Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Necrochaos 03-29-06, 09:55 PM	I know there is a rogue thread, but I believe this one is different So I'm sure everyone is tired of me asking for character help. I haven't stolen anything this time. I don't have a rogue, and I haven't played on since the switch of 3.0 to 3.5. What I want is a character with some major skill points. I don't have any with skills points yet. I have a beefstick (occult slayer) I have a diplomat (marshal/paladin), I have an archer and I have a wizards and cleric. So what I would like with this guy is to be the skill guy (pick locks/traps etc.) but also to be somewhat effective in combat. I was thinking a mobility guy. Tumbling up to get one good hit off and coming back. I was thinking Rog2/Scout 2/Ranger 2. Maybe TWF with my skirmish and hoping to tumble into flank and catch them flat footed. I don't have a character who is mobile or can tumble. Maybe I'm not seeing the big picture here. I don't have an idea for the prestige class yet either. Trying to find a build. Tallfellow Halfling (for the elf abilities) Str 12, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10 Cha 8 Rog 1 -Dog Scout 1 - for the skirmish and skill points Rog 2 -Mobility Rng 1 Scout 2 Rang 2- Spring Attack, TW Combat style. I'm pretty stuck after that. I could change race if it is more beneficial or balance my stats. I have no idea what to do for a prestige class. Please put your ideas if possible and show the modified build.
Mommy was an Orc 03-29-06, 10:01 PM	Actually, I just posted some guidelines on low level Rogues on the CO part to steal... here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=612779)
paigeoliver 03-29-06, 11:32 PM	In actual play it always seemed like the spring attack/dodge/mobility guys were pretty ineffective. Maybe I just haven't run into an effective build for one yet, but it always seems like they were just doing 3 or 4 points of damge WHEN they managed to hit something. An 18 Dex, 14 Con halfling is going to be on par with the tanks for armor class, and will have good hit points as well. Chain shirt and buckler gets you AC 20 before any enhancements. Here is my first suggestion, which does not use the scout class to avoid stacking a pair of 3/4 BAB classes in your early career. Level 1. Rogue. Weapon focus rapier. Level 2. Swashbucler. comes with free Weapon finesse. Level 3. Rogue TWF if you want it, I'd personally rather take combat expertise. Go back and forth with Rogue and swashbuckler until you find a prestige class you like. Swashbuckler gets you an INT bonus on damage around 3rd level. TWF isn't exactly the best combo to go along with skirmish or spring attack, since you can't do both at once.
Arvagor 03-30-06, 01:11 AM	Actually, I just posted some guidelines on low level Rogues on the CO part to steal...I like your referenced post, Mommy, but I had to laugh, because my rogue doesn't fall into any of your 5 "types" :) (I think I considered him heading towards Spring Attacker when I started out, but he's drifted...) Human; starting stats: Str 13, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 9 (bumps went to Dex, also got a +1 bump from to Cha @ level 3 via AR) Rog 1 - Sneak 1d6; Feats: Dodge, Mobility Rog 2 - Evasion Ftr 1 - Feats: Jack of All Trades, Weapon Finesse (B) Rog 3 - Sneak 2d6, trap sense +1 Rog 4 - Uncanny Dodge Ftr 2 - Combat Expertise, Improved Feint (B) Thief-Acrobat 1 - Fast Acrobatics, Kip Up, Steady Stance Thief-Acrobat 2 - Agile Fighting, Slow Fall Rog 5 - Sneak 3d6; Feat: Staggering Strike Current major equipment: Ring +1, Cloak +2, Mithral shirt +1, Dkwood buckler +1, rapier +1, Handy Haversack (holds lots of alchemicals!), gloves of dex +2, and Belt of One Mighty Blow. Current major skills: Balance +19, Bluff +10, Climb +12, Disable Device +16, Escape +8 (just starting to put some ranks in that now), Jump +15, Open Lock +12 (if I can't get it in one shot, I give it to the BDF), Search +14, Tumble +19, UMD +10 His Will save is still pretty sucky (currently Fort +7, Ref +14, Will +3; includes Cloak +2), and people sometimes laugh that I picked Jack of All Trades as one of my feats (they stop, though, when I get to make the skill checks -- esp. Knowledge -- that nobody else bothered to put ranks in). That 5th level of rogue (at level 9) kinda hurt, as the only thing you gain there is an additional 1d6 of sneak (no BAB or save increases), but I've got some flexibility esp. for the next level -- Rog 6 will increase BAB and all saves by 1; Thf-Acr 3 will increase BAB, Fort, and Will, and give me the Acrobatic Charge, and defensive roll abilities. But he's still alive, he has not died yet (knock on wood!), and best of all, he's fun to play!
