Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Haro 05-10-07, 03:11 AM	What is the most enjoyable APL to play LG? People have commented on the breakdown of the CR rules at high levels resulting in less enjoyable combats. With the reality that combat takes so much longer at high levels compared to lower levels and is generally over in one or two rounds, is it more fun to play mid level where your PCs may not have developed all their cool abilities but combats allow you to be more tactical and can involve momentum shifts? Is it more fun at lower levels, where the simplicity of the game is at the fore? Unfortunately, due to the incredible amount of options and unforeseen synergies between PrCs, feats and spells, I believe that the 3.5 system is slowly breaking down with every book that is released. For that reason, I just don't seem to enjoy high level play as much as say, APL 6-8. Thoughts? Joe
_metz_ 05-10-07, 03:19 AM	APL 8 Characters think they are awesome wth 4th level spells, the monsters start being quote variant and nasty, and Classes start to come into their roleplaying without necessarily their crazier abilities (e.g: low level occult slayers, etc) Also the curves of certain characters haven't deviated as much, you can still be slightly underpowered or not an optimal fighter/caster and still be useful. APL 6 is good also, its just that its often a bump from 4 with just harder advanced monsters rather than a change in the actual beastie... You can get some real nasty things at APL 8 too, so still can be crazy hard (I know of one such mod out right now that would terrify people if they knew what was going to hit them)
Shieldhart91 05-10-07, 03:40 AM	APL 6-8 would have to be my answer as well. Characters don't start getting juicy until Level 4, and they start to get fun at Levels 5, 6, or 7. Lower APLs are just...boring. My reason for this would be that at APL 2, your character's life can be ended with one crit from a greataxe-ing Orc, or just a well-rolled Scorching Ray. Then it's just game over. Healing is less prevalent. APL 4 is okay, but this too is kind of boring. Leave it to concealment to make a battle go downhill. At APL 6 to 8, you start getting nifty magic items and such, and things become easier, yet still challenging. I love bring my Knight with his Adamantine Greatsword. "What? There's a door there? Not anymore." *SLICE* APL 10 is okay at times too, but towards APL 14-16...it just gets drawn out a lot.
copper_wyrmling 05-10-07, 04:00 AM	Eh, I think I prefer the high APLs (10+, maybe 12+), but ONLY if everyone at the table, especially the GM, knows what they're doing - that may not mean playing an optimized build, but it does mean knowing how your PC works and having a good understanding of your options, or for the GM, being well-prepared with all the monsters' abilities. I also prefer to play high-APL games in a home setting, rather than conventions, unless the GM is very good at pacing. I've been playing quite a bit of APL 2-6 recently with my low-level sorcerer, and I just don't enjoy it as much: it's much easier for combats (or traps) to blow up in your face just because of bad dicerolls, combats can get hideously drawn out when dealing with stuff like swarms / incorporeality / hardness (or in one of the worse cases I've seen, incorporeal swarms with DR... that took ages), and creative solutions are limited by the narrower range of options available to you. At high APLs there's more opportunity for interesting synergies, both between different abilities of an individual PC and between separate PCs; also, people tend to have deeper links to their region and the NPCs, and generally better developed characters (with longer backstories / histories ;) ), as you go higher in level. Of course, part of it is just characters: one of my PCs is noticeably more fun to play than the others, so I suspect if you asked me my favorite APL at any given point over the last couple of years there would be a distinct correlation with Azrien's level at that time :)
Madfox11 05-10-07, 04:04 AM	Unfortunately, due to the incredible amount of options and unforeseen synergies between PrCs, feats and spells, I believe that the 3.5 system is slowly breaking down with every book that is released. ::shrug:: The brokeness was there is the core rules and the extra's from the new books don't have that big an impact on the game in this regards. I mean, the fighter around here that deals a huge amount of damage per hit does so with Power Attack and an animated shield. It is just a basic fact of this game that above APL 10 the system becomes more difficult to balance and much more difficult to correctly predict the powers of the PCs. Personally I like to run games at all APLs, although at APL 12+ it greatly depends on the players and adventure. So in general I favor APL 2 to 8.
Southernskies 05-10-07, 06:10 AM	APL6-8, stretching to APL10 with good balance. For a good game, your arcane need access to "fireball" and other area effects/major buffs. The fighters need their second attack. And everyone enjoys their P-class if they wanted one.
