to make that assumption. In any case, there's problems, the reason it hasn't been errata'd. Sam, Creighton, and the writer all thought it would work given the circumstances, but let's take a look at those circumstances... You have to have your DM make the mistake(this was the primary thing the writer was screaming about) Extremely few people are going to have access to this - you had to have a worshipper of Kelanen play the previous mod and get access to the sword. You need to have an extremely high UMD score to make this work in the midlevels. Failing a roll can be open to DM interpretation as you're messing with a god's item. Caster level is not a problem - if you don't let me use my Bard caster level which is how UMD works, it defaults to the UMD roll-20 for purposes of caster level. My Bard caster level is 7. My caster level with UMD is 7+1d20. Which is to say, if I roll a 1, I have the same caster level I'd have normally. That's why it isn't getting errata'd - I'm probably the only UMD specialist in the world with access to the item, and I'm not planning to buy it - because it is far too broken to use even once a day at APL 8-10. The item is horribly mispriced - even with its limitations, it should be a 50K+ item in terms of cost.
Arvagor 01-13-07, 12:42 PM	You need to have an extremely high UMD score to make this work in the midlevels. Failing a roll can be open to DM interpretation as you're messing with a god's item. Caster level is not a problem - if you don't let me use my Bard caster level which is how UMD works, it defaults to the UMD roll-20 for purposes of caster level. My Bard caster level is 7. My caster level with UMD is 7+1d20. Which is to say, if I roll a 1, I have the same caster level I'd have normally. OK, I'll bite... ;) How is your UMD score at +27 (or more)? And if you say a a level of Marshal with the "Motivate Charisma" aura, then how do you respect yourself in the morning? :rolleye2:
Britt 01-13-07, 12:59 PM	I had a UMD of +35 at 13th level, so I'm sure it's doable :) Skill Focus (UMD), Exemplar bonus, max ranks, 28 CHA, a cohort with Motivate CHA (dwarf with practically all the auras), sceptre of obedience, etc etc.
Britt 01-13-07, 01:01 PM	John: Yes. Once I get agreement from the rest of the Circle, I'm going to make sure all the Triads are aware of this stance. I think the approach right now is very inconsistent between regions.
Mommy was an Orc 01-13-07, 01:05 PM	OK, I'll bite... ;) How is your UMD score at +27 (or more)? And if you say a a level of Marshal with the "Motivate Charisma" aura, then how do you respect yourself in the morning? :rolleye2: Bard 7/Marshal 1 with Motivate Charisma...I've made no secret about this. He's not your typical Motivate Charisma person in any case - he only has 5 ranks in Diplomacy, 1 rank in Gather Info, 5 ranks in Bluff. And at least I don't have Motivate Dex. i.e. I've gone for breadth of skills rather than focusing on skills, with the exception of Perform and UMD. Anyway, at level 8: Max ranks = 11 Charisma 20 = +5 Motivate Charisma = +5 again Circlet of Persuasion = +3(crafted with CWI and scrolls, though I had access) Heroism = +2 That's +26. Roll a 1, and I get a 7. I badly worded up there - it should be 6+1-20, not 7+1d20. Still a 30% chance of being an Epic Spellcaster for purposes of UMD :) I've also never failed to activate a Grell Lightning Gun a friend of mine has from a GenCon special. Only adventured with that character twice, but wow...my Bard managed to kill two giants with one shot at one point.