Sieylianna 03-30-06, 07:17 AM	Level 1. Rogue. Weapon focus rapier. Level 2. Swashbucler. comes with free Weapon finesse. Level 3. Rogue TWF if you want it, I'd personally rather take combat expertise. Go back and forth with Rogue and swashbuckler until you find a prestige class you like. Swashbuckler gets you an INT bonus on damage around 3rd level. You can not take weapon focus as a first level rogue because you don't have a +1 BAB. This (and the same thing with weapon finesse) is the most common mistake I see in potential builds. But I agree not to mix scout and rogue. Pick one or the other. As a halfling, your movement is only 20, so it's difficult to move or tumble into a flanking posiiton. Ed
paigeoliver 03-30-06, 07:41 AM	I always make mistakes like that when doing the builds on the fly without the books in front of me. That has an easy fix though. Here, I based this around two weapon fighting because the poster seemed to want that. Note that this build gets 3 levels of swashbuckler to get INT on damage (and for hit points). The most basic build would max out at 15th level as Rogue 12 / Swashbuckler 3. But the 12th level of rogue isn't the best level. Well, it has saves, and BAB, but the ability for that level is the sucky "trap sense" one. I'd personally trade out one of the rogue levels for Barbarian (hit points, rage), or Favored Soul (pick a couple spells, +2 on all saves). Level 1. Rogue. Two weapon fighting. Sneak attack Level 2. Swashbucler. comes with free Weapon finesse. Level 3. Rogue. Weapon Focus rapier. Or other finessable weapon of choice. Evasion Level 4. Swashbuckler. Level 5. Swashbuckler. Int bonus on damage. Level 6. Rogue Two weapon defense. Sneak attack 2d6 Level 7 Rogue. Uncanny dodge. Level 8 Rogue. 3d6 sneak attack. Level 9 Rogue. Improved 2 weapon fighting. Level 10-15 Rogue Greater 2 weapon fighting at 15th. Pick a 12th feat you like. Note, I assumed halfling here, so I didn't list a human bonus feat.
Necrochaos 03-30-06, 06:03 PM	Paigeoliver, I like your build, does it lead to any PrC at all? I've never played a rogue up to a PrC, so I'm not that familiar with them
paigeoliver 03-30-06, 08:10 PM	I honestly didn't figure in any prestige classes, but rogues get a lot of skill points, so it would probably easily qualify for a few of them.
Arvagor 03-30-06, 08:38 PM	I honestly didn't figure in any prestige classes, but rogues get a lot of skill points, so it would probably easily qualify for a few of them.It depends on what you put your skill points into. Despite having a nice Int bonus, and getting lots of skill points to spend, my rogue only qualified for (and still only qualifies) for Thief-Acrobat, because that's the focus I was driving him towards
Necrochaos 03-30-06, 09:48 PM	Are these stats exceptable for the rogue swashbuckler build? Tallfellow Halfling (for the elf abilities) Str 12, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10 Cha 8
paigeoliver 03-30-06, 11:06 PM	Are these stats exceptable for the rogue swashbuckler build? Tallfellow Halfling (for the elf abilities) Str 12, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10 Cha 8 Those are the exact stats I would have used. With the slight possibility of swapping Charisma and Wisdom (depends on what skills you want).
Mommy was an Orc 03-31-06, 12:25 PM	Here, I based this around two weapon fighting because the poster seemed to want that. Note that this build gets 3 levels of swashbuckler to get INT on damage (and for hit points). The most basic build would max out at 15th level as Rogue 12 / Swashbuckler 3. Swashbuckler isn't that great for a nearly pure Rogue build in LG - either you're generating Sneak Attack damage or you're not. Swashbuckler is much better for a mutt who happens to do a die or two or three of sneak attack, but is often relying on other damage to do what he does. The other issue is that neither Rogue nor Swashbuckler get shield proficiency, making Improved Buckler/Improved Shield Bash impossible. Something that makes TWF a lot easier because the Rogue likely has the equivalent of Full Plate + Shield going rather than just Full Plate.
solbergb 03-31-06, 01:06 PM	Yeh. My wife has a rogue/swashbuckler/tactical fighter build in the works, but it isn't really rogue role. It's light infantry with "butler" and bodyguarding skills, doing delay and setup while her warmage noble does the killing, safely behind her character. That build ends up with insightful strike and about 2d6 of sneak, but is fairly strong and has power attack+cleave, so does meaningful damage even vs nonsneakable targets. It uses spike chain and spear, so the lack of shield proficiency is a nonissue.
