Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Swiftbrook 05-20-06, 09:09 PM	I've built a Ranger/Archer to 6th level and not sure where to go from here. As built: Wood Elf Ranger Dex +4, Str +3, Good Frosty Composite Longbow (+3 Str) R1: Point Blank Shot, Track R2: Rapid Shot R3: Percise Shot, Endurance R4: R5: R6: Many Shot, Improvoed Rapid Shot I'd like to add some kind of extra damage (d6, d8, Xd8, etc.) for all my shots, not just one (Order of the Bow Initiate). Also, I'd like to get Improved Percise Shot as soon as I hit 11th level. Any ideas appriciated. Also, if you think I goofed somewhere, express your thoughts. The next archer could benifit. -Swiftbrook
Mommy was an Orc 05-20-06, 11:55 PM	Are you actually currently a 6th level Ranger or you've worked out the build from levels 1-6, but don't know what to do afterwards? By the way, any time you have these kinds of questions, ask them at a (multiple of 3)-1, not actually at the multiple of 3. i.e. 5th level, not 6th. The problem is that a lot of prestige classes are limited by feats you can only take at levels 3, 6, 9, 12, or 15 - Pious Templar requires True Believer, which you could have taken at 6th. As an example, you could have done this: 6: Ranger 6: True Believer, Manyshot 7: Fighter 1: WF: Longbow 8: Pious Templar 1 9: Pious Templar 2 10: Pious Templar 3: WS: Longbow 11: Pious Templar 4: Improved Precise Shot 12: Ranger 7: Improved Rapid Shot 13: Fighter 1: Woodland Archer I'd pick up a level of Fighter for level 7 if you're already there and take Woodland Archer from Races of the Wild. That'll give you some really nice abilities with a bow, especially if you miss. Pick up Fighter 2 at level 11 for Improved Precise Shot or go to Ranger 11 for it. Really depends on what your other stats are. I've built a Ranger/Archer to 6th level and not sure where to go from here.
Lomiat 05-21-06, 12:33 AM	I recommend that you continue with straight ranger (skill points, animal companion, extra favored enemies) or take 4 levels of fighter for the feats: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization. As Mommy suggested, you can stagger your fighter levels to get a bonus feat at 11th level, or you can wait until 12th to gain Improved Precise Shot. As far as I know, there's no way for you to get the extra dice of damage to each shot without: a) enhancing the weapon, or b) dropping BAB for dips into Rogue or Scout. Levels of Rogue wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for you; your DEX is high enough that you might get initiative now and then. Also, if you have a cooperative Wizard, Improved Invis will get you those extra dice. Rogue 3 loses 1 BAB, gains Evasion (though scarcely ahead of the time you'd gain it as a straight Ranger) and 2d6 sneak. Rogue 4, if you take it, gets you Uncanny Dodge, again, fairly good for a high-DEX character. If you can find access to the prestige class, Dread Commando, you might consider a 1-level Fighter dip for Improved Init and then take Dread Commando. Gains extra d6 (3d6 over 5 levels) when you catch a foe flat-footed. Also gives your party a bonus to initiative. Nightsong Enforcer and Highland Stalker are two prestige classes that give full BAB and add some dice. Both require that you take at least a 1-level dip in another class.
zoinks69 05-21-06, 01:15 AM	I'd check out Wildrunner as well, though perhaps it's too late depending on your actual stats and skills. If you want to a be a super-duper archer, I'd go with levels that enhance that as quickly as possible. 2 fighter levels has an immediate payoff with more feats. 2 levels of templar gets you important bumps to Will save and Mettle. I'd try to squeeze in Evasion as well either via rogue (which gives you sneak dice + skill points) or monk (another nice save bump across the board). Anything to decrease you weaknesses is key (main weaknesses are usually HP, saves (Will, at least), and negating DR or doing subdual).
