Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jesse Heinig 05-29-07, 06:00 PM	So I'm most likely moving to San Francisco in the near future - but I hate Pholtus and the whole Theocracy of the Pale (in the game, not the players and organizers). What the heck should I do? I can still play cores but I'll run out of those really quickly . . .
danhenneke 05-29-07, 06:21 PM	It is one of the effects of regions. At least that region is not governed by an evil demigod.
kjenks 05-29-07, 06:36 PM	You can still play metaregionals and adaptables, too. With 20 Core mods, you can play every other weekend with ease. Run a mod on the alternate weekends and you're good for the year.
CdrcJsn 05-29-07, 07:02 PM	Have you played Pale regionals before? Play the mods first and judge later. Pholtus as presented in Core mods or metaregionals is not Pholtus as presented in the Pale. Granted, there is still technically an inquisition going on (has been for the past two centuries), but most of the mods currently out deal with external threats to the pale rather than any internal issue of politics or religion (there are some, but you can generally tell from the blurbs). Play your character in a regional. You might be surprised. The past and present Triad have made a determined effort to allow people to play whatever characters they wish to. There is oppression of other religions (i.e. don't present your holy symbol in public), but it becomes the flavor of the region rather than an overwhelming restriction. Fair warning though, Matt, our current scenarios guy has been known to say that Heroes aren't heroic if they are never given a choice between the hard and good path, or the easy and evil path. Sometimes PCs are given just enough rope to hang themselves with. Who knows however, maybe after spending some time in the region, Pholtus might grow on you and your next character can be an ultraconservative lawful neutral Pholtan out to bring the inquisition to other lands. Nobody expects the Pholtan Inquisition! My own first character was a summoning cleric of Boccob and later Zagyg. For a time, he was the highest level PC cleric in the region. I never found issues with being able to play him in any regional. If you're looking for regular game days in the bay area, Endgame at oakland holds regular game days every monday (easily reachable by BART). Tuesday night gamedays are available in the south bay at GameKastle.
The_Jester 05-29-07, 07:04 PM	Let people you play with know you don't like the atmosphere and ask which regionals/metaregionals are Pholtus-lite. If you like being a GM offer to run the rest in return.
Lupo 05-29-07, 07:08 PM	So I'm most likely moving to San Francisco in the near future - but I hate Pholtus and the whole Theocracy of the Pale (in the game, not the players and organizers). What the heck should I do? I can still play cores but I'll run out of those really quickly . . . start a secret "reformatory sect", hey, come on, it isn't pholtus, but the stubborn lawful church over there :P as usual, to achieve this, pretend to be the strictest follower of the church and conspire with the renegades outside the pale :D and being a "radiant servant of pholtus" isn't to bad for a cleric. i think you can even play a druid, as long as you either declare pholtus as your focus of nature's power or follow nature itself. make some of your characters "foreigners" in the pale, "hey dude, i didn't knew it is forbidden to erect shrines to tritherion over here" ;) (ok, you always wanted to see the famous holiday resorts, wouldn't you???) apart from the divine casters i don't see the whole "one true church" being a big deal. apart of the limitation that you have to be in good standing with the church to gain access to their healing powers, of course :rolleyes: ciao martin m.
Britt 05-29-07, 07:57 PM	It is one of the effects of regions. At least that region is not governed by an evil demigod. No, just an evil god ;) Fanning the flames of Pholtus-hate since 591.
solbergb 05-29-07, 08:15 PM	So I'm most likely moving to San Francisco in the near future - but I hate Pholtus and the whole Theocracy of the Pale (in the game, not the players and organizers). What the heck should I do? I can still play cores but I'll run out of those really quickly . . . So join one of our fine resistance organizations and be a spy and try to undermine or change the society while rescuing the helpless and getting rich by beating up monsters. You may find the Thieves Guild (invitation only), the Natural Order, the Council of Faith or the Circle of White Light to your taste. There are also secular Brotherhood of Arms and I think some tribal organizations. Think of yourself the same way most people play a Paladin in the Bandit Kingdoms or an Elf in Ket. You can still adventure in a hostile region to your type of character - you just have different overall goals than perhaps even your other party members. As long as you can separate long term goals from short term mission, and can reconcile missions that might help the Pale to your own morality, you should be fine. Adventurers in the Pale are a motley and chaotic lot. They span all alignments and all races. While it is true that a Pholtan or two are often in the party, an awful lot happens when they aren't looking. (indeed, when my wife and I started alternate characters that weren't Pholtan, we were shocked at what the nice Lawful-appearing adventurers we used to travel with did when no Pholtans were watching...)
bitznarf 05-29-07, 08:20 PM	(indeed, when my wife and I started alternate characters that weren't Pholtan, we were shocked at what the nice Lawful-appearing adventurers we used to travel with did when no Pholtans were watching...) Heh, I was at Crossing Paths last year with my CN Rogue, some of the looks I got were funny as hell.
Nutation 05-29-07, 08:22 PM	So I'm most likely moving to San Francisco in the near future - but I hate Pholtus and the whole Theocracy of the Pale (in the game, not the players and organizers). What the heck should I do? I can still play cores but I'll run out of those really quickly . . . Start a new character. One of the side effects of moving is that you suddenly have a year-and-a-half of new regionals and metaregionals available, more than one character has TU for. No matter where you moved, it would be unlikely that your existing character fits in exactly. Design someone new who has a very different outlook (e.g., a fighter aspiring to the Prelatal Militia). You can then experience the region from two different points of view.
Howie23 05-29-07, 08:33 PM	Start a new character. One of the side effects of moving is that you suddenly have a year-and-a-half of new regionals and metaregionals available, more than one character has TU for. No matter where you moved, it would be unlikely that your existing character fits in exactly. Design someone new who has a very different outlook (e.g., a fighter aspiring to the Prelatal Army). You can then experience the region from two different points of view. One would think. However, last year saw a grand total of three NMR meta-regionals, and to add insult to injury, Jesse is already in NMR. :weep: On the plus side, he does get the backlog of excellent Pale mods, and the excellent Pale convention judges. All reputation at this end (haven't made it yet), but a reputation that I've heard without exception. Go with the flow, Jesse, you'll come up with ideas. It's Role-Playing, after all. You get to find out how Relpar responds to the Arcanist Guild. :D David
bitznarf 05-29-07, 08:36 PM	Prelatal Militia, since the army proper no longer accepts PCs Um.. how exactly would the army know if someone is a PC? I don't recall a Detect Player Character spell any more than I do a Detect Class; these are metagame ideas.