Redfist 05-10-07, 01:40 PM	Depends on my mood although most of the time, I'd answer APL 12+. I enjoy watching the synergy of feats/PrCs/etc. APL 6-8 can be fun because PCs are just beginning to shine. APL 2-4 can be fun but usually not as much (for me). To be honest though, it's the players at a table that make it fun or not fun for me. There are some gross sterotypes associated with APLs (yeah - not always true - hence the use of the term sterotype). Low APL: New *players*. They can either be a lot of fun to watch them enjoy the game and learn **OR** quite annoying if they keep complaining bitterly that their view of what "should happen" isn't modeled in the rules. High APL: Can be loads of fun when people have good builds and/or good attitudes and strategy. Can be annoying when people go beyond "cheesing their build" and firmly into the realm of bending/breaking rules. Like watching the "shrink 5000lb item" and drop it on someone cheese. Or the "drop a pack of 100 fireseeds while I have prot fire up and argue that each individual seed fails to exceed their own prot" cheese. etc... So - I know I went on a little tangent for me. In general terms, I like APL 12+ the best. However, player mix is what makes/breaks a specific table for me. --Gordon
amnuxoll 05-10-07, 02:18 PM	Mark me down for APL 8 also but APL 6 is a close second. :AMN:
King Kashue 05-10-07, 02:27 PM	APLs 6-10 are all great, with 8 being the most fun for me.
JohnduBois 05-10-07, 04:36 PM	I like playing and DMing 6-10 the best, with 8 being the sweet spot. At those APLs, both PCs and NPCs are typically good and interesting without being outright cheesy.
Mattastrophic 05-10-07, 04:56 PM	As high as possible. There's nothing quite like a tense high-stakes combat against EL=APL+5 opponents where you're cancelling save-or-die spells or barely surviving because you're in exactly the right square or you make the big save exactly after adding up all your buffs. -Matt
Sieylianna 05-10-07, 05:50 PM	I'd say APL 6. You have third level spells, but you don't have so many options that combat takes forever. APL 4 is probably the next best. (I'd also include APL 2, but it's too easy to die at 1st level). Ed
Genghis Cohen 05-10-07, 08:27 PM	Who is at my table, the playing environment, and the storyline of the adventure have a far, far greater impact on my enjoyment of the game than the APL. My least favorite APL in LG is 6. This is because you sit down with a lot of players who are inexperienced and built their characters with an APL 2 mentality. That jump to APL 6 is brutal, and those with effective characters have to carry the burden. For me, the higher the APL the better. I like a good challenge. I've played a lot more APL 4 than APL 12 and I know what to expect at APL 4. Its like wash, rinse, repeat. Higher APL tables tend to have much more experienced players. I like playing with capable players because I learn from them. I also like that the tactics can gel together quickly. A well coordinated party has less internal conflict, and I find that this makes for a more enjoyable experience.
solbergb 05-10-07, 08:39 PM	With me it totally depends on the character. With my sorcerer - she's fun to play but is always striving for more. In her mind she already has the next abilities she's striving for. She won't be "Relaxing" to play until APL15. Every level she has had new toys to play with, so it's all been fun. My dwarf has a bit of a dip in effectiveness between levels 5-8. He's a fun character anyway but he has more options in the lower and in the higher levels than in the mid levels. (he counts as a primary melee in levels 1-4. He's just a cork in 5-8 with minor support abilities. He's a full-on powerful support character from 9-15 who can be the powerful melee guy if the situation requires it too). My pouncekitty druid is kind of similar except that her scouting abilities start coming online in the 5-8 game as her melee abilities start to slip a little, but she was designed for a smoother progression than Mogoom was. It's more like the curve is flatter, then gets steeper at level 9+, when a bunch of synergies come together. My archer has one of the smoothest progressions of any of my characters. He does the same things for a level 2 party that he does for a level 14 party. In his mind the only difference is he needs bigger toys and bigger numbers to protect his daughter from the increasingly dangerous things she sticks her nose into. I dunno - I tend to like all levels of the game, but a lot of that is I deliberately design my characters to not have levels where they "suck", and try to make each new level be an "event" (if nothing fun much comes from class levels, I try to time a big purchase around then). Some characters mature and change as they level (eg, my monk), others are the same guy, just more powerful (eg, my archer). Some I don't know how they'll turn out, but it is fun watching them "grow up". For roleplay, the best times seem to be about APL4 and APL12+. APL4 is when the character is shiny and new and exciting for the player, but when the player has found his "voice"/style. APL2 is still kinda "Fred's turn. Oh yeah, I'm Fred. I never played a melee before. What do I do now?". At APL12, characters have usually achieved most of their initial goals and their personalities and combat styles are now shaped by years of play so the player has more time to focus on random roleplay. They have friends, enemies and are invested in the campaign. For some reason levels 6-10 sometimes seem awkward for roleplay - the characters are no longer newbies but many are doing PRC transitions, or have players that are so caught up in figuring out how to use the new fancy abilities they forget to roleplay. It isn't an accident that the only party I've ever seen destroyed by well-intentioned roleplay and the closest I've come to a TPK was at APL14, with players I'd gamed with an entire convention, round after round. Had we just gone in with a silence field and gunned down the NPC's without talking, we would have done MUCH better. high level games though only have roleplay if the judge can run combats briskly. Otherwise time pressures get in the way.