Arvagor 01-13-07, 01:23 PM	Anyway, at level 8: Max ranks = 11 Charisma 20 = +5 Motivate Charisma = +5 again Circlet of Persuasion = +3(crafted with CWI and scrolls, though I had access) Heroism = +2 Not picking on you in particular, Mommy, but once again illustrating that Marshal auras (if not the entire class) are broken. Marshal, talking to himself: OK, I really need to activate this magic item to save the party's collective butt... [tinker, tinker] Crap! It doesn't work! What am I gonna do?!? Oh yeah, I know, I'll give myself a pep talk! Rah, rah, sis-boom-bah, make myself a hot ma-ma! [tinker, tinker] [...] [KA-ZOTTT!!!] It never ceases to amaze me that the designers of the class thought it possible that a marshal can in some way get people to be better at skills for which the Marshal has no training ("No, no; you're reading that scroll all wrong!"). Not that the class can be "fixed" in LG (short of restricting it), but IMO, the exemplar's Lend Talent (Ex) ability is a much better example of how something like that should work... I've also never failed to activate a Grell Lightning Gun a friend of mine has from a GenCon special.Yeah, those are nice; unfortunately, my party went the other way in the caves, so we didn't get access to that :(
Mommy was an Orc 01-13-07, 01:57 PM	Not picking on you in particular, Mommy, but once again illustrating that Marshal auras (if not the entire class) are broken. It never ceases to amaze me that the designers of the class thought it possible that a marshal can in some way get people to be better at skills for which the Marshal has no training ("No, no; you're reading that scroll all wrong!"). Not that the class can be "fixed" in LG (short of restricting it), but IMO, the exemplar's Lend Talent (Ex) ability is a much better example of how something like that should work... I think Marshal is unusually frontloaded, especially given how the 3rd level rule works in LG. And the interaction with Sublime Chord makes it a lot more dangerous than it ought to be - a Bard build can lose 3 levels and still enter Sublime Chord at 11th. It is actually even possible to lose 4 levels and enter Sublime Chord at 11th(Marshal 4/Wizard 5/Virtuoso 1). But I don't think it is significantly worse than Barbarian 1+Extra Rage in Fighter builds as an example. In the case of my Bard, I'd still have a +21. I'd still average a caster level of 11 on a roll. I'd still have extremely high Social skills - what would probably have happened is that my Intimidate ranks would have gotten distributed to Diplomacy and Gather Information to the point where I'd be almost as good by myself at them. But I don't think the 2nd is a really valid criticism - you're not making them better at a particular skill, you're making them better at using their abilities. In other words, Balance is based on Dexterity. You're not actually making them better at Balancing - if they don't have 5 ranks in it, they'll still be flatfooted while balancing. What you're doing is making them better at utilizing their Dexterity. The end result is that they're better at Balancing, even if their skill hasn't actually improved.
Nerax 01-13-07, 04:10 PM	COR 4-? Real Hero Blues gave access to a +2 Adamatine Long Sword with the option of upgrading it to Holy for half price!!! I believe that only Paladins or Clerics of Heironeous could get it but still really nice. Along with that Paladin's received access to a Celestial mount....I do admit that it was a great boon for Paladin's who normally don't get things. We were lucky enough to have a Pally at the table.
clannagh 01-14-07, 05:54 PM	Extremely few people are going to have access to this - you had to have a worshipper of Kelanen play the previous mod and get access to the sword. Well actually you were offered a free atonementto convert to Kelanen. But yes only a few clerics would have taken the atonement and the base sword is worse than a normal keen weapon for roughly the same money so not everyone would have purchased the base item before playing the game that upgraded it.
_m_ 01-14-07, 06:11 PM	Well actually you were offered a free atonementto convert to Kelanen. But yes only a few clerics would have taken the atonement and the base sword is worse than a normal keen weapon for roughly the same money so not everyone would have purchased the base item before playing the game that upgraded it. free conversion, free domaiin smite ability (which is awsum!), and, of course, free french accent. not sure how the last one worked, but the poor girl's never been the same since.
Mommy was an Orc 01-14-07, 06:16 PM	Well actually you were offered a free atonementto convert to Kelanen. But yes only a few clerics would have taken the atonement and the base sword is worse than a normal keen weapon for roughly the same money so not everyone would have purchased the base item before playing the game that upgraded it. That's not quite what I'm referring to - only a person not gaining benefits from worship of Kelanen is going to be able to use UMD in this way. In order to play the special encounter, you need someone who does with you. By itself, that is going to reduce the odds of it happening to near zero.
clannagh 01-14-07, 07:20 PM	free conversion, free domaiin smite ability (which is awsum!), and, of course, free french accent. not sure how the last one worked, but the poor girl's never been the same since. mais oui .. but will she buy zee sword ? is it a good iinvestment?? je ne ce pas
_m_ 01-14-07, 09:36 PM	mais oui .. but will she buy zee sword ? is it a good iinvestment?? je ne ce pas awww. how cute! you nearly speak french! nar she wont get the sword, shes got 0 clericness, and she needs her reach weapon. but its still cool.
Genghis Cohen 01-14-07, 10:02 PM	The most broken AR that I have is so broken that I'm afraid to post it out of fear that the Circle will nullify it.
