Natural Bond - Feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Natural Bond - Feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Scheuerman
12-08-05, 04:47 AM Good morning,

I just wanted to ask how one goes about getting the feat 'Natural Bond', noted in the Complete Adventurer. It is a limited access feat; my understanding is that in order to gain feats in that category I need to gain access via a campaign.

If that is true, can someone please tell me what campaign?

Thanks!
Scheuerman
Simpi
12-08-05, 05:22 AM If that is true, can someone please tell me what campaign?

Thanks!
Scheuerman

You mean campaign documentation, in others words, adventure record.

S.H, the guy from Naerie
qstor
12-08-05, 09:16 AM Some regional druid metaorgs might offer the feat. Or are feats stripped from the new meta-org guidelines?

thanks

Miike
redgamer
12-08-05, 09:20 AM Each *Region* can offer about 6 (not sure the exact number) feats through its metaorgs. So there is a small chance its available for purchase from metaorgs. There are a few regions with mods that give access to limited feats- often of your choice. So keep playing and good luck.
JohnduBois
12-08-05, 10:00 AM You can also request access to Limited feats and prestige classes via special mission through your triad.
Namarus
12-08-05, 11:06 AM In all honesty I don't see what is over powered in the feat that it needs to be limited in access.
Simpi
12-08-05, 12:42 PM In all honesty I don't see what is over powered in the feat that it needs to be limited in access.

Perhaps the fact that it makes Beastmaster prestige class almost worthless?

Redgamer: While meta-orgs can offer the access, no feats will be available as it is but must be earned in the adventure. For example, it there could AR entry 'Favor of the army: This grants access to Exercises of Arnd feat. This favor is only available to members of Army meta-organisation'.

This prevents people from cherry picking meta-orgs outside their home region as they would actually need to go to that region to get the access.

S.H, the guy from Naerie
Namarus
12-08-05, 01:15 PM Perhaps the fact that it makes Beastmaster prestige class almost worthless?

I disagree. The Beastmaster class is pretty worthless as it stands. Only useful for maybe a 1 level dip at best.

Also the natural bond only increases the effective level for purposes of pet advancement, such as HD etc.. It does not apply like the Beastmaster class ability to everything.
Simpi
12-08-05, 03:32 PM I disagree. The Beastmaster class is pretty worthless as it stands. Only useful for maybe a 1 level dip at best.

Exactly. With Natural bond you would not even need to do that plus I personally believe that the feat is strong, having seen few examples of NPC rangers with that feat.

S.H, the guy from Naerie
Scheuerman
12-08-05, 07:39 PM Thank you all, for this information. It is very helpful. :D
mendahu
12-09-05, 03:08 AM While meta-orgs can offer the access, no feats will be available as it is but must be earned in the adventure. For example, it there could AR entry 'Favor of the army: This grants access to Exercises of Arnd feat. This favor is only available to members of Army meta-organisation'.

This prevents people from cherry picking meta-orgs outside their home region as they would actually need to go to that region to get the access.

S.H, the guy from Naerie

I don't believe this is entirely accurate. I just finished writing three meta-orgs for the new region of Zeif, and as far as I understand the meta-orgs do grant access to the limited feats as per usual (though of course we are limited to a regional selection of 8 feats and 8 prestige classes). Most of the new meta-orgs require the PCs be of the particular home region now, however (it was "strongly" encouraged by standards of the new meta-org guidelines).

The access type you're talking about (finding stuff on ARs which only metaorg members get) is applied to magic items now. You're going to all start seeing starred item access on ARs now, with a note saying all starred items are only accessible by x meta-org.

-Jake Robins
Edmonton, AB
Madfox11
12-09-05, 03:30 AM Perhaps the fact that it makes Beastmaster prestige class almost worthless?

Considering I have seen Triad members come up with rediculous power builds with this feat and the Beast Master Prestige class (allowing druids to get an animal as if 4 level HIGHER then their total level) I would not be too quick to come to this conclusion. Personally I have never taken a good look at the prestige class so I am not able to make any decent comments on it.

