Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Stexe 04-29-06, 01:30 AM	I'm looking for a build that maximizes the ability to trip. I assume I'll be using a Spiked Chain (for the reach) and will go Fighter primary. I'm looking primarily for Human, although I might go Half-Orc. Any ideas or builds? Thanks.
Stexe 04-29-06, 01:52 AM	Currently, an idea of my build is taking 1 level in Marshal to get Motivate Strength (Trip is a strength check) and therefore go human (so I don't get penalty on CHA being a Half-Orc). I'd also go for Prone Attack so I can just fall with my weapon if I lose the trip instead of having to drop it. Also I'm considering taking Combat Reflexes and Deft Opportunity (+4 to hit on AoOs) so I can trip when they move in my threatened area to stop them from going any farther.
Umbra_Kaitou 04-29-06, 01:57 AM	I agree at least 1 level of Marshal could be beneficial One of the other minor Auras: Act of War provides a bonus to Trip attempts among other things. It would be another Aura to look into.
rockondon 04-29-06, 02:08 AM	well as a human fighter, a feat selection you could go with is: level 1: Exot.Weap.Prof: spiked chain Combat expertise Improved trip level 2: Dodge level 3: Mobility level 4: Spring attack (I LOVE this feat) level 5: no feats level 6: Whirlwind Knock-down (not sure but this one might not be allowed) For stats with a 28pt buy system I'd go with: Str: 16 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 14 (you need 13 int for some feats) Wis: 8 Chr: 8 If you choose a half-orc instead you could get an easy 18 strength which, with your 2-handed chain, would be 2 more damage/hit than the 16 would give you. Still, I'd choose a human anyway just because I'd rather have improved trip at 1st level and spring attack at 4th. But that's just me.
paigeoliver 04-29-06, 03:36 AM	Any medium sized race works. I'll put this one for human. STR 16 -10 CON 12 - 4 DEX 10 - 2 INT 14 - 6 WIS 8 - 0 CHA 14 - 6 Your level 4 and 8 stat bumps will either go into both STR or both CHA. Your choice, your trip check ends up the same either way. Level 1 Marshall. Art of War aura. Combat expertise and improved trip. Level 2 Fighter. Exotic Weapon proficiency. Whip or spiked chain. Whip has better reach, and is good for pulling flappy creatures out of the sky. Most guys do spiked chain, I myself fight with a whip in one hand and a standard weapon in another. Level 3. Fighter. Weapon focus with chosen weapon. Levels 4-7 take anything you want that will give you BAB. Level 8. Take exotic weapon master and choose "Trip attack" as your trick. Purchase STR gloves and a charisma cloak. This basic setup will have you tripping at +14 (+4 improved trip, +8 stats and aura, +2 for exotic weapon trick). You can further maximize this IF you are willing to forgoe wearing armor so you can take a sorceror level to enlarge yourself. Then you can get yourself to +18 Although from my own experience you don't have to go that extreme. I have a tripping marshall who is a primary marshall (4 levels marshall, 1 fighter), and he only has +10 total, and he seldom misses a trip.
Iswald 04-29-06, 03:43 AM	Exotic weapon master has an ability that gives a bonus to trip attacking weapons. There are a couple other useful abilities as well. Knock-down (Sword and Fist, 3.0) is not one of the allowed feats.
paigeoliver 04-29-06, 03:51 AM	Also, to the other poster, why would you want spring attack with a tripper? You won't be around to bash them when they stand back up?
rockondon 04-29-06, 04:17 AM	Spring attack is a prereq for whirlwind. Whirlwind + improved trip is amazing, especially if someone casts enlarge on you. Plus, not everything can be tripped. Spring attack is highly useful on its own - really handy when the grid is bottleknecked with friendly figs. Plus, being able to stay beyond a creatures reach, then move in to hit him then back away - creating an AoO if he comes in to melee you. It makes for interesting tactics sometimes. Anyways, my build was just something I made up off the top of my head so take it with a grain of salt.
thorinXXX 04-29-06, 09:48 AM	Tripping is VERY feat intensive. The key feats are Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip. The secondary feats are Power Attack and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain). Then there are all of the other interesting featsl like Close Quarters Fighting, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization. Yes, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) is secondary. You can get reach and tripping with a guisarm.