Lomiat 05-11-07, 02:51 PM	I prefer high APL. I'm still playing my first two PCs through the campaign, and they're hitting APLs 12 and 14 now. I'm excited to play APL 16 sometime, and I plan to send my wizard to the high-level campaign if I can find anyone else to form a table with me. High APLs have not only the advantages that others have mentioned (like fully developed personae), but they also just offer PCs more stuff to do. Combats may end after a one-hour round, but casters, especially, have more options available to them. At lower APLs, casters have to make every spell a combat spell; at higher APLs, they're likely going to cast no more than 6 to 9 combat spells in an adventure (and that's assuming that up to 3 are quickened). That leaves a lot of room for creative use of magic. Notably, I've had much less fun in combats lately with my fighter-type than with my wizard. The tripper's played out his tripping fun. Power Attack and damage gets old, too; if he didn't have a fun personality, I'd already be done with him. I'd wager that the majority of the players who prefer the lower APL ranges tend to prefer melee or archer types over straight casters, and that, most likely, the players who prefer casters (and magic) tend to prefer the higher APLs.
amnuxoll 05-11-07, 03:06 PM	I'd wager that the majority of the players who prefer the lower APL ranges tend to prefer melee or archer types over straight casters, and that, most likely, the players who prefer casters (and magic) tend to prefer the higher APLs. You'd lose that wager with me. :AMN:
Japangirl 05-11-07, 03:45 PM	Me too. Rogues at high levels are hilariously fun to play.
solbergb 05-11-07, 06:02 PM	Yeh...my wife actually hits complexity locks on her high level cleric fairly often and the druid hit that at even lower levels. Plus she feels guilty when her stuff works and she ends an encounter suddenly. Although that can happen with high level melees too. Or archers.
Sieylianna 05-11-07, 10:22 PM	Me too. Rogues at high levels are hilariously fun to play. Me three. My highest level PCs are a pure wizard and a pure druid. Ed
UMiskatonic 05-12-07, 09:16 PM	I don't understand the comment about being one crit away from death at APL 2. My 9th level paladin was critically hit by a fire giant with a greatsword and power attack. I wen't from totally fine to -10 in six seconds. I prefer higher APLs, but I find that my tolerance for poor play rapidly disappears at APLs 8+. IF you don't know what you are doing, I'd rather play APL 4 with ya.
_metz_ 05-12-07, 10:50 PM	Me too. Rogues at high levels are hilariously fun to play. I know, My highest atm is a level 7 Rogue 1 Dread Pirate, but its so much fun its great - loving it! Managed to save half the party and complete the mission yesterday too after being unconcious the whole fight, so they can be useful too...
magebeast 05-13-07, 12:09 AM	I don't understand the comment about being one crit away from death at APL 2. My 9th level paladin was critically hit by a fire giant with a greatsword and power attack. I wen't from totally fine to -10 in six seconds. I prefer higher APLs, but I find that my tolerance for poor play rapidly disappears at APLs 8+. IF you don't know what you are doing, I'd rather play APL 4 with ya. Delay death is a potential option at that level. Not always available, but an option. Less so at APL 2.
_metz_ 05-13-07, 08:59 PM	Meh, relying on Delay death can be a very dangerous tactic. If you keep playing suicidly and delaying death, then the monsters will just go kill the cleric... Delay death isn't a factor of fun, its a way to stay alive.