Just note though that the "limited" feats are not (or at least should not) be limeted because they are too powerful. Those feats end up on the restricted list. They tend to be limited because of their restricted use, or because they depict a certain speciality that only those with special training should have access to. I am not privy to the reasoning behind why every single feat is placed in which category so there might be other reasons as well ;)
JohnduBois
12-09-05, 04:18 AM Eh? The only combination with this and Beastmaster is that it allows your SECOND animal companion to be as though your effective druid level is three levels higher. Due to the fact that the feat specificially says it cannot make your druid level higher than your character level, it only works on the Beastmaster's first companion if the character is a ranger and multiclassed. The build that allows the character to have a companion as though their druid level is three (I don't know how to do four) levels higher than their character level? That's just straight druid/beastmaster...
boolean
12-10-05, 10:41 PM Part of the problem with Natural Bond is that the wording of the feat is unclear about how it interacts with a druid's ability to take a more powerful animal by reducing his effective level.

For example, a 7th level druid can choose a brown bear as an animal companion, by taking a -6 penalty to his druid level, for purposes of determining the companion’s characteristics and special abilities.

The way Natural Bond is worded, this allows the example druid to have a brown bear companion, with bonus HD etc. as a 4th level druid.

The worst case scenario is of course combining Beastmaster with Natural Bond. A druid 5/beastmaster 1 has the animal companion of a druid 9. They choose a dire wolf, so they count as a druid 3 for determining extra HD and special abilities. Adding natural bond allows them to be considered a druid 6 (and look, their effective druid level hasn't exceeded their character level).

10 hit dice dire wolf/brown bear companions at APL6?
redgamer
12-11-05, 12:50 AM Simpi:
I am quite certain Keoland metaorgs offer feats. You can download the metaorg document from their yahoo group. Speaking to one of their metaorg PoC the reason why they offered the same feats is because the new rules (must be followed by Jan 1 2006) allow a set number of feat per region.
Simpi
12-11-05, 05:19 AM Simpi:
I am quite certain Keoland metaorgs offer feats. You can download the metaorg document from their yahoo group. Speaking to one of their metaorg PoC the reason why they offered the same feats is because the new rules (must be followed by Jan 1 2006) allow a set number of feat per region.

Well, I was tasked with building some of our MOs and I only have rule document 1.0. If it was changed further than that, I don't know, but there is a paragraph there which clearly says that access to all feats/PrCs comes through ARs. I'm quite sure that does not mean MO document, even it's made to look like AR.

After all, if it did, what's the point of new MO rules as peole can go and cherry pick things as they want, like they did before.

S.H, the guy from Naerie
JamesMaissen
12-11-05, 09:10 AM Well, I was tasked with building some of our MOs and I only have rule document 1.0. If it was changed further than that, I don't know, but there is a paragraph there which clearly says that access to all feats/PrCs comes through ARs. I'm quite sure that does not mean MO document, even it's made to look like AR.

After all, if it did, what's the point of new MO rules as peole can go and cherry pick things as they want, like they did before.

S.H, the guy from Naerie

I never quite understood this line of thinking on 'Cherry Picking'.

I mean limited feats/spells/etc were not meant to be 'unavailable' but rather just something that you had to go out of your way to find (or stumble upon) so what really is the problem? Ostensibly if someone from Tusmit can get feat X for cost Y then it should be just as fair that another person in the Yeomanry can also get feat X by paying cost Y.

In game it's a simple matter of say my wizard spending time learning from this wizard school or another to pick up a special spell or metamagic learning. I spend my resources just like everyone else. Likewise if my cleric worships a diety I don't see that his joining a temple should be based on what land he calls home.. especially if that homeland doesn't have such a temple.

Out of game the feats/abilities are limited and not restricted so it's not like the fact that they should be unavailable to PCs, so where's the harm? If there is a harm, should they be given out at all??

It seems to me that it boils down to two things: first there are some limited things that some people wished were restricted instead and second that some people don't want whatever 'other regions' allow to be 'common' to be 'common' in thier region.

The former is a problem that should be addressed and dealt with on a circle level as it's thier perview on what is in the campaign and what is out of it. While the later is a problem between triads and probably should be best left to be mediated by the circle as to what our global campaign should be geared towards in general.

But that's just the impression that I get on it,

James Maissen
Simpi
12-11-05, 09:59 AM I'm not going to comment further on 'should it be available or not'* but I do praise the Keoland book for actually requiring people to have played a regional module first before they can actually join MOs.

We are going to use similiar practice in our region.

