Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rerednaw 06-26-06, 09:31 AM	Hey folks, I've been playing/running for almost 30 years but this is my first foray into LG. I had a question regarding unbalanced parties. Given the nature of LG a DM cannot expert the archtype mix of rogue, priest, mage and warrior to play a given module. In freeform play the solutions are many. I was wondering how you folks handle it in LG? For example: The module has a enemy camp that can only by found by tracking. No one in the party has Track. The module is heavy undead/combat and the party does not have a priest. The riddle can only be solved by a mage...and no one plays one. Just wondering. Cheers.
SgtHulka 06-26-06, 10:08 AM	Hey folks, I've been playing/running for almost 30 years but this is my first foray into LG. I had a question regarding unbalanced parties. Given the nature of LG a DM cannot expert the archtype mix of rogue, priest, mage and warrior to play a given module. In freeform play the solutions are many. I was wondering how you folks handle it in LG? For example: The module has a enemy camp that can only by found by tracking. No one in the party has Track. The module is heavy undead/combat and the party does not have a priest. The riddle can only be solved by a mage...and no one plays one. Just wondering. Cheers. For the most part the party is SOL. In my experience the Living Greyhawk campaign does not encourage any sort of hand-holding on the part of the Judge, preferring to teach the players the hard way that they need a wide range of requisite abilities. That being said, I've never come across a module that has only one solution to advance the storyline (the exception being that almost all of them require the "solution" of combat to advance the storyline). That's only my experience, though, and I'm interested in others' opinions.
JohnduBois 06-26-06, 11:10 AM	In my experience, the absence of a party role has prevented the party from completing every aspect of a mission, usually leading to the loss of a favor or item. However, the mission is almost always completable with any party mix (although party compositions like two favored souls and two bards may have a really hard time of it). The only exception to this is that there are a number of adventures in LG that cannot be completed by a paladin unless that paladin wants to pay up for an atonement. While other Lawful Good characters can use the "it's for the greater good" excuse, the paladin code prevents, say, agreeing to rescue a demon to prevent a demigod from gaining even more power.
Lupo 06-26-06, 11:49 AM	Hey folks, I've been playing/running for almost 30 years but this is my first foray into LG. I had a question regarding unbalanced parties. Given the nature of LG a DM cannot expert the archtype mix of rogue, priest, mage and warrior to play a given module. In freeform play the solutions are many. I was wondering how you folks handle it in LG? For example: The module has a enemy camp that can only by found by tracking. No one in the party has Track. The module is heavy undead/combat and the party does not have a priest. The riddle can only be solved by a mage...and no one plays one. Just wondering. Cheers. been there, done that :) sometimes a party (especcially at a con) ends up without even near to basic abilities. worst things so far: all casters are playing up TWO levels no full BAB frontliner at apl 6 (where the mod assumes secondary attacks and full BAB melee with strenght 18+) only healer in a mod a druid playing up no one able to speak/read a language that is essential (and no one with comprehend languages or tongues). only arcane caster at the table is a warmage no tracker: sometimes track is the only thing between you and giant crocodiles at apl 4 ;) players that refused to buy basic equipment at low level: some fighter/cleric/rogue types who were reluctant to spend 18 gp on a cold iron long-spear and 22 gp for a silverd dagger and 20 gp for alchemist fire and 10 gp for vials with acid. no one with decent scores in spot or search, another one sometimes used is sense motive and the usual thingy: modules that assume silver/magic/coldiron/adamantine and any combination of those weapons at apls below 8 some thingies that are not as problematic as they look: undead heavy module and no cleric: most clerics (apart of radiant servants of power cheese) just don't waste time with turning attemtps, the more serious thingy needed is restoration AFTER the undead are put to final rest. trap loaded module: mostly non-existent, and in dire cases a raging barbarian makes a perfect trap locator ;) diplomatic modules: they exist !!!!! around one out of ten. ciao martin m.