_m_ 01-14-07, 10:10 PM	The most broken AR that I have is so broken that I'm afraid to post it out of fear that the Circle will nullify it. oh? what is it?
clannagh 01-14-07, 10:41 PM	shame a glaive isnt a martial sword _m_ slightly off topic (and still a current mod so i cant really say anything about the wheres and whys) .. but i picked up access recently to have any legal level 6 ARCANE spell cast AFTER a mod ... whats with that ?? aside from maybe break enchantment at CL5 or stone to flesh there do not seem to be many arcane spells that are even remotely useful AFTER a mod
_m_ 01-14-07, 10:43 PM	shame a glaive isnt a martial sword _m_ slightly off topic (and still a current mod so i cant really say anything about the wheres and whys) .. but i picked up access recently to have any legal level 6 ARCANE spell cast AFTER a mod ... whats with that ?? aside from maybe break enchantment at CL5 or stone to flesh there do not seem to be many arcane spells that are even remotely useful AFTER a mod what, fireball isnt a good out of game spell? no bonfire for you evidentaly. but yeah, that really dosent seem to make much sense. maybe a remove curse?
Mommy was an Orc 01-14-07, 10:59 PM	The most broken AR that I have is so broken that I'm afraid to post it out of fear that the Circle will nullify it. You sure Japangirl didn't already post it up above?
Arvagor 01-14-07, 11:26 PM	whats with that ?? aside from maybe break enchantment at CL5 or stone to flesh there do not seem to be many arcane spells that are even remotely useful AFTER a mod Disintegrate -- to destroy any evil thingies you found? Undeath to Death -- to destroy the bad guy vampire/lich/whatever, when there aren't any RSoPs around? Greater Dispel Magic -- can function like remove curse? Yeah, I'm comin' up blank too ;)
_m_ 01-14-07, 11:40 PM	Disintegrate -- to destroy any evil thingies you found? Undeath to Death -- to destroy the bad guy vampire/lich/whatever, when there aren't any RSoPs around? Greater Dispel Magic -- can function like remove curse? Yeah, I'm comin' up blank too ;) arcane mark! to write funny things on your stuff, and since, while a pc cant have a continuing effect, an npc can, so you could have it last 4 liek, ever.
Genghis Cohen 01-15-07, 02:52 AM	You sure Japangirl didn't already post it up above?Yeah, I missed her post. My character didn't pick up the curse that she mentioned.
gomeztoo 01-15-07, 04:34 AM	Hmmm... *books ticket to Yeomanry* Pretty good stuff I found: - A circlet (cursed, so free) that grants fast healing 2 in exchange for a -5 on Will saves. Not broken, because having fast healing won't really save your butt except for auto-stabilize, and -5 on will saves is nasty, but a huge save on healing in cleric-poor parties (which we have a lot). - The power to take the half-celestial/werebear/half-dragon template (depending on how you roll) for one future scenario. Didn't get that myself, btw.
Arvagor 01-15-07, 07:19 PM	- A circlet (cursed, so free) that grants fast healing 2 in exchange for a -5 on Will saves. Not broken, because having fast healing won't really save your butt except for auto-stabilize, and -5 on will saves is nasty, but a huge save on healing in cleric-poor parties (which we have a lot).I know the favor of which you speak... I also know of at least one 5th level Occult Slayer and one 3rd level Holy Liberator who were more than happy to take that "curse" -- given the abilities gained at those respective levels, how big of a deal is a -5 on your Will saves? ;)
Lomiat 01-15-07, 07:58 PM	Disintegrate -- to destroy any evil thingies you found? Undeath to Death -- to destroy the bad guy vampire/lich/whatever, when there aren't any RSoPs around? Greater Dispel Magic -- can function like remove curse? Yeah, I'm comin' up blank too ;) Stone to Flesh, Legend Lore, Analyze Dweomer, Break Enchantment, Remove Curse, etc. But then again there are more exciting options: Played a Core and your next mod is regional? Why, just Teleport everyone home. Got a question that needs answering? Hey, get that poor sucker who owes you the favor to Contact Other Plane. Let him deal with the Int check. Or... my personal favorite... Is the party at your place? Sure. Invite all your friends, but first set up your pad with Guards and Wards. Fun with illusions and gases!
