| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Heron12-02-04, 04:05 AM | Hi guys, Quick question regarding a scenario and playing it more than once. I did take a look through the site and FAQ but I couldn't see this anywhere. Hope you can help. If I want to play a scenario, let's say Mad God's Key, with friends and with no connection to Living Greyhawk, but later I want to play it as a part of the Living Greyhawk campaign in an official capacity (different character and all), is there a problem with this? I realise there might be some problems, but if roleplaying, there's the issue of player versus character knowledge, right? I mean, personally, I've played several scenarios several times, each with different outcomes. I do understand that not everyone is as honest, but I wanted a "legal" viewpoint, please. Many thanks! -h- |
| SteveMND12-02-04, 07:23 AM | You, as a player, may only play any scenario once, regardless. |
| Heron12-02-04, 07:42 AM | Thanks for that. Could you point me in the direction of that rule on the web, please? I don't doubt you in the slightest, but I need to quote it. Very grateful, thanks. |
| smerwin2912-02-04, 07:58 AM | I don't think you are going to find a written rule that says, "You can only play an LG module once." The unwritten rule is common sense. Once you play a module, you know what happens in the module, regardless of what the outcome might be. LG mods are linear enough that it's not like a completely different play experience each time--you are still facing the same situations and enemies. The only other "legal" barrier to playing the same mod more than once is this: when it is reported to the RPGA, your RPGA number is input into the database as playing that module. If you play it again with a different character, the table would be invalidated when the judge attempted to put in your RPGA number again. Thus it is illegal for a player to play an RPGA module more than once. Regards, Shawn |
| Heron12-02-04, 09:21 AM | I don't think you are going to find a written rule that says, "You can only play an LG module once." The unwritten rule is common sense. Once you play a module, you know what happens in the module, regardless of what the outcome might be. LG mods are linear enough that it's not like a completely different play experience each time--you are still facing the same situations and enemies. I understand that totally, and would support it. Outside of the LG, I hold that it's possible to play - and enjoy - the same scenario many times and have in fact done so. But if there IS a written rule regarding it, I would like to see it. The only other "legal" barrier to playing the same mod more than once is this: when it is reported to the RPGA, your RPGA number is input into the database as playing that module. If you play it again with a different character, the table would be invalidated when the judge attempted to put in your RPGA number again. Thus it is illegal for a player to play an RPGA module more than once. That's not a problem in this particular circumstance, as I said. The player in question is looking to play a LG module at home with friends and THEN in a LG session. That being the case, the RPGA number shouldn't come into it in the first circumstance, should it? Thanks for your help, much appreciated. |
| Sieylianna12-02-04, 10:37 AM | From the RPGA General Rules: Players may not play the same adventure multiple times, even with different characters. The general rules can be found at: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=rpga/hq/genrulestext Ed |
| Heron12-02-04, 11:10 AM | Thanks for finding that, much appreciated. I'm honestly not trying to troll or be cantankerous, but you could interpret that as "You can't play the same adventure multiple times PERIOD" or you could even treat it as "You can play the adventure as many times as you like, but only ONCE under RPGA conditions". After all, who is to possibly know you have played it before, if you've played it at home without an RPGA GM? I realise honesty has a part to play here, but still, the rule looks ambiguous to me. |
| kenobi6512-02-04, 11:54 AM | Technically, you're right, Heron...though you should realize that "Mad God's Key" is, in a lot of ways, a significant outlier within the RPGA universe. There are very, very few modules that are both (a) generally released for home play (such as via Dungeon Magazine) and (b) playable within an RPGA campaign. The RPGA rule really is covering people trying to play RPGA modules at RPGA events more than once. Still, I'd highly recommend hewing to the spirit of the rule when it comes to "Mad God's Key," even if, in theory, you could get away with it. If you feel you *must* play this module both as a Living Greyhawk adventure, and with your home group, at least play it as an LG first. |
| Heron12-02-04, 11:58 AM | Thanks for the reply. You're right, of course, and I'll pass that on. Just as a sideline, this is definitely for someone else and not "A Friend" (nudge nudge wink wink), meaning me :). I stick to the letter of the RPGA personally, but I can see how it's open to interpretation. Cheers! |
