Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HypnoticMonk 05-12-05, 09:46 AM	I have some questions about the new core, non-PHB classes (Marshall, Swashbuckler, Favored Soul, Warmage, Hexblade, Scout) available in LG. How many of you have either played one of these classes or have at least had one of them in your adventuring parties? How well did the class function as an LG character? Any problems pop up? If you haven't any experience, is there one or more of these classes that you are really itching to try? Just curious... (In case anyone was curious, I have adventured with a marshal and a rogue/swashbuckler in my party. The marshal left me a bit cold but the swashbuckler seemed to work well.)
JohnduBois 05-12-05, 10:03 AM	I'm currently playing a Swashbuckler/Scout and I played a Warmage. The Swashbuckler is pretty cool, but at early levels the class is a little soft for what it has to do. Similarly, once you get a Scout to level 2 (and get a high Tumble modifier), the class is really good, but at level 1 it's not terribly survivable. The Warmage is nice as an arcane class early on because it gets better damage and can do something besides cry once it runs out of spells, but I'm not sure about its effectiveness later on. I've also tabled with Hexblades and Marshals. The Hexblade class seems fun, but I'm not sure if its abilities make it better than the other combat classes (although having a fighter BAB and a good Will save is kinda cool). The Marshal is a player-dependent class - unlike a Fighter, where you can design a character that just hits stuff until it dies, a Marshal requires good play choices during the module. I've tabled with good players, so it was an effective class. I could also see how the debate could swing the other way if subpar players are playing the Marshal. I haven't played or tabled with a Favored Soul yet, but it seems to be a well-balanced class (also known as the only decent thing in the book besides Radiant Servant). Unfortunately, while it still can spontaneously cast cure spells (as long as the cure spell is one of your spells known), it loses two of the coolest aspects of clerics - turning and versatile spell selection. I think this could really hurt the class's effectiveness. Hope this helps.
Sieylianna 05-12-05, 12:43 PM	I've played a Favored Soul for a few modules. My approach (and that of another player of a favored soul that I spoke to) was to ignore offensive spells and concentrate on Charisma (which determines # of spells) instead of having to split ability points between Charisma and Wisdom (which sets the saving throw DC). I think they are underpowered. You not only give up the ability to turn undead, but you also miss out on domain abilities and your skill selection suffers. The favored soul has a very difficult time qualifying for "clerical" Prestige Classes (because they frequently require turning, knowledge religion, or specific domains). If you plan to do any healing at all, you'd be better off as a cleric. If you plan to concentrate on buffing yourself for melee or need a little divine casting to qualify for a prestige class, it may be alright. Ed
kjenks 05-12-05, 01:46 PM	I can't see that Favored Soul is in any way competitive with Cleric. Given the choice, you'd take levels in Cleric almost every time. But I'm glad it's in the campaign. Now, my high-Charisma, low-Wisdom sorceress can make just one Use Magic Device check to Use a Scroll as a Favored Soul for activating divine scrolls instead of needing two UMD checks -- one to emulate the class and another to emulate having a high enough Wisdom.
ranagrande 05-12-05, 08:09 PM	The next character I make is going to be insanely multiclassed, with one of the key components being Marshal.
Southernskies 05-13-05, 04:29 AM	A Favored Soul can't compete with a cleric for anti-undead or healing. What they do offer is flexible spell selection and many more spells per day. Like a sorcerer, you have to plan your spells carefully, but they can pay off more. We had a FavS10 PC when we slot0 the last LotGR special and between his energy resistance (which negated most of the acid breathing half-dragon troglydytes) and the ability to throw the same spells over and over (mass cure light, flame strike, various buffs), it proved it's worth as a support class. It is still handy to have a cleric, but you can survive without one if you don't need to turn. As a result, I have created a FavS PC for LG, and in its first game, the ability to throw multiple Bless and Magic Weapon spells saved the party more than raw healing ability.
King Kashue 05-13-05, 07:13 AM	What they do offer is flexible spell selection and many more spells per day. Like a sorcerer, you have to plan your spells carefully, but they can pay off more. Thing is though, a sorceror has only a few spells, but their counterpart the wizard only has the spells in his spellbook, so he is limited as well... The favored soul has the same limitations as the sorceror, but his counterpart the cleric has access to all divine spells...An individual wizard may or may not be able to memorize glitterdust depending on if it's in his spell book, but all clerics can memorize silence... And with the domain spell, the cleric has more spells per day than an equivalent wizard (unless the wizard is a specialist) as well as the domain abilities, plus he can spontaneously heal... a 1st level Cleric, wis 18 has 2 normal spells and 1 domain spell (3 per day), and they can choose from any divine spell...A 1st level Favored soul has 3 spells per day (same as the cleric) and only knows 3 spells, one of which has to be CLW if he wants to heal anyone... A Cleric can take Lesser vigor as a 1st level spell and use it for after battle healing (15 points by 5th level) or spontaneously use it as a CLW in battle, and then pearl the slot back with a pearl of power...A favored soul can't and he'll never know more than 6 1st level spells... The gulf between the cleric and the favored soul is greater than the gulf between sorceror and wizard...It's a playable class, and anyone who wants to play one should, but the class is at a greater disadvantage in relation to the cleric than the sorceror is to the wizard...