Necrochaos 04-01-06, 11:00 AM	I don't think this is moving into what I'm looking for. I'm looking to have a roguey character, lots of skills, sneak attack. I'm not a main fighter, mainly support. So I'm not sure where to take the build. Maybe we should start back at the beginning and focus on skills and support instead of pure damage.
Arvagor 04-01-06, 06:21 PM	I don't think this is moving into what I'm looking for. I'm looking to have a roguey character, lots of skills, sneak attack. I'm not a main fighter, mainly support. So I'm not sure where to take the build. Maybe we should start back at the beginning and focus on skills and support instead of pure damage.Well, you're original post said, "So what I would like with this guy is to be the skill guy (pick locks/traps etc.) but also to be somewhat effective in combat", which is why people were putting Fighter/Scout/Swashbuckler in the build. If you want a "roguey" PC now, and lots of skill point, then just make him a straight Rogue every level, and based on your other original requirement ("Tumbling up to get one good hit off and coming back"), make sure he has the Spring Attack tree along the way.
Necrochaos 04-01-06, 06:39 PM	I guess my question would lie can someone with spring attack be effective in combat? I'm planning on being support, but are there other classes to help me do this? Is it worth it to add Scout into the mix to get the skirmish damage on top of the sneak attack damage when I get it? What about as a halfling, would mounted combat be a good way to go? Would it be worth it as a rogue? I'm just looking for a way to be very skill orientent, but be effective support in combat. I'm not a tank, or the big damage guy, just a guy in the fight who can help when he is needed. I'm not used to playing this type of character. Either I'm the cleric, or I'm the dumb fighter type. I'm not sure where my role would lie with this character. I appreciate everyone's help in this matter.
SgtHulka 04-03-06, 01:10 AM	IMHO straight rogue's problem is lack of feats; but it's advantage is sneak attack. I have fun with a straight rogue 5, human: Str10, Dex19(Lvl4bump), Con10, Int14, Wis8, Cha10 Level 1: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint Level 3: Weapon Finesse Level 6: (when I reach it) Improved Toughness I got 5 ranks in Balance, Climb and Jump and then I came as close as I could to maxing out Bluff, Move Silently, Hide, Open Locks, Search, Spot, Listen, Disable Device, Escape Artist* and Tumble. *Don't overlook Escape Artist I did until Level 5 and then blew a lot of points to max it because it's awesome. Now I'm trying to figure out where to find the skill points to max out UMD. Note that even though your Rogue seems to get a lot of skill points it's not enough. Move Silently, Hide, Search, Tumble, and Disable Device are obvious. But Spot and Listen are important to get you to act in that important flat-footed surprise round. That only leaves 1+int bonus skills as actual "choices". If I were to do this same guy over again I'd start with Str 11, Dex 17 and Con 12. Another interesting Rogue build I've seen is the halfling thrower. This guy had quickdraw and improved initiative (I think) and two-weapon fighting and maxed out dex. He specialized in double-chucking alchemist's fire, using both the surprise round and the top of the first round to sneak attack all the flat-footed bozos. And, of course, there's the standard tumble into flanking and two-weapon sneak attack rogue. The big problems you'll find as a rogue, though, is everything is immune to sneak attack, and a d6 hit die is extremely painful if you're hoping to get into melee.
paigeoliver 04-03-06, 01:54 AM	I might be in the minority in saying this, but I believe you can chuck hide and move silently right out the window. According to my stack of ARs I have played in 62 games, ranging from Intro modules to APL 10. In all those games I have seen move silently used ZERO times and hide used exactly once. The one hide attempt was me, when I had my halfling hide under a table. Here is my take on the rogue skills. Appraise. No practical LG use. Bluff. Only if you are a face, or want to feint. Climb. Not as useful as you would think, since chances are good that you are going to have 2-4 players at the table with NEGATIVE scores in climb, and thus you'll have to pull out the knotted ropes and fly spells and stuff anyway. Craft. No practical LG use. Decipher Script. A lot of modules have things in them that WOULD be perfect Decipher Script candidates, but the text of the adventure will specifically say that it doesn't work on them. Diplomacy. Only if you are going to MAX it out, AND get the synergies. Disable Device. Max this out of course. Disguise. I have never seen anyone use it. Escape Artist. Max this one out. Forgery. Never seen it used for anything other than detecting a forgery. Gather Information. MAX it out, or ignore it. Hide. Seen it used once, and that was me. Not counting various teenage players who try to hide in plain sight in the middle of combat. Intimidate. Max it or ignore it. I'd pick diplomacy first, has more overall uses. Jump. Only seen people make jump checks 2 or 3 times. Knowledge Local. Max it out for your metaregion and for Core. Knowledge (the other ones, cross class). It is really worthwhile getting 1 rank in every knowledge skill if you have the skill points, since they come up about a zillion times more often than the actual classic rogue skills. Listen. I'd pick either spot or listen and max one of them, but not both. Move Silently. I never see it used. Open Lock. Max it out, or ignore it. Perform. A few ranks for flavor, otherwise only good for rogue/bard combos. Profession. Put 1 rank in Profession: Sailor, I see that one all the time, can't really remember seeing any other one more than once. Search. Max it out or ignore it. Sense Motive. I hate, hate, hate this skill and refuse to put ranks in it on principle. I'd like it better if the GM made the rolls for the player. Sleight of Hand. Never seen it used. Spot. See listen. Swim. This skill is worth putting a few ranks in if you have spare ones, but it hardly ever comes up. Tumble. Should be maxed out at every level. Use Magic Device. Should be maxed out or ignored. Use Rope. Worth a few ranks, but no need to go crazy on it. Its good for tying people up.