Jesse Heinig 05-29-07, 08:38 PM	Aww dang, and I wanted to go Sagacious Society, too! One would think. However, last year saw a grand total of three NMR meta-regionals, and to add insult to injury, Jesse is already in NMR. :weep: On the plus side, he does get the backlog of excellent Pale mods, and the excellent Pale convention judges. All reputation at this end (haven't made it yet), but a reputation that I've heard without exception. Go with the flow, Jesse, you'll come up with ideas. It's Role-Playing, after all. You get to find out how Relpar responds to the Arcanist Guild. :D David
Howie23 05-29-07, 08:47 PM	Aww dang, and I wanted to go Sagacious Society, too! You're moving. ObGnomeJoke It doesn't mean that Annoy-o-Gnome has to move. ;) David
Jesse Heinig 05-29-07, 09:22 PM	I'm kind of in the bind that I have a roster of: - A gnomish arcanist is the least offensive of my folder - A half-orc arcanist/paladin(!) of a Touv deity - A favored soul of a hero-god - An elf en route to Holy Liberator . . . so all of them have some problems with the Theocracy, many of them serious. I have absolutely no desire whatsoever to play "the other side of the fence." The only thing I can think of that would get by would be to make a generic human fighter with no convictions or characterization whatsoever. So join one of our fine resistance organizations and be a spy and try to undermine or change the society while rescuing the helpless and getting rich by beating up monsters. You may find the Thieves Guild (invitation only), the Natural Order, the Council of Faith or the Circle of White Light to your taste. There are also secular Brotherhood of Arms and I think some tribal organizations. Think of yourself the same way most people play a Paladin in the Bandit Kingdoms or an Elf in Ket. You can still adventure in a hostile region to your type of character - you just have different overall goals than perhaps even your other party members. As long as you can separate long term goals from short term mission, and can reconcile missions that might help the Pale to your own morality, you should be fine. Adventurers in the Pale are a motley and chaotic lot. They span all alignments and all races. While it is true that a Pholtan or two are often in the party, an awful lot happens when they aren't looking. (indeed, when my wife and I started alternate characters that weren't Pholtan, we were shocked at what the nice Lawful-appearing adventurers we used to travel with did when no Pholtans were watching...)
CdrcJsn 05-29-07, 11:51 PM	I'm kind of in the bind that I have a roster of: - A gnomish arcanist is the least offensive of my folder - A half-orc arcanist/paladin(!) of a Touv deity - A favored soul of a hero-god - An elf en route to Holy Liberator . . . so all of them have some problems with the Theocracy, many of them serious. I can see the Holy Liberator having issues, but why the rest? The crazy gnome would be crazy regardless of what region he's in. As long as he doesn't get caught for breaking any laws, he's fine. Same thing with the divine followers of other gods. The only limitation placed on them is that they cannot proselytize while in the Pale. Displaying their holy symbol would count for this, so they should probably hide their holy symbols while in cities. Other than that though, there should be no issues affecting play unless the player chooses to make it an issue that he hates pholtans for no rational reason other than he hates Pholtus. There are a few players like that out there. PS even the elf could fit in the Pale, as long as he limits his crusading against the foes of the Phostwood. The elves of the Phostwood are pretty much independent and are considered as an allied nation by the Pale rather than mere citizens. Despite their differences in alignment and religion, the elves of the Phost and the Theocracy have had a pretty amicable relationship and have cooperated in eliminating threats in the Phost.
copper_wyrmling 05-29-07, 11:57 PM	I'm kind of in the bind that I have a roster of: - A gnomish arcanist is the least offensive of my folder - A half-orc arcanist/paladin(!) of a Touv deity - A favored soul of a hero-god - An elf en route to Holy Liberator . . . so all of them have some problems with the Theocracy, many of them serious. I have absolutely no desire whatsoever to play "the other side of the fence." The only thing I can think of that would get by would be to make a generic human fighter with no convictions or characterization whatsoever. I would try playing and see how it goes - I think you're probably overestimating how restrictive their regionals are. I thought my sorcerer was going to have serious issues playing Bissel regionals, but she cast Evard's Black Tentacles (which is banned) at a battle interactive with all the Triad members present, and she didn't have any problems that won't be fixed by disguising herself next time she plays with a certain PC (member of a meta-org that focuses on hunting down those who use illegal magic). I've played with some Palish players online, and from what they've said, I'd love to play either my cleric of Joramy (goddess of arguments) or my Wild Mage in the Pale, I think I'd have a lot of fun.
King Kashue 05-30-07, 12:43 AM	Jesse, First of all, Cedric is right, it's not going to be as bad as you think. I play the freaking True Disciple of Zagyg, and he gets along well enough on his visits to the frigid, intolerant North :D More importantly, out of character, the Pale freaking rocks. Well written modules, a bevy of solid judges and players, a responsive and active triad. Except for that whole Pholtus thing, it's a wonderful place :D Slightly more seriously, Pholtus is not front and center of every regional mod, and heck, three of your four characters don't even have souls according to the Pholtans, so they're far less likely to get Hassled ;)
Redfist 05-30-07, 12:58 AM	My favorite mod of all time is a Pale mod (PAL6-02 - Tiger Tiger). :D
boolean 05-30-07, 01:19 AM	Um.. how exactly would the army know if someone is a PC? I don't recall a Detect Player Character spell any more than I do a Detect Class; these are metagame ideas. The PCs are the one who keep going AWOL. A regular army isn't much use if half the members are out of the country, doing something they call "adventuring".