JamesMaissen 05-21-06, 01:54 AM	As built: Wood Elf Ranger Dex +4, Str +3, Good Frosty Composite Longbow (+3 Str) R1: Point Blank Shot, Track R2: Rapid Shot R3: Percise Shot, Endurance R4: R5: R6: Many Shot, Improvoed Rapid Shot -Swiftbrook Depending on your choices for favored enemy I would take that at 6th. I would choose Elemental as one of my choices as they tend to have DR that can't be bypassed and that is the bane of archers in general. The other enemy I would choose to taste depending on the character and general region. I would take fighter for the next 4 levels. 7th Fighter1 Improved Rapid Shot 8th Fighter2 Woodland Archer 9th Fighter3 Weapon Focus 10th Fighter4 Weapon Spec. You could try to go Pious Templar but those 8 skill points for 4 ranks Knowledge religion might be hard to come by for a wood elf. Also if your wisdom is not sufficient for casting then it's not *as* appealing a class. There's lots of ways to go with an archer, James
Swiftbrook 05-21-06, 06:56 AM	Are you actually currently a 6th level Ranger or you've worked out the build from levels 1-6, but don't know what to do afterwards? Just hit 6th level and I'm making my final decisions. I've been planning on Improved Rapid Shot for a few levels. Everyone: Great suggestions! Any more? -Swiftbrook
solbergb 05-22-06, 11:46 AM	What's your intelligence or cha like? If 12 (which is probably unlikely) arcane archer is better in LG than it often is in a campaign where GMW's fall from the local cleric/wizard like leaves in autumn. Otherwise, there's nothing wrong with going straight ranger. More favored enemies = more chances to do damage. More raw damage will cost you 4 fighter levels, or all the Pious Templar baggage which will do bad things to your skills and in the case of pious templar, consume the valuable 9th level feat withot paying off more damage till level 12, if memory serves. There are no PRC's that directly add to damage. Generally archer damage is an equipment problem, not a PRC problem. You want to beat all DR, so save your cash and access favors and get a holy or sacred bow, and get adamantium arrows. Beyond that, more +d6 on your weapon or making an elemental damage bow for use on everything that isn't evil (most nonevil targets don't have elemental resistances) is kinda how you go about it. Haste on boots is better than haste from the party arcane, it is both more reliable with weird mustering situations and means you aren't stuck in fireball formation waiting for the wiz or bard to get an action.
Swiftbrook 05-22-06, 04:12 PM	What's your intelligence or cha like? Swiftbrook R6 Str 16 Dex 18 Con 10 Int 10 Wis 13 Cha 8 Otherwise, there's nothing wrong with going straight ranger. More favored enemies = more chances to do damage. More raw damage will cost you 4 fighter levels But the middle Ranger levels don't give you much. ===================================== R7: 5 HP, Woodland Stride (not much use) R8: 5 HP, +1 Ref, +1 For, Swift Tracker (not much use), access to a 2nd level spell R9: 5 HP, +1 Will, Evasion R10: 5 HP, +1 Ref, +1 For, 3rd Enemy, One 2nd level spell. Fighter you lose 4 Skill points per level but you get: ====================================== F1: 6 HP, +2 For, Bonus Feat F2: 6 HP, +1 For, Bonus Feat F3: 6 HP, +1 Ref, +1 Will F4: 6 HP, +1 For, Bonus Feat, access to Weapon Specialization (+2 Dmg) As an archer, there are many feats I'm interested in, as has been mentioned: Woodland Archer Weapon Focus Weapon Specializaton Improved Percise Shot Improved Sunder (with a bow) Ehloma's Way (+3 to Hide & Survival in woods and +4 TH vs. enemy with cover) I have been thinking about taking a Sorcerer level dip, just to have access to some more archery type spells like Arrow Mind, and True Strike. But realistically, I'd need to buy a Cloak of Charisma and put my 8th level stat bump into Charisma to make a Sorcerer work. -Swiftbrook
Lomiat 05-23-06, 12:25 AM	<snip> But the middle Ranger levels don't give you much. ===================================== R7: 5 HP, Woodland Stride (not much use) R8: 5 HP, +1 Ref, +1 For, Swift Tracker (not much use), access to a 2nd level spell R9: 5 HP, +1 Will, Evasion R10: 5 HP, +1 Ref, +1 For, 3rd Enemy, One 2nd level spell. <end snip> Plus animal companion advancement. I don't know what you've been using, but as an archer, the ability to fly around on an advanced Dire Bat isn't bad. Nor is having an advanced Dire Wolf to trip the bad guys that get near you. The skill points are good. If you don't think so, you probably haven't been playing your character so much as rolling dice during combat. Ranger levels offer far more skill-based "character development" than low skill-point fighter levels. And Evasion is nothing to scoff. Through 6th level, you've likely avoided most area-affect explosion spells. They don't start showing up until APL 6 for the most part. By APL 10, you'd best have a way to deal with them. They may still only show up 1 mod in 4 or 1 in 8, but they can flat-out kill low to mediocre HP characters. Evasion ignores that and is suh-weet. Finally, the Ranger spells got a big lift from the Spell Compendium. If you continue straight Ranger, you might want to consider putting your 12th-level bump into WIS for the spellcasting. <back to snip> Fighter you lose 4 Skill points per level but you get: ====================================== F1: 6 HP, +2 For, Bonus Feat F2: 6 HP, +1 For, Bonus Feat F3: 6 HP, +1 Ref, +1 Will F4: 6 HP, +1 For, Bonus Feat, access to Weapon Specialization (+2 Dmg) As an archer, there are many feats I'm interested in, as has been mentioned: Woodland Archer Weapon Focus Weapon Specializaton Improved Percise Shot Improved Sunder (with a bow) Ehloma's Way (+3 to Hide & Survival in woods and +4 TH vs. enemy with cover) I have been thinking about taking a Sorcerer level dip, just to have access to some more archery type spells like Arrow Mind, and True Strike. But realistically, I'd need to buy a Cloak of Charisma and put my 8th level stat bump into Charisma to make a Sorcerer work. -Swiftbrook[/QUOTE] <end snip> Rangers already get access to Arrow Mind. Buy Pearls of Power if you want more. 4 levels of Fighter are nice; 'tis true. Woodland Archer, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Improved Precise Shot are all great feats. Mind you, if you go straight Ranger, you get Improved Precise Shot as a bonus feat at 11th level. Otherwise, you have to stagger your Fighter levels. I'd forget about Arcane Archer and the requisite Sor/Wiz levels; an item bump to make yourself a caster seems like a bad idea. Basically, it comes down to the fact that Fighter will get you Weapon Specialization for 2 pts more damage each shot. I recommend staying with Ranger. You get Improved Precise Shot ASAP. You get the skill points (and Spot is not such a bad skill for a Ranger archer). You get the spells (which are already good and can only be improved with new materials). You get the animal companion advancement. For feats, I recommend Woodland Archer at 6th (good vs. invisible things, too), Improved Rapid Shot at 9th, Improved Precise at 11th (archery style), and something different at 12th. Ultimately, Living Greyhawk characters are a matter of what your character can bring to a group of 4 to 6. The fighter's 2 extra points of damage per shot aren't going to matter so much as skills, spells, and animal companion. You might end up calling out slightly lower numbers for your damage rolls, but you'll ultimately contribute more.