Sieylianna 05-13-05, 12:27 PM	The gulf between the cleric and the favored soul is greater than the gulf between sorceror and wizard...It's a playable class, and anyone who wants to play one should, but the class is at a greater disadvantage in relation to the cleric than the sorceror is to the wizard... I agree. A sorceror only needs one good stat for casting spells, while the favored soul needs two. In addition, a cleric can already spontaneously cast a cure spell. The fact that the Blessed Relief player reward card can't be used by favored souls is another point against them in LG. Ed
Cardinal Teplin 05-13-05, 12:35 PM	I'm really itching to play a marshal... Partly because I'd really like to see a high-charisma front-line warrior who isn't a paladin. But yes, multi-classing is going to play a big part of the design. I don't see the point of having huge numbers of different auras when you can only use one at a time. Bear in mind though, that I'm automatically drawn to whatever I see as the weakest possible character class. I used play a druid in 3e However, I'm looking at the dex bonus minor aura, and wondering what that will do the party initiative... We play in a region where most of the bad guys have improved initative, and it would be nice to have the whole party going first for a change.
King Kashue 05-13-05, 11:32 PM	I'm really itching to play a marshal... Partly because I'd really like to see a high-charisma front-line warrior who isn't a paladin. But yes, multi-classing is going to play a big part of the design. I don't see the point of having huge numbers of different auras when you can only use one at a time. Bear in mind though, that I'm automatically drawn to whatever I see as the weakest possible character class. I used play a druid in 3e However, I'm looking at the dex bonus minor aura, and wondering what that will do the party initiative... We play in a region where most of the bad guys have improved initative, and it would be nice to have the whole party going first for a change. Playing with a Marshal is like playing with a bard...With a good player, it can be a really powerful character...With a bad player, you're carrying dead weight...
Sect 05-29-05, 03:28 PM	Marshal- This guy's like an offensive support guy, the sort of guy that's decent in combat and has good support abilities. What it really depends on is what auras you select. For instance, my Bright Lands Marshal chose as his minor aura the charge attack boosting aura, because he''s a mounted combat character. (Trying for Marshal/Paladin/Cavalier) It's really only good if the majority of the party is close range combat based, which was why I was so surprised when our party for the mod had ONLY combat characters (with only one as a ranged fighter). One of my friends has a Bard/Marshal with the Charisma boosting aura, which really only makes his Perform checks even more ridiculous. I was very happy to have it when I used turning, though. Swashbuckler- This is a good class to have if you're a light infantry guy with high Dex, especially so if you also have Rouge levels. Try this: High Dex, High Cha (or ranks in Bluff), Improved Feint, Sneak Attack. Favored Soul- I've played with two Favored Souls, both low level. I laughed at them, due to the fact that I had a Sorceror/Cleric. One I almost killed, because of a really REALLY stupid thing he did (fortunately, he only got arrested, and thus I did not have to leave the mod), the other I continued laughing at, because though he was a multiclass Sorceror/FvS, he usually ended up being dead weight. I suppose that they would be much better at higher levels, due to Energy Resistance and Weapon Focus and other things like that, but mostly I just laugh at them. Warmage- I hate Warmages. However, this is due to being a Sorceror. I'm pretty jealous of their damage boosting, their spontaneous spellcasting, their high amounts of spells per day, their knowledge of the all the spells, their ability to wear armor effectively, and their hit dice. SO yeah, I don't like them, but it's mostly because I'm jealous, and reluctant to admit that a Warmage has saved my hide many times. Scout- It depends on play style. Skirmisher characters, who move around the battlefield, are perfect for this class. At lower levers, archers are good for it, but later on it becomes somewhat worthless, due to Rapid Shot and other feats like it. Probably the PrC that benefits most from it is the Dervish, due to the fact that they can perform full attacks even if they move more than five feet.