_metz_ 05-30-07, 02:22 AM	Its just a different campaign setting that encourages even more roleplaying. I wouldn't mind the pale, i would struggle playing a pholtan cleric/paladin, but other that that would enjoy it...
kjenks 05-30-07, 09:42 AM	There are paladins in the Bandit Kingdoms. Sometimes it's fun to go against the grain.
Mommy was an Orc 05-30-07, 10:39 AM	As an example, though not in the Pale, I play a Baklunish Monk/Sorceress/Paladin of Al'Akbar of Ket descent in Keoland - people in Keoland distrust Baklunish, Sorcerers, Paladins - especially those of Al'Akbar. She adventured with a Necromancer Theurge of Wee Jas in Bissel. Who broadly kept telling everyone the benefits of Wee Jas. This is after a Necromancer almost destroyed Bissel. And Ket has been attacking Bissel. If you could imagine two people less likely to be tolerated in Bissel or Keoland, it would be those two. Not a problem. She's even a Hero of Avoreen in Bissel for having defeated evil shadow creatures. I've yet to even hear a in-character comment at the table about my unusual background - they're mostly players puzzled at what role I intend to play at the table(Monks generally don't do a lot and I've sacrificed a point of BAB, soon to be two for Sorcerer) Point being - unless you really cross the line and shove your non-Pholtan worshipping beliefs in an authority figure's face, you're probably fine.
solbergb 05-30-07, 12:40 PM	Here's what my wife and I play: Monk and Sacred Exorcist (conservative Pholtans, but LN and NG). Our first characters, and being rigid pholtans but not the kind of Pholtans that make your average NPC priest comfortable has been fun (the Monk is a half-orc/thespian who has a rather unique take on the teachings he's learned and the sacred exorcist is "soft on chaos" even though she takes a very hard line on fiends and TRIES to be lawful. Sadly she is surrounded by bad influences, such as....my next character....) Rhenee Arcanist (started chaotic, but got disgusted with behavior of chaotic outsiders and has drifted to NG. Pale patriot but athiest (ie, she believes all "gods" are just powerful outsiders, treats Pholtus like she'd treat any other heaed of state). Likes the Pale because it is a safe society, strong enough to stand up to Iuz. In the Arcanist Guild because they have very, very good lawyers when arcanists like her do flashy magic. Takes pride in doing visible magic that disturbs conservative Pholtans but not breaking any actual laws so they can't really do anything about it. She also does undercover work in the Bandit Kingdoms...well it was undercover until she loaned her hat of disguise to an iuzian "ringer" that she "freed from prison". Now she's on wanted posters... Two Phostwood Elves, father and daughter who operate in the Pale out of treaty obligations but don't really understand the society. Mostly they take out threats in the forests and Troll Fens, and are working both sides of the Tenh thing with the idea of doing whatever will make the grass start growing again there. The daughter is more militant and is a member of resistance organizations, the father is more laid back. Two Rakers dwarves, brother and sister, who go into the Pale because they have powerful enemies and fighting such will make them famous and rich! It's kind of worked out, in that they have working Gold Mines in the Rakers, but they're often fish-out-of-water there. Both are too self-centered to really notice any prejudice against them. A teenage druid focused on learning how to turn into a tiger who sometimes wanders out of Nyrond into the Pale. She considers it a cold and inhospitable place. Two chaotic gnomes, one of whom is a reluctant favored soul of Procan (a highly unpopular god in the Pale), the other who got arrested before she even played her first intro module by lying unsuccessfully to the arcane registration clerk, and escalating the situation into a color spray..."hey, he TOLD me to demonstrate that I wasn't a bard!". We tend to play them in urban modules. The minimission where we got to go undercover into a New Dawn camp and stage a prison break was the Best Adventure Ever, as we got to beat up Pholtans without any chance of getting in trouble! A Duchy Suel Noble and his Manservant, who are playing tourist while waiting for the political situation to stabilize in the Duchy. Most notable deed was letting a Tenha Flan terrorist go because "he was given a stern talking to and promised to only attack legitimate military targets next time, and stop endangering innocents". Everyone at that table turned out to be either not from the Pale or a resistance-type character...
Teiresias 05-30-07, 05:17 PM	Another one of those blasphemin' foreigners, thinks they can up and just move to our beloved Pale. Fools all of 'em I say! Who wouldn't love to come to a place where the law is followed, the government actually provides some services, and our little army knows how to fight. Those 'hat don't like things this way would have to be rabble- rousers. Take 'em and toss 'em all in a New Dawn Camp I say--them with their bad mouthin' Pholtus and the One True Path. We'll see how they act once they get out! As for you arcanes, think your so smart, ya better follow our laws. That's all I've got to say about it--ya may end up in the camps, or better yet, on the pyres. If you snivelers ain't got the backbone to follow the law, I suggest you find a way to stick it out in that fen Nyrond.
King Kashue 05-30-07, 06:15 PM	Point being - unless you really cross the line and shove your non-Pholtan worshipping beliefs in an authority figure's face, you're probably fine. There is a legitimate issue for non-Pholtan clerics however, since the display of non-Pholtan holy symbols is illegal, it makes it rather difficult to cast any spells in the presence of someone who'll turn rat on you...