| smerwin2912-02-04, 12:09 PM | Outside of LG it may be possible to play a module multiple times and enjoy it. But this is an LG forum. LG mods are, by their nature, quite linear. While I understand that you can have a different experience playing the same module with a different character, you are at a distinct advantage if you play a module multiple times. You know the answer to the riddle, you know who the killer is, you know where the traps are, you know what and where the bad guy is, and you know the consequences of your choices. And yes, you are correct in saying that the RPGA is never going to know if you "cheat." They are never going to know if you simple download the ARs for the modules and fill them out with full rewards without ever playing the module. If you are simply worried about legal wording, the RPGA General Rules also say that all events running RPGA scenarios must be sanctioned RPGA events (convention, game day, or home play), which implies that using RPGA scenarios for play outside of RPGA events breaks those rules. Additionally, you need to sanction an event in order to legally obtain the scenarios. This is largely ignored, of course, and lots of people use RPGA scenarios in their home campaigns outside of RPGA sanctioning. But legally, you should not be running scenarios outside of valid RPGA santioned events, meaning that you couldn't play them twice. As I said before, if you are looking for a rule that says, "You cannot play an RPGA module outside of RPGA play and thereafter play it legally as an RPGA event." That doesn't mean the RPGA would condone it. Regards, Shawn |
| Heron12-02-04, 02:36 PM | Thanks for the reply. I couldn't tell from your tone or the comment about "This is an LG forum" if you were being terse, but please don't get the wrong idea: I've no intention of breaking the rules and I wouldn't want anyone else to. I was simply pushing to see exactly what ruling I could determine would apply for the situation, which you chaps have illustrated, and for which I am most grateful. Hell, it took me long enough to get my RPGA Herald GM status; I wouldn't throw that away. You've all been most helpful, cheers. |
| smerwin2912-02-04, 02:53 PM | Thanks for the reply. I couldn't tell from your tone or the comment about "This is an LG forum" if you were being terse, but please don't get the wrong idea: I've no intention of breaking the rules and I wouldn't want anyone else to. Just trying to get to the heart of your question and get it answered as succinctly as possible. :-) Shawn |
| King Kashue12-03-04, 02:40 AM | As I said before, if you are looking for a rule that says, "You cannot play an RPGA module outside of RPGA play and thereafter play it legally as an RPGA event." That doesn't mean the RPGA would condone it. Regards, Shawn Well, you can find a the major fraud rule which cites as an example "a player deliberately plays in an adventure they have previously been a GM for..." Not too hard to see the correlation between GMing an adventure previously, and playing an adventure previously (or reading the module before hand, etc.)... |
| SteveMND12-03-04, 10:18 AM | "But if there IS a written rule regarding it, I would like to see it." If your "friend" does not see the inherent wrongness of playing a module when you already know all the right things to do and all the wrong things to avoid and all the various things to do to get the maximum benefit out of it for your character, why do you think the fact that a piece of paper says not to do so would make him re-examine his questionable ethics? |
| Heron12-03-04, 10:47 AM | If your "friend" does not see the inherent wrongness of playing a module when you already know all the right things to do and all the wrong things to avoid and all the various things to do to get the maximum benefit out of it for your character, why do you think the fact that a piece of paper says not to do so would make him re-examine his questionable ethics? Why on earth is playing the same module or scenario more than once wrong? Who says anyone would necessarily do things for the maximum benefit of their character? Did everyone just suddenly forget how to roleplay? The point I am trying to make is that this guy wants to play the adventure for fun with some friends, but is going to an RPGA event next year where it is being run and where he intends to play it officially. If there was a rule which said "you can't play a scenario for fun and then play it officially" then I think he, and I, would feel better about it and know where he stood, is the point I am trying to get across. If however there is no such rule, and it is ONLY wrong (in the legal sense) to play the scenario twice under RPGA sanction, then that's fine and this guy can go play it with his friends. And please don't insinuate it's me and not a third party, I find that quite offensive. I've been gaming for over 25 years and dislike the idea of cheating, hence the point of this original post. If you weren't insinuating that, then you have my apologies. |