Lomiat 01-15-07, 07:59 PM	A Yeomanry module that gave a +1 inherent bump to a stat of your choice, a +3 sacred bonus to all saves for a year, and a huge list of Regional access to armor and weapon upgrades. The upgrades went up to +4 enhancements or a straight +5, not all of them of course but a goodly number. The first thing you bought off that list was at half cost, too. I added Moderate Fortification to my +1 armor for less than 10k :D. The downside to the module? A curse that reduces your HP . . . by 1. How on Oerth did that pass the Circle reviewer? I am SOOOOOO jealous (with my wizard's odd-numbered INT).
gomeztoo 01-16-07, 03:59 AM	I know the favor of which you speak... I also know of at least one 5th level Occult Slayer and one 3rd level Holy Liberator who were more than happy to take that "curse" -- given the abilities gained at those respective levels, how big of a deal is a -5 on your Will saves? ;) At our tabel, the two fighters (Martins' char and mine) both had little trouble to accept the -5 in Will in return for the fast heal. We don't have immunity, but at least my char's will saves are still decent (+6 at lvl 10, including the -5; viva le mutt).
Sutro 01-16-07, 08:36 AM	How on Oerth did that pass the Circle reviewer? I am SOOOOOO jealous (with my wizard's odd-numbered INT). A small mitigating factor to this is that the mod in question was an end to a plotline that had gone on since the birth of the Yeomanry. But yes, it is a very nice AR. I would frame it... well, no, I wouldn't frame it, that half-price holy was just too nice.
_metz_ 01-16-07, 07:17 PM	Yeah Clannagh, I thought the contact other plane could work, maybe for AR access, but not really sure... Thats something we should check up on, but frankly as I said the other day, I agree, its more a teaser than an actual good favour lol and m, Whilst I think Armi is really funny how she picked up a french accent on conversion to Kelanen, methinks it was a side effect lol and deep down she always wanted to be french... (this part was edited m was right it was not referring to retired access and as such needed to be removed) The celestial/werebear/half silver dragon templates etc weren't that broken, cos there was a chance (its a retired mod so I can say) that you instead DIED whilst trying to get it lol, not to mention actually doing it in general putthe players at great risk, so I don't think that particular one was broken, not to mention it basically involved ruining the party's normal way of getting out of Rauxes... Admittedly they last for one module, so can anyone say two part core special? ;p
_m_ 01-16-07, 07:29 PM	Yeah Clannagh, I thought the contact other plane could work, maybe for AR access, but not really sure... Thats something we should check up on, but frankly as I said the other day, I agree, its more a teaser than an actual good favour lol and m, Whilst I think Armi is really funny how she picked up a french accent on conversion to Kelanen, methinks it was a side effect lol and deep down she always wanted to be french... As for more broken access, I saw access to any two of the +1 stat books, and the Vorpal weapon access my character has picked up (he is buying a Starmetal +1 vorpal Dwarven Waraxe) The celestial/werebear/half silver dragon templates etc weren't that broken, cos there was a chance (its a retired mod so I can say) that you instead DIED whilst trying to get it lol, not to mention actually doing it in general putthe players at great risk, so I don't think that particular one was broken, not to mention it basically involved ruining the party's normal way of getting out of Rauxes... Admittedly they last for one module, so can anyone say two part core special? ;p *cough* spoiler *cough* *grin* and EVERYONE wants to be french. what about non item / feat brokeness. can out of combat benefits be broken? what about being a ritter of perenland. does that count as broken?
Gwumph 01-16-07, 10:58 PM	m Why would a ritter be broken?? I don't see it has alot of benifit, it is just mostly a flavor meta-org
_m_ 01-16-07, 11:02 PM	m Why would a ritter be broken?? I don't see it has alot of benifit, it is just mostly a flavor meta-org it IS just flavour. but realistically, this is a ROLE play game... so if you think about it, getting to be an awsome nobility dude IS broken. its like the role play equivalent of leap attack shock trooping :D
Japangirl 01-16-07, 11:14 PM	So how broken, roleplay-wise, is the halfling going for Dread Pirate (carries 14 visible daggers and a full knife vest in the HHH) getting a parrot familiar who curses at people in Halfling?
_metz_ 01-16-07, 11:29 PM	I want one. Hang on, I want two. I'm not joking. :)
Lomiat 01-16-07, 11:31 PM	So how broken, roleplay-wise, is the halfling going for Dread Pirate (carries 14 visible daggers and a full knife vest in the HHH) getting a parrot familiar who curses at people in Halfling? There are seventy pieces tumbling down the stairs and washed into a river swiftly running into the sea, never to be reunited as a whole again. That's BROKEN.
_m_ 01-16-07, 11:55 PM	There are seventy pieces tumbling down the stairs and washed into a river swiftly running into the sea, never to be reunited as a whole again. That's BROKEN. i read that 4 times before i realised what you meant. now back on topic (sorry mommy, i'm TRYING to stay with it), can you have broken RP access? does RP even count as powerfull? does it count at all!?