King Kashue 05-30-07, 06:16 PM	Another one of those blasphemin' foreigners, thinks they can up and just move to our beloved Pale. Fools all of 'em I say! Who wouldn't love to come to a place where the law is followed, the government actually provides some services, and our little army knows how to fight. Those 'hat don't like things this way would have to be rabble- rousers. Take 'em and toss 'em all in a New Dawn Camp I say--them with their bad mouthin' Pholtus and the One True Path. We'll see how they act once they get out! As for you arcanes, think your so smart, ya better follow our laws. That's all I've got to say about it--ya may end up in the camps, or better yet, on the pyres. If you snivelers ain't got the backbone to follow the law, I suggest you find a way to stick it out in that fen Nyrond. Sounds like someone's compensating... Hrm...I wonder if that's it...All the truly intolerant Pholtans are just making up for being "lightly encumbered", if you catch my drift ;)
solbergb 05-30-07, 06:54 PM	There is a legitimate issue for non-Pholtan clerics however, since the display of non-Pholtan holy symbols is illegal, it makes it rather difficult to cast any spells in the presence of someone who'll turn rat on you... It is considerably less difficult than being, say, a normal fighter type in Ket, where even if the bad guys are using lethal force, you can't if the bad guys are citizens, on penalty of enslavement. Or being a cleric of anything but IUZ in the bandit kingdoms. Clerics are prepared casters, they can adjust their spell mix, and most don't make all that many changes - many spells don't require a divine focus, many NPC's aren't especially likely to turn you in, many encounters (and most longterm buffs) happen with no witnesses and the worst that happens is you get your 1gp wood holy symbol confiscated and get a fine even if you do choose to cast "prayer" in the middle of the marketplace. If there are NO consequences to disrespecting the head of state of the region (Pholtus) then how is adventuring in the Pale any different than doing so anywhere else. Waving your holy symbol is a form of prostlytization, and prostlytizing is the same as advocating treason in most other countries - you are saying the king's illegitimate brother should be king instead, essentially. It's a theocracy. Get over it. In exchange, what you get in the Pale that is superior to many other regions for PC's includes. 1. A system of law where most crimes against property or people an adventurer might do result in relatively light sentences in a religious camp where you are well treated, well fed and forced to listen to Pholtan dogma for a few weeks. 2. A system of law where if you actually didn't do the crime, the safest place you can be is in a courtroom. 3. No nobles of any kind. After visiting other regions, I can't begin to express how nice that is. 4. Relatively little corruption in the government or businesses. 5. A manpower shortage due to all the real threats facing the Pale, leaving plenty of room for adventurers to "fill in" in a variety of roles being helpful, getting paid etc without actually having to work for the government. Indeed, direct hire of adventurers by government officials is very much on the wane in the Pale. It's actively discouraged, except in times of true emergency, such as battle interactives. (The Church is worried about the influence of chaotic adventurers, and the authors are freed up to write adventures that don't always directly benefit the church, although they can if the PC's want it to...)
Teiresias 05-30-07, 06:57 PM	That from a guy calls hisself "King." Pot & kettle if you ask me.
King Kashue 05-30-07, 07:20 PM	In exchange, what you get in the Pale that is superior to many other regions for PC's includes. 1. A system of law where most crimes against property or people an adventurer might do result in relatively light sentences in a religious camp where you are well treated, well fed and forced to listen to Pholtan dogma for a few weeks. Internment camps... 2. A system of law where if you actually didn't do the crime, the safest place you can be is in a courtroom. Invasive magical divinations... 3. No nobles of any kind. After visiting other regions, I can't begin to express how nice that is. Solid point... 4. Relatively little corruption in the government or businesses. Heh...It's awfully convenient how "corruption" disappears when the government is also the moral authority defining "corruption", isn't it :D 5. A manpower shortage due to all the real threats facing the Pale Real threats...like "The threats faced by troops who've annexed portions of another country"...It's amazing how many threats an occupying force faces, isn't it ;)
King Kashue 05-30-07, 07:21 PM	That from a guy calls hisself "King." Pot & kettle if you ask me. The word you're looking for there is "himself"... Guess grammar and spelling aren't among things they teach you in a New Dawn camp, eh? ;)
Teiresias 05-30-07, 07:36 PM	For a D&D guy, you seem to be having a great deal of difficulty with a concept called "roleplay." :P Thanks very much for the grammar lesson. I'll be sure to internalize it, and do better next time. :rolleyes:
King Kashue 05-30-07, 07:40 PM	For a D&D guy, you seem to be having a great deal of difficulty with a concept called "roleplay." :P Or maybe you are... Though I can understand why you Pholtans have such trouble seeing things for what they are...All that blinding light must cause problems, and dichromatic vision is such a hindrance upon visual acuity...
solbergb 05-30-07, 07:50 PM	Internment camps... which are country-clubs compared to the prisons, slavery, mutilation and death imposed by every other region for crimes versus property or people. We're also the only region I've seen that tries to rehabilitate criminals rather than hang, mutilate, enslave or imprison them. But I might be wrong. Many of our most famous adventurers are New Dawn graduates....but not all graduates are Pholtan. Invasive magical divinations... which accurately establish if you are guilty or innocent. this is bad how? Heh...It's awfully convenient how "corruption" disappears when the government is also the moral authority defining "corruption", isn't it :D The funny thing is that it's actually because Pholtus writes the laws, not the LN followers, and it is enforce with those intrusive divination magics. There are a startling number of things in the laws that protect the individual if he's actually innocent, including "if he was right, he was inspired by Pholtus" logic that allows a PC to attack first, and not be prosecuted if the guy really WAS an iuzian spy or whatever. Of course, if you were wrong, you'll be charged with assault and possibly negligent or chaotic murder depending on what you did.... Most of why there is very little corruption is that priests who go too far in the direction of chaos or evil lose their spells and start radiating other alignments....and most responsible positions are held by priests or those watched by priests... Real threats...like "The threats faced by troops who've annexed portions of another country"...It's amazing how many threats an occupying force faces, isn't it ;) No, real threats like: Iuz, who was knocking on our border after marching through Tenh before the Ether Threat, brought down by idiot Tenha on themselves. If their chaos is going to spill over our borders, yeah, we'll defend ourselves and also restore the homeland of all the refugees that we fed, hosed, educated, trained and protected during those years. As recently as three days ago, real time, we were STILL battling fallout from his occupation of Tenh. (stupid demons and gates to the abyss...well it's shut now and a lot of demons died the true death) Winterwind and the Troll King - who had it in for us because our Theocrat killed his evil dragon mommy. I'm sorry that our fearless leader was such an effective adventurer in his youth :) The Great Green in the Gamboge A rather large number of orcs and humanoids in the rakers that keep bashing themselves against our defenses from time to time. Two incursions from the Far Realms, one that wasn't our fault, the other because some adventurers gave the Florocon to the Phoswood Elves instead of locking it up safely in the Library of Antigua. Keeping down the ancient evil in the Phostwood -and other Ur-Flan relics that still plague the land. Keeping the Great Opressor of the South (Nyrond) from invading us again (although they've self-destructed so thoroughly in recent years we've had little to do in that arena) We still get a few stoneholder spies and even raids from time to time, although the real backbone of their military force was broken at Calbut in previous years. And of course occasional terrorist actions against the Pale by chaotic and evil forces jealous of our success as a society :) Including some misguided Tenha Flan, who would rather live in refugee camps in the Phostwood than join either the Pale or Redspan, both of which are having some success restoring the Stonelands. You also get the occasional criminal dumb enough to try to operate in the Pale, but those rarely last long.