Lomiat 04-03-06, 02:51 AM	I wouldn't ignore the Scout4/Rog3/Shadowdancer1/Nightsong Enforcer build. Lots of sneak attack and skirmish dice to damage. Max skill points per level. Wood elf: Str 16, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 8 Feats: 1-Dodge, 3-Mobility, 6-Combat Reflexes, 7-(bonus Scout feat) Spring Attack, 9-Staggering Strike, 12-Power Attack (or your discretion) Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain sight makes up for a lot of what you lose in BAB and moving to attack. Use a reach weapon (longspear).
Sieylianna 04-03-06, 07:37 AM	I think Disguise is one that is used from region to region. I see hide/move silenty used in about 1 module out of 4, but our region doesn't seem to have a lot of tank fighter or mounted combat types. I generally put enough points into open lock to give me a 5. I can take 20 to open something DC 25 or less. Ed
Necrochaos 04-03-06, 09:52 PM	I wouldn't ignore the Scout4/Rog3/Shadowdancer1/Nightsong Enforcer build. Lots of sneak attack and skirmish dice to damage. Max skill points per level. Wood elf: Str 16, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 8 Feats: 1-Dodge, 3-Mobility, 6-Combat Reflexes, 7-(bonus Scout feat) Spring Attack, 9-Staggering Strike, 12-Power Attack (or your discretion) Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain sight makes up for a lot of what you lose in BAB and moving to attack. Use a reach weapon (longspear). I love this idea. It sounds great. Will I lose much in skills from the cross-classing? That's my only concern, but combat wise, this is right on the money.
Mommy was an Orc 04-04-06, 12:01 AM	Notes: Bluff = Super synergy skill - we're talking +2 to 4 skills. Useful if you're not the party face, but you'd like to occasionally make a Diplomacy or Intimidate roll. Decipher Script = Synergy skill for scrolls/UMD. Easy +2 if you're maxxing out UMD in the first place. Disguise = If you're hunted by an AR, good way to throw casual spotting off the trail. Jump = Almost every Rogue mutt build has some levels in Fighter and Jump is a synergy skill to Tumble. Search = if you're a Rogue, max this one out over Disable Device. You can always point the trap out and have the adamantine BDF cut his way around it. Hide/Move Silently/Spot/Listen = many, many things do not have Spot/Listen scores of which to speak of. You take 10 on the rolls and move 60' ahead of the party. If you're decent at Hide/Move Silently, you should not be spotted. Don't do this until you're at +11 or better. One of the big problems with a lot of Rogue skills is that Box Text often assumes there's not a Rogue in the party. I've been in one adventure where my Rogue tried to kick everyone out of the room we were searching and apparently Box Text forbade me from doing that. Another adventure I made a Spot Check of +25 at 4th level when I otherwise would have been ambushed after combat started and likely taken out. The point being is that as a Rogue, you're often going to be in the position of having to convince the DM that the Box Text isn't 'applicable' to the situation. You have to point out that Search is one of the skills that they suggest you should be able to take 20 on. Bluff. Only if you are a face, or want to feint. Decipher Script. A lot of modules have things in them that WOULD be perfect Decipher Script candidates, but the text of the adventure will specifically say that it doesn't work on them. Disguise. I have never seen anyone use it. Escape Artist. Max this one out. Hide. Seen it used once, and that was me. Not counting various teenage players who try to hide in plain sight in the middle of combat. Move Silently. I never see it used..