Gwumph 01-17-07, 12:14 AM	Sorry still don't get it!!! And Japangirl, its a good thing our characters will never meet. LOL My character is a halfling that has a good day when he gets to kill another Halfling (and he would consider yours to be the epitomy of whats wrong with the Halfling race!!)
Japangirl 01-17-07, 12:16 AM	But but you'd be killing another soul too! I'm melded with Tanalee, NG human sorceress of the Old Faith, and you'd be killing her too. Surely your halfling wouldn't approve of that.
gomeztoo 01-17-07, 03:01 AM	The celestial/werebear/half silver dragon templates etc weren't that broken, cos there was a chance (its a retired mod so I can say) that you instead DIED whilst trying to get it lol, not to mention actually doing it in general putthe players at great risk, so I don't think that particular one was broken, not to mention it basically involved ruining the party's normal way of getting out of Rauxes... Yeah, but: - We already found a way out of Rauxes. - Even if not, the party contained Nesalia and Douwe, both PCs that wouldn't be bothered with a triffle issue like danger of dying, planar stability or having to fight our way through Acheron to get home (Nesalia had already died once in that module, though due to the nature of the environment never really noticed). - If you had a certain book, you could basically pick and choose. No chance of death whatsoever - 'Death' also had a Fort save iirc. Still, brokeness aside, a pity that only one PC got the favor... I could have had fun with the silver half-dragon template... ultimate confusion :P I wonder how many people did it. We felt morally compelled to do it (planar stability, inevitables, and our own safety be damned). It was a GOOD choice, I think. Nesalia, veteran of the eternal war of god vs evil, and with the socks to proof it.
Gwumph 01-17-07, 03:20 AM	LOL ohhhh tough decision.... Rid Oerth of yet another frivalous,flighty, pathatic, fun-inspiring, merryfull, evil Halfling and at the same time free a trapped soul from being tortured on daily basis from being witha Halfling 24/7??? Easy decision:D To Keep on line with this thread (Gwumph is a lawful creature) So far the most broken access was in a year 5 mod where you have the choice of becoming a minor noble in a dwarven clan or receiving FREE LUXURY upkeep for until your Character retires. Thats a free +4 bonus to 7 skills for the rest of your careeer pretty damn sweet
gomeztoo 01-17-07, 03:21 AM	The celestial/werebear/half silver dragon templates etc weren't that broken, cos there was a chance (its a retired mod so I can say) that you instead DIED whilst trying to get it lol, not to mention actually doing it in general putthe players at great risk, so I don't think that particular one was broken, not to mention it basically involved ruining the party's normal way of getting out of Rauxes... Yeah, but: - We already found a way out of Rauxes. - Even if not, the party contained Nesalia and Douwe, both PCs that wouldn't be bothered with a triffle issue like danger of dying, planar stability or having to fight our way through Acheron to get home (Nesalia had already died once in that module, though due to the nature of the environment never really noticed). - If you had a certain book, you could basically pick and choose. No chance of death whatsoever - 'Death' also had a Fort save iirc. Still, brokeness aside, a pity that only one PC got the favor... I could have had fun with the silver half-dragon template... ultimate confusion :P I wonder how many people did it. We felt morally compelled to do it (planar stability, inevitables, and our own safety be damned). It was a GOOD choice, I think. Nesalia, veteran of the eternal war of good vs evil, and with the socks to proof it.
Madfox11 01-17-07, 11:03 AM	Have you ever taken a look at what that werebear template does? I like the idea behind the favor, and some of the templates are reasonable compared to the chances of getting it, and the risks involved. It is just that that werebear template is so rediculous that I know of players with that favor who just don't want to use it since they prefer to at least think they will be challenged in a fight ;)
_metz_ 01-17-07, 05:14 PM	The party I DMed it for did it too, lol but unfortunateyl noone had the cookbook of evil, Alvin WOULD have been there with it but thatnks to getting arrested in Ratik he missed out on the trip, ALvin has been muttering about it for some time now... You did miss out on a pretty good reroll save favour for doing it too, I dunno, in a mod that dangerous (the DM can kill the party at any time really, and the free raise dead technially only applies in the day you are in the army) Not to mention there aren't exactly any otehr avenues to be raised, and certain favours just wouldn't work in a planar pocket. Rauxes was a very dangerous mod, I had one level 5 dwarf stressing the whole time about impending death at the APL 6, sure it was a gendwar cleric, but he took it to new levels... As such the favour seems reasonable, for the TUs and risk taken. Mods that give you great stuff for almost nothing are the ones I consider broken...