Jesse Heinig 05-30-07, 08:30 PM	Right then, keeping my characters in the Nyrond region it is.
King Kashue 05-30-07, 09:39 PM	which are country-clubs compared to the prisons, slavery, mutilation and death imposed by every other region for crimes versus property or people. We're also the only region I've seen that tries to rehabilitate criminals rather than hang, mutilate, enslave or imprison them. But I might be wrong. Many of our most famous adventurers are New Dawn graduates....but not all graduates are Pholtan. Maybe if you didn't have so many restrictive and unreasoned laws, you wouldn't have the need for so much "re-education"... Maybe if you had enough education in general, you wouldn't be quite so afraid of what you don't understand... which accurately establish if you are guilty or innocent. this is bad how? Try casting a spell on me against my will...I'm sure I can provide a "persuasive explanation" as to why it's an issue... The funny thing is that it's actually because Pholtus writes the laws He writes them himself? Is he right or left handed? Does he use an uncial or miniscule script...Do you get to keep the quills as holy relics, or does he take them with him? :D No, real threats like: Iuz Yes, you all are the bulwark against Old Wicked... And by the bones, don't say his name out loud...:rolleyes: The Great Green in the Gamboge And Sassy too, I'm sure you bore the brunt of her children's mischief... Two incursions from the Far Realms, one that wasn't our fault, the other because some adventurers gave the Florocon to the Phoswood Elves instead of locking it up safely in the Library of Antigua. Tell me, is anything your fault? Or is lack of responsibility merely a side effect of a claim of a misguided claim of infallibility? Keeping down the ancient evil in the Phostwood -and other Ur-Flan relics that still plague the land. Ah yes, the Ur-Flan...I'm sure you're best to deal with that...I mean, if there's anyone who's demonstrated a thorough and nuanced understanding of the ways of magic, it's the Pale :D Keeping the Great Opressor of the South (Nyrond) from invading us again (although they've self-destructed so thoroughly in recent years we've had little to do in that arena) After 200 years of standing betwixt you and Rauxes, I'd imagine you'd have a better opinion of them...Ah well, we've already establish that "book learning" such as history isn't a strong suit in the purple north...:D Including some misguided Tenha Flan, who would rather live in refugee camps in the Phostwood than join either the Pale or Redspan, both of which are having some success restoring the Stonelands. Yes...You Pholtans do seem to take issue when individuals exercise their free will... Funny that...;)
clannagh 05-30-07, 09:59 PM	I'm kind of in the bind that I have a roster of: - A gnomish arcanist is the least offensive of my folder - A half-orc arcanist/paladin(!) of a Touv deity - A favored soul of a hero-god - An elf en route to Holy Liberator . . . so all of them have some problems with the Theocracy, many of them serious. I have absolutely no desire whatsoever to play "the other side of the fence." The only thing I can think of that would get by would be to make a generic human fighter with no convictions or characterization whatsoever. Or a spymaster whose deep cover is a cleric or paladin of Pholtus :)
copper_wyrmling 05-30-07, 11:35 PM	which are country-clubs compared to the prisons, slavery, mutilation and death imposed by every other region for crimes versus property or people. We're also the only region I've seen that tries to rehabilitate criminals rather than hang, mutilate, enslave or imprison them. But I might be wrong. Perrenland just imposes fines (kopprijs / blood-price) - or some other means of making restitution if you don't have the money. There are a couple of exceptions, crimes where the penalty is "death, and you're not coming back", but they're pretty rare. Now Bissel... I'm pretty sure Azrien (my Wild Mage) would be safer in the Pale than in Bissel, if the regional laws were enforced. On the other hand, I'm not at all sure that the Pale wouldn't consider my Neutral Good Sacred Exorcist guilty of consorting with fiends: she has freed a demon queen from captivity and made deals with mariliths and hezrou... which accurately establish if you are guilty or innocent. this is bad how? It does rely entirely on the integrity of the cleric casting the divination spell, unless they regularly run cross-checks. Most of why there is very little corruption is that priests who go too far in the direction of chaos or evil lose their spells and start radiating other alignments....and most responsible positions are held by priests or those watched by priests... So not like the "Pholtan priest" in the Witch Hunt backstory who managed to participate in the torture-murder of two innocents without any consequences... how far does a cleric have to go in violating the code of conduct before he loses spells? (Yes, I realize that was a Core and probably written without the input of the Pale Triad, but the point remains that Pholtus is a fairly aloof god and may not keep that close an eye on his followers... deific oversight seems a poor basis on which to avoid corruption.)
jhorred 05-31-07, 01:02 AM	So not like the "Pholtan priest" in the Witch Hunt backstory who managed to participate in the torture-murder of two innocents without any consequences... how far does a cleric have to go in violating the code of conduct before he loses spells? (Yes, I realize that was a Core and probably written without the input of the Pale Triad, but the point remains that Pholtus is a fairly aloof god and may not keep that close an eye on his followers... deific oversight seems a poor basis on which to avoid corruption.) To reiterate, Pholtans portrayed in the Core mods are not the same Pholtans that inhabit the Pale. (IMHO, many of the Pholtans portrayed outside Pale regionals are more LE than anything.) When I started playing LG, I was a little worried about playing in the Theocracy but the Pale has turned out to be a good place to play. You truly can play about anything you want to play as long as it's LG legal. Of course you have to be a little more circumspect when you play certain classes, etc, but rarely do the restrictions truly effect your characters ability to adventure as he would in any other region. I'll echo the recommendation and urge you to play a few Pale mods before you judge the book by it's cover. Not everyone in the Pale is a Pholtan.. Heck I just made a cleric of Wee Jas...