Lomiat 04-30-06, 01:54 AM	Marshall is cool and helps trippers, but detracts from the front-line fighter's standard job: stand in front and dish out more hits than you take. Another possible build (that gives you roughly the same bonus as Marshall) runs: Human STR 16 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 14 WIS 8 CHA 8 Bbn 1-Combat Expertise, Improved Trip Ftr 2-Exotic Weapon Prof (spiked chain) Ftr 3-Extra Rage, Combat Reflexes Ftr 4 Ftr 5-Weapon Focus (spiked chain) Bbn 6-Power Attack Exotic Weapon Master 7-choose the trick that gives you +2 to trip checks Exotic Weapon Master 8-choose the trick that lets you flurry Ftr 9-Cleave Ftr 10-Weapon Specialization (spiked chain) All stat bumps to STR. Assuming a Belt of Giant Strength +4 by 10th level, you can rage and hit a +14 trip check modifier by 10th level. Then to be boosted by Enlarge Person and/or any AR access goodies. By 3rd level, you rage nearly every combat and trip at +9. Invest in scrolls and potions of Enlarge Person. Unlike many other Tripper builds, which build almost entirely for battlefield control, this also lets you do damage. By 10th level (assuming the same things as above and a +1 weapon), you attack with 10 BAB, +8 STR, 1 Focus, 1 Weapon = +20/+15. Flurry for +18/+18/+13. Usually Power Attack for 4, offset by penalties for prone... would let you do 2d4+23+elemental damage. Straight weapon enhancements are worth serious consideration for a Tripper, though, as DMs tend to have their sundering monsters get mad at the little toy chains that keep dragging them down. You could also play as a Dwarf, for stability and HP, though that puts you back one feat, meaning you'd probably drop Cleave in the first 10 levels and would have to bump either Spiked Chain Proficiency or Combat Reflexes to 5th level and Power Attack to 9th.
JamesMaissen 04-30-06, 10:14 AM	Marshall is cool and helps trippers, but detracts from the front-line fighter's standard job: stand in front and dish out more hits than you take. Another possible build (that gives you roughly the same bonus as Marshall) runs: Human STR 16 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 14 WIS 8 CHA 8 Bbn 1-Combat Expertise, Improved Trip Ftr 2-Exotic Weapon Prof (spiked chain) Ftr 3-Extra Rage, Combat Reflexes Ftr 4 Ftr 5-Weapon Focus (spiked chain) Bbn 6-Power Attack Exotic Weapon Master 7-choose the trick that gives you +2 to trip checks Exotic Weapon Master 8-choose the trick that lets you flurry Ftr 9-Cleave Ftr 10-Weapon Specialization (spiked chain) This is a nice build. However I think I would leave fighter after 4th and look to shore up a will save for this guy. Or I could delay certain elements and do it first say via a pair of monk levels and an alignment change as outlined below: Monk 1: Combat Expertiese, Improved Trip, Imp Unarmed, Imp Grapple Monk 2: Combat Reflexes (Evasion) Barb 1: Extra Rage Ftr 1: EWP: Spiked Chain Barb 2: (Uncanny dodge) Ftr 2: WF Spiked Chain, Improved Init Occult Slayer 1 (weapon bond) EWM 1: Flurry Stunt EWM 2: Tripper Stunt, Power Attack Occult Slayer 2-5 (fun OS extras), EWM 3 (AOO w/ cover stunt). Or you can drop Imp Init and Occult Slayer, grab a full BAB class level (like ranger for increased Ref, a minor tracking ability), then take EWM. Not sure where after that though (I'd take all 3 levels at once then), so decided to hit OS above. Depends if you see +2 saves, better skills, evasion, imp unarmed and improved grapple as worth 1BAB or not. But I mainly just wanted to add two overall suggestions/words of advice: 1st: Even if you are optimized for a certain special combat maneuver whether it's tripping, grappling, or whatever your forte is, don't do it without thought. I've seen too many people trying to trip when they would be better off just doing damage. This is especially true when you are facing a creature with a miss chance! 2nd: Marshals are great to have *IN* the party, but are more or less dead levels to have *ON* your character. If you don't mind being mediocre but helping out the party as a whole, then mixing and matching a few levels of marshal is fine and great. You could indeed make an adequate marshal tripper, and if by doing so you are augmenting others in the party as the goal that's cool. But don't think of yourself as a solo if you are taking marshal levels. Think of yourself as taking one for the team and mitigating its cost to yourself by finding something that you can do better than at an NPC warrior power level. -James
King Kashue 04-30-06, 03:16 PM	Also, to the other poster, why would you want spring attack with a tripper? You won't be around to bash them when they stand back up? Because Spring Attack is a prerequisite to Whirlwind attack...And if you want to bring the uber cheese, a whirlwinding spiked chain wielder with improved trip is good enough to melt over nachos...