Japangirl 01-17-07, 06:47 PM	I'm still upset there was no penalty for specifically breaking your word to an epic level Inevitable though. He should have hunted all those people down who got the template (well, OK, maybe not, but something bad!). You should not be able to lie to an embodiment of Law and get away with it.
_m_ 01-17-07, 07:19 PM	The party I DMed it for did it too, lol but unfortunateyl noone had the cookbook of evil, Alvin WOULD have been there with it but thatnks to getting arrested in Ratik he missed out on the trip, ALvin has been muttering about it for some time now... You did miss out on a pretty good reroll save favour for doing it too, I dunno, in a mod that dangerous (the DM can kill the party at any time really, and the free raise dead technially only applies in the day you are in the army) Not to mention there aren't exactly any otehr avenues to be raised, and certain favours just wouldn't work in a planar pocket. Rauxes was a very dangerous mod, I had one level 5 dwarf stressing the whole time about impending death at the APL 6, sure it was a gendwar cleric, but he took it to new levels... As such the favour seems reasonable, for the TUs and risk taken. Mods that give you great stuff for almost nothing are the ones I consider broken... *mutter mutter* stupid ratik paladins and there stupid laws. *mutter* not letting me use my cookbook. *mutter*
copper_wyrmling 01-17-07, 09:05 PM	Yeah, but: - We already found a way out of Rauxes. - Even if not, the party contained Nesalia and Douwe, both PCs that wouldn't be bothered with a triffle issue like danger of dying, planar stability or having to fight our way through Acheron to get home (Nesalia had already died once in that module, though due to the nature of the environment never really noticed). - If you had a certain book, you could basically pick and choose. No chance of death whatsoever - 'Death' also had a Fort save iirc. Still, brokeness aside, a pity that only one PC got the favor... I could have had fun with the silver half-dragon template... ultimate confusion :P I wonder how many people did it. We felt morally compelled to do it (planar stability, inevitables, and our own safety be damned). It was a GOOD choice, I think. Nesalia, veteran of the eternal war of good vs evil, and with the socks to proof it. Azrien did it, and got the half-silver-dragon template :) We had an interesting party conflict over it, actually. Azrien (my Chaotic Good wild mage who worships Trithereon) refused point-blank to leave the souls trapped there, she told the party that she would stay behind on her own if necessary to complete the ritual. The Lawful Good monk and Lawful Neutral archer sided with her. The two Neutral Good clerics of Pelor and the Lawful Good fighter wanted to obey the inevitable and leave the Bloodshield alone. In the end, we compromised: half the party took the rescuees and got the inevitable to take them home while the rest of us remained in Rauxes. Then Azrien removed the Bloodshield (without benefit of cookbook), rolled randomly, and got the half-silver-dragon template (which she believes represented the awakening of her silver dragon heritage by the power of blood magic). Then we spent six TUs walking home the long way (no Kelanenites in the party) :( I think we paid an appropriate price for the favor ;)
_m_ 01-17-07, 09:22 PM	Azrien did it, and got the half-silver-dragon template :) We had an interesting party conflict over it, actually. Azrien (my Chaotic Good wild mage who worships Trithereon) refused point-blank to leave the souls trapped there, she told the party that she would stay behind on her own if necessary to complete the ritual. The Lawful Good monk and Lawful Neutral archer sided with her. The two Neutral Good clerics of Pelor and the Lawful Good fighter wanted to obey the inevitable and leave the Bloodshield alone. In the end, we compromised: half the party took the rescuees and got the inevitable to take them home while the rest of us remained in Rauxes. Then Azrien removed the Bloodshield (without benefit of cookbook), rolled randomly, and got the half-silver-dragon template (which she believes represented the awakening of her silver dragon heritage by the power of blood magic). Then we spent six TUs walking home the long way (no Kelanenites in the party) :( I think we paid an appropriate price for the favor ;) you got off easy. all i got was insanity.
gomeztoo 01-18-07, 08:53 AM	I'm still upset there was no penalty for specifically breaking your word to an epic level Inevitable though. He should have hunted all those people down who got the template (well, OK, maybe not, but something bad!). You should not be able to lie to an embodiment of Law and get away with it. We considered that risk but he had already stated he woudln't stop us or punish us, other than not helping us leave Rauxes. It would have made sense. More sense than getting a reroll (or whatever it was) for doing nothing at all. Gomez
Japangirl 01-18-07, 05:41 PM	We left some souls to wail away in pain for eternity, when even neutral PCs from the BK were a little tiny bit uncomfortable with that idea. More importantly, we kept our promise to the Inevitable, so I guess it decided we weren't so chaotic after all. It would be wrong, but oh well, right? And the favor is reroll a save that failing would kill you. Ie Implosion, Disintegrate, things like that. Pretty cool, but I'm not sure it's as cool as the template.