Lupo 05-31-07, 06:59 AM	Or a spymaster whose deep cover is a cleric or paladin of Pholtus :) he he :P, and the biggest fun, even if the church of the pale has been taken over long ago by a scheming demon godling or devil or other powerful being with a really wicked sense of humor (a theory that most of my characters who care at all hold after several "interactions" with pholtians), they will never be able to find out by themselves and as they don't trust outsiders hardly by other means :P prerequisite for church inquisitor: membership in a lawful GOOD church :D ciao martin m. ps: nyrondian web roster shows a total of four church inquisitors of pholtus for the pale, only two of them seem to be active. but i am still wondering for what church they are working ;)
Mommy was an Orc 05-31-07, 08:26 AM	To reiterate, Pholtans portrayed in the Core mods are not the same Pholtans that inhabit the Pale. (IMHO, many of the Pholtans portrayed outside Pale regionals are more LE than anything.) Pholtus is a legal deity for PCs? I thought PCs weren't allowed to worship LE deities? ;)
solbergb 05-31-07, 12:11 PM	It does rely entirely on the integrity of the cleric casting the divination spell, unless they regularly run cross-checks. So not like the "Pholtan priest" in the Witch Hunt backstory who managed to participate in the torture-murder of two innocents without any consequences... how far does a cleric have to go in violating the code of conduct before he loses spells? (Yes, I realize that was a Core and probably written without the input of the Pale Triad, but the point remains that Pholtus is a fairly aloof god and may not keep that close an eye on his followers... deific oversight seems a poor basis on which to avoid corruption.) 1. They do cross-checks. They also check magical auras, looking for magic that might misdirect the divination and in some cases to verify that the divination took hold. They also check mundane evidence against that gained via divinations, because people can honestly believe inaccurate information. I'm not kidding when I said the safest place to be in the Flaness is a Pale courtroom when you are innocent. Weirdly, this is true in Dimre too. Pholtans are Pholtans, even if each sees the other as heretic. However - resisting divinations in court is considered evidence of guilt, and you're warned of that. 2. Witch Hunt is a good example of what happens when people with inadequate divination magic and infrastructure attempt to figure out problems involving fiends. Pretty much everyone from the Pale who played this mod said "this couldn't happen in Wintershiven". And they'd be right. And that was during the time when the Pale was having factional struggles for who would succeed the theocrat, probably the worst time for "corruption". The funny thing about witch hunt is the "bad NPC's that were burning innocents" honestly thought they were doing the right thing. They just were incapable of exposing the truth with the resources they had. Given that there was a powerful undead who could take the form of trusted people and ghosts with unusual powers versus something like a 3rd level cleric and a 3rd level adept and a constable with a couple ranks in investigatino skills, this isn't too surprising. 3. It isn't just the oversight. It's the whole structure of the society and laws that are in fact better than most of the people who enforce the laws. A good lawyer in the Pale is helpful, because the laws actually have protections that overzealous prosecutors may tend to 'overlook'
solbergb 05-31-07, 12:13 PM	To reiterate, Pholtans portrayed in the Core mods are not the same Pholtans that inhabit the Pale. (IMHO, many of the Pholtans portrayed outside Pale regionals are more LE than anything.) Yeah. We figure they were deported from the Pale for a reason. They're all heretics. Giving Pholtans a bad name. It was very satisfying to beat them down and give them instruction in the One True Path for my Pholtan monk (usually giving instruction WHILE beating them down....)
King Kashue 05-31-07, 12:51 PM	The funny thing about witch hunt is the "bad NPC's that were burning innocents" honestly thought they were doing the right thing. How many bricks on the road to hell have the intentions of misguided Pholtans lain?
Eric Anondson 05-31-07, 02:10 PM	Hey, I love that the Pale has a well deserved reputation for tossing heretics on the pyre. It gives us in the Shield Lands great material for what could happen if the Pholtans of the County of Bright Sentry become too ascendant spreading their faith in the face of the state religion of Heironeous. :) It is remarkable how many PCs are as equally suspicious of Pholtans as they are of Iuzians! I love it! :heehee
Timlagor 05-31-07, 03:54 PM	Looks like the Heironeans need a grammar lesson too :P
King Kashue 05-31-07, 04:22 PM	Looks like the Heironeans need a grammar lesson too :P You have no idea how poor the educational standards are outside of Onnwal...
kenobi65 05-31-07, 06:00 PM	Looks like the Heironeans need a grammar lesson too :P It's because all Heironeans wind up using Int for a dump stat. ;)
Samwise 05-31-07, 10:23 PM	Cross-checks just means you have to bribe two clerics casting detect lie instead of just one. It also requires that the authorities care about the truth being revealed. Politics is still politics, and if the church hierarchy pre-emptively determines you are a heretic, spells won't really matter. Add in issues of perception of truth versus the truth itself, and magic can become as bigger impediment to justice than an aid. That is why Zagig made it illegal to use magic to determine evidence in the city of Greyhawk.