Mommy was an Orc 04-30-06, 11:02 PM	Marshals are anything but dead levels to a tripper build. It lets you stack Charisma and Strength increasing items. Also, with the 2nd level, you're effectively not even taking the BAB hit except at levels 6 and 11. A Barbarian 1/Marshal 3/Fighter 2/Hexblade 2/Occult Slayer 5/Exotic Weapon Master 2 has great saves, is barely impacted on hit points, is nearly fullBAB, and isn't bored with a lack of combat. Str 14, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 14 means an effective strength of 22 at 3rd level for Tripping purposes before the +4 mod for Improved Trip. 2nd: Marshals are great to have *IN* the party, but are more or less dead levels to have *ON* your character. If you don't mind being mediocre but helping out the party as a whole, then mixing and matching a few levels of marshal is fine and great. You could indeed make an adequate marshal tripper, and if by doing so you are augmenting others in the party as the goal that's cool. But don't think of yourself as a solo if you are taking marshal levels. Think of yourself as taking one for the team and mitigating its cost to yourself by finding something that you can do better than at an NPC warrior power level. -James
JamesMaissen 05-01-06, 09:06 AM	Marshals are anything but dead levels to a tripper build. It lets you stack Charisma and Strength increasing items. Also, with the 2nd level, you're effectively not even taking the BAB hit except at levels 6 and 11. A Barbarian 1/Marshal 3/Fighter 2/Hexblade 2/Occult Slayer 5/Exotic Weapon Master 2 has great saves, is barely impacted on hit points, is nearly fullBAB, and isn't bored with a lack of combat. Str 14, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 14 means an effective strength of 22 at 3rd level for Tripping purposes before the +4 mod for Improved Trip. We differ in opinion then. As to the build, yes it sacrifices a BAB early on for a +1 to trip over the other nonMarshal builds. But you trade damage and Combat Reflexes effectiveness for this. By needing to fuel the CHA you sacrifice Strength as well as any extra AOOs when enlarged. So you get a slight bonus to trip, but at the expense of the end of the day reward for it all. Getting to hit them for falling down and getting to hit them for standing up after. And doing lots of damage with each and every hit. Arguably taking leadership to bring a separate marshal to the table would do much better, as is always the case it's good to have the marshal at the table, but it's better not to have to be him. It's like throwing a few levels of Bard at a build and looking at it solo saying gee that +2 to hit and damage from an inspirational boosted song makes a character that much stronger. It's a nice little bone to throw the rest of the party (assuming there's not a real bard there to do it properly, or other moral bonus to take it's place) but it's not the end all be all. Now don't get me wrong, I think it's a nice build for throwing a marshal into a party. But you are fully paying for that class in stats and delayed class advancement. -James
Mommy was an Orc 05-01-06, 09:15 PM	As to the build, yes it sacrifices a BAB early on for a +1 to trip over the other nonMarshal builds. But you trade damage and Combat Reflexes effectiveness for this. By needing to fuel the CHA you sacrifice Strength as well as any extra AOOs when enlarged. You're just missing a +2 to Strength and Dex and gaining +4 to +10 to Strength for the purposes of Trips, Bullrushes, and skills. As well as being a decent party face with its access to all the primary face, knowledge, and spotter skills. Hexblade's bonus to saves or Outcast Champion's bonus to hit/damage can both really up the value of that charisma. The +1 to all melee attacks catches the BAB up. The only time it matters is when you have to have a +6 or +11 for that next iterative. Strength can still be a tripmaster's build primary stat with Charisma being funded via magic. At levels 6 and 11 or if you have a Marshal 2 with your exact auras in the party, sure there's a problem. But that's not going to happen all that often.