Namarus 06-26-06, 12:16 PM	While other Lawful Good characters can use the "it's for the greater good" excuse, the paladin code prevents, say, agreeing to rescue a demon to prevent a demigod from gaining even more power. I think that is a rubbish excuse. Would a paladin refuse to save a grossly evil person from a burning building? Of course he should save that evil person. A paladin does not judge the person/thing needing rescue by their alignment. It is the deed that counts.
Namarus 06-26-06, 12:20 PM	Hey folks, I've been playing/running for almost 30 years but this is my first foray into LG. I had a question regarding unbalanced parties. Given the nature of LG a DM cannot expert the archtype mix of rogue, priest, mage and warrior to play a given module. In freeform play the solutions are many. I was wondering how you folks handle it in LG? For example: The module has a enemy camp that can only by found by tracking. No one in the party has Track. The module is heavy undead/combat and the party does not have a priest. The riddle can only be solved by a mage...and no one plays one. Just wondering. Cheers. Another interesting module that I played. You only get the item needed to complete the module by going through a dream sequence. Party full of elves. Elves = no sleep = no item = failed module.
Maesto 06-27-06, 07:50 PM	One of the funnest modules I've ever played was a year 3 metaregional (Iuz - Infiltration). Playing at APL 8, we had three sorcerors, two wizards, and a level 6 druid. All was well until we ran into a golem.
ShinAkuma2 06-27-06, 09:00 PM	One of the funnest modules I've ever played was a year 3 metaregional (Iuz - Infiltration). Playing at APL 8, we had three sorcerors, two wizards, and a level 6 druid. All was well until we ran into a golem. I hope you brought your +1 adamantine daggers.
clik_ml 06-27-06, 09:52 PM	Or their multiude of utility spells which would allow simple bypassing or trapping of said golem or the SR immune damage spells. Golems are scarier for melee guys than mages. I'd imagine a party like that could have some real fun messing with the golem.
JohnduBois 06-27-06, 10:46 PM	One of the funnest modules I've ever played was a year 3 metaregional (Iuz - Infiltration). Playing at APL 8, we had three sorcerors, two wizards, and a level 6 druid. All was well until we ran into a golem. Ah, Infiltration. I think that adventure was best at APL 4, where I played it. They give you the adamantine weapons to fight the golem. Then, if you take them out of the crypt, you get to keep the weapon (e.g. free adamantine weapon!), but then all of Iuz's minions target you and have a 5% chance of getting aid and true strike against you for a year. So good...
Maesto 06-28-06, 04:18 AM	This was in the days of "You've got PHB spells and not much else, unless you were lucky enough to play a year 2 module that gave you access to lesser sonic orb". Nowadays there's too many spells that just ignore SR, to my way of thinking at least. Jolyon
Sutro 06-28-06, 10:26 AM	Mod failure is simply a part of LG. If you're playing at an imbalanced table, you're assuming the risk that you will not have all the elements needed to complete the module and at a much higher risk for death and unrecoverable death. Ken Jenks wrote up an excellent list on lg_chardiscussion (I think) of all the items a character needs to have at what levels to play to an LG optimal level and what you'll need to have to keep your character from going unrecoverable when you're failing a mod. These are especially vital in all meta-regional modules, where I've found that the power level is significantly higher than in regionals or cores. Speaking as someone who's permanently lost two characters so far this year, I wish I had seen his advice sooner. -Morgan Nashville
Lomiat 06-28-06, 10:41 AM	This was in the days of "You've got PHB spells and not much else, unless you were lucky enough to play a year 2 module that gave you access to lesser sonic orb". Nowadays there's too many spells that just ignore SR, to my way of thinking at least. Jolyon Grease, Web, Stone Shape, Wall of Force, Summon Monster, Evard's Black Tentacles, Animal Growth (for the druid's animal companion), Summon Nature's Ally, etc., etc. Golems are tricky for casters, but not too rough (unless they can fly).