Redfist 05-14-07, 12:21 AM	The answer to Delay Death... Dispel Magic. :D
Sieylianna 05-14-07, 07:54 AM	I don't understand the comment about being one crit away from death at APL 2. My 9th level paladin was critically hit by a fire giant with a greatsword and power attack. I wen't from totally fine to -10 in six seconds. I prefer higher APLs, but I find that my tolerance for poor play rapidly disappears at APLs 8+. IF you don't know what you are doing, I'd rather play APL 4 with ya. Maybe I've been lucky, but I don't think I've seen anyone die to a single melee attack above APL 6 or so. I've played APL 16 with players who have no business being there. The character qualifies in terms of levels, but the players don't understand high-level tactics and spells. It's not a lot of fun. Ed
Japangirl 05-14-07, 12:27 PM	I have! It doesn't happen terribly often, but crits still kill. At APL 16, an archer got critted in the surprise round for 148+8d6 damage. Crits kill no matter what, it's not APL dependent. It's just that at higher levels, the crit mitigation is much higher (Fortification on armor, various PrCs that give immunity to crits, killing monsters faster, higher initiative bonuses on average) so it's possible to not have anyone die if you are very lucky.
GrahamWills 05-14-07, 12:49 PM	I'll go with the main crowd: 4-8 D&D has characters diverge pretty linearly in ability up to epic levels. This means that if you are comparing a character who tries hard to do X and one who doesn't try hard to do X, then at APL: 2: They are not much different 4: You can notice the difference 6: They are clearly different 8: The better character is much better, the other character is still useful 10: The better character is WAY better, the other character might help 12+: If you are not the main character, don't bother I think this is why the 4-8 range is good. The character that doesn't want to maximize damage via power attack and feats to improve that still is useful. At higher levels, there's no real point him trying to do damage. The caster with empower rods, split ray and spellwar sniper is dealing flaming death at high levels, leaving the generalist far enough behind that they shouldn't bother competing. I have a grappling monk. At APL4-8, he'd grapple very well or flurry for damage usefully. At APL 10-12, he can still grapple very well, but there's no point him trying to cause damage. And his spot is typically 10+ the rest of the party's best -- no real reason for them to roll. For my money, at high APLs, characters become more one-dimensional. You no longer have a continuum of things you do. You are either good or bad. You either spot the DC35 thing all of the time, or never. For me, that's less fun.
solbergb 05-14-07, 02:18 PM	I have a grappling monk. At APL4-8, he'd grapple very well or flurry for damage usefully. At APL 10-12, he can still grapple very well, but there's no point him trying to cause damage. And his spot is typically 10+ the rest of the party's best -- no real reason for them to roll. That's kind of odd, because what makes you good at grappling (high str/bab) is what makes you good at full attack, especially when improved flurry kicks in at 11 and your fists do 2d6 at level 12. My monk was probabably weakest in the APL8-10 range. His tactical feats worked extremely well in APL2-6, and his flurries got really nasty after level 11 (and the curve has increased, rather than decreased since then, whereas the tactial feats only work on the kinds of enemies that aren't big and strong) He still messes up the weaklings with his tactical feats, and he pounds the snot out of the big strong monsters. I can understand a stunning-fist-strength-dumped monk feeling ineffectual in the last third of the campaign level range. I don't understand why a grappling monk would feel that way unless he invested no feats or equipment into raw damage after level 6. One thing that really helps is that GMW+3 is readily available in the APL12+ game.
KShaver 05-14-07, 02:51 PM	I don't understand the comment about being one crit away from death at APL 2. My 9th level paladin was critically hit by a fire giant with a greatsword and power attack. I wen't from totally fine to -10 in six seconds. A higher % of creatures are capable of the insta-crit kills at the lower APLs. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen at the high levels, just that it does not occur as often. Creatures are more likely to spread their damage out over several natural weapons or iterative attacks as opposed to the one attack you usually see from the raging orc barbarian at APL2.
Vamroc 05-14-07, 03:09 PM	I would say APL6 this way 4s get a challenge when playing up and 8s get a chance to play down without combat being a bore. I've played down from 8 just to help a couple of 4s make it through some APL6 mods and still had a hard time.