Lomiat 05-02-06, 01:06 AM	Marshals are anything but dead levels to a tripper build. It lets you stack Charisma and Strength increasing items. Also, with the 2nd level, you're effectively not even taking the BAB hit except at levels 6 and 11. A Barbarian 1/Marshal 3/Fighter 2/Hexblade 2/Occult Slayer 5/Exotic Weapon Master 2 has great saves, is barely impacted on hit points, is nearly fullBAB, and isn't bored with a lack of combat. Str 14, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 14 means an effective strength of 22 at 3rd level for Tripping purposes before the +4 mod for Improved Trip. Interesting. Later in the thread, you mention Outcast Champion, but that means the character would have to be half-orc or half-elf, not a good mix for the build. Either loses the feat, and the half-orc loses the CHA bonus. Nonetheless, what's the build for this one, level-by-level? I wonder if it wouldn't be more interesting if it didn't go for Occult Slayer, saving the feat, instead, for Intimidating Rage or something else a bit less common. 1-Bbn, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip 2-Fighter, Weapon Profiency (spiked chain) 3-Marshall, Skill Focus (diplomacy), The Art of War, Extra Rage 4-Fighter, Power Attack 5-Marshall, Motivate Attack 6-Marshall, Motivate Charisma, Intimidating Rage 7-Fighter 8-Fighter, Weapon Focus (spiked chain) 9-Exotic Weapon Master, Trip trick, Cleave (better than Combat Reflexes in a low-DEX build, I think) 10-Exotic Weapon Master, Flurry trick 12-Hex, Skill Focus (intimidate) 13-Hex, CHA bonus to saves vs spells 14-Hex, Mettle Bonuses in this build probably go to CHA, magic items to both STR and CHA. By 12th level, assuming a 17 CHA base, bumped to at least 19 with magic, this character would have 15 ranks to Intimidate, +2 synergy, +3 focus, +4 CHA, +4 Motivate CHA = +28 to Intimidate checks. Buy Rich or Luxury upkeep and get it to +30 or +32. Normally, Intimidate isn't worth much, but this character's Intimidating rage should be able to leave just about any non-immune-to-mind-affecting-fear-effects opponent Shaken. Trip attempts at 12th level (assuming at least Gauntlets +2 and Cloak of CHA +2) run at +13 once raging. Atk bonus (assuming +1 weapon) of +20 while raging, or +18/+18/+13/+8 for 2d4+8. The penalty in this build is its inability to do much damage unless Power Attacking. But that is why Power Attack exists. In the meantime, it would be somewhat less predictable than most Tripper builds. The roleplaying hook, though? That's tough. I mean, c'mon, it's a stretch--the erudite barbarian who rages every time diplomacy fails... I dunno.
Mommy was an Orc 05-02-06, 01:22 PM	Interesting. Later in the thread, you mention Outcast Champion, but that means the character would have to be half-orc or half-elf, not a good mix for the build. Either loses the feat, and the half-orc loses the CHA bonus. In the meantime, it would be somewhat less predictable than most Tripper builds. The roleplaying hook, though? That's tough. I mean, c'mon, it's a stretch--the erudite barbarian who rages every time diplomacy fails... I dunno. The basic idea is that he's a Hans and Franz-type motivational speaker - smart, charismatic, but a little goofy. He believes that everyone should find being strong a benefit in life, especially those girly man grey elves. There's a lot of potential variations on the build - the real key here from an optimization point of view is that he's someone who manages to be an effective battlefield control tripper and something else without being truly pointy. The big problem for me with a lot of tripper builds is that they have a lot of 2 point per level classes in them with lousy skill lists and their saves other than Fort are beyond miserable. Yet they have a 13-14 Int. Marshal 1/Hexblade 2(or Paladin 2) gives them 3 levels to really amp their Diplomacy/Intimidate scores and saves with their improved charisma. They can then level Strength so as to not be truly behind the regular builds. I'm actually going more of a Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Marshal 1/Paladin 2/Outcast Champion 5/Wildrunner 2 build for myself. By the time he's finished, he's beyond scary in terms of being a tripmaster if someone casts Improved Invis on him - he'll be able to trip people maybe 5 people a round with AoOs, then likely make 'em staggered in the process, and then do an extra 7d6 of damage with an occasional +14 to hit if he wants. He'll have a 22 Str(standard +6 belt)/24 Cha for an effective strength of 36 for purposes of tripping things. The low levels are going to be tricky without a doubt, but the advantages once he starts moving past 5th or so are eventually pretty amazing - maxxed out UMD, Diplomacy, Spot, and Intimidate, most of his abilities are (ex) for reading Anti-Magic Field scrolls to take out BBEGs at the highest levels or using Wands of various concealment spells to avoid rays, saves above +30/20/20 at the end, etc...