Puggle Halfwine 06-28-06, 11:15 AM	Ken Jenks wrote up an excellent list on lg_chardiscussion (I think) of all the items a character needs to have at what levels to play to an LG optimal level and what you'll need to have to keep your character from going unrecoverable when you're failing a mod. Do you think you could provide a link to this? One of my secondaries prides himself on his usefulness. He's currently stocking up on 6x "Vashan's Complete Adventuring Kit"; an approximately 400gp collection of mundane items which just come in *handy*. Antitoxen, smokesticks, lengths of chain, stretchers, etc. The idea is he'll eventually buy six of them and, at the beginning of every adventure, just hand out six printed out lists and go "You all have these".
Maesto 06-28-06, 11:19 AM	Screw the link, can you copy/paste it in here? ;-)
Lupo 06-28-06, 01:57 PM	Do you think you could provide a link to this? One of my secondaries prides himself on his usefulness. He's currently stocking up on 6x "Vashan's Complete Adventuring Kit"; an approximately 400gp collection of mundane items which just come in *handy*. Antitoxen, smokesticks, lengths of chain, stretchers, etc. The idea is he'll eventually buy six of them and, at the beginning of every adventure, just hand out six printed out lists and go "You all have these". does it inclued an all terrain, all planes carry all??? :confused: otherwise the str 6 wizzies will look at you with big round eyes :rolleyes: nevermind some of the gear is good to have ONE in the party :) ciao martin m.
Prochytes 06-28-06, 02:28 PM	Grease, Web, Stone Shape, Wall of Force, Summon Monster, Evard's Black Tentacles, Animal Growth (for the druid's animal companion), Summon Nature's Ally, etc., etc. Golems are tricky for casters, but not too rough (unless they can fly). Valid points, but I do not think you are giving enough weight to the circumstances that Maesto described. Let us look at the spells you suggested: Grease - great spell against golems, indeed, but not helping you to do damage to the thing (unless you get it to skid off a cliff). Web - Again a good one, but context-specific (no good outdoors without convenient trees, for instance - although for all I know the module described was indoors). And again, not getting anywhere with the damage-doing. Stone shape - Still no damage, and again context-specific. No stone, no spell. Wall of force - 5th level spell, so anyone casting it at APL 8 is playing down (though not by much). Still no damage. Summon monster/nature's ally - The lists are not exactly stuffed with creatures that get past DR/adamantine, especially at the lower levels. They could grapple it, though. Evard's Black Tentacles - Great spell, and it does do damage. Under 3.0, though, the tentacles were still vulnerable to damage themselves, which the golem may well dish out in quantity. Golems are likely to do well on the grapple check, too. Animal growth - which the druid from the example (6th level) would not be able to cast. Do not get me wrong: I fully endorse your point that there are and always have been ways for ingenious casters to trounce magic immunity and disable or get past golems (and defeating the challenge this way should of course net full xp). But under 3.0, destroying golems (if that were necessary for one reason or another) was indeed harder. These days, of course, glitterdust and the orbs soon see them off.
Lomiat 06-28-06, 02:53 PM	Points all well taken, but consider also: 1) Nearly any encounter featuring Golems is likely to take place indoors (for Web) as they are mindless creatures typically used as guardians/sentries, etc. 2) The purpose of a golem encounter is rarely going to be to "destroy" the golem so much as to "defeat" it--in other words, to bypass it, to continue the adventure around it. As they are mindless, golems tend not to be the evil masterminds behind the plots. In most cases, if the players were willing to carry on the adventure without actually destroying the golem (a reasonable concern: whether or not they'd just do their job instead of go for the ego-boosting kill), all they would need to do is delay the golem. 3) Wizards can cast Animal Growth as a 5th level spell. 4) Companions and summoned monsters can serve as delay-bait in times of need. Golems tend not to have such sophisticated tactics as to ignore the big things biting at them in order to hunt down the wizards carrying on with the rest of their adventure.