| kenobi6512-03-04, 11:03 AM | Why on earth is playing the same module or scenario more than once wrong? Who says anyone would necessarily do things for the maximum benefit of their character? Did everyone just suddenly forget how to roleplay? You and your friend may have the noblest of intentions, but you need to realize that the RPGA rules have had to be set up this way because there's enough people out there who *will* cheat, in any way possible, if they think they can get away with it. Those of us who've been playing in the RPGA for a while have heard plenty of stories of: - Players who order modules and never really play them, just filling out the Adventure Records, giving their characters the XP and gold - Players who get briefed by other players on what to do (and not to do) in a module, both for survivability reasons, and to max out loot - etc. Yes, this is all pathetic behavior, and certainly flies in the face of "roleplaying", but those people *are* out there, and it's because of them that these rules exist. Sorry if this makes you feel that RPGA doesn't trust you; but, as you can see from the responses in this thread, there *are* a fair number of people who feel that playing a module more than once is, if not cheating, at least a bit questionable, and leaves the door open for abuse by less-than-scrupulous players. As SteveMND points out, by playing "Mad God's Key" casually first, your friend is going to know where the bad guys are, where the traps are, what the secrets are, etc. When he then goes to play it at a formal RPGA event, he's got foreknowledge, which, IMO, isn't fair. It's like running a Dungeon Magazine adventure for your home group, only one of your players has already read the adventure. And, as I said previously, "Mad God's Key" is an outlier for the RPGA. They almost never publish adventures in a general-release format (such as Dungeon), then also allow play of that adventure within one of their campaigns. So, that's probably why there isn't an explicit rule written down about this case. |
| Heron12-03-04, 12:07 PM | Hi, My first point is that, and I really cannot stress this enough, I have no intention of playing Mad God's Key in or out of the RPGA. My friend, who does exist and is not me in any way, shape or form, wants to do both. Please, PLEASE do not assume this is me asking for me and pretending to ask "for a friend". I'm not saying ANY of the aformentioned banter has been pathetic and nor would I - rules are there for a reason. I am irritated that the insinuation appears to be that I am trying to bend the rules, which I am not. Okay? Clear? Glad we got that out the way. (Sorry if this comes across as stroppy - I'm not fond of being accused of wrongdoing when I'm doing nothing wrong :) ) As for knowing where the bad guys are, where the traps are, what the secrets are, etc and having foreknowledge - you're assuming of course that anyone doing so would be playing competitively. I would like to think the majority of players are above that. I hope so, anyway. I'm grateful for all the feedback, really, but I would honestly like to avoid anyone thinking I'm out to personally bend the rules, find loopholes or cheat. Nothing could be further from my mind, and making any such accusation just leave a bitter aftertaste. If I've misread anyone's attitude or comments then I apologise most wholeheartedly; I'm not intending to come across as a troll or a provoker of any sort. Quite the opposite - I'm not one to rock the boat, I love a quiet life :) |
| SteveMND12-03-04, 12:09 PM | "Why on earth is playing the same module or scenario more than once wrong?" As I said before, if you can't comprehend why already knowing the answer to all the puzzles, already knowing how to avoid all the traps, and already knowing where all the secret doors, hidden caches, concealed pits, deadly combats, magical wards and potential allies are in a module isn't 'wrong,' then nothing we say here will be of any use to you. EDIT: "As for knowing where the bad guys are, where the traps are, what the secrets are, etc and having foreknowledge - you're assuming of course that anyone doing so would be playing competitively." Um, that's what the RPGA is, in a sense -- there's a reason why these things are tracked, you have ARs, etc. Not competitive against other players, per se, but competitive against yourself. If you know all the stuff I mentioned previously because you've already played the module, then you will by default act on that knowledge; it's impossible to do otherwise. The only way to avoid doing so is to not be a part of any of the decisions or activity in the module, and if you are doing that, then you are not actually playing the game. And if you are not playing the game, why bother? The point is, in the RPGA, these rules are there to help prevent cheaters. Why would your 'friend' (and I put friend in quotes not because I feel you are referring to yourself, but because your posts here indicate you have the same mindset, and the only thing that is keeping you from doing the same thing is the written rule) want to play it 'officially' next year, if he's already played it? He's already played it once, so why would he feel the need to play it a second time? |