Nerax 05-02-06, 09:36 PM	How about this: Human str 15, dex 12, con 14, int 13, wis 10, cha 11 1 Warmage; Combat Expertise, Imp. Trip 2 fighter; Exotic WP Spiked Chain 3 Fighter; Practiced Spellcaster, Combat Reflexes 4 fighter; str +1 5 fighter; Weapon Focus 6 Dragon Disciple; Weapon Spec, Natural Armor +1 7 DD; str +2, Claw and Bite attack 8 DD; Breath Weapon 2d8, str +1 9 DD; str +2, Natural Armor to +2, Improved Toughness or ? 10 DD; blindsense 30ft 11 DD; con +2 12 DD; Breath Weapon 4d8, str +1, Natural Armor to +3, feat? 13 DD; int +2 14 DD; Wings 15 DD; Blindsense 60ft, dragon apotheosis, feat ? :D
Cardinal Teplin 05-03-06, 01:59 PM	If you reckon you can get access, then drunken masters make quite good trippers. Just push for as high a strength as you can. As with any trip build, a potion of enlarge is your friend, since enlarge adds a +5 to your trip checks. You could just go for a straight cleric., Get the Strength and Competion domians to get +1 on all trip checks, strength boost, and enlarge and/or righteous might as domian spells. You end up being pretty good at tripping. Another alternative is Master of Many forms. Druid 5/Master of many forms 10. Grab an int of 14, a a wisdom of at least 13, and then put the rest into wisdom, con and charisma. By high level you'll be turning into a huge creature (+8 to trip), with a good strength and reach. Mix in a few levels of warshaper at the end to increase your strength even more. If you're really desperate, add in a level of martial - since your charisma doesn't change when you change form. H
Jay_Ibero_911 05-03-06, 09:18 PM	Race:Human Alignment: STR-14 (6) DEX-14 (6) CON-14 (6) INT-14 (6) WIS-12 (4) CHA-8 (0) Lv1(Monk)Improved Grapple(b), Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm Lv2(Monk)Combat Reflexes(b) Lv3(Barbarian)Extra Rage Lv4(Fighter)Improved Trip, +1 STR Lv5(Fighter)Exotic Weapon Proficiency Lv6(Fighter)Weapon Focus Lv7(Fighter)Power Attack Lv8(Exotic Weapon Master)+1 STR Lv9(Exotic Weapon Master)Weapon Specialization Lv10(Cleric)Strength+Competition Domains First off, before anyone tries to call me on it, I'm aware you would have to change alignment between 2nd and 3rd level. With this build, you can continually confound an enemy by alternating trips and disarms. You disarm them, then when they pick up their weapon you trip with your AOO, then when they get up you Disarm with your AOO, and so on. The strength domain gets you enlarge person, and you can take domain spontanaeity at 12th to get multiple uses per day. Competition domain boosts both trip and disarm attempts. Exotic weapon master gives you flurry and +2 to trip. At 10th level, before magic items, you can have +17 to trip, and +31 Disarm while enlarged. The one level of cleric gets a little bit of both marshal and sorcerer/wizard. You could even take 3 more levels without losing BAB, and gain some more ability to heal or buff yourself.
Stexe 05-04-06, 03:01 PM	I'm not really looking to disarm. My character is planning on using a one handed light reach weapon (huge penalties on disarming, but oddly enough not tripping). Some of the builds are nice, but I'm not looking JUST to be a tripper (not just maxing tripping). I'm also looking for battle field control and going to use a special mission to get access to some tactical feats (Double Hit from MH for example).
Jay_Ibero_911 05-04-06, 10:05 PM	As far as I know, there aren't any 1 handed reach weapons...so I'm curious as to what weapons you are thinking of using...But if you don't want disarm and the chain, you can just ditch those 2 feats, and just take 1 level of exotic weapon master for the +2 trip, (Assuming the weapons you are considering are exotic, you could dual wield kama's for instance...), then leave the rest of my build as is...
paigeoliver 05-05-06, 01:31 AM	Whip is 1 handed and has a 15' reach. I play a whip based tripper/disarmer. As far as I know, there aren't any 1 handed reach weapons...so I'm curious as to what weapons you are thinking of using...But if you don't want disarm and the chain, you can just ditch those 2 feats, and just take 1 level of exotic weapon master for the +2 trip, (Assuming the weapons you are considering are exotic, you could dual wield kama's for instance...), then leave the rest of my build as is...
ShinAkuma2 05-05-06, 12:43 PM	Whip is 1 handed and has a 15' reach. I play a whip based tripper/disarmer. However, the big thing most trippers go for is the AoOs. You can't take an AoO with a whip, because it doesn't threaten.
Stexe 05-06-06, 03:05 PM	As far as I know, there aren't any 1 handed reach weapons...so I'm curious as to what weapons you are thinking of using...But if you don't want disarm and the chain, you can just ditch those 2 feats, and just take 1 level of exotic weapon master for the +2 trip, (Assuming the weapons you are considering are exotic, you could dual wield kama's for instance...), then leave the rest of my build as is... Kusari-Gama (DMG 150) is a light 1 handed reach weapon (and yes, it does threaten so it gets AoO) and it is probably my favorite weapon out there =) You also have some Eberron drow spiked whips and some old 3.0 weapons, but Kusari-Gama is the only 3.5 Core weapon that is a light reach and can threaten. Also, for your build, what advantage does going Monk 2 offer? I mean couldn't I just go Fighter 2 and get Combat Reflexes that the Monk 2 would offer but also get a better BAB and hp and access to higher level fighter only feats (found in PHBII)?