Prochytes 06-28-06, 03:46 PM	Points all well taken, but consider also: 1) Nearly any encounter featuring Golems is likely to take place indoors (for Web) as they are mindless creatures typically used as guardians/sentries, etc. 2) The purpose of a golem encounter is rarely going to be to "destroy" the golem so much as to "defeat" it--in other words, to bypass it, to continue the adventure around it. As they are mindless, golems tend not to be the evil masterminds behind the plots. In most cases, if the players were willing to carry on the adventure without actually destroying the golem (a reasonable concern: whether or not they'd just do their job instead of go for the ego-boosting kill), all they would need to do is delay the golem. 3) Wizards can cast Animal Growth as a 5th level spell. 4) Companions and summoned monsters can serve as delay-bait in times of need. Golems tend not to have such sophisticated tactics as to ignore the big things biting at them in order to hunt down the wizards carrying on with the rest of their adventure. All reasonable points (as with wall of force, the 9th level wizard for animal growth would be playing down, but not to a significant degree). I think that you are also quite right that there are very few circumstances in which destroying the golem is the priority, and I can only think off-hand of two encounters from all of my ARs where they were encountered outside (not including the one I wrote myself :D ).
Lomiat 06-28-06, 05:49 PM	I think that you are also quite right that there are very few circumstances in which destroying the golem is the priority, and I can only think off-hand of two encounters from all of my ARs where they were encountered outside (not including the one I wrote myself :D ). From an author's standpoint, it stands to reason that you wouldn't see golems outside since, unless they're part of a general siege, they're not as useful when opponents can use ranged tactics and/or run away. Most golems are simply close-quarters brutes and do little else if their opponents are flying, firing arrows from safe distances, spring-attacking, spirited-charging, or simply avoiding them. Thus, you squeeze the combat into as tiny a box as possible. (And though golems might make nice defensive walls as part of a larger troop, they're generally CR'd to fight as solitary creatures or as part of a small group [2 or 3]; if you put them in a bigger crowd, their attack, damage, and AC don't scale up quite as nicely as a humanoid fighter's, for example. Except, of course, that golems don't have to make Will saves.)
kjenks 06-29-06, 09:25 AM	http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/LGDMs/message/10203 This thread sparked a long, healthy discussion about what DMs and players expect from each other. === APL gives a reasonable idea about what combat capabilities we can expect from a party. But what about their non-combat capabilities? What should we expect? We know pretty much what to expect from adventuring party in an intro mod. They might have had one or two adventures under their belts, but they might all be fresh starting characters. So we DMs can't expect them to have magical weapons or even scrolls and potions, since those can't be purchased until the character gets his first AR. They can't deal at all well with incorporeal opponents, opponents with high damage reduction, or flying opponents with ranged weapons. After the end of their first adventure, I expect every player character to invest in some disposable items. Every single PC. There is some gear that is absolutely indispensible to survival at all APLs. Everyone should have a way of inflicting damage at a distance. This can be a ranged weapon, flasks of oil, some scrolls or a wand. Everyone should have a potion of CLW. This can be used to stabilize PCs who are at negative HP, especially for the unconcious cleric who is the only one in the party who can cast a Cure spell. Everyone should have a Potion of Invisibility. This enables sneaking away from an encounter gone bad, or sneaking past guards, if someone gets captured, or sneaking into a fortified place, as required by many plots. If there's even one PC in a party who can't go invisible, that PC can be a major impediment to party survival. If we all get in trouble and we want to bug out invisibly, we are forced into a decision about abandoning that PC or fighting an encounter beyond what we, as a party, think is reasonable. Almost everyone should have a smokestick (or some other way of generating obscurement, like a scroll of Obscuring Mist), a light source, and a way to light a fire. All spellcasters should have a back-up spell component pouch in case their primary gets stolen or destroyed. Everyone who uses weapons should have a back-up weapon in case their primary gets stolen or destroyed. As a DM (and as a player), I expect every single LG character to have that kind of gear before his second AR. If he doesn't have it, I have a helpful NPC suggest it to him during the game and I try to find a way to let them go shopping. This stuff is really vital for character survival when things go bad. And because this is, in part, a game of chance, things will go bad sometimes. At APL 4 and above every single PC should have a way to breath underwater and a way to fly (or Spider Climb, at a minimum). Every character who uses weapons should have a magical weapon. Depending on the region, they should have cold iron and silver weapons -- but always when playing a Core, since those can go almost anywhere. There should