boogahwoof 05-23-06, 02:43 PM	i have a completly different idea. if you are just looking to add a lil damage and flair. in our pretty vast group we play with there is a archer that has taken a few levels of occult slayer. attune yourself to your bow (1d6 against anything using magic or having spellike abilities) at 1st level occ slayer. 2nd level occ slayer you get 2 awsome powers a: mind over magic (tha ability to turn 1 spell a day back at a caster) b: visiouse strike (if you ready a attack to disrupt spellcasting and you hit its auto x2 on the damage if you crit on the roll , your looking at x5 damage) i have seen it happen once, very devastating to a caster. and with a ranged weapon as your focus weapon you can easily ready a action to disrupt spell casting. youde have to take 7th level fighter to get a feat (improved inititive) occ slayer requirement.
Swiftbrook 05-23-06, 03:58 PM	Plus animal companion advancement. I don't know what you've been using, but as an archer, the ability to fly around on an advanced Dire Bat isn't bad. Nor is having an advanced Dire Wolf to trip the bad guys that get near you. Basically, it comes down to the fact that Fighter will get you Weapon Specialization for 2 pts more damage each shot. Haven't considered the Dire Bat. Many to most of my LG adventures have been indoors or underground. Not much use for a Dire Bat there. Dire Wolf is out of the question for LG and a straight Ranger. Need to be 14th level. I have considered Natural Bond feat (+3 effective druid levels for animal companion) or the Skill Focus (Handle Animal) feat and a level dip in Beastmaster (+4 effective druid levels). +2 HP per shot is nothing to scoff at when you're shooting 3 arrows a turn and facing DR. Evasion does sound better in light of what you've said. Not sure where I'm going yet. A level or two dip in Fighter for the feats and catching up with the Ranger skill points. My main feats are Survival, Spot and Listen. A level in Fighter, then Ranger, then Fighter will keep my skills maxed out (almost). I'll post a working build later tonight. -Swiftbrook
Cynric 05-23-06, 07:23 PM	I had one I was working on that was similar. 2 levels of ranger, mainly for point blank and favoured enemy evil outsider. Then fighter to 6th level and qualify for occult clayer. As mentioned above it can be pretty handy in higher level mods where you run into quite a few of them and 99% of them have spells or spell likes. I was then looking at going back to fighter to get all the fun feats like improved precise etc. I will have a look at the build when I get home tonight and post a more detailed list.
Maesto 05-24-06, 01:34 AM	I currently have an archer with 6 ranger and 2 fighter levels, going for a beastmaster dip, followed by more ranger levels. The character is very skills oriented and is there to roleplay, not just to belt out as much damage as possible. Feats are: 1 Point Blank Shot 1 Track (ranger) 1 Precise Shot (human) 2 Rapid Shot (ranger) 3 Skill Focus (Handle Animal) 3 Endurance (ranger) 6 Many Shot (ranger) 6 Improved Rapid Shot 7 Woodland Archer 8 Improved Critical 9 Natural Bond 12 Improved Favoured Enemy Improved Precise Shot can come from more ranger levels, or taking a couple of fighter levels to get the bonus feat and qualify for weapon spec also.