Lomiat 04-04-06, 03:14 AM	I love this idea. It sounds great. Will I lose much in skills from the cross-classing? That's my only concern, but combat wise, this is right on the money. You'll lose a lot in cross-classing IF you intend to play as a "face" rogue. However, as a sneaking, backstabbing, trap-disarming, ambush-detecting rogue, you won't lose anything of which to speak. Scout gives you pretty much all the physical skills as well as Speak Language, which is a bit of an oddball in the bunch, but it's great in Greyhawk. If you end up going to Nightsong Enforcer for the BAB progression, you'll drop down to 4 + INT skill points per level, which will be enough to let you Hide, Move Silently, and disarm stuff, perhaps even to pursue one Spot or Listen; however, Nightsong Enforcer requires Improved Initiative in addition to the feats required for Shadowdancer, making the feat selection even more limited, but the Nightsong's Sneak Attack is front-loaded at 1st level and gains +4d6 over 10 levels, worth considering for a full BAB class. Another option, then, is to play a Human Scout/Rogue with stats similar to the following: STR 14, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 12, WIS 12, CHA 8 You could change your CON, INT, and WIS to best suit you, but you shouldn't need too many hit points with Evasion and the goal of always staying out of reach. The WIS doesn't really add to much except saving throws and the Spot/Listen stuff that would be part of your character's main function at a table. Of course even better, if you got access, would be to go from Shadowdancer to Dread Commando. If everything came together perfectly, a 15th level Human Scout4/Rog3/Shadowdancer1/Dread Commando5/Nightsong Enforcer2 would have 12 BAB, Hide and Move Silently 18 + DEX + Magical Enhancements, Initiative of 9 + DEX, and +7d6 extra dice of Skirmish/Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike dice that would all come into play with successful jaunts in and out of the shadows during Spring Attacks. Feats: 1-Dodge, 1/human bonus-Mobility, 3-Combat Reflexes, 6/scout 4th level-Spring Attack, 6-Improved Initiative, 9-Staggering Strike, 12-Power Attack, 15-arterial strike??? Furthermore, such a character would be designed almost explicitly toward navigating the treacherous path toward the enemy, clearing the way, to scout them out, then reporting back to the PCs to lead the ambush on the foes who intended to ambush the PCs. Such events happen rarely in Greyhawk, and you'd have to work with your DMs. But it could be a lot of fun.
JamesMaissen 04-04-06, 03:34 AM	There's lots of advice for playing rogues. Let me just give 3 pieces here and I'm sure the post will be far too long. Learn the rules on take-20 and take 10 for skills and how unrelated the two things are to one another. A rogue should endevour to take 10 in every situation that they possibly can. This is why many advanced PrC abilities give this for certain skills and the rogue special feat Skill Master exists. Base most everything around the take 10 that you can (ie get to a +24 search/disable, also always sneak using the take 10 when you can, etc). Next let's break down stats for a rogue for a second: STR: Encumberance first and foremost for most rogues as if they become encumbered they loose evasion, take penalties on skills and cap dex bonus to AC. Many rogues opt for weapon finesse to use DEX to hit with, but a STR score is nice to fall back on for those things you cannot sneak attack. Depending on the kind of rogue you wish to be is where you will figure your strength score at. INT: Combat expertise is a nice feat for a rogue to use to cork/get into position for full round sneak attacks. Likewise Search/Disable fall off it (baring tactile trapsmith) and extra skills/level. If in doubt drop 6pts here for a 14. WIS: Most rogues tend not to multiclass (unless it's to merely dip into rogue) and head towards the nice Rogue special feats at 10th (and possibly 13th). Thus will save will be few and far between. Even if you PrC, most rogue PrCs don't favor will so it will only hurt matters. Thus your WIS score will continue to greatly effect your WILL save. But in any event don't have an 8 WIS as this will preclude you from benefiting from IMBUE w/ SPELL ABILITY giving you a pair of gravestrikes and a divine insight (std package). DEX: Don't over-invest here at the cost of other stats that you will desire. CON: People just look at CON scores relative to combat roles and don't think the big picture of total hps. At d6 hd a rogue only gets 4+CON hps.. ín other words a 14 CON rogue is the equivalent of a 10 CON fighter. Keep this in mind. Playing a 12 CON rogue is giving yourself wizard hps without the false life spell!! CHR: A dump stat for all but the most dedicated face rogues. Normally ranks will get you the lion's share of where you need to be here. The 3pt swing between a 14CHA and a 8 CHA is not as important as elsewhere. It's a zero sum game, so you need to take the dumps where you can. And lastly a small comment to the original poster on halfling subraces for rogues: The elven racial abilities are great and wonderful for a rogue. However if you plan on being a scouting rogue I will counter all of those abilities with one compound word: Darkvision. It's very hard to hide while carrying a torch and it will be along time until you can have it otherwise (Shadowdancer, other PrCs, spells, or items). -James
Reylance 04-06-06, 05:35 PM	Are these stats exceptable for the rogue swashbuckler build? Tallfellow Halfling (for the elf abilities) Str 12, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10 Cha 8 That's 6+10+6+6+2+0=30 build points. Drop Dex to 17.
lateforwork 04-07-06, 11:47 AM	Have you tried being a Rogue yet?