Rerednaw 05-14-07, 05:52 PM	Hmmm, I guess I am in the minority. I like intro mods. Because the writer is limited in how many combats (particularly those that have insta-death-machine monsters), I find that there is actually a bit more of background and story. And as a low level you really have to be creative with limited resources. My next consideration is who I'm playing with. APL2 can be a heck of a lot more fun with people who know what they are doing than say APL10 with a bunch of people who don't. I will admit though there are times when I like rolling over an encounter with a single spell. Granted at APL8 it was only a level 2 spell so the same would have applied at APL2. :)
cheeky_ktty 05-14-07, 11:04 PM	I personally enjoy intros more. I guess its because people seem to have more fun in them and mod writers make them just a little silly. I'm just getting into the high level games now, and my first apl 12 ended with my poor level 10 roasted like a chicken (she was in the wildshape form of a parrot at the time). DM: Ok, thats 70+ fire damage, reflex saves!! Me: (Fails save) I onlt have 52 hp :bigeyes:
Japangirl 05-14-07, 11:32 PM	DM: Ok, thats 70+ fire damage, reflex saves!! Me: (Fails save) I onlt have 52 hp :bigeyes: 10 Con??? That was your first mistake. Just goes to show . . . not that I blame you for it, but it's why I always argue for a 14 Con :).
_metz_ 05-15-07, 04:25 AM	Thats a "call in a favour for a rerolled save" moment for sure... I played an APL 10 the other day that was just ludicrous lol, the EL of 13 made no sense to anyone at the table, including the GM and the senior GM, we looked at the stats afterwards and the mod was just stacking things that didn't increase CR like crazy... (also the mod basically only had the one encounter if you did things right)
JohnduBois 05-15-07, 08:31 AM	Thats a "call in a favour for a rerolled save" moment for sure... I played an APL 10 the other day that was just ludicrous lol, the EL of 13 made no sense to anyone at the table, including the GM and the senior GM, we looked at the stats afterwards and the mod was just stacking things that didn't increase CR like crazy... (also the mod basically only had the one encounter if you did things right) (Turn on "broken record mode") I don't think I've yet said this in this thread, but I know I've said it elsewhere, so I'll make it fast: When you see these issues, please make it a point to tell your Triad or Circle (whichever is appropriate). While they may or may not errata the mod, they will certainly know what not to do next time. At least in my region, feedback of that nature is always appreciated.
_metz_ 05-15-07, 12:03 PM	Meh, I don't really need to gripe, and I know who I should contact. Thing is I am not actually complaining, just stating how much more challenging higher APL games are. The mod was actually excellent, just perhaps didn't scale well. The good thing about it was the critters actually were supposed to be there (many mods have everything with the fiendish template for no reason other than it allows it to be tougher rather than any plot related reason) Oh and it was a core mod, but I am fine with it - just an unexpected challenge. Character ended up calling in a favour to teleport to a Duchy of Urnst Pelorite Temple with bodies of fallen compatriots in my bag of holding after turning on a greater invis to escape... Was very cinematic (And we managed to achieve the mission too)
clannagh 05-15-07, 07:19 PM	10 Con??? That was your first mistake. Just goes to show . . . not that I blame you for it, but it's why I always argue for a 14 Con :). K's AH has at least 12 CON maybe 14 cannot recall precisely ... but she has taken a lot of levels of sorceror which drag the HP down .. and when wild shaped into a parrot for roleplay reasons any con amulets are not going to be working under the new rules either.
cheeky_ktty 05-16-07, 01:26 AM	My unfortunate Arcane Heirophant, does indeed have more than 10 con. And yes, Metz, I spent a good part of the rest of the encounter looking for a re-roll favor.. -Good News, I had a free raise dead favor, -Bad News, I didn't have a re-roll favor. Oh well, at least she still got access to those beautiful meta-magic rods of empowered :love:
_metz_ 05-16-07, 01:38 AM	Ah good you went with the Sorcerer Arcane Heirophant, I thought you might with your rebuild. I unfortunately have lots of re rolled saves, but no free raise deads lol. Trade you one for one? heehee ;) Sarian came so close to death its not funny - ran in the room got dropped to -9 and the rest of the party was put in Deeper Darkness (couldn't reach next round) But fortunately I had the Second Wind card - yay! On a side note. Meta magic rods of Empower are fun :)
cheeky_ktty 05-16-07, 01:44 AM	Ah good you went with the Sorcerer Arcane Heirophant, I thought you might with your rebuild. I unfortunately have lots of re rolled saves, but no free raise deads lol. Trade you one for one? heehee ;) Sarian came so close to death its not funny - ran in the room got dropped to -9 and the rest of the party was put in Deeper Darkness (couldn't reach next round) But fortunately I had the Second Wind card - yay! On a side note. Meta magic rods of Empower are fun :) I am aware of the fun-ness of rods of empowered, the best part is I have enough gold for two. Along with her rods of extend, Slvana is enjoying the happiness of having a billion spells, and- I might add, her fellow party members are enjoying her extended haste. The other thing is she now has no free raise deads, but she is loved by Moradin, and lots of other people. Favors galor for Silvana!