S.H, the guy from Naerie

* as opinions in the matter are usually quite established and hard to change.
JohnduBois
12-11-05, 10:18 AM Part of the reason that the availability of Limited feats and PrC's changes from region to region is due to the flavor the region's Triad wants to employ. I know that my Triad has already declined a special mission request and is thinking hard about another exclusively for that reason.
redgamer
12-11-05, 12:11 PM I thought most/all metaorgs had that requirement. If they don't they certaintly should. As to the difference in feat access clearly you and the person I talked to read a different set of rules. Maybe Keoland metaorgs will change in a month. Maybe someone forgot you forward the updated rules to you. I'll mention the discrepency between you two if I talk to him again.
JosephKell
12-15-05, 09:08 PM Part of the problem with Natural Bond is that the wording of the feat is unclear about how it interacts with a druid's ability to take a more powerful animal by reducing his effective level.

For example, a 7th level druid can choose a brown bear as an animal companion, by taking a -6 penalty to his druid level, for purposes of determining the companion’s characteristics and special abilities.

The way Natural Bond is worded, this allows the example druid to have a brown bear companion, with bonus HD etc. as a 4th level druid.

The worst case scenario is of course combining Beastmaster with Natural Bond. A druid 5/beastmaster 1 has the animal companion of a druid 9. They choose a dire wolf, so they count as a druid 3 for determining extra HD and special abilities. Adding natural bond allows them to be considered a druid 6 (and look, their effective druid level hasn't exceeded their character level).

10 hit dice dire wolf/brown bear companions at APL6?And THAT is the reason.

Honestly, I expect Beastmaster to be errataed to say that the total druid levels before any reductions due to type of animal are factored in can't exceed your Hit Dice.

With that in place, I can seen Natural Bond being made Core Access as the potential for abuse is removed.

Granted, this also means that a 6 Hit Die mount is only 2 feats (Skill Focus [Handle Animal] and Natural Bond) and 12 skill points (8 handle animal, 4 survival). Definately worth it in my opinion (since it can be replaced if it dies).
TimRat
12-16-05, 04:01 PM Simpi check the latest version of the meta-org document as it was changed a bit. it was changed quite some time ago (i haven't really touched it for a few months)

i think most will like the new changes. also for limited feats and such some of the reason also is to hold back some things. also for flavor in some regions.
Simpi
12-16-05, 04:17 PM Simpi check the latest version of the meta-org document as it was changed a bit. it was changed quite some time ago (i haven't really touched it for a few months)

i think most will like the new changes. also for limited feats and such some of the reason also is to hold back some things. also for flavor in some regions.

I need to ask Triad then if 1.10 is not the latest version...

S.H, the guy from Naerie
SteveMND
12-16-05, 10:43 PM "The worst case scenario is of course combining Beastmaster with Natural Bond. A druid 5/beastmaster 1 has the animal companion of a druid 9. They choose a dire wolf, so they count as a druid 3 for determining extra HD and special abilities. Adding natural bond allows them to be considered a druid 6 (and look, their effective druid level hasn't exceeded their character level)."

With all due respect, I think you're applying that all wrong. If you have Natural Bond, you'd apply it before choosing your animal companion -- i.e., your example druid5/beastmaster1 would have +3 to his effective druid level for determining their effective druid level. A PC with the natural bond feat wouldn't be able to utilize it in that case because he wouldn't be able to exceed his Hit Dice, i.e., 6. He's already over that, so it would not do him any good.

You can't add something to the PC's effective druid level once (for example, the beastmaster bonus) and then take an animal companion, and then add a second modifier onto that effective druid level again after making other calculations to it. You'd add them all up to begin with, and THEN choose a higher-level animal companion if you want.

Yes, the whole deal with effective druid elvbels and such is poorly worded, but I think your method of figuring out the EDL is a little off, and lends itself to the kind of abuse you are concerned about.
Namarus
12-17-05, 12:59 PM With all due respect, I think you're applying that all wrong. If you have Natural Bond, you'd apply it before choosing your animal companion -- i.e., your example druid5/beastmaster1 would have +3 to his effective druid level for determining their effective druid level. A PC with the natural bond feat wouldn't be able to utilize it in that case because he wouldn't be able to exceed his Hit Dice, i.e., 6. He's already over that, so it would not do him any good.

You can't add something to the PC's effective druid level once (for example, the beastmaster bonus) and then take an animal companion, and then add a second modifier onto that effective druid level again after making other calculations to it. You'd add them all up to begin with, and THEN choose a higher-level animal companion if you want.