Swiftbrook 05-24-06, 09:06 PM	My Current Thoughts R1: Point Blank Shot, Track R2: Rapid Shot R3: Percise Shot, Endurance R4: R5: R6: Many Shot, Natural Bond F1: Improved Rapid Shot R7: R8: Woodland Archer Or I might go: R6: Many Shot, Natural Bond F1: Improved Rapid Shot F2: Woodland Archer R7: Weapon Focus(Composite Longbow) -Swiftbrook
TheMagus 05-26-06, 02:59 PM	My Current Thoughts R1: Point Blank Shot, Track R2: Rapid Shot R3: Percise Shot, Endurance R4: R5: R6: Many Shot, Natural Bond F1: Improved Rapid Shot R7: R8: Woodland Archer Or I might go: R6: Many Shot, Natural Bond F1: Improved Rapid Shot F2: Woodland Archer R7: Weapon Focus(Composite Longbow) -Swiftbrook Natural Bond is a limited feat. Honestly I would look at the Pious Templar option. Take True Believer now and a fighter level at 7th, and you can have both WS and Improved Precise Shot at 11th. Especially if you are rarely in a situation where the animal companion will make a difference.
paigeoliver 05-26-06, 03:56 PM	One Dire Bat note, as someone who plays a character based around a dire bat mount (who still won't get it for 2 more levels (grrr, character death), I must point out the "Tunnel Riding" feat which lets you squeeze your mount without penalty. You might not be able to fly "Flappy" around underground, but you can still ride him around down there on the ground. If you want a Dire Bat archer I would suggest a mostly fighter build (takes a lot of feats for this build) with a beastmaster level at level 6. My build for that. Character has got to be LIGHT to ride a normal dire bat. They can only fly with 180 lbs. So Human female, or something non-human. I'm presenting a dire bat archer build, while my own character is a dire bat lance charger build. I'm assuming human female, push back some of the feat choices by 1 each if going with non-human. You can push the feat choices around quite a bit, you just have to have that skill focus handle animal for beastmaster. You might choose to get the mounted combat/archery earlier and push off the weapon focus/specialization until later, which is a very valid choice. Also, the ranger levels are optional, they can be fighter levels if you want as you can still qualify for the class same level with a pure fighter. Level 1 Ranger. point blank shot. Skill focus Handle animal. Level 2 Fighter. precise shot. Level 3 Fighter. Tunnel fighting, Tunnel riding. Level 4 Fighter. No feat for you! Level 5 Ranger. Archery style (rapid shot). Level 6. Beastmaster. Dire Bat mount. Level 7 Fighter. Weapon specialization composite longbow. Level 8 Fighter. no feat for you. Level 9 Fighter. Improved critical comp longbow. Mounted combat Level 10. Fighter. No feat for you. Level 11 Fighter. Greater weapon focus. Level 12 Fighter. Mounted archery. Level 13. Fighter. pick a feat. Level 14. Fighter. no feat. Level 15 fighter. Greater weapon spec and pick a feat. You also may want to ditch the tunnel fighting/riding altogether, since a mounted archer is not as mount dependent as a mounted lance character. I took them at 3rd level for my batrider, but that is because she is a lot more dependent on the mount than an archer would be.
Swiftbrook 05-29-06, 03:35 PM	Level 1 Ranger. point blank shot. Skill focus Handle animal. Level 2 Fighter. precise shot. Level 3 Fighter. Tunnel fighting, Tunnel riding. Level 4 Fighter. No feat for you! Level 5 Ranger. Archery style (rapid shot). Level 6. Beastmaster. Dire Bat mount. Level 7 Fighter. Weapon specialization composite longbow. Level 8 Fighter. no feat for you. Level 9 Fighter. Improved critical comp longbow. Mounted combat Level 10. Fighter. No feat for you. Level 11 Fighter. Greater weapon focus. Level 12 Fighter. Mounted archery. Level 13. Fighter. pick a feat. Level 14. Fighter. no feat. Level 15 fighter. Greater weapon spec and pick a feat. Interesting build. I think you forgot your 6th level feat. I would take Mounted combat there.
Swiftbrook 05-29-06, 03:38 PM	Still need to check into the Pios Templar option. But this is what I'm leading towards: 6th: Ranger 6 - Improved Rapids Shot, Many Shot 7th: Fighter 1 - Wilderness Archer 8th: Ranger 7 9th: Beastmaster 1 - Skill Focus (Handle Animal) 10th: Ranger 8 11th: Figher 2 - Improved Percise Shot 12th: Occult Slayer 1 - Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow) -Swiftbrook
Mommy was an Orc 05-29-06, 03:59 PM	9th: Beastmaster 1 - Skill Focus (Handle Animal) 12th: Occult Slayer 1 - Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow) You need to take those feats before you enter the PrC...