_metz_ 05-16-07, 03:25 AM	I like sorcerer druid Arcane Heirophants Stupid amount of spells. (Just like Sorcerer Favoured Soul Theurges) Only problem is the high level spells. Got to be level 7 before you get AH Happening. But that happens to any theurgy class.
cheeky_ktty 05-16-07, 11:11 PM	I like sorcerer druid Arcane Heirophants Stupid amount of spells. (Just like Sorcerer Favoured Soul Theurges) Only problem is the high level spells. Got to be level 7 before you get AH Happening. But that happens to any theurgy class. High level blasting spells isn't Silvana's area of expertise. I didn't want to make a stereo-typical-blow-things-up sorceress. She enjoys augment summoning her cute little dire wolves, and letting them go to town on whatever the party is fighting. They're also good for flanking:D
GenghisBob 05-17-07, 03:23 AM	I find that APl 6 - 8 is the most deadliest. The critters start to come unhinged when they are advanced in the stat blocks and are usually more deadly then the PCS. I think I have seen more PC deaths in that range then others. APL10-12 is ok Although It is annoying to play with PCs that still have not hit their sweet spot in the complex builds. "You wait till i hit x level , then you'll see" - Sure, just stay down for this encounter...again. 12-16 Is ok. Combats are either over in one or two rounds or go on for ever. Usually people die from Save or die rather than HP loss. Still lots of PC death but not as much as APL 6-8. Personally I like playing Intro to ApL 6 , but thats becuase people think about things more and try and solve problems with items from the PHB or their skills and conserve their magic more. I find from APl8 + people get a little blase with their abilities and dont really have to work to solve things. Or maybe the challenges are harder to write at those APLs? I also find that Role Play is usually higher in the lower APLs, mainly becasue people that have played Higher APL realsie how much time is needed for Higher APL fights sometimes (with mutli attacks, numerous Free actions extra spells, Companions, Summoned things and stuff and stuff) and deliberatly keep RP to a minimum to ensure the high apl games finish on time, so they kind of lash out in the lower apl games where there is a percieved breather and and extra time to Role Play. GB
King Kashue 05-17-07, 04:19 AM	APL10-12 is ok Although It is annoying to play with PCs that still have not hit their sweet spot in the complex builds. "You wait till i hit x level , then you'll see" - Sure, just stay down for this encounter...again. Pet peeve of mine :D If your build sucks at lvl 10, then your build sucks...I don't care how amazing you're going to be for the 12 adventures you play while you're 15
Haro 05-17-07, 04:51 AM	Pet peeve of mine :D If your build sucks at lvl 10, then your build sucks...I don't care how amazing you're going to be for the 12 adventures you play while you're 15 Pet peeve? GB and I spent 4 days over 2 weekends with a guy that kept saying his build would be awesome at 15...sheesh! ;) I would say by the looks of the thread so far that most people, like myself, prefer APL 6-8. Joe
_metz_ 05-17-07, 05:53 AM	After APL 8 its pretty clear there is less time for roleplaying, as combats become crazy. Also less need for investigating etc - Divinations, Bloodhounds, etc slowly remove a lot of the roleplaying stuff in mods. Below APL 6 funky stuff like spells, feat chains, cool abilities haven;t kicked in yet. Also monsters are less cool to fight - Stuff like Babaus/Vampires are crazy hard to fight but at the same time much more entertaining and satisfying than just Gnolls with class levels. You get some good variation and some more funky stuff. but at the same time all the really powerful stuff (Power Attack, Spirited charge, Lance on a T - Rex) High level Spells and Prestige classes haven't kicked in yet, and there is roleplaying but not necessarily some of the crazier abilities (Occult Slayer 5 for example) The problem with Intros is that there is less funky stuff, more just time consuming encounters, and if anything is actually dangerous, you can die in one hit. SO whilst there is more roleplaying, there is also less funky monsters, treasure, and many other reasons for adventuring.