solbergb 06-01-07, 12:13 PM	The more incorruptable people you have the less chance the institution becomes corrupt. I'm also trying to imagine trying to bribe a Pale official. There might be some bribable out there - but most aren't. What "corruption" exists in the church tends to be differences in Pholtan doctrine, but none really include the possibility of taking bribes. A good lawyer might be able to split hairs on the definition of consorting with fiends, especially lawful fiends, for example, but the consequences of failure are quite high. Somebody good at bluff might convince a Pale official that he was wrong about the law, but he's really unlikely to get him to go against the law as he understands it. An early theme in the Pale had the church militant harassing minorities. If you faced them down and asked what laws were broken, they slunk off muttering. They did behave badly enough in that period that IMPERSONATORS of the church militant did some pretty nasty things in the rural regions and people bought it. The Pale has had some bad apples, but they tend to get exposed. In general the Pale officials are honest and fair - within their laws. Any non-religious crime is generally treated as an opportunity to reform the criminal and make him a productive member of society. Religious crimes tend to be the kind interpreted more narrowly. Of course, what is a religious crime in the Pale would be treason anywhere else, so it isn't all that surprising the penalties are harsh. You ARE warned as you enter. If you choose to disregard the behavior required of you, you've chosen the consequences. (it isn't illegal to worshop other "gods". It's just illegal to prostlytize, and even then, the usual penalty is to confiscate, fine and deport. Only repeated offenses will lead to burning and ash-scattering)
LeeShort 06-01-07, 03:11 PM	1. They do cross-checks. They also check magical auras, looking for magic that might misdirect the divination and in some cases to verify that the divination took hold. They also check mundane evidence against that gained via divinations, because people can honestly believe inaccurate information. I'm not kidding when I said the safest place to be in the Flaness is a Pale courtroom when you are innocent. Weirdly, this is true in Dimre too. Pholtans are Pholtans, even if each sees the other as heretic. However - resisting divinations in court is considered evidence of guilt, and you're warned of that. I wonder about the source of such plentiful divination spells. They must be up to their ears in mid-level clerics.
Eric Anondson 06-01-07, 03:23 PM	I wonder about the source of such plentiful divination spells. They must be up to their ears in mid-level clerics.Well it is a theocracy with no nobility. Also, I think it was divination (the school) not divination (the spell). :)
Timlagor 06-01-07, 05:00 PM	Calling public display of a symbol "proseletysing" is rather extreme and unreasonable. No other nation (afaik) has a law that you can't display a flag (let alone a small symbol) of another nation.
pedr 06-01-07, 05:26 PM	Although the United Kingdom does, I believe, have a rule saying that you can't fly a flag of another nation without planning permission. I'll go check.
solbergb 06-01-07, 06:40 PM	Calling public display of a symbol "proseletysing" is rather extreme and unreasonable. No other nation (afaik) has a law that you can't display a flag (let alone a small symbol) of another nation. Try waving your holy symbol of Cuthbert around in the Bandit Kingdoms and tell me how it went :) For that matter, carry a banner of Prince Sewart in Nyrond and see how you'll be received. Confiscation and a fine really isn't that big a deal. We have tons and tons of non-pholtan clerics adventuring in the Pale that somehow cope. As for the plentiful divinations....yeah, when you have a significant temple to a god who gives knowledge domain (detect thoughts is quite helpful, much moreso than zone of truth) in every population center, and there are very few non-State clerics (ie, no divine casters wasted on Zazyg or similarly unhelpful types), when your police force is made up of fighter/clerics, there really are quite a few divination spells floating around to be used each day. This is also a society where every single arcane caster is registered, and where many of them join the Arcanist guild to get legal protection or share resources. This also means a significant pool of arcane divinations are on tap should the church require it. It would in fact be completely unrealistic to expect them NOT to use these resources. Now in the rural areas and on the borders (where in fact the majority of the Pale adentures take place) this infrastructure is lacking. The local parish priest doesn't generally try to do a "witch hunt" - he calls in the church inquisitors who have the resources (divine and mundane) to do a proper investigation. In the flan communities the local priest might be out of the loop, or might be a "circuit" priest, ie only around a bit of the time. In either case the locals might prefer adventurers give it a shot first, rather than face the uncomfortable and intrusive questioning and divinations of the Inquisition. This is especially true of the faithful sorts if a Pholtan is present in the party, and especially true of the less faithful or "old faith" types if a Pholtan does not seem to be present. But in the Pale, there isn't any need to use thumbscrews and racks to get answers. It's more that all the little things that are embarrassing etc might come out. Everybody has some things in life they'd rather weren't exposed to light of day. It's also likely that if they discover unrelated crimes in the process of ferreting out the true evil, they don't take the modern homicide cop line of "I don't care about your drug offenses, I'm doing a murder investigation here". I've only seen the Inquisition called in about twice in the Pale, and both times it was merited. Generally most communities police themselves without needing that hammer. But the hammer is there. In the Rakers, Gamboge, the Stonelands, the Troll fens and the Phostwood you can do whatever you want unless there's a Pholtan in the party to rat on you, and even then they're usually pretty strict about not trying to enforce Pale laws outside of official Pale borders.
solbergb 06-01-07, 06:51 PM	yeah, divination "the school" Divinations and communes are relatively rare, as they cost money and xp. The bread and butter spells are detect magic, detect chaos (and evil/good/law as crude confirmation that a a priest follows the god he says he does, that a paladin really is a paladin even if of a pagan god, etc), detect thoughts, zone of truth, omen of peril and augury. You really can do quite a lot with those spells, applied carefully, and there are many, many potential casters in the Pale. While many can be fooled, most of the techniques of fooling leave magic auras visible. Most criminals don't think to back things up with Nystul's aura and when dealing with obvious spellcasters an "observation period" is sometimes enforced for 24 hours, letting most spells wear off that would block the simple divinations. (with warnings that spellcasting will be considered an attempt to escape and evidence of guilt, etc). In general they don't assume a prisoner is a flight risk, because they tell the prisoner that they'll be assumed guilty of all charges if they flee and given maximum penalties. Most choose to stay for the trial, those that don't get harsher treatment if caught (eg, a spellcaster who teleported away might be gagged next time and carefully watched during feeding periods). Plus escape is a crime all by itself.... Given that most criminals consider Pale punishments something they can do while standing on their head, going to trial there is safer than in most other countries and much safer than trying to escape. The main exception would be things like consorting with fiends or premeditated murder, which carry death penalties if convicted. The Pale distinguishes between crimes that scatter your ashes vs ones where your family can recover the body for a later raise.