be at least one Silence spell in the party, from an item, on a scroll or prepared. I expect an APL 4 party to be able to scout out an encounter and bypass it if it looks too dangerous. I expect See Invisibility in the party, prepared or on a scroll. I expect the melee guys to win almost every combat, with the spellcasters helping out a little. At APL 8 and above, every single PC should have a way to get out of a locked cage, like a Potion of Gaseous Form or teleportation. Everyone must be able to fly. At least someone in the party needs to have a way to see in the dark, like darkvision or a bat familiar. I expect Invisibility Purge in the party, prepared or on a scroll. At least someone in the party should have a Potion of Lesser Restoration (since the scroll and the spell take so long to cast). I expect all APL 8+ characters to have some magic items that they loan out to their buddies, like a Pearl of Power or like, "My fighter likes to get enlarged sometimes. Please have your sorcerer decipher this scroll of Enlarge Person (Read Magic or Spellcraft DC 20) so that you can cast it on me in combat, if you have time." I expect all characters to tell the other characters in their party about any magic items which could be of use, like wands and potions, and to have a list of other characters' scrolls they have deciphered in advance (so we don't have to deal with that stuff during combat). I expect Haste in round 1. I expect the melee guys to win most of the combats, but the spellcasters play a major supporting roll. At APL 10 and above, I expect every party to have Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, and Restoration, at least in scroll form. I expect the whole party to be able to sleep in a Rope Trick spell or otherwise not have to deal with wandering encounters at night unless they want to. I expect that there will be at least one character who flies all the time, and at least one character who hides or remains invisible all the time. I expect the party to be able to make some outrageous skill checks, with a bit of preparation, using something like Imbue with Spell Ability to grant the ability to cast Divine Insight. I expect enough savvy about the plot of an LG scenario that the players would have a good guess as to when to employ such a tactic. I expect tactics like centering multiple Fireball spells on the Greater Invis rogue (with evasion, a good Relfex save and a reroll) and the tanked-up fighter (with Spell Immunity to Fireball). I expect the melee guys and the spellcasters to be about equally valuable and effective in winning battles. At APL 12 and above, every single PC should have a way to penetrate a locked, guarded facility and to get out again. This could be as simple as two potions of Gaseous Form or two Dimension Door spells. I expect all-day buff spells like Empower Spell + False Life, Greater Magic Fang, Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestments. I expect bard song, Mass Fly, Mass Fireshield, Mass Conviction, Mass Shield of Faith, or some other way to buff up the whole party in a hurry. I expect Greater Invisibility. I expect See Invisibility or True Seeing to be used often. I expect each spellcaster to have a way to do something useful inside a Silence spell cast by an opponent. I expect every character to be able to disguise himself as someone else for long enough to get through a well-guarded door. Given enough prep time, I expect the party to have a way to buff up and support one character so that he can pretty much take on any normal combat all by himself. I expect the whole party to be able to fly with little expenditure of resources. I expect enough long-range firepower that the flying party can take out almost any encounter of non-flying monsters from the air in three rounds or less. I expect fighters who want Haste to have Boots of Speed or a cohort who casts it on them, rather than relying on the party wizard to spend his valuable time casting a low-level spell. I expect each character to have a way of inflicting moderate damage to a tough creature in an Antimagic Field. I expect all APL 12+ parties to have Heroes' Feast going all through the adventuring day. I expect spellcasters to dominate each combat, but the melee guys still making a contribution. I expect several monsters to be rendered ineffective without taking any damage (charm, domination, paralysis, walled off from combat, whatever). At APL 14, I expect Heroes' Feast 24x7. I expect Quicken Spell, Twin Spell, Split Ray and Repeat Spell so that most spellcasters will be casting multiple effects for a round or two. I expect one or more Brilliant Energy weapons or the Brilliant Aura spell, so an opponent with armor and shield will have little real protection. I expect that the party will have a way to share Target: You spells (a weapon or Ring of Spell Storing, an Ioun Stone) like Shield or False Life, and I expect that they will do this often. I expect melee characters to hold off the monsters long enough for the spellcasters to win each combat, with the melee guys doing comparatively little damage. So if you have an adventuring party that isn't performing up to your expectations, you might try having a friendly NPC step in and talk to the characters about what can be expected of them and how they can be more prepared. Or you can talk to the players, out of character. Although sometimes nothing will prevent disaster, adequate preparation can greatly reduce the chance of a TPK. === As you can see, I have high expectations. What are yours?