Sieylianna 05-17-07, 08:10 AM	Only problem is the high level spells. Got to be level 7 before you get AH Happening. But that happens to any theurgy class. Actually AH is worse bcause it also has a BAB requirement. So I don't think you can start it until 8th. Ed
_metz_ 05-17-07, 09:41 AM	Nah you need BAB of +4 - which you get with 4 sorcerer and 3 druid. (Druid BAB +2 at 3rd level, Sorcerer +2 at 4th level) Hence 7th level. Best way to go is Druid3 Wiz3 MT2 AH7 If you want Spell Progression. But hey, its not always about being optimal right Kat? (Looks at Sarian who should have taken Swashbuckler and Daring outlaw.. etc etc...)
AOSOL 05-17-07, 12:08 PM	APL 12 comes in at #2 because it probably the most balanced but APL 16 is still where the sweetness is for me.
magebeast 05-17-07, 12:47 PM	Nah you need BAB of +4 - which you get with 4 sorcerer and 3 druid. Hence you would start the AH class at 8th level?
_metz_ 05-17-07, 09:57 PM	Thats what I said - Got to be level 7 BEFORE AH starts happening. I wish people would read my posts before jumping up at me... ;)
GenghisBob 05-18-07, 03:53 AM	SO whilst there is more roleplaying, there is also less funky monsters, treasure, and many other reasons for adventuring.. I guess its what your personal prefernce is. More funky stuff or more role play.
GenghisBob 05-18-07, 04:08 AM	Pet peeve? GB and I spent 4 days over 2 weekends with a guy that kept saying his build would be awesome at 15...sheesh! ;) I would say by the looks of the thread so far that most people, like myself, prefer APL 6-8. Joe Well, that was only part of it. The PC refused to puchase a Magic weapon, becasue it wanted to save cash for when it could change to its builds Weapon of choice in x more levels when a Class Level kicked in... It was frustrating when one of us had to stop doing somethign 'powerful' to powerup a 10gp weapon or Pick his dead useless body up and stuff it in a back pack.... - dont misunderstand me, some PCs can get by without a magic weapon, Like My Paladin who can power it up her self or a Cleric or Gish. But Front liners and Light Infantry with no self help means need a magic weapon for 10th level play. WE ended up buying him a weapon when he was dead, whilst he was waiting for his Raise Dead...
King Kashue 05-18-07, 04:36 AM	But Front liners and Light Infantry with no self help means need a magic weapon for 10th level play. Naw, I play APL 12 all the time and use my magic weapon for maybe 15-20% of all fights... Of course, that PC is a warshaper with 42 Str, so that helps some...:D
AOSOL 05-18-07, 01:18 PM	"Of course, that PC is a warshaper with 42 Str, so that helps some...:D" 42 strength PCs........two rounds!:devil: I don't how you do it but i guess I'll come up with the answer soon enough. Anyway if your not swinging a magic beat stick and your a beef cake by 10th level you probably took skill focus appraise as well so your beyond help. :rolleyes:
magebeast 05-18-07, 05:38 PM	Eck nevermind this would start a stupid argument
GenghisBob 05-18-07, 06:40 PM	Naw, I play APL 12 all the time and use my magic weapon for maybe 15-20% of all fights...Of course, that PC is a warshaper with 42 Str, so that helps some...:D Yah, you knew what i meant. Your just showing of now ;) GB
King Kashue 05-18-07, 07:03 PM	Your just showing of now ;) Yes...yes I am...:D
dkay807 05-19-07, 01:28 AM	Bandwagon! I'd say APL 8 is my favorite APL. APL 8 is where you begin to see the greatest separation between the various classes, and it is, in my opinion, the greatest leap in challenge (from APL 6). APL 2 is relatively boring, and I am often frustrated with the frequent lack of challenge at APL 16 or APL 18 (which no longer exists). I have recently come to the decision that APL 16 is for interactive play only, when things can get really fun. I guess in conclusion... Standard module play - APL 8 is my favorite because it feels, at least to me, to to be the purest form of the game Intractives/Special Missions - APL 16+ is my favorite because it's ALL about tactics. There's no room for mistakes - if you take the wrong action in just one round, it could be the end (of course other times, it doesn't matter because it's just too easy).