Haro 01-19-07, 08:27 AM	So far the most broken access was in a year 5 mod where you have the choice of becoming a minor noble in a dwarven clan or receiving FREE LUXURY upkeep for until your Character retires. Thats a free +4 bonus to 7 skills for the rest of your careeer pretty damn sweet The luxury upkeep was only usable in regional mods for one year from memory, so probably not quite as bad as you make it sound. IUZ5-07 Tides of War had a much better free upkeep favour. Oh, and those vampires, hiding in the steam in gaseous form until the party arrives (not expecting this to be 'the' encounter in my party's case) were one of the toughest battles I've ever fought in LG. You needed to beat them then find the mine shaft to get the favour. To paraphrase Principal Skinner the vampires were like the Roadrunner - they just wouldn't go down... Joe
gomeztoo 01-19-07, 09:22 AM	And the favor is reroll a save that failing would kill you. Ie Implosion, Disintegrate, things like that. Pretty cool, but I'm not sure it's as cool as the template. It would have been cool to get an AR entry for freeing them though, rather than for NOT freeing them. Needn't not be possitive, mind. An "all inevitables now hate you" entry would have been cool too. What use is it to be chaotic otherwise?
Mommy was an Orc 01-19-07, 09:32 AM	It would have been cool to get an AR entry for freeing them though, rather than for NOT freeing them. Needn't not be possitive, mind. An "all inevitables now hate you" entry would have been cool too. What use is it to be chaotic otherwise? Well, the fun of being a high UMD character with access to weaponry that wants you to be an alignment other than Chaotic, a high Bluff/Disguise skill, and useful other spells. "Oh, I'm a Paladin of Heironeous. See, I'm wielding their holy sword. I couldn't do that otherwise, right?" ;)
Japangirl 01-19-07, 12:22 PM	Well, the fun of being a high UMD character with access to weaponry that wants you to be an alignment other than Chaotic, a high Bluff/Disguise skill, and useful other spells. "Oh, I'm a Paladin of Heironeous. See, I'm wielding their holy sword. I couldn't do that otherwise, right?" ;) I wish warlocks were allowed. Take 10 on UMD is so so very awesome. CE warlocks wielding Holy Avengers, anyone?
RanielK 01-19-07, 12:41 PM	Which is to say, if I roll a 1, I have the same caster level I'd have normally. That's why it isn't getting errata'd - I'm probably the only UMD specialist in the world with access to the item, and I'm not planning to buy it - because it is far too broken to use even once a day at APL 8-10. The item is horribly mispriced - even with its limitations, it should be a 50K+ item in terms of cost. No, my UMD like mad Wild Mage has access. Only problem is he's stuck in a glacier, pretty much for ever. He also had access to Nymph's Kiss by, well, kissing a nymph and a handy dandy Fire Res 10 braclet for free. Though the braclet broke last year.
RanielK 01-19-07, 12:54 PM	The celestial/werebear/half silver dragon templates etc weren't that broken, cos there was a chance (its a retired mod so I can say) that you instead DIED whilst trying to get it lol, not to mention actually doing it in general putthe players at great risk, so I don't think that particular one was broken, not to mention it basically involved ruining the party's normal way of getting out of Rauxes...;p Damn, yet another thing my "stuck in a glacier" Wild Mage got access to. I'm now thinking I don't want good access because all the best ends up on the guy who gets removed from the game. :weep:
DragonKnight82 01-19-07, 03:04 PM	A Yeomanry module that gave a +1 inherent bump to a stat of your choice, a +3 sacred bonus to all saves for a year, and a huge list of Regional access to armor and weapon upgrades. The upgrades went up to +4 enhancements or a straight +5, not all of them of course but a goodly number. The first thing you bought off that list was at half cost, too. I added Moderate Fortification to my +1 armor for less than 10k :D. The downside to the module? A curse that reduces your HP . . . by 1. Actually, I asked the Triad if this Favor granted access after the first item, and they said no. In short, I was told that it was a Favor that is used up after you choose 1 upgrade. It also does not count as access for MIC. I've still go the email if you'd like me to forward you a copy.