| kenobi6512-03-04, 12:16 PM | As for knowing where the bad guys are, where the traps are, what the secrets are, etc and having foreknowledge - you're assuming of course that anyone doing so would be playing competitively. I would like to think the majority of players are above that. I hope so, anyway. *Most* are, I'm pretty sure. It's the few who aren't that sort of make life miserable for the rest of us, and lead the RPGA to be more rules-bound than most of us really need. There really are some players who play these games in a competitive fashion. Who they're competing against, I really don't know, but they want to get characters that are as powerful as possible, as quickly as possible. And, to that end, some of them are not above cheating to get there. If you don't have any players like this in your home group (and, even more, if you've never played with such players), then count yourself as fortunate. |
| Heron12-03-04, 12:19 PM | "Why on earth is playing the same module or scenario more than once wrong?" As I said before, if you can't comprehend why already knowing the answer to all the puzzles, already knowing how to avoid all the traps, and already knowing where all the secret doors, hidden caches, concealed pits, deadly combats, magical wards and potential allies are in a module isn't 'wrong,' then nothing we say here will be of any use to you. But it's not? Why is it? I go through a scenario as a strong, bullheaded warrior. I barge my way through, ordering NPCs about and generally making a nuisance of myself. I'm rude to other members of my party and I steal everything not bolted down. I play the adventure again, this time as a wizard. I'm obnoxious to people and unhelpful and I refuse to lift a finger to help, but I'm kept along for my uses as a scribe and as a teleporter. During my second pass of the scenario I pass on nothing I learnt during my first trip, and in fact as I put myself into my characters place, I refuse to acknowledge the placement of a trap that my first character neatly dodged. I take some damage and I complain bitterly - in-character of course - and I continue. I enjoy both experiences and I've not cheated. What's the problem? You seem to assume that I would play the scenario looking for rewards and avoiding dangers as though trying to prove I am better than my fellow gamer, which is certainly not the case. I've no doubt your word will be held in far greater esteem than mine, because I'm a new face to the board. However, I would be very grateful if you could not make assumptions about me. |
| Heron12-03-04, 12:22 PM | *Most* are, I'm pretty sure. It's the few who aren't that sort of make life miserable for the rest of us, and lead the RPGA to be more rules-bound than most of us really need. There really are some players who play these games in a competitive fashion. Who they're competing against, I really don't know, but they want to get characters that are as powerful as possible, as quickly as possible. And, to that end, some of them are not above cheating to get there. If you don't have any players like this in your home group (and, even more, if you've never played with such players), then count yourself as fortunate. Thanks for your reply Kenobi - you come across as a very reasonable guy :) I know, it's sad that some people play that way, but what are you going to do? Stay out of their way, I guess :) Personally I've been lucky, I suppose. I think I've literally met a handful of overly competitive players, those who turn up literally always after the best of everything and shunning the bad. Thankfully I've managed to give most of them a wide berth. Cheers! |
| SteveMND12-03-04, 01:09 PM | "During my second pass of the scenario I pass on nothing I learnt during my first trip, and in fact as I put myself into my characters place, I refuse to acknowledge the placement of a trap that my first character neatly dodged. I take some damage and I complain bitterly - in-character of course - and I continue." I'm not talking about being able to enjoy a module by playing different characters to experience how NPCs would react to them, etc. I'm talking about your play not being influenced by the fact that you know everything about the module already. It is impossible to not act on prior knowledge of that significance and still call yourself 'playing' the module. Let's say you've already played a module, and you know that the Big Bad Guy is a nasty rogue. You know, from your earlier experience, that he's aware of the party coming in, has improved invisibility cast on him, and has true strike ready for his first shot. You also know where he emerges onto the battlemat, and that he will kill any PC at the table with that one shot. Now, you all enter the final room, unaware of the bad guy. You are asked to place your mini on the table. Your foreknowledge of where the BBG is going to strike is going to play a part, whether you like it or not. You either defy your knowledge and put your PC where you know he may be hit first, thereby sacrificing your own PC to conceal the fact that you know where he hits from. You've just acted on your prior knowledge. This may have unwanted consequences, since maybe because of your character's death means that the PCs won't be able to handle another part of the module, and it might be a TPK. Or maybe instead you give in to your prior knowledge and put your guy on the opposite side of