Swiftbrook 05-29-06, 06:22 PM	You need to take those feats before you enter the PrC... :embarrass I adjust ... 6th: Ranger 6 - Improved Rapids Shot, Many Shot 7th: Fighter 1 - Wilderness Archer 8th: Ranger 7 9th: Ranger 8 - Skill Focus (Handle Animal) 10th: Beastmaster 1 11th: Figher 2 - Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow) 12th: Occult Slayer 1 - Improved Percise Shot -Swiftbrook
Swiftbrook 05-31-06, 05:50 AM	Or: 6th: Ranger 6 - Improved Rapids Shot, Many Shot 7th: Figher 1 - Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow) 8th: Occult Slayer 1 9th: Ranger 7 - Skill Focus (Handle Animal) 10th: Beastmaster 1 11th: Figher 2 - Improved Percise Shot I need to double check my skills to make sure I qualify for Occult Slayer at 8th level. I may need to take Ranger 7 at 8th level and Occult Slayer 1 at 8th level to get the extra skill points. This build doesn't have Wilderness Archer, which is a cool feat. -Swiftbrook
Lomiat 05-31-06, 06:05 PM	Or: 6th: Ranger 6 - Improved Rapids Shot, Many Shot 7th: Figher 1 - Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow) 8th: Occult Slayer 1 9th: Ranger 7 - Skill Focus (Handle Animal) 10th: Beastmaster 1 11th: Figher 2 - Improved Percise Shot I need to double check my skills to make sure I qualify for Occult Slayer at 8th level. I may need to take Ranger 7 at 8th level and Occult Slayer 1 at 8th level to get the extra skill points. This build doesn't have Wilderness Archer, which is a cool feat. -Swiftbrook Personally, I would take Woodland Archer instead of Improved Rapid Shot. 1) If you hit despite the -2 for Rapid Shot, Improved does nothing for you. Archers commonly hit on their first 2 or 3 shots without much difficulty. 2) If you miss because of the -2 for Rapid Shot, Woodland Archer then gives all your other attacks +4 to hit, better than the +2 for Improved. True, you have to miss first to gain this benefit, but it affects all your shots (just as does Improved Rapid Shot) and gives you better odds to hit with your 3rd and 4th shots. Effectively, this benefit of Woodland Archer improves your last shots as much as Improved Rapid Shot improves your initial shots. 3) But the real benefit comes from its other uses: Sniping Attack can be good, depending on your build, but the ability to ignore Concealment is huge. When Hasted archers fire 5 arrows at 11 BAB, 50% of the time none of the arrows are affected by Concealment (when the first one hits). Chances are you'll have 3 arrows ignore concealment penalties. And if you fail (because of Concealment) early, they'll all fire at +4 to hit. Improved Rapid Shot doesn't really compare, IMO.
Swiftbrook 06-01-06, 07:52 PM	Personally, I would take Woodland Archer instead of Improved Rapid Shot. (snip) Improved Rapid Shot doesn't really compare, IMO. This line of thougth really intrigued me. So, since I teach math, I decided to run the numbers with my ranger build. At 6th level: BAB +6 Dex +4 PBS +1 Magic Bow +1 Total TH +12 I did a comparison attacking a foe with AC 22. Other AC's turned up similar results (within 2%). With Improved Rapid Shot 1st Shot: +12, 50% chance to hit 2nd Shot: + 7, 25% chance to hit 3rd Shot: +12, 50% chance to hit average: 41.7% chance to hit. With Woodland Archer 1st Shot: +10, 40% chance to hit 2nd Shot: +5, 15% TH (if 1st hit, 40% of time), 35% TH (if 1st miss, 60% of time), average 27% TH 3rd Shot: +10, 40% TH (if 1 & 2 hit, 6% of time), 60% TH (if 1 or 2 miss, 94% of time), average 58.8% TH Total Average 41.9% chance to hit Talk about close, 41.7% to 41.9%. Now the other benifits of Woodland Archer. For Me, I don't shoot and hide, or hide and shoot. Haven't done it yet. I can't recall a time when I may have been able to either. Still should look into this. As for concealment assistance, this can be helpful, but again, for me, I have had only a few combats where this has been an issue. Now the simple problem with Woodland Archer and the 41.7% to 41.9% comparison is this: you must use Woodland Archer against the same foe to get it's benifits. I can remember many time when I have shot at multiple foes in the same round. As soon as you shoot at a second foe, you lose all the benifits of Woodland Archer. Still, there's the concealment issue that you can't correct until you get Improved Percise Shot at 11th level (but I'm still 6th). -Swiftbrook