Arvagor 05-06-06, 11:53 PM	Kusari-Gama (DMG 150) is a light 1 handed reach weapon (and yes, it does threaten so it gets AoO) and it is probably my favorite weapon out thereUm... What DMG are you looking at? Mine is talking about magic traits and planar interactionson page 150... (nothing like that on page 150 of the PHB, DMG2, MM, or A&EG either...) Edit: I see; you actually meant page 145... This is not a 'core' weapon that can be purchased by PCs unless you gain access to it on an AR.
Stexe 05-07-06, 01:19 AM	Um... What DMG are you looking at? Mine is talking about magic traits and planar interactionson page 150... (nothing like that on page 150 of the PHB, DMG2, MM, or A&EG either...) Edit: I see; you actually meant page 145... This is not a 'core' weapon that can be purchased by PCs unless you gain access to it on an AR. Yes, I ment CORE as in from a CORE book. I have access to it =) Anyways, I'm still looking for good builds. The monk build isn't really in my forte. Especially at the cost of BAB when the feats and abilities it gives I won't be using. Still waiting for someone to convince me otherwise.
Jay_Ibero_911 05-07-06, 10:06 PM	Yes, I ment CORE as in from a CORE book. I have access to it =) Anyways, I'm still looking for good builds. The monk build isn't really in my forte. Especially at the cost of BAB when the feats and abilities it gives I won't be using. Still waiting for someone to convince me otherwise. Well, my build already takes 4 fighter levels. 2 More fighter levels gets you little more than one more bonus feat, whereas at the cost of 1 bab, the 2 monk levels give you a large array of useful abilities besides the target of combat reflexes. Good saves, more skill points, improved grapple (which is quite handy), Evasion, and the ability to not be completely crippled in those mods that like to leave you unarmed and unarmored for a combat. I like to think the 2 monk levels keep you from being pidgeon holed.
Stexe 05-08-06, 03:11 PM	First off, before anyone tries to call me on it, I'm aware you would have to change alignment between 2nd and 3rd level. With this build, you can continually confound an enemy by alternating trips and disarms. You disarm them, then when they pick up their weapon you trip with your AOO, then when they get up you Disarm with your AOO, and so on. The strength domain gets you enlarge person, and you can take domain spontanaeity at 12th to get multiple uses per day. Competition domain boosts both trip and disarm attempts. Exotic weapon master gives you flurry and +2 to trip. At 10th level, before magic items, you can have +17 to trip, and +31 Disarm while enlarged. The one level of cleric gets a little bit of both marshal and sorcerer/wizard. You could even take 3 more levels without losing BAB, and gain some more ability to heal or buff yourself. Doesn't the AoO happen before the target does their action? If you trip someone while they are trying to pick up a weapon, do they still pick up the weapon? I'd assume "yes" because they can pick up a weapon after the trip as well, but I'm not positive. The problem I have with this build, is that it focuses on disarm and that it doesn't use the fact that I'm using 2 light reach weapons. I'm thinking of going Swashbuckler 3 for Weapon Finese and bonus to damage from my INT. Any other things that can take advantage of the fact that Kusari-Gamas are light weapons and I'm wielding two of them?
Jay_Ibero_911 05-11-06, 12:23 AM	Doesn't the AoO happen before the target does their action? If you trip someone while they are trying to pick up a weapon, do they still pick up the weapon? I'd assume "yes" because they can pick up a weapon after the trip as well, but I'm not positive. The problem I have with this build, is that it focuses on disarm and that it doesn't use the fact that I'm using 2 light reach weapons. I'm thinking of going Swashbuckler 3 for Weapon Finese and bonus to damage from my INT. Any other things that can take advantage of the fact that Kusari-Gamas are light weapons and I'm wielding two of them? Yes, the AOO would happen before they pick up there weapon, but the point is, they got tripped in the process of picking up the weapon, so they are still at a disadvantage. The build takes advantage of alterating disarm and trip to keep the enemy at a disadvantage. As for Double wielding light exotic weapons...You could take the exotic weapon master trick to lower the twf penalty to only -1, and the trip trick to get +2 to your trips...