Yes, the whole deal with effective druid elvbels and such is poorly worded, but I think your method of figuring out the EDL is a little off, and lends itself to the kind of abuse you are concerned about.

Natural bond cannot be used to determine the actual pet. It can only be used to pet advancement. It says so on the feat. Used for determining the advancement for HD etc...
zigspatty
12-17-05, 09:55 PM Natural bond cannot be used to determine the actual pet. It can only be used to pet advancement. It says so on the feat. Used for determining the advancement for HD etc...

Beastmasters gain an animal companion that is equal to their beastmaster level +3, which explicitly stacks with any orthe classes which grant an animal companion. CV gives the example of a druid5/beastmaster2 which would be treated as a druid10 to determine her companion's statistics as well as her potential animal companion. The druid5/beastmaster2 could choose polar bear companion (druid level - 3) with the same special abilities as the companion of a level 1 druid (1 extra trick, link, and share spells). His effective druid level has not been reduced to level 1! It's still effectively 10, because her companion's statistics are figured at her effective druid level - 9. The bear simply requires 9 of those effective levels; it does not actually reduce the druid's effective level.

Taking the natural bond feat would not help her, because "this bonus can never make your effective druid level exceed your character level". A polar bear with +2 HD, +2 Nat'l armor, +1 str/dex, 2 bonus tricks, link, share spell, and evasion would require an effective druid level of 13, which is higher than her character level of 7.

Like the Practiced Spellcaster feat, Natural bond is really only helpful to multiclassed characters, or characters with slowed progression in the ability (like rangers whose effective level is half their ranger level for both spells and companions.) A straight druid could recieve no benefit. A druid with up to 3 levels in other classes would find it useful. A ranger would find it helpful.

And yes, the actual wording sounds like Natural Bond might not allow you to choose a companion from the higher level charts. But the parenthetical explanation in Beastmaster's companion ability effecting which alternative companions can be chosen leads many to believe that is one of the "other bonuses" granted by the feat. The wording could definitely use some clarification.