DuctShuiTengu 05-30-05, 03:44 AM	Alright, I have limited actual experience with these guys, but some initial impressions just from what I've seen and reading from the book Favored Soul: I've only played with one of these guys ever, and he was level 1. At that level at least, I really don't see any reason to choose this class over Cleric. The extra spells per day and being able to spontaneously cast things that aren't cure spells just isn't enough to make up for the tremendous loss of spells known. Throw in the loss of domains and Turning, which disqualifies the class from a lot of the devine PrCs, the limited number of class skills, and 2 abilities needed for effective spellcasting further limit this character's utility. The good reflex saves are nice though, and special abilities picked up at higher levels may help make up for this though. But off of what I've seen so far at least, I'm just not buying it. Hexblade: This class has the potential to be interesting, I think, but it doesn't much apeal to me. Then again, I've never been a big fan of characters that are designed to switch back and forth between martial and arcane abilities. That said, some of the special abilities that the class has look interesting. Still, I've never played with one, and have no intention of making one. Marshall: I have a level 2 Dwarven Marshal (probably one of the 2 worst races to choose for a Marshal, but it fit the concept) and so far I'm enjoying the character immensely. In a lot of ways, this guy is a lot like the Bard. Well-played and with the right auras, he has the potential to be the difference between a decent party and an incredible one, but badly played he's just dead weight. That said, as with the bard, the character's main strength (outside of social skills) is in their ability to really make the other members of the party shine, so you're probably going to get less credit for your contributions than others do. If this is going to be a problem for you, I suggest choosing a different class. Scout: If I had to come up with something to complain about with this class, it would probably be that it's a little too powerful. The number of skills per level are matched only by the Rogue, the selection of special abilities is arguably just as good, maybe even better, and they get a better hit-die. On the down side, skirmish potentially loses a lot of its usefulness once you're having to chose between it and multiple attacks, but going from Scout to Dervish pretty well eliminates this problem. The one minor disadvantage they have is that while they have the Rogue's ability to find traps, disarming them is a cross-class skill. Swashbuckler: Haven't done anything with this one either. Thematically, it seems pretty cool. But as far as stats go, I'm not really seeing too much that this class's abilities give you that make it really better than just going Fighter and taking advantage of the Bonus feats you get that way. Like I said, it's an interesting change from the usual 2-handed-weapon-and-full-plate style of melee combat, but it's not overly powerful. Warmage: I have just 2 problems with the Warmage. 1: there really isn't any room for variation between Warmages, as the class is going to cause them all to be very good at the same exact areas of expertise (then again, I don't like this about Barbarians either). 2: If anything, they're too good within their chosen field. Yes, they have a lot less that they can do outside of providing fire-support, but frankly, sorcerors who were wholely geared towards that same role were perfectly viable and are just completely outclassed in every way by the warmage. I may not like that you can't do anything else with these guys, but if this is what you were going for anyway, you really don't need to be able to.
Shingen 05-31-05, 05:48 PM	I'll throw in my 2 coppers also: Warmage: Bleh. The damage and armor cannot compete with the versatility of the other arcane spellcasters. You can't blast things in every situation. It is better to play a Wizard and memorize more attack spells, because they really aren't vry good fighters. Scout: Awesome. The Scout is fun, and if you get the right feats you can make a pretty cool guerilla fighter. They are a much better class at combat than the rogue, and can do some great stuff. Swashbuckler, as someone else said, is weak at first. At later levels they are good, and get pretty fun. Hexblade: Initially they seem cool, but they just don't really cut it. A sort of secondary fighter or weak paladin, at best. Favored Soul: A very cool concept, and great idea, but not a very good class. They lack the versatility of a Cleric, and some of the better parts. Since the Cleric is probably one of the best classes in the game as is, they don't compete well.
The_Elder 06-01-05, 05:10 AM	Have seen wonderfull adn horid plays of the warmage, and the martal.....boath classes have there downfalls...... I am itiching to paly a warmage.....just for fun The_Elder
waytoomuchcoffee 06-17-05, 01:33 PM	The fact that the Blessed Relief player reward card can't be used by favored souls is another point against them in LG. Why do I keep seeing this strange belief? The card states "the ability to channel positive energy." Cure Light Wounds states "When laying your hand upon a living creature, you channel positive energy..." Not only can FS use this card, so can Bards, Rangers, and Paladins.