errant infinity 05-11-06, 11:53 AM	[Edit: Whoops, forgot I was in an LG forum. Removed references to rolling rules and permanency] Since you're not interested in disarming, one option that I think is worthy of considering is using a weapon other than a spiked chain. The spiked chain is an excellent weapon, so it's not an easy choice, but you could look at the Dwarven Warpike from Races of Stone. It deals 2d6, which is on average 2 more points of damage than the spiked chain will deal. You can also set it against a charge, and since charge attempts will be the source of a vast number of attacks of opportunities with your character (via Combat Reflexes), that extra damage might come in handy. And a minor note, but you'll also have two types of damage, Piercing and Slashing, to choose from, which will make you a little handier against things with damage reduction. But of course, being able to use your spiked chain at 5 feet is hard to give up. Also, since you'll need Dexterity to some extent for Combat Reflexes, using it for your attack rolls (via Weapon Finesse) is also good with a spiked chain. But if I've interested you at all, unless you're up against a wall, surrounded, or the like, the inability to attack at close range isn't too bad as long as you can take five-foot steps. And for those cases where it does come up, a pair of spiked gauntlets, or even spiked armor, will let you get in your attacks, as well as making you more versatille in general if you get disarmed. Or if you go with those monk builds, then you can always just kick. I personally think monk levels would be a good idea, but then, I like my saving throws. Another thing I thought I'd mention is a combat tactic. It works best with the Warpike, but will work with a spiked chain as well. With the Combat Reflexes feat, characters charging at you will provoke attacks of opportunity from you often. Suppose you took a ready action to take a five-foot step back and attack a charging opponent as soon as that opponent moved within 5 feet of you. Here's what would happen: First, your charging opponent would provoke an attack of opportunity to move within 5 feet (don't trip yet). Then, when he gets there, your ready action triggers, you move five feet back, and attack him (again, no tripping). If you were using a warpike, you dealt double damage because you set it against a charge. Now, because you moved back, he's not close enough to attack you, so he needs to move foreward another five feet with his charge, provoking yet another attack of opportunity. Here's a good time to trip him, and with improved trip, attack him as well. When he finally gets to attack you, he'll be taking a -4 penalty to his attack roll. And the best part of all of this is that your initiative count will come up before his next turn, so you get to attack him again. That is one of the cheesiest tactics my mind has ever conjured. I like cheese. Mmmmm...
opa 05-11-06, 12:21 PM	You've never actually played Living Greyhawk have you? This is a Living Greyhawk board and Living Greyhawk has specialized rules, you may want to familiarize yourself with the specifics of the campaign... so that the advce you give doesn't confuse anyone. You can read about these rules in the LGCS document that can be found on the Living Greyhawk portion of this site
Arvagor 05-11-06, 03:20 PM	Now, because you moved back, he's not close enough to attack you, so he needs to move foreward another five feet with his charge, provoking yet another attack of opportunity.Of course, this "2nd" AoO will never go off; in fact, he doesn't actually provoke for the additional movement, per the PHB: "Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent."
errant infinity 05-11-06, 04:16 PM	Ahhh, good catch. Though that would be the third attack that doesn't trigger, not the second (one to move in, as per the Hold the Line feat, one to move out, as normal, and then my erroneous AoO as 3, moving out a second time). New plan: The Sidestep Charge feat. It doesn't work terribly well with a polearm, but with a spiked chain, you could get an extra attack of opportunity after he finally misses you with his charge attack. How does this build look? Marshall 1: Minor Aura (art of war), Combat Expertise, Improved Trip Mnk 1: Improved Unarmed Strike Mnk 2: Evasion, Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain) Ftr 1: Deft Opportunist Ftr 2: Weapon Focus (spiked chain) Ftr 3: Lightning Reflexes Ftr 4: Prone Attack Exotic Weapon Master 1: Stunt (trip attack) Exotic Weapon Master 2: Stunt (flurry of strike), Weapon Specialization (spiked chain) Marshall 2: Major Aura +1 (motivate attack) Str 15 (+1, +1) Dex 14 Con 10 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 14 Money Spending: 1st: Masterwork guisarme 2nd: — 3rd: +1 spiked chain 4th: — 5th: Gauntlets of Ogre Power 6th: +2 spiked chain 7th: Cloak of Charisma +2 8th: — 9th: Belt of Giant Strength +4 10th: +3 spiked chain Trip Bonus 1st: +5 2nd: +5 3rd: +6 4th: +8 (+12 AoO) 5th: +11 (+15 AoO) 6th: +13 (+17 AoO) 7th: +15 (+19 AoO) 8th: +18 (+22 AoO) 9th: +20 (+24 AoO) 10th: +23 (+27 AoO) I think that's right. I starts out slow, but it climbs quickly. Alternatively, instead of Lightning Reflexes and Prone Attack, Hold the Line and Sidestep Charge might be good ideas, to give you extra attacks against charging characters. I'd also spend some money on AC and perhaps Vests of Resistance somewhere in there as well.