Patty
JohnduBois
12-18-05, 10:17 AM The Natural Bond feat is useful to Beastmasters in one way - the SECOND animal companion could be improved by its benefit.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Scheuerman 12-08-05, 04:47 AM	Good morning, I just wanted to ask how one goes about getting the feat 'Natural Bond', noted in the Complete Adventurer. It is a limited access feat; my understanding is that in order to gain feats in that category I need to gain access via a campaign. If that is true, can someone please tell me what campaign? Thanks! Scheuerman
Simpi 12-08-05, 05:22 AM	If that is true, can someone please tell me what campaign? Thanks! Scheuerman You mean campaign documentation, in others words, adventure record. S.H, the guy from Naerie
qstor 12-08-05, 09:16 AM	Some regional druid metaorgs might offer the feat. Or are feats stripped from the new meta-org guidelines? thanks Miike
redgamer 12-08-05, 09:20 AM	Each Region can offer about 6 (not sure the exact number) feats through its metaorgs. So there is a small chance its available for purchase from metaorgs. There are a few regions with mods that give access to limited feats- often of your choice. So keep playing and good luck.
JohnduBois 12-08-05, 10:00 AM	You can also request access to Limited feats and prestige classes via special mission through your triad.
Namarus 12-08-05, 11:06 AM	In all honesty I don't see what is over powered in the feat that it needs to be limited in access.
Simpi 12-08-05, 12:42 PM	In all honesty I don't see what is over powered in the feat that it needs to be limited in access. Perhaps the fact that it makes Beastmaster prestige class almost worthless? Redgamer: While meta-orgs can offer the access, no feats will be available as it is but must be earned in the adventure. For example, it there could AR entry 'Favor of the army: This grants access to Exercises of Arnd feat. This favor is only available to members of Army meta-organisation'. This prevents people from cherry picking meta-orgs outside their home region as they would actually need to go to that region to get the access. S.H, the guy from Naerie
Namarus 12-08-05, 01:15 PM	Perhaps the fact that it makes Beastmaster prestige class almost worthless? I disagree. The Beastmaster class is pretty worthless as it stands. Only useful for maybe a 1 level dip at best. Also the natural bond only increases the effective level for purposes of pet advancement, such as HD etc.. It does not apply like the Beastmaster class ability to everything.
Simpi 12-08-05, 03:32 PM	I disagree. The Beastmaster class is pretty worthless as it stands. Only useful for maybe a 1 level dip at best. Exactly. With Natural bond you would not even need to do that plus I personally believe that the feat is strong, having seen few examples of NPC rangers with that feat. S.H, the guy from Naerie
Scheuerman 12-08-05, 07:39 PM	Thank you all, for this information. It is very helpful. :D
mendahu 12-09-05, 03:08 AM	While meta-orgs can offer the access, no feats will be available as it is but must be earned in the adventure. For example, it there could AR entry 'Favor of the army: This grants access to Exercises of Arnd feat. This favor is only available to members of Army meta-organisation'. This prevents people from cherry picking meta-orgs outside their home region as they would actually need to go to that region to get the access. S.H, the guy from Naerie I don't believe this is entirely accurate. I just finished writing three meta-orgs for the new region of Zeif, and as far as I understand the meta-orgs do grant access to the limited feats as per usual (though of course we are limited to a regional selection of 8 feats and 8 prestige classes). Most of the new meta-orgs require the PCs be of the particular home region now, however (it was "strongly" encouraged by standards of the new meta-org guidelines). The access type you're talking about (finding stuff on ARs which only metaorg members get) is applied to magic items now. You're going to all start seeing starred item access on ARs now, with a note saying all starred items are only accessible by x meta-org. -Jake Robins Edmonton, AB
Madfox11 12-09-05, 03:30 AM	Perhaps the fact that it makes Beastmaster prestige class almost worthless? Considering I have seen Triad members come up with rediculous power builds with this feat and the Beast Master Prestige class (allowing druids to get an animal as if 4 level HIGHER then their total level) I would not be too quick to come to this conclusion. Personally I have never taken a good look at the prestige class so I am not able to make any decent comments on it. Just note though that the "limited" feats are not (or at least should not) be limeted because they are too powerful. Those feats end up on the restricted list. They tend to be limited because of their restricted use, or because they depict a certain speciality that only those with special training should have access to. I am not privy to the reasoning behind why every single feat is placed in which category so there might be other reasons as well ;)
JohnduBois 12-09-05, 04:18 AM	Eh? The only combination with this and Beastmaster is that it allows your SECOND animal companion to be as though your effective druid level is three levels higher. Due to the fact that the feat specificially says it cannot make your druid level higher than your character level, it only works on the Beastmaster's first companion if the character is a ranger and multiclassed. The build that allows the character to have a companion as though their druid level is three (I don't know how to do four) levels higher than their character level? That's just straight druid/beastmaster...