Necrochaos 04-11-06, 06:11 PM	I wouldn't ignore the Scout4/Rog3/Shadowdancer1/Nightsong Enforcer build. Lots of sneak attack and skirmish dice to damage. Max skill points per level. Wood elf: Str 16, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 8 Feats: 1-Dodge, 3-Mobility, 6-Combat Reflexes, 7-(bonus Scout feat) Spring Attack, 9-Staggering Strike, 12-Power Attack (or your discretion) Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain sight makes up for a lot of what you lose in BAB and moving to attack. Use a reach weapon (longspear). Do I take this as Scout first or Rog? Do I alternate levels? And I take it level 7 feat is for Improved Inititave to get into Nightsong?
Lomiat 04-11-06, 08:50 PM	Do I take this as Scout first or Rog? Do I alternate levels? And I take it level 7 feat is for Improved Inititave to get into Nightsong? Since I didn't have the books on hand when I suggested the build, I'd overlooked that Nightsong Enforcer needs Improved Init. Thus, I'd recommend the following: Human Scout4/Rog3/Shadowdancer1/Dread Commando5/Nightsong Enforcer2 Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8 1-Scout; Dodge, Mobility 2-Scout 3-Rogue; Improved Init 4-Rogue; Bump to Dex 5-Rogue 6-Scout; Combat Reflexes 7-Scout; Spring Attack 8-Shadowdancer 9-Dread Commando; Staggering Strike 10-Dread Commando 11-Dread Commando 12-Dread Commando; Power Attack 13-Dread Commando 14-Nightsong Enforcer 15-Nightsong Enforcer Unfortunately, both Dread Commando and Nightsong Enforcer are Limited classes. If you don't get access to them, you're probably best off continuing as a straight Rogue or taking a level of Ranger and switching to Highland Stalker. Scout gets 8+INT skill points, same as a Rogue, but gets a d8 hit die. That's why it's best to go Scout first. You get Evasion as Rogue 2 by 4th level when you might first expect Fireballs. Dread Commando, if you haven't seen it, gives your entire party an initiative bonus equal to your Dread Commando class level. It also gives full BAB and Sudden Strike +3d6 over 5 levels (Sudden Strike: extra dice of damage when you catch your foe flat-footed).
Rillion 04-11-06, 11:09 PM	my current mobilty 'roguish' fighter is currently scout1/ranger1. I'm probably going to go Scout4/Ranger2 maybe fighter or swashbuckler1, then into dervish. Might pick up another level of scout for more skirmish. The total dice to damage isn't much but with imp two weapon fighting and getting the bab to 6 you can end up with 4 attacks (5 if hasted) that will all qualify for the skirmish during the dervish dance and you do not need to worry about flank or flat-footed as you would with the rogue. makes for a nice light infantry while still getting the trap finding & disarming covered for the party. Now I just need to play this character more since it is my 4th...