JamesMaissen 06-01-06, 08:25 PM	This line of thougth really intrigued me. So, since I teach math, I decided to run the numbers with my ranger build. -Swiftbrook First you need to take shots in decending order (ie BAB order). This matters greatly for woodland archer as well as trip builds, etc. Second if you wanted to really run the numbers then you need to get a range and show where each breaks (if they break differently). Also you would need to factor in whether there is a haste attack as well or not. Personally I don't want to do the computations, but in general the more attacks at a tough AC the more woodland archer will shine over Improved Rapid Shot. The other functions are bonus I agree, but they are bonus and can indeed show up. -James
Swiftbrook 06-01-06, 08:38 PM	First you need to take shots in decending order (ie BAB order). This matters greatly for woodland archer as well as trip builds, etc. Not sure where this is in the rules, but I did it as well. (used a spreadsheet, quick and easy to make changes). IRS is 41.7% to hit vs. AC 22, WA is 41.3%. Actually worse. Second if you wanted to really run the numbers then you need to get a range and show where each breaks (if they break differently). Also you would need to factor in whether there is a haste attack as well or not. Not sure what you mean by "range". If you mean a range of target AC to compare to, I ran those numbers as well. As AC increases, WA seems to get better, about 2 to 3% better than IRS. If you mean range as in the lack of using Point Blank Shot or having distance penalties, I did not run those numbers. I always try to be within PBS range. Personally I don't want to do the computations, but in general the more attacks at a tough AC the more woodland archer will shine over Improved Rapid Shot. The other functions are bonus I agree, but they are bonus and can indeed show up. -James I do plan on taking Woodland Archer. I'm just not sure if I'm going to take it first or second. -Swiftbrook
JamesMaissen 06-02-06, 12:09 PM	Not sure what you mean by "range". If you mean a range of target AC to compare to, I ran those numbers as well. As AC increases, WA seems to get better, about 2 to 3% better than IRS. -Swiftbrook I meant range of ACs, not range in distance (which would only modify the target AC). But I would also suggest that you see how the numbers change when you figure in being hasted. It's there that it seems reasonable that Woodland Archer will outshine Improved Rapid Shot. Mind you if you figure it's unlikely for you to be hasted in the level range between taking the first and the second feat then it may not mater as much for you. However since you've gone this far, I figure you might as well do it out. Also for completeness you may wish to figure on a BAB of 11 (for the second iterative attack) and see how Woodland Archer adjusts things there. I would suggest that you simply plot the two feats against AC and see where they break in each senario. -James
Howie23 06-02-06, 02:02 PM	This line of thougth really intrigued me. So, since I teach math, I decided to run the numbers with my ranger build. Try running this with an expected outcome instead of an average to hit. Average to hit is not particularly meaningful here. The suggestion that James made on AC ranges matters as well. Since WA kicks in at higher ACs, you'll find it varies. David
Swiftbrook 06-13-06, 07:36 PM	deleted Update: New boards are still buggy. Board reset and lost the thread. I'll try the new boards in a few days. -Swiftbrook
Swiftbrook 06-18-06, 07:43 AM	Well, the new boards appear to be DOA. :( Here's what I came up with. Lomiat said it best: Ultimately, Living Greyhawk characters are a matter of what your character can bring to a group of 4 to 6. With that in mind, my build. 1) Ranger 1: Track, Point Blank Shot, 1st Favored Enemy: Humands 2) Ranger 2: Rapid Shot 3) Ranger 3: Endurance, Percise Shot 4) Ranger 4: Animal Companion 5) Ranger 5: 2nd Favored Enemy: Undead 6) Ranger 6: Many Shot, Natural Bond 7) Fighter 1: Improved Rapid Shot (or Woodland Archer) 8) Ranger 7: 9) Ranger 8: Woodland Archer, (or Improved Rapid Shot) 10) Ranger 9: Evasion 11) Ranger 10: 3rd Favored Enemy: Evil Outsiders 12) Ranger 11: Improved Percise Shot, ?? Feat Advantages Natural Bond at 6th level makes Smokie, my ever present riding dog, very powerful. He has more HP and more AC than I do at 6th level. Also, my animal companion is useful as I progress through the middle levels 7 -10, and not just one round of cannon fodder. The level dip into fighter allows me to stay on the archery track, gives me a HP boost and improves my Fort save. This build has just a few skill points less than a straight ranger, but has one more feat, better HP and save. -Swiftbrook