boolean 12-10-05, 10:41 PM	Part of the problem with Natural Bond is that the wording of the feat is unclear about how it interacts with a druid's ability to take a more powerful animal by reducing his effective level. For example, a 7th level druid can choose a brown bear as an animal companion, by taking a -6 penalty to his druid level, for purposes of determining the companion’s characteristics and special abilities. The way Natural Bond is worded, this allows the example druid to have a brown bear companion, with bonus HD etc. as a 4th level druid. The worst case scenario is of course combining Beastmaster with Natural Bond. A druid 5/beastmaster 1 has the animal companion of a druid 9. They choose a dire wolf, so they count as a druid 3 for determining extra HD and special abilities. Adding natural bond allows them to be considered a druid 6 (and look, their effective druid level hasn't exceeded their character level). 10 hit dice dire wolf/brown bear companions at APL6?
redgamer 12-11-05, 12:50 AM	Simpi: I am quite certain Keoland metaorgs offer feats. You can download the metaorg document from their yahoo group. Speaking to one of their metaorg PoC the reason why they offered the same feats is because the new rules (must be followed by Jan 1 2006) allow a set number of feat per region.
Simpi 12-11-05, 05:19 AM	Simpi: I am quite certain Keoland metaorgs offer feats. You can download the metaorg document from their yahoo group. Speaking to one of their metaorg PoC the reason why they offered the same feats is because the new rules (must be followed by Jan 1 2006) allow a set number of feat per region. Well, I was tasked with building some of our MOs and I only have rule document 1.0. If it was changed further than that, I don't know, but there is a paragraph there which clearly says that access to all feats/PrCs comes through ARs. I'm quite sure that does not mean MO document, even it's made to look like AR. After all, if it did, what's the point of new MO rules as peole can go and cherry pick things as they want, like they did before. S.H, the guy from Naerie
JamesMaissen 12-11-05, 09:10 AM	Well, I was tasked with building some of our MOs and I only have rule document 1.0. If it was changed further than that, I don't know, but there is a paragraph there which clearly says that access to all feats/PrCs comes through ARs. I'm quite sure that does not mean MO document, even it's made to look like AR. After all, if it did, what's the point of new MO rules as peole can go and cherry pick things as they want, like they did before. S.H, the guy from Naerie I never quite understood this line of thinking on 'Cherry Picking'. I mean limited feats/spells/etc were not meant to be 'unavailable' but rather just something that you had to go out of your way to find (or stumble upon) so what really is the problem? Ostensibly if someone from Tusmit can get feat X for cost Y then it should be just as fair that another person in the Yeomanry can also get feat X by paying cost Y. In game it's a simple matter of say my wizard spending time learning from this wizard school or another to pick up a special spell or metamagic learning. I spend my resources just like everyone else. Likewise if my cleric worships a diety I don't see that his joining a temple should be based on what land he calls home.. especially if that homeland doesn't have such a temple. Out of game the feats/abilities are limited and not restricted so it's not like the fact that they should be unavailable to PCs, so where's the harm? If there is a harm, should they be given out at all?? It seems to me that it boils down to two things: first there are some limited things that some people wished were restricted instead and second that some people don't want whatever 'other regions' allow to be 'common' to be 'common' in thier region. The former is a problem that should be addressed and dealt with on a circle level as it's thier perview on what is in the campaign and what is out of it. While the later is a problem between triads and probably should be best left to be mediated by the circle as to what our global campaign should be geared towards in general. But that's just the impression that I get on it, James Maissen
Simpi 12-11-05, 09:59 AM	I'm not going to comment further on 'should it be available or not'* but I do praise the Keoland book for actually requiring people to have played a regional module first before they can actually join MOs. We are going to use similiar practice in our region. S.H, the guy from Naerie * as opinions in the matter are usually quite established and hard to change.
JohnduBois 12-11-05, 10:18 AM	Part of the reason that the availability of Limited feats and PrC's changes from region to region is due to the flavor the region's Triad wants to employ. I know that my Triad has already declined a special mission request and is thinking hard about another exclusively for that reason.
redgamer 12-11-05, 12:11 PM	I thought most/all metaorgs had that requirement. If they don't they certaintly should. As to the difference in feat access clearly you and the person I talked to read a different set of rules. Maybe Keoland metaorgs will change in a month. Maybe someone forgot you forward the updated rules to you. I'll mention the discrepency between you two if I talk to him again.
JosephKell 12-15-05, 09:08 PM	Part of the problem with Natural Bond is that the wording of the feat is unclear about how it interacts with a druid's ability to take a more powerful animal by reducing his effective level. For example, a 7th level druid can choose a brown bear as an animal companion, by taking a -6 penalty to his druid level, for purposes of determining the companion’s characteristics and special abilities. The way Natural Bond is worded, this allows the example druid to have a brown bear companion, with bonus HD etc. as a 4th level druid. The worst case scenario is of course combining Beastmaster with Natural Bond. A druid 5/beastmaster 1 has the animal companion of a druid 9. They choose a dire wolf, so they count as a druid 3 for determining extra HD and special abilities. Adding natural bond allows them to be considered a druid 6 (and look, their effective druid level hasn't exceeded their character level). 10 hit dice dire wolf/brown bear companions at APL6?And THAT is the reason. Honestly, I expect Beastmaster to be errataed to say that the total druid levels before any reductions due to type of animal are factored in can't exceed your Hit Dice. With that in place, I can seen Natural Bond being made Core Access as the potential for abuse is removed. Granted, this also means that a 6 Hit Die mount is only 2 feats (Skill Focus [Handle Animal] and Natural Bond) and 12 skill points (8 handle animal, 4 survival). Definately worth it in my opinion (since it can be replaced if it dies).