MadKaugh 04-12-06, 09:11 PM	In actual play it always seemed like the spring attack/dodge/mobility guys were pretty ineffective. Maybe I just haven't run into an effective build for one yet, but it always seems like they were just doing 3 or 4 points of damge WHEN they managed to hit something. An 18 Dex, 14 Con halfling is going to be on par with the tanks for armor class, and will have good hit points as well. Chain shirt and buckler gets you AC 20 before any enhancements. Here is my first suggestion, which does not use the scout class to avoid stacking a pair of 3/4 BAB classes in your early career. Level 1. Rogue. Weapon focus rapier. Level 2. Swashbucler. comes with free Weapon finesse. Level 3. Rogue TWF if you want it, I'd personally rather take combat expertise. Go back and forth with Rogue and swashbuckler until you find a prestige class you like. Swashbuckler gets you an INT bonus on damage around 3rd level. TWF isn't exactly the best combo to go along with skirmish or spring attack, since you can't do both at once. Spring attack/dodge/mobility is feat costly. Rogues are feat poor. ... on par with tanks - especially if you are small. But you won't do as much damage. I like chain shirt, then mithril chain shirt. Some folks swear by leather at the low end. Mithril breatsplate is tempting at the high end. Highly agree, do not mix scout and rogue; do either or. I tried it, hated it. Too many benefits overlap. You should focus on being good at either sneak attack or skirmish, not mediocre at both. Rogue at first level for the skills (scout if you prefer, but stick with scout, then), then Swashbuckler at second for Weapon Finnesse. I aim for ten levels of Rogue interspersed. Fighter is good for feats. Barbarian gives your little guy some needed speed. Ranger dovetails nicely, too. I like to be able to shoot with my rogue so that I can hang back from undead and constructs. MadKaugh
clik_ml 04-13-06, 02:53 AM	I just started up a rogue for Verbobonc's new plot lines. My build looks eerily similar to Paige's at the onset. I think we share similar min/max philsophies. Deep Halfling Rogue Skill sets: trap checker, socialite, and spot/listen Stats: 10/16/14/14/8/14 (would have gone 18 dex, but wanted the charisma for a variety of uses) 1 Rog (Imp Init) 1 Swash (W Fin) 2 Rog (TWF) 1 Marshal (motivate dex) 2 Rog 2 Pal X Rog Future feat options likely to be Imp Buckler Defense, Leadership (mostly to make higher APL tables easier to form), and I'm waffling on anything else currently. I'm runnin around with a nice AC for low levels, I usually get the drop for initiative and it is only gonna get better for me. I'll have decent saves and damage output. The paladin bit is optional but I like it. I currently carry much alchemists fire and multilpe clw potions and harbor a fair bit of disdain for people who don't at APL 2 (grrr, don't ask). Unless you are planning on hiding in plain sight or somesuch sniping craziness, then avoid stealth skills at all cost. Generally the only way to get the entire party to hide is via spells, and then you have just wasted the skills anyway.
Karlindel 04-19-06, 04:56 PM	I would drop the mobility fighter rogue idea. I've seen it in action and been unimpressed. It costs a lot of feats and isn't worth it. Scout is only really useful as an archer, and being an archer makes it hard to get sneak attack damage in. Personally, I recommend going with a Dwarven rogue with a bit of Shadowdancer for Hide in Plain Sight. Darkvision is very useful, as carrying a light prevents you from scouting ahead, and the bonus to con and saves against spells will come in handy in a lot of fights. Stonecunning will also sometimes help when you need to find a trap.
Necrochaos 05-08-06, 09:02 PM	Since I didn't have the books on hand when I suggested the build, I'd overlooked that Nightsong Enforcer needs Improved Init. Thus, I'd recommend the following: Human Scout4/Rog3/Shadowdancer1/Dread Commando5/Nightsong Enforcer2 Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8 1-Scout; Dodge, Mobility 2-Scout 3-Rogue; Improved Init 4-Rogue; Bump to Dex 5-Rogue 6-Scout; Combat Reflexes 7-Scout; Spring Attack 8-Shadowdancer 9-Dread Commando; Staggering Strike 10-Dread Commando 11-Dread Commando 12-Dread Commando; Power Attack 13-Dread Commando 14-Nightsong Enforcer 15-Nightsong Enforcer Unfortunately, both Dread Commando and Nightsong Enforcer are Limited classes. If you don't get access to them, you're probably best off continuing as a straight Rogue or taking a level of Ranger and switching to Highland Stalker. Scout gets 8+INT skill points, same as a Rogue, but gets a d8 hit die. That's why it's best to go Scout first. You get Evasion as Rogue 2 by 4th level when you might first expect Fireballs. Dread Commando, if you haven't seen it, gives your entire party an initiative bonus equal to your Dread Commando class level. It also gives full BAB and Sudden Strike +3d6 over 5 levels (Sudden Strike: extra dice of damage when you catch your foe flat-footed). My biggest question, how do you get access to Dread Commando? I don't see it listed in the new LGCS which would make it restricted correct?
Namarus 05-08-06, 09:14 PM	My biggest question, how do you get access to Dread Commando? I don't see it listed in the new LGCS which would make it restricted correct? If it is not listed, and is in a campaign approved book, it would make it limited.