Neb Rybel 06-22-05, 05:56 PM	Favored Soul: The big selling point for the Favored Soul is spontaneous casting. But the only spell you really need to have on hand is Cure Minor/Light Wounds (althought at level 3, you can take Lesser Vigor to spontaneously cast). But the typical LG Cleric can do that (not spontaneously cast Vigor, but the stablizing CmW). Hexblade: The Hexblade's Curse needs one of a few things: (1) more uses, (2) higher save DC, (3) partial effect even if saved. As it is now, the Save is going to be too low and there is no really good reason to have a 16 Charisma over a 16 Strength. Marshal: Master of Tactics rocks. Everything with an Intelligence of 3 or higher gets the Marshal's Charisma modifier to damage when flanking. Scout: I have one, it is fun. Most go Archer. The skills aren't that earth shaking. 6 are pretty much spoken for: Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Survival. Then you probably want a few Knowledge skills (nature, geography, and dungeoneering pop out). Swashbuckler: Hmm... Maybe as a Spiked Chain user? I just don't like this class. The 3rd level ability might be nice, but I think it is stupid to not use Strength for a melee weapon for a warrior. Strength pulls triple duty: (1) to hit, (2) damage, (3) weight limits. The 3rd is often blown off, but is very important. My scout/ranger has 76 pound light weight, and that is used up very quickly. Most Swashbucklers aren't Wood Elves, and are probably looking at 56 lb light load (14 Str), but if you already have that kind of load, why are you using Weapon Finesse? Warmage: "Blasting is for newbies." Whatever. Warmages are damn good at it. Think "Archer" with magic instead of arrows. The Lesser Orbs are awesome.
RLWilde 06-25-05, 02:15 AM	Most Swashbucklers aren't Wood Elves, and are probably looking at 56 lb light load (14 Str), but if you already have that kind of load, why are you using Weapon Finesse? I haven't gotten around to it yet, but I've been thinking of recreating an old 2nd Edition character I had... "Montgomery Mounddigger", halfling Swashbuckler. Finesse would surely come in useful there. :)
Kelvar 06-29-05, 10:21 AM	Favored Soul: I've only played with one of these guys ever, and he was level 1. At that level at least, I really don't see any reason to choose this class over Cleric. The extra spells per day and being able to spontaneously cast things that aren't cure spells just isn't enough to make up for the tremendous loss of spells known. Throw in the loss of domains and Turning, which disqualifies the class from a lot of the devine PrCs, the limited number of class skills, and 2 abilities needed for effective spellcasting further limit this character's utility. I was just curious...where does it say that Favored Souls do not have access to domain spells? Or is it simply that it doesn't specifically say that they *do*? I'm currently playing a Favored Soul and our DM hasn't said that I couldn't use domains...and I have been. On the other hand, I have felt that it seems a bit over-powered/unbalanced because one of my domains is fire, which means multiple walls of fire, burning hands, etc. whenever I need them. Can someone direct me to some language in the books that answers this question?
Cardinal Teplin 06-30-05, 07:09 AM	Well... First off there is no particular reason why favoured souls _couldn't_ get domains. As a base class they don't. You could argue that this is an unintentional omission from the rules, but it's fairly comprehensively omitted, to the extent that I doubt it's an accident. There is no particular reason for them to have them, just as there is no particular reason for druids, paladins, or other non-cleric divine casters to have them. However, favoured souls can still gain domains from prestige classes, just as any other caster. Rules for that are in the Complete Divine, near the start of the prestige class section.
Timlagor 06-30-05, 08:53 AM	I don't think even Clerics can cast Domain spells from non-Domain slots can they?
Cardinal Teplin 06-30-05, 09:02 AM	no, they can't, but then domains access for non-clerics doesn't generally get you domain slots, so they generally end up using it as an ordinary spell known.
Timlagor 06-30-05, 09:15 AM	But only one per level per day. Either way you don't get multiples of the domain spells (unless you use them in slots of multiple levels...)
Keerish 07-03-05, 05:51 AM	We have a scout and a war mage at our table and well for lower levels in game the scout can handle it's own and works great going towards dervish. The warmage has trouble keeping up with low hit points and running out of orbs to toss at people. Favored Soul looks interesting but RPGA doesn't give enough in it's point by system for them to be effective in combat. Marshals can break a low level mod with the correct group with them. Pluses to stats, skills, and attacks always help at lower levels. Hex blades are for RP only in my opionion. Their curse effect isn't really effective on characters or npc's with high saves. All in all the new core classes give a different edge to the game that wasn't there before. DCM "My little 2 cents" :mage:
Timlagor 07-03-05, 08:44 AM	The warmage has trouble keeping up with low hit points and running out of orbs to toss at people. The warmage doesn't get orbs until 3rd level. It's inevitable that you aren't going to be able to throw spells every round of combat at very low levels. This will stop being a problem fairly soon though. Then again the Warmage can do respectable damage with cantrips if he has a decent Edge.
RLWilde 07-07-05, 06:48 PM	I don't think even Clerics can cast Domain spells from non-Domain slots can they? Only in a roundabout way... the Domain Spontaneity feat, which requires the ability to Turn Undead.