King Kashue 06-01-07, 08:34 PM	Also, Pholtans have great difficulty with brevity...
solbergb 06-01-07, 08:41 PM	Yeah, that's true enough :) After grain, paper is probably a major import, seeing as we can't log the Phost for treaty reasons and logging the Gamboge is a bit more trouble than it is worth. We do have a lot of sheep for the fancy vellum scroll stuff, but given the amount of record-keeping the Pale does, they must import something. Maybe I should write a minimission around that...
King Kashue 06-01-07, 09:38 PM	Yeah, that's true enough :) After grain, paper is probably a major import, seeing as we can't log the Phost for treaty reasons and logging the Gamboge is a bit more trouble than it is worth. We do have a lot of sheep for the fancy vellum scroll stuff, but given the amount of record-keeping the Pale does, they must import something. Maybe I should write a minimission around that... Imports? Grain? Sheep? What exactly do you think 'brevity' means? :D And, just fyi, there are no sheep used in vellum production...Again, that poor Palish educational system showing through ;)
Timlagor 06-01-07, 10:13 PM	Try waving your holy symbol of Cuthbert around in the Bandit Kingdoms and tell me how it went :) For that matter, carry a banner of Prince Sewart in Nyrond and see how you'll be received. But that's comparable to not allowing the holy symbols of specific gods (eg Nerull or Iuz) to be shown -and completely fails to address the fact that using a holy symbol to cast a spell simply isn't proseletysing (which still wouldn't be akin to Treason since persuading to worship of another god does not necessarily mean that they want to change their head of state -who happens ot be a different God ..and need not be exclusive either). The penalty is irrelevant: it's the arbitrary "definition" that makes Pholtans look unreasonable/ridiculous.
solbergb 06-01-07, 10:30 PM	Imports? Grain? Sheep? What exactly do you think 'brevity' means? :D And, just fyi, there are no sheep used in vellum production...Again, that poor Palish educational system showing through ;) vellum, parchment. One of them involves flaying a sheep. *shrug*
solbergb 06-01-07, 10:38 PM	But that's comparable to not allowing the holy symbols of specific gods (eg Nerull or Iuz) to be shown It's all the same to the Pale. You're either Pholtan or Not Pholtan. At least with human gods. Soulless nonhumans following their own spirits doesn't cause any issues :) Look - the rules are odd, but they make sense to Pholtans and they're internally consistent with their religious philosophy. It's their society, they get to make the rules. Actually the fact that they don't treat an Procan follower any worse than, say, a Zilchan is to them a sign they're bending over backwards to being "Fair" and "evenhanded" to the various pagan religions, even though Procan is much more offensive to Pholtan sensibilities than Zilchus. It isn't any stupider than how elves are treated in Ket, how Suel (and non-suel) humans are treated in the Duchy, or the arbitrary spellcasting rules in the Sheldomar valley enforced by Silent Ones, or the bizzare dragon disciple "extra encounters" in Highfolk. Actually, as avoiding the penalties merely involves concealing your actions from ordinary people with ordinary spot/listen checks, the Pale is considerably less restricting than any of those regions to many characters who wish to buck the tide. (concealing race is moderately difficult. In Highfolk dragon disciples are auto-spotted and the Silent Ones have a reputation for off-camera muggings but I also hear disguise helps)
King Kashue 06-01-07, 10:45 PM	vellum, parchment. One of them involves flaying a sheep. *shrug* Parchment is any writing material made from animal skins. Vellum is specifically made from a calf. :D And I'm still wondering what brevity has to do with grain imports ;)
GreatSiron 06-02-07, 01:37 AM	It isn't any stupider than...arbitrary spellcasting rules in the Sheldomar valley enforced by Silent Ones... Silent Ones have a reputation for off-camera muggings but I also hear disguise helps) Not in the Yeomanry they don't. Bad Silent Ones, stay in Keoland!
magebeast 06-02-07, 06:39 PM	But that's comparable to not allowing the holy symbols of specific gods (eg Nerull or Iuz) to be shown -and completely fails to address the fact that using a holy symbol to cast a spell simply isn't proseletysing (which still wouldn't be akin to Treason since persuading to worship of another god does not necessarily mean that they want to change their head of state -who happens ot be a different God ..and need not be exclusive either). The penalty is irrelevant: it's the arbitrary "definition" that makes Pholtans look unreasonable/ridiculous. Er, no. Wearing the Holy Symbol of pretty much any god BUT Iuz can earn you a beat down in the Bandit Kingdoms.
King Kashue 06-02-07, 09:46 PM	Er, no. Wearing the Holy Symbol of pretty much any god BUT Iuz can earn you a beat down in the Bandit Kingdoms. Yes...and that's definitely the model of governance that the Pale should be looking to emulate...The Bandit Kingdoms :D
Timlagor 06-02-07, 10:43 PM	It isn't any stupider than how elves are treated in Ket, how Suel (and non-suel) humans are treated in the Duchy, or the arbitrary spellcasting rules in the Sheldomar valley enforced by Silent Ones, or the bizzare dragon disciple "extra encounters" in Highfolk. Actually, as avoiding the penalties merely involves concealing your actions from ordinary people with ordinary spot/listen checks, the Pale is considerably less restricting than any of those regions to many characters who wish to buck the tide. (concealing race is moderately difficult. In Highfolk dragon disciples are auto-spotted and the Silent Ones have a reputation for off-camera muggings but I also hear disguise helps) I don't recall defending any of those or in any way implying that they were logical or reasonable.
Samwise 06-03-07, 12:29 AM	It isn't any stupider than . . . the arbitrary spellcasting rules in the Sheldomar valley enforced by Silent Ones, . . . and the Silent Ones have a reputation for off-camera muggings but I also hear disguise helps) They aren't arbitrary. Just because PCs don't realize they have items that can be used to [CLASSIFIED] doesn't mean the rules about them are arbitrary. It just means it is too dangerous for PCs to know them. And no, they don't engage in gratuitous muggings. Some things are handled more off camera (they really do have 20th level members, so it would easily get out of hand trying to have encounters written up with them), but it's not like they are the Darkwatch or anything. :cool: (I'm also the Silent Ones POC. :P )