TimRat 12-16-05, 04:01 PM	Simpi check the latest version of the meta-org document as it was changed a bit. it was changed quite some time ago (i haven't really touched it for a few months) i think most will like the new changes. also for limited feats and such some of the reason also is to hold back some things. also for flavor in some regions.
Simpi 12-16-05, 04:17 PM	Simpi check the latest version of the meta-org document as it was changed a bit. it was changed quite some time ago (i haven't really touched it for a few months) i think most will like the new changes. also for limited feats and such some of the reason also is to hold back some things. also for flavor in some regions. I need to ask Triad then if 1.10 is not the latest version... S.H, the guy from Naerie
SteveMND 12-16-05, 10:43 PM	"The worst case scenario is of course combining Beastmaster with Natural Bond. A druid 5/beastmaster 1 has the animal companion of a druid 9. They choose a dire wolf, so they count as a druid 3 for determining extra HD and special abilities. Adding natural bond allows them to be considered a druid 6 (and look, their effective druid level hasn't exceeded their character level)." With all due respect, I think you're applying that all wrong. If you have Natural Bond, you'd apply it before choosing your animal companion -- i.e., your example druid5/beastmaster1 would have +3 to his effective druid level for determining their effective druid level. A PC with the natural bond feat wouldn't be able to utilize it in that case because he wouldn't be able to exceed his Hit Dice, i.e., 6. He's already over that, so it would not do him any good. You can't add something to the PC's effective druid level once (for example, the beastmaster bonus) and then take an animal companion, and then add a second modifier onto that effective druid level again after making other calculations to it. You'd add them all up to begin with, and THEN choose a higher-level animal companion if you want. Yes, the whole deal with effective druid elvbels and such is poorly worded, but I think your method of figuring out the EDL is a little off, and lends itself to the kind of abuse you are concerned about.
Namarus 12-17-05, 12:59 PM	With all due respect, I think you're applying that all wrong. If you have Natural Bond, you'd apply it before choosing your animal companion -- i.e., your example druid5/beastmaster1 would have +3 to his effective druid level for determining their effective druid level. A PC with the natural bond feat wouldn't be able to utilize it in that case because he wouldn't be able to exceed his Hit Dice, i.e., 6. He's already over that, so it would not do him any good. You can't add something to the PC's effective druid level once (for example, the beastmaster bonus) and then take an animal companion, and then add a second modifier onto that effective druid level again after making other calculations to it. You'd add them all up to begin with, and THEN choose a higher-level animal companion if you want. Yes, the whole deal with effective druid elvbels and such is poorly worded, but I think your method of figuring out the EDL is a little off, and lends itself to the kind of abuse you are concerned about. Natural bond cannot be used to determine the actual pet. It can only be used to pet advancement. It says so on the feat. Used for determining the advancement for HD etc...
zigspatty 12-17-05, 09:55 PM	Natural bond cannot be used to determine the actual pet. It can only be used to pet advancement. It says so on the feat. Used for determining the advancement for HD etc... Beastmasters gain an animal companion that is equal to their beastmaster level +3, which explicitly stacks with any orthe classes which grant an animal companion. CV gives the example of a druid5/beastmaster2 which would be treated as a druid10 to determine her companion's statistics as well as her potential animal companion. The druid5/beastmaster2 could choose polar bear companion (druid level - 3) with the same special abilities as the companion of a level 1 druid (1 extra trick, link, and share spells). His effective druid level has not been reduced to level 1! It's still effectively 10, because her companion's statistics are figured at her effective druid level - 9. The bear simply requires 9 of those effective levels; it does not actually reduce the druid's effective level. Taking the natural bond feat would not help her, because "this bonus can never make your effective druid level exceed your character level". A polar bear with +2 HD, +2 Nat'l armor, +1 str/dex, 2 bonus tricks, link, share spell, and evasion would require an effective druid level of 13, which is higher than her character level of 7. Like the Practiced Spellcaster feat, Natural bond is really only helpful to multiclassed characters, or characters with slowed progression in the ability (like rangers whose effective level is half their ranger level for both spells and companions.) A straight druid could recieve no benefit. A druid with up to 3 levels in other classes would find it useful. A ranger would find it helpful. And yes, the actual wording sounds like Natural Bond might not allow you to choose a companion from the higher level charts. But the parenthetical explanation in Beastmaster's companion ability effecting which alternative companions can be chosen leads many to believe that is one of the "other bonuses" granted by the feat. The wording could definitely use some clarification. Patty
JohnduBois 12-18-05, 10:17 AM	The Natural Bond feat is useful to Beastmasters in one way - the SECOND animal companion could be improved by its benefit.