Stexe 05-15-06, 04:42 AM	Well -- all the builds are nice, but I'm still trying to customize my guy who is using two light handed reach weapons (Kusari-Gama). Because of the fact that I can use 2 and they have reach I've decided to go for the Double Hit (MH) feat which lets me attack twice on an AoO. Other than Double Hit, I haven't really got much info to maximize the fact that I'm wielding 2 light weapons. I could see Swashbuckler using this to an advantage, and maybe Dervish (dance around in a 2x2 square while hitting with all my reach), but nothing else. Any ideas on using the light attribute and 2 weapons to my advantage?
Howie23 05-15-06, 02:19 PM	Well -- all the builds are nice, but I'm still trying to customize my guy who is using two light handed reach weapons (Kusari-Gama). Because of the fact that I can use 2 and they have reach I've decided to go for the Double Hit (MH) feat which lets me attack twice on an AoO. Remember that Double Hit is not Core; it is Limited so you will need campaign access. If you're gonna spend a feat that only works for AoOs, you might consider Deft Opportunist instead (+4 to AoOs). Also consider possibly using one of your Kusari-Gamas while using something inthe other hand that threatens your adjacent squares (like a sickle, if you want to trip). David
spellbow 05-15-06, 03:31 PM	the thing is that you can use an kusari-Gama and trip people that are both adjacent and 10ft away like a spike chain
Stexe 05-16-06, 08:38 AM	Remember that Double Hit is not Core; it is Limited so you will need campaign access. If you're gonna spend a feat that only works for AoOs, you might consider Deft Opportunist instead (+4 to AoOs). Also consider possibly using one of your Kusari-Gamas while using something inthe other hand that threatens your adjacent squares (like a sickle, if you want to trip). David Ya, was going to use a Special Mission to get access to some feats from MH. Or I could just join a meta-org with access to it. Disregarding any Limited things (of course NPC Only and Restricted I can't really get access to), anyone have a good build using Double Hit and Deft Opportunist (CAd)?
zoinks69 05-20-06, 02:34 AM	2 light weapons automatically sounds like a candidate for Weapon Finesse (which you could get via swashbuckler, but depending exactly what you want, I'd be taking as many fighter levels as possible, 2 levels of ranger, and EWM). Would work great most of the time, particularly while enlarged. Reflexes, Double Hit & Deft Oppotunist all go well together. HOWEVER, I think you would have a hard time adding trip into the mix, for several reasons: 1. You'd probably be a Dex build (to maximize your to hit and give you more AoO's) and I don't know of any way to make the Trip check into an opposed roll that would use your Dex. Might consider going Wood Elf (you could have 18 str/18 dex, for instance). 2. You're rather feat-intense to get two-weapons to be respectable (there's a EWM trick to get the penalties down by one, right?), getting to Expertise and Improved Trip would be quite a stretch. Since they are light weapons, you won't be dishing out damage (at least not vs. a Power Attacker or even a Chain tripper), so I'm somewhat dubious on the TWF idea unless you can get it to work with Trip somehow. I think what you'll run into is that by the time you can get enough feats, most of the bad guys' ability to not be tripped will have ramped beyond what you can keep up with, not to mention their size/reach will start to be on par with what you can do even while enlarged (so all the AoO stuff won't be as useful). Still, I like the idea -- actually, we've probably spoken about this if you're the guy I met at the HUB :) and I'll try to help you out if you have more questions.
Stexe 05-22-06, 09:38 AM	Still, I like the idea -- actually, we've probably spoken about this if you're the guy I met at the HUB :) and I'll try to help you out if you have more questions. Ya, I'm probably "that guy" you met at the HUB, don't know anyone else who goes to PennState and plays LG and was talking about a Kusari-Gama, I and you could be mistaken though :P . I can see a problem with the enemies having a longer reach than me and therefore making my AoOs pointless, but how often do you meet a guy who has a reach longer than 20 in LG? I was thinking of going Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2 or something to get the feats and the INT damage to my attacks. The advantage of going TWF with tripping is that I get double (if not more) the attempts to trip the enemy and with Prone Attack I can simply let myself be tripped and then attack while I'm prone, hopefully tripping them before they can reach little ol' prone me. I've decided that Tripping is good, but it is just another alternative, I'm still mainly about dealing damage through AoOs. I wonder if I can convince a Triad (I can go to Keoland, Veluna, and Geoff because I have places to play games in all those regions) to let me get the "Stand Still" feat in the Expanded Psionics Handbook (it is a General feat so no actual psichic powers are needed). I doubt I'll get that, but that would be an interesting twist on the character. I was just thinking about a build like this, although if it will ever come to fruition it will not be until this Fall; have to run games to get my home players higher level to help me with any Special Mission I need :D
zoinks69 05-22-06, 04:18 PM	Yeh, Stand Still is way awesome. If I ever level up in Arcanis, my spiked chain guy will pick that up :) I'm not sure how the LG powers would feel about it though.