DuctShuiTengu 06-18-06, 09:56 PM	Here's what the tables look like, assuming I did my math right. Note: the column label "AC" is... slightly misleading. It's actually where their AC falls in relation to your attack bonus on a normal attack (for instance, my archer has a +14/+9 bonus on his rolls to hit when not using rapid-shot, so the first row at AC -5 would in fact represent a target with 9 AC (I've never seen anything with an AC that low, but threw that row in mostly to include things with an AC low enough that even the iterative attack (without Improved Rapid Shot) will hit on a 2.), while the bottom row at AC 22 would represent a target with 36 AC. These numbers will, of course shift depending on your attack bonus (for instance, if my character gets blessed, hasted, or gets an extra +1 on his attack rolls from any other source, everything would get moved up a row, while for a character with a +12 on their attack with a bow, this table would cover targets with ACs from 7 to 34)) Further Note: The chance of hitting for shots after the first with Woodland Archer are a weighted average of their chance to hit if all of the prior shot(s) hit and the higher chance of hitting if it's now getting the +4 bonus because one of them missed. Improved Rapid Shot (Not Hasted) AC Shot 1 Shot 2 Shot 3 Average -5 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% -4 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% -3 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% -2 95.00% 95.00% 90.00% 93.33% -1 95.00% 95.00% 85.00% 91.67% 0 95.00% 95.00% 80.00% 90.00% 1 95.00% 95.00% 75.00% 88.33% 2 95.00% 95.00% 70.00% 86.67% 3 90.00% 90.00% 65.00% 81.67% 4 85.00% 85.00% 60.00% 76.67% 5 80.00% 80.00% 55.00% 71.67% 6 75.00% 75.00% 50.00% 66.67% 7 70.00% 70.00% 45.00% 61.67% 8 65.00% 65.00% 40.00% 56.67% 9 60.00% 60.00% 35.00% 51.67% 10 55.00% 55.00% 30.00% 46.67% 11 50.00% 50.00% 25.00% 41.67% 12 45.00% 45.00% 20.00% 36.67% 13 40.00% 40.00% 15.00% 31.67% 14 35.00% 35.00% 10.00% 26.67% 15 30.00% 30.00% 5.00% 21.67% 16 25.00% 25.00% 5.00% 18.33% 17 20.00% 20.00% 5.00% 15.00% 18 15.00% 15.00% 5.00% 11.67% 19 10.00% 10.00% 5.00% 8.33% 20 5.00% 5.00% 5.00% 5.00% 21 5.00% 5.00% 5.00% 5.00% 22 5.00% 5.00% 5.00% 5.00% Woodland Archer (Not Hasted) AC Shot 1 Shot 2 Shot 3 Average -5 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% -4 95.00% 95.00% 90.49% 93.50% -3 95.00% 95.00% 85.98% 91.99% -2 95.00% 95.00% 81.46% 90.49% -1 95.00% 95.00% 76.95% 88.98% 0 95.00% 95.00% 71.95% 87.32% 1 90.00% 90.50% 68.80% 83.10% 2 85.00% 86.50% 65.55% 79.02% 3 80.00% 83.00% 62.20% 75.07% 4 75.00% 80.00% 58.75% 71.25% 5 70.00% 76.00% 55.20% 67.07% 6 65.00% 72.00% 51.55% 62.85% 7 60.00% 68.00% 47.80% 58.60% 8 55.00% 64.00% 43.95% 54.32% 9 50.00% 60.00% 40.00% 50.00% 10 45.00% 56.00% 35.95% 45.65% 11 40.00% 52.00% 31.80% 41.27% 12 35.00% 48.00% 27.55% 36.85% 13 30.00% 44.00% 23.20% 32.40% 14 25.00% 40.00% 19.06% 28.02% 15 20.00% 36.00% 14.60% 23.53% 16 15.00% 32.00% 9.89% 18.96% 17 10.00% 28.00% 5.00% 14.33% 18 5.00% 24.00% 5.00% 11.33% 19 5.00% 19.25% 5.00% 9.75% 20 5.00% 14.50% 5.00% 8.17% 21 5.00% 9.75% 5.00% 6.58% 22 5.00% 5.00% 5.00% 5.00% Improved Rapid Shot (Hasted) AC Shot 1 Shot 2 Shot 3 Shot 4 Average -5 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% -4 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% -3 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% -2 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% 90.00% 93.75% -1 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% 85.00% 92.50% 0 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% 80.00% 91.25% 1 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% 75.00% 90.00% 2 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% 70.00% 88.75% 3 90.00% 90.00% 90.00% 65.00% 83.75% 4 85.00% 85.00% 85.00% 60.00% 78.75% 5 80.00% 80.00% 80.00% 55.00% 73.75% 6 75.00% 75.00% 75.00% 50.00% 68.75% 7 70.00% 70.00% 70.00% 45.00% 63.75% 8 65.00% 65.00% 65.00% 40.00% 58.75% 9 60.00% 60.00% 60.00% 35.00% 53.75% 10 55.00% 55.00% 55.00% 30.00% 48.75% 11 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 25.00% 43.75% 12 45.00% 45.00% 45.00% 20.00% 38.75% 13 40.00% 40.00% 40.00% 15.00% 33.75% 14 35.00% 35.00% 35.00% 10.00% 28.75% 15 30.00% 30.00% 30.00% 5.00% 23.75% 16 25.00% 25.00% 25.00% 5.00% 20.00% 17 20.00% 20.00% 20.00% 5.00% 16.25% 18 15.00% 15.00% 15.00% 5.00% 12.50% 19 10.00% 10.00% 10.00% 5.00% 8.75% 20 5.00% 5.00% 5.00% 5.00% 5.00% 21 5.00% 5.00% 5.00% 5.00% 5.00% 22 5.00% 5.00% 5.00% 5.00% 5.00% Woodland Archer (Hasted) AC Shot 1 Shot 2 Shot 3 Shot 4 Average -5 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% -4 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% 90.71% 93.93% -3 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% 86.43% 92.86% -2 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% 82.14% 91.78% -1 