Japangirl 01-19-07, 03:08 PM	Well, I know it doesn't count for MIC purposes, because favors in the top half never do. But yes, I would like to see the e-mail that says you have to pick one of them ever (PM me, I guess) because the wording of the favor is very poor if that is the case. I know you only get 50% off the first one you buy, however, if that is what you meant. Just for all the people who don't have it, this is YEO 5-07 Blighted Souls so I am going to copy the text of the favor, since it is retired. "Favor of the Yeomanry Government: You have prevented the greatest threat to the Yeomanry League ever imagined, by destroying the Great Machine. As a reward for your selfless actions, undertaking a dangerous adventure without having been activated by your respective superiors, you receive the following favor from the Government. You gain access (Frequency: Regional and Metaregional) to the following upgrades (based on the results of the adventure, circle the one selected), and the next time you purchase one, and only one, of these upgrades, it costs 50% less than normal: bane (undead) weapon special ability, light fortification armor/shield special ability, +2 enhancement bonus (one celestial freed); holy weapon special ability, spell resistance (13) armor/shield special ability, +3 enhancement bonus (two celestials freed); speed weapon special ability, moderate fortification armor/shield special ability, +4 enhancement bonus (all celestials freed); brilliant energy weapon special ability, spell resistance (17) armor/shield special ability, +5 enhancement bonus (all celestials freed and Shadow of Asberdies defeated)."
Lord Yod 01-20-07, 12:15 PM	That reads to me as: 'You get access(Regional/Metaregional) to all of these. The first one you buy is half price.' And of course some of the list might be crossed off, but it still seems pretty straightforward. Wouldn't the triad need to issue an errata for the AR in order to change it?
Japangirl 01-20-07, 03:15 PM	That reads to me as: 'You get access(Regional/Metaregional) to all of these. The first one you buy is half price.' And of course some of the list might be crossed off, but it still seems pretty straightforward. That's how I read it also. However, DragonKnight82 sent me the Triad e-mail and that is what was said, that you only got to use it for one upgrade ever. However poor I find that person's reading of the English language, it is unfortunately a formal ruling until stated otherwise by another person on the Yeomanry Triad or overruled by an official AR errata.
DragonKnight82 01-20-07, 03:38 PM	I think that they ruled it more because that's the way it was supposed to work, as opposed to the way it reads. I do agree that they need to issue an errata on this if they don't want to confuse people. I just feel sorry for any people who have already used the AR the way it reads and bought multiple upgrades.
Gwumph 01-21-07, 03:01 AM	Hey Haro Just reread that favor and no-where does it mention a time frame. It says that your character now has a luxury up-keep in any Perrenland regional mod. For long term effects it is awesome. We had 1 player join us and it was his first mod ever (we played APL-4) so now for the rest of his careeer in Perrenland he will be living luxury lifestyle for free!!! Maybe not most broken, but pretty damn broken!!:)
Haro 01-21-07, 10:20 AM	Hey Haro Just reread that favor and no-where does it mention a time frame. It says that your character now has a luxury up-keep in any Perrenland regional mod. For long term effects it is awesome. We had 1 player join us and it was his first mod ever (we played APL-4) so now for the rest of his careeer in Perrenland he will be living luxury lifestyle for free!!! Maybe not most broken, but pretty damn broken!!:) You are correct and you have my apologies, as I said it was from memory. Assuming that character would otherwise take standard upkeep, the favour imparts a saving of 12gp per module and a +4 circumstance bonus to Charisma checks, which doesn't stack with the plethora of other circumstance bonuses various favours and metaorgs provide. If given a choice, I'll take that Yeomanry favour Japangirl mentioned! ;-) Joe
Lord Yod 01-21-07, 10:17 PM	That's how I read it also. However, DragonKnight82 sent me the Triad e-mail and that is what was said, that you only got to use it for one upgrade ever. However poor I find that person's reading of the English language, it is unfortunately a formal ruling until stated otherwise by another person on the Yeomanry Triad or overruled by an official AR errata. I thought that the AR rules, no matter what, until an errata is issued?
DragonKnight82 01-21-07, 10:42 PM	I thought that the AR rules, no matter what, until an errata is issued? TMK, it does. I suppose using the word errata was a little excessive. More like a clarification, because it really could be read both ways.