Lomiat 05-09-06, 04:21 PM	My biggest question, how do you get access to Dread Commando? I don't see it listed in the new LGCS which would make it restricted correct? Currently, it's limited. You'd have to get it on an AR or through a metaorg. As it's a fairly woodsy, scouty sort of thing, any really woodsy, scouty organizations *might* have it. You might want to check the metaorgs listed online. Bear in mind, too, that some of them have not yet been posted; some updates are still being finalized.
thorinXXX 05-09-06, 05:02 PM	Here is a build that I have had a lot of fun with. He was an early build before I realized how little RP there is in the RPGA. Swashbuckler before they allowed the class. :D Human ST 12 DX 15 CN 10 IN 14 WI 10 CH 14 1) Rog 1, Dodge, Mobility, 1D6 Sneak Attack 2) Ftr 1, Weapon Finesse 3) Rog 2, Evasion, Combat Expertise 4) Ftr 2, Improved Trip, (+1 DX) 5) Wiz 1, (diviner) Scribe Scroll- Snake Familiar 6) Rog 3, Spring Attack 2D6 Sneak Attack 7) Rog 4, Uncanny Dodge 8) TA 1, Kip Up, Fast Move (+1 ST) 9) TA 2, Elusive Target, ? 10) TA 3, Prone Fighting? 11) TA 4, Movement Mastery 12) Wiz 2, Practiced Spell Caster (+1 ST) 13) Wiz 3 Maxed skills: Bluff, Disable Device, Search, Tumble Other High skills: Climb, Jump, Balance, Spellcraft
Necrochaos 05-09-06, 08:51 PM	What is TA?
thorinXXX 05-10-06, 03:45 PM	What is TA? Thief Acrobat
zoinks69 05-15-06, 04:57 AM	Skills are nice, although if you just want to pick locks/find traps, etc, you don't need to do too much work in my opinion if you suck it up and take Rogue at level one. I'd go with 2 levels of rogue (for evasion), maybe 3 if you can pull off sneak damage often (chances definitely decrease as you go up in level). Max out the few roguey skills when you take rogue levels, otherwise concentrate on whatever you've made important (as other have posted -- be an archer, be twf guy, be AC guy (expertise, etc), be trickster, whatever you want. I've currently got a Suel Rogue 1 / Barb 1 / Fighter 1 (he just leveled, deciding between either Rogue 2 or Fighter 2). Idea was to have a support character (search, traps, locks, etc) that can move around the battlefield (via tumble and 40' movement) and dish damage with his Falchion w/Power Attack (eventually taking improved crit, possibly power crit as well) and is survivable (will end up with Holy Lib levels and Elusive Target though it's pushed back to level 9, he may take Spring Attack if he's got feats to spare). Extra Rage makes up for his 16 str and -1 bab (probably the only point he will give up). He can tumble into flank (well, most of the time) and the big crit range helps out. Plus he will keep the "important" roguey skills (search, open lock, disable device) maxed when he takes rogue levels. Current weaknesses are HP (it's early in his career, con bumps will come soon enough, but raging all the time helps), AC (again, tough to get that bumped up with little money, will hopefully end up with a mithril breastplate, ring of prot, etc) and Will saves (the worst of which will be negated with Lib level 3, PC level 8 or 9). Just another idea for you.
Necrochaos 05-27-06, 08:48 PM	My biggest question, how do you get access to Dread Commando? I don't see it listed in the new LGCS which would make it restricted correct? Can you get this through special missions with triads? I know people have gotten access to Wild Mage that way.
Lomiat 05-27-06, 11:09 PM	Prestige Class access is one of the things Triads are allowed to give out as special mission rewards. Whether or not your Triad will hand out access to a specific class, however, is entirely up to them.
ithardin 05-29-06, 02:15 PM	It is great to see all the different ideas, etc here on the thread, so I thought I would add mine. My main PC is currently a Rogue5/Swashbuckler1: Suloise Human STR:10 DEX:15 CON:10 INT:16 WIS:14 CHA:10 Rogue1: Toughness & Iron Will Swash1: Weapon finesse Rogue2: Nimble Fingers Rogue3: Rogue4: Rogue5:3d6 sneak attack, Skill focus (disable device) He is currently (with equipment) at +19 on disable device and +15 on open lock. He has a high UMD, search, hide/move silent (which I will agree with Paige is not being used anywhere near as much as I thought it would). His will save is +5 (he hasn't failed an important one yet...*fingers crossed*), and when flanking has a double digit "to hit" modifier. The best part is hit points. He has gotten to single digits a few times, and that extra 3 from Toughness has saved his bacon. I will be taking improved toughness somewhere in the build because of the positive results of toughness so far. He has had to stand in as the fighter of more then one table when either the main fighter got too cocky and was smacked about by the baddies, and with his mithral chain shirt, fighting defensively, etc he has been able to hold the baddies off (nothing more refreshing to a rogue then when the orc barbarian rage wears off...) while the party healer does just that. Survivability...that's the key. And so far my boy has done a pretty good job of it. My other rogue tips: equipment, equipment, equipment. Rogues are versatile for a reason...exploit that bad boy.