the mat. You've also just acted on your prior knowledge, and now somebody else's character will die because of your having played the module before. It's one thing to lose a character to a poor die roll or an unfortunate choice of tactics, but it's a far different thing to lose your PC because somebody else at the table had foreknowledge of the module, and his actions -- or inactions -- contributed to your PC's death. Do you really think it's okay to allow a PC in the party to die -- thereby potentially cancelling out years worth of gameplay with that character for that RPGA member -- just because you already know about what's going to happen? Or maybe you let somebody else put your mini on the table. In which case you aren't really participating anymore, and if you know the entire mod, you'll be letting other people make your decisions for you more than you will be your own. And that means you aren't contributing to the module, and that can lead to PC deaths as well -- the table is essentially toting along six playerts but only getting support from five of them. That's unfair to the other players as well. More to the point: if your friend has already played the game once in a non-RPGA setting, why would he need to play it again in an official RPGA capacity? The only reason to play it a second time in an official RPGA capacity is to acrue campaign-legal XP, gold and item access for his PC. If he just wants to play it again to 'exprience it from a different character's perspective,' there is no reason at all to have to do so in an official RPGA capacity. Anyway you look at it, it's unfair to the other players to do so. |
| kenobi6512-03-04, 01:14 PM | I enjoy both experiences and I've not cheated. What's the problem? You seem to assume that I would play the scenario looking for rewards and avoiding dangers as though trying to prove I am better than my fellow gamer, which is certainly not the case. It sounds like replaying adventures (with different characters) is the norm in your home group, that everyone in your group is cool with it, and that you've got a gentlemen's agreement to not use out-of-character knowledge when you replay the adventure. That's great. But, you really need to realize that this isn't the norm in the broader gaming community. There's an awful lot of people who view replaying an adventure as prima facie evidence of cheating, especially in the context of the more regulated play that RPGA represents. Whether or not you'd ever even consider cheating isn't the issue. When you go out of your home group, and play at RPGA events, you sometimes need to adapt your play style to the (often more restrictive) rules that the RPGA uses. (For example, there was a thread on the general RPGA board a few weeks ago by a guy who just couldn't understand why LG insisted on using point-buy for character generation; he felt that rolling dice was the only true way to generate ability scores.) (BTW, I've corresponded with SteveMND on these boards for several years now, as well as being familiar with him from his work as campaign co-ordinator for the late, lamented Living Dragonstar campaign. IME, he's actually a pretty insightful, reasonable guy, so if he's having an issue with something, I can guarantee you that he won't be the only one who would.) |
| hustonjj12-03-04, 03:51 PM | Somehow, I don't understand where this thread is heading. One person asked whether or not there was a written rule preventing a given player from playing a given event more than once. Said reference was provided. Another individual mentioned that Major Fraud under the penalties document includes playing something you've judged. I reckon that something you have prepared/read would count the same and that something you have previously played would probably count as Minor Fraud. So, now the conversation has degraded into about wether the rules are valid or not? Nobody involved in this conversation made those rules. Nobody involved in this conversation has the authority to change or ignore them. If you believe these rules are inapproprite, take the time to lay out a VERY careful set of arguments supporting your position, and attempting to "deal" with counter arguments you may never directly hear, and submit those points to RPGA leadership in an attempt to get the rules changed. You'll need to have your proposal evaluated by Ian and/or SRM. They can both be reached at: rpgahq@wizards.com Meanwhile, let's accept that the existing rules are as they are, and discuss how we can comply with them, instead of why they are wrong. Jeff Huston Spobody Necial |
| King Kashue12-04-04, 12:59 AM | The conversation has moved to a different aspect of the issue (which I also find irrelevant, but others obviously don't) but it still a discussion of RPGA rules within the Living Greyhawk campaign, and it therefore still topical... Your suggestion on how to change the rules is useful if anyone is considering that course of action, but it is unecessary to castigate people like children because you don't feel the discussion is significant anymore (you seem to get paternalistic quite often, it's not the most endearing of traits)... |