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% 77.85% 90.71% 0 95.00% 95.00% 95.00% 72.85% 89.46% 1 90.00% 90.50% 90.95% 70.42% 85.47% 2 85.00% 86.50% 87.78% 67.72% 81.75% 3 80.00% 83.00% 85.40% 64.76% 78.29% 4 75.00% 80.00% 83.75% 61.56% 75.08% 5 70.00% 76.00% 80.20% 58.14% 71.09% 6 65.00% 72.00% 76.55% 54.51% 67.01% 7 60.00% 68.00% 72.80% 50.68% 62.87% 8 55.00% 64.00% 68.95% 46.67% 58.66% 9 50.00% 60.00% 65.00% 42.50% 54.38% 10 45.00% 56.00% 60.95% 38.18% 50.03% 11 40.00% 52.00% 56.80% 33.72% 45.63% 12 35.00% 48.00% 52.55% 29.14% 41.17% 13 30.00% 44.00% 48.20% 24.46% 36.67% 14 25.00% 40.00% 43.75% 19.77% 32.13% 15 20.00% 36.00% 39.20% 14.92% 27.53% 16 15.00% 32.00% 34.55% 9.98% 22.88% 17 10.00% 28.00% 29.80% 5.00% 18.20% 18 5.00% 24.00% 24.95% 5.00% 14.74% 19 5.00% 19.25% 19.96% 5.00% 12.30% 20 5.00% 14.50% 14.98% 5.00% 9.87% 21 5.00% 9.75% 9.99% 5.00% 7.43% 22 5.00% 5.00% 5.00% 5.00% 5.00% For characters with 5 or less (or 11 or more) BAB, I'd need to make new tables.
clik_ml 06-23-06, 04:39 AM	Something more to consider on that table is that if a target lasts more than 1 round, then more of an advantage goes to the Woodland Archer since the +4 attack bonus will likely apply to all. This will come up mostly if you take out mooks with your first shots and then miss with your last iterative attack I'd wager. While usually it is a good idea to concentrate attacks, Woodland Archer gives a fair incentive to make sure your last attack always goes on the toughest guy. Add in that Woodland Archer has extra utility vs. concealment and it pulls well ahead of Imp Rapid Shot from what is more or less a dead heat in the average attack bonus listed there. I groan at the lack of good archer prestige classes in 3.5. Staying the Ranger course like you're doing is probably your best bet. It's sad that the best archer PrC is Pious Templar in my book, mostly just so you can throw on Divine Sacrafice's 5d6 bonus damage on an arrow each round. Hopefully the payoff is worth the damage in most cases. I'm working on a halfling rage-archer who will make use of that in order to stay very relevant despite his small size and wasting ability points to gain a decent strength. A gnome or dwarf would be even better for that concept, but I have my idiosyncracies.
Swiftbrook 06-24-06, 07:15 AM	Something more to consider on that table is that if a target lasts more than 1 round, then more of an advantage goes to the Woodland Archer since the +4 attack bonus will likely apply to all. This will come up mostly if you take out mooks with your first shots and then miss with your last iterative attack I'd wager. While usually it is a good idea to concentrate attacks, Woodland Archer gives a fair incentive to make sure your last attack always goes on the toughest guy. "Subsequent shots you take against that foe this round gain a +4 bonus. First shot next round you lose the +4...." Add in that Woodland Archer has extra utility vs. concealment and it pulls well ahead of Imp Rapid Shot from what is more or less a dead heat in the average attack bonus listed there. "Shots you take against that foe in the next round don't incure the miss chance..." These restrictions limit the usefulness of Woodland Archer. I groan at the lack of good archer prestige classes in 3.5. Staying the Ranger course like you're doing is probably your best bet. I agree. I wish they would update the Deepwood Sniper from Masters of the Wild for 3.5 and make it available for LG. -Swiftbrook
clik_ml 06-24-06, 01:56 PM	Whoops, those restrictions sure do take the wind out of its sails. The ability to potentially avoid the miss chance for concealment for 1 round after you hit someone is still a marginal benefit which pushes woodland archer into the realm of being slightly superior to improved rapid shot (until improved precise shot enters the mix, mostly). But the annoying book-keeping that comes with Woodland Archer may be enough to make me reconsider taking it anyway. I suppose I'd rather just remember that I take no penalty for rapid shots than have to remember that yes, I do have +4 to hit on one guy this round but not the next round.
Swiftbrook 06-24-06, 05:22 PM	But the annoying book-keeping that comes with Woodland Archer may be enough to make me reconsider taking it anyway. I suppose I'd rather just remember that I take no penalty for rapid shots than have to remember that yes, I do have +4 to hit on one guy this round but not the next round. I like the feel of rolling three different colored sets of dice when I know I'm my three shots at just one target. I end up rolling about 9 dice all at once (I combine the d20 to hit dice and the damage dice in one big roll). -Swiftbrook