| SteveMND12-04-04, 02:39 AM | Thanks for the vote of confidence, kenobi. :-D I don't have an issue with Heron personally or anything; I just feel that it is impossible for a player to play a module a second time and not be influenced in their decisions by what they know already from the previous game. It's just human nature; you can't intentionally 'forget' something. Even if you intentionally do not do stuff that you know would be beneficial, you are still being influenced by your previous knowledge. That's the philosophical argument of it though; the practical argument is that why does this person feel the need to play the same module a second time as an official RPGA-sanctioned event? The only reason would be to gain module awards for his character, and to do so when you know already the ins or outs of a module is simply wrong at best, and unfair to the other players at worst. Mind you, I wouldn't care if something like this were done at a home game, or even if the players played the mod first as an RPGA-sanctioned event, and then later played it again as a home game. As a home game, you can do whatever your DM and the other players agree to, but that's not a luxury you have in a game of LG. |
| Heron12-04-04, 05:28 AM | That's the philosophical argument of it though; the practical argument is that why does this person feel the need to play the same module a second time as an official RPGA-sanctioned event? The only reason would be to gain module awards for his character, and to do so when you know already the ins or outs of a module is simply wrong at best, and unfair to the other players at worst. Sorry, but what you just said is utter rubbish - I hated saying that because it makes me sound like a troll, but please don't assume everyone is the same. I'll spell it out again for you. Okay? My friend wants to play MDK with other friends, in a friendly environment for fun. He has been told by a bunch of other friends that they are going to an RPGA event next year where it's being run, and would he come. He answered that he would, but was worried about already having played it. However, this is a losing argument for me, so I'll very kindly drop it. There would be absolutely no reason for me, someone new to this board, to get into a heated debate with someone who's been on this board for a long time and seems to be well respected. Somehow, I don't understand where this thread is heading. Thanks for the post Jeff, much obliged. The thread does seem to have gone way off topic, doesn't it? Still, it makes the blood pump a bit :) Cheers chaps. |
| SteveMND12-04-04, 09:19 AM | "My friend wants to play MDK with other friends, in a friendly environment for fun. He has been told by a bunch of other friends that they are going to an RPGA event next year where it's being run, and would he come. He answered that he would, but was worried about already having played it." Mad God's Key? Actually, that may just solve the issue regardless. According to the RPGA's database (https://events.wizards.com/RPGAWeb/external/econplay.asp?ScenarioCd=MDGKY1LG), Mad God's Key is scheduled to be retired as an RPGA mod at the end of this year. He may want to double-check with the people running this RPGA event next year to see if it's intended to be run as an actual RPGA mod. IF that's the case, then maybe he could play the mod as an RPGA mod with the first group of friends, and then play it with the second group next year for fun; problem solved. |
| hustonjj12-04-04, 11:12 AM | (you seem to get paternalistic quite often, it's not the most endearing of traits)... My job includes "watching over"/guiding/controlling/encouraging/etc. roughly 130 young men and women, and sometimes paternalistic is EXACTLY the tone I have to take. It can be a lot more effective than pure, cold, impersonal direction. Yeah, I find it easy to believe that when a given discussion starts sounding just like the troops do when they've missed the point and are on the way to being too far out of line in their behavior, that I would step in while taking such a tone. Looking at the posts, though, I see where a question was asked, answered, people began detailing their disagreement with the answer, and even identifying how they intended to violate the answer. To my eyes, it looked as though a couple of people were beginning to get a little hot under the collar, and people needed to be reminded that 1) None of us are directly responsible if another chooses to violate the RPGA rules once we have ensured they know and understand them 2) If one of us witneses such a violatoin, THEN we are obligated to report it 3) There are ways to go about getting those rules changed if you disagree with them, without violating them 4) The system has SOME checks and balances that can catch SOME such violations without human intervention 5) This is all SUPPOSED to be about having fun. I thought some of these messages were all ready being delivered, and others were too agressive for the situation, so I tried to deliver the subset that felt most right in an attempt to sidetrack the heat I think was developing. I'm not sure what action you would prefer I took. Care to elaborate on that? Jeff Huston Spobody Necial |
| CruelDM12-04-04, 05:54 PM | Regardless of the letter of the rules, its intent and spirit seem crystal clear to me. The RPGA does not want you playing in any event they sponsor with any forknowledge of the event. Judging an LG event with forknowledge is fine, in fact its mandated by the general rules that to judge a table at an LG event the judge should have re-read the mod ahead of time. The simple answer to his initial question is simply: No, it is against the RPGA rules to play an event more than once. These rules are quite clear, at least to me. If you or your friend or my home group, or even myself wish to play an RPGA mod more than once (once at home and once at an official, sanctioned event) the mod should be played first at the official RPGA event and secondly at home. In any event I am pretty sure the other poster was correct that stated the mod in question will be retired on the last day of this year. Its sequel, "Key to the Grave" was a year 3 mod that is also due to retire at the end of this year if Im not mistaken. Other dungeon mag mods have been sanctioned for official RPGA play in the past and were retired mere months after their publications. |
| King Kashue12-05-04, 03:57 AM | My job includes "watching over"/guiding/controlling/encouraging/etc. roughly 130 young men and women, and sometimes paternalistic is EXACTLY the tone I have to take. It can be a lot more effective than pure, cold, impersonal direction. Yeah, I find it easy to believe that when a given discussion starts sounding just like the troops do when they've missed the point and are on the way to being too far out of line in their behavior, that I would step in while taking such a tone. *snip* I'm not sure what action you would prefer I took. Care to elaborate on that? Jeff Huston Spobody Necial Yeah, something other than telling people how to use the boards...You aren't a moderator, it's not your job to tell people when they're out of line...Suggesting that folks chill out a bit is very different than telling them... Your job is not here, and these are not any of the 130 young men or women you have authority or direction over...These people are your equals and speaking to them as subordinates is grating and likely to make them less receptive to your advice...This shouldn't be a choice between paternalistic suggestion and impersonal direction...It should be suggestion, not direction... Speaking to people as equals is the action that seems preferable to me...Exact same advice, different tone... |
| hustonjj12-05-04, 10:49 AM | Suggesting that folks chill out a bit is very different than telling them... <SNIP> Speaking to people as equals is the action that seems preferable to me...Exact same advice, different tone... I submit that the difference between these is TONE. I further submit that the internet is infamous for the inability of people to correctly read the intended tone. How much of what you are attributing to me is your interpretation and not my intent? Just a question. Remember, I responded to your statement that I was being paternalistic with an explanation about why that would come naturally, NOT an agreement that such was my intent. Jeff Huston Spobody Necial |
| smerwin2912-05-04, 08:33 PM | No offense intended, but this discussion now seems only relevant to two members of the boards, so I ask that you two take the discussion off the list. Thanks, Shawn |
| King Kashue12-06-04, 07:26 PM | No offense intended, but this discussion now seems only relevant to two members of the boards, so I ask that you two take the discussion off the list. Thanks, Shawn Hmmm...totally at a loss as to whether you're serious or if it's subtle humor...if it's serious, let me know...if it's not, it's funny... ;) |
| King Kashue12-06-04, 07:32 PM | I submit that the difference between these is TONE. I further submit that the internet is infamous for the inability of people to correctly read the intended tone. How much of what you are attributing to me is your interpretation and not my intent? Just a question. Remember, I responded to your statement that I was being paternalistic with an explanation about why that would come naturally, NOT an agreement that such was my intent. Jeff Huston Spobody Necial In writing there is no tone of voice, so tone in writing is a matter of language choice, and that it the issue here...I cannot discern your intent, except through examination of your word choice (and you chose words of absolute statement and command as opposed to conditional statement and suggestion)... Take Smerwin's post..."No offense intended, but this discussion now seems only relevant to two members of the boards, so I ask that you two take the discussion off the list" He could have said, "This no longer is relevant to anyone, so take it off the boards"...Language choice is different... You can't control how people are going to react to your words, but you can predict how people will likely react and choose your words accordingly... Smerwin, as for relevance, I would suggest that this issue is actually relevant to anyone who deals with other people...However, you are correct in that it is no longer topical (i.e., we're not talking about LG anymore), so yeah, we should probably taper the discussion... |