Iswald 06-29-06, 10:17 AM	As you can see, I have high expectations. What are yours? I haven't really thought about them. But, they're clearly much lower and much more realistic. :)
Oogar 06-29-06, 10:48 AM	High expectations are fine, it gives something for which to strive. I see where many of those expectations mesh with my own, though some seem high to me. That doesn't mean I think they are not appropriate goals. And if a person who writes mods feels that way... Well, it would probably be a good idea to at least aknowledge those expectations when thinking about playing one of those Modules. Now, anyone who makes mods to burn through people's consumables is just mean spirited, but being prepared for these situations is simply wise. Edit. I guess my only additional expectation is that people know their characters, and how they can work best with other different characters in the group.
Rerednaw 06-29-06, 11:40 AM	Thanks all for the tips and advice. I'll be sure to mention it to the players, since most of them are completely new to D&D/LG and LG is not a very forgiving environment. Some of the consumables listed above are pretty pricey. With only 1 AR for most of them (plus the new ones being rolled up for this game) it may be a bit tough to come up with most of the equipment. Especially the ones they don't have access to (wands, etc.). I did mention that bringing a riding dog or similar was advised and this gives me more to work with. Cheers.
JohnduBois 06-29-06, 01:05 PM	When Ken first posted his list, I had a LOT of problems with it. Looking at it again and considering my characters' progress, I have the following comments to make regarding it. 1. Remember that this is what Ken considers to be the "safe track" equipment list and that rarely will more than one of these items be used in an adventure. In fact, in most, they won't be used at all. My bard went 11 levels without ever missing having a way to breathe underwater or fly. Then he got teleported to the middle of the Nyr Dyv and a squid tried to grapple him. Keep in mind that without a way to breathe underwater or fly, that's not just death. That's permanent character loss. 2. Invis, silence, and obscurement are all things that should be picked up as soon as humanly possible. This is especially true of obscurement. It's cheap, and it cripples any combat where you fight a large number of rogues (which seems to be occuring a decent amount in Core adventures). 3. I think the "Death Ward, Restoration, Freedom of Movement" requirement is, frankly, insane. It's quite helpful, but two of those spells are cleric-only, and you can't rely on always having a cleric. Moreover, those scrolls require access to purchase. I agree that they're huge, but a "requirement"? Insane. And I'm saying that having seen death ward armor on two (maybe three) different ARs. 4. Another requirement I have is that each player and character be fully aware of what abilities and favors their characters have. I've seen far too many parties fail because someone "forgot they could do that". For example, I've run a table where the entire party except the bard fell prey to a sonic effect, and the bard ran because he forgot he could countersong. This is just not acceptable at any APL. 5. I recommend that every player know in what circumstances certain abilities become broken with common tactics of other players. Dropping another bard-ish example in, using the Warchanter's Inspire Recklessness ability allows a fighter to Power Attack for full and essentially retain their full attack bonus. Tactics such as these can save a party. Know them. Love them. I believe that knowing your abilities is as important if not more important than your equipment. In my experience, the tables that failed were the ones that didn't know their own powers or how their powers could work together. You're a team unit as a party. Act like it.
kjenks 06-29-06, 02:17 PM	When Ken first posted his list, I had a LOT of problems with it. Looking at it again and considering my characters' progress, I have the following comments to make regarding it. 1. Remember that this is what Ken considers to be the "safe track" equipment list and that rarely will more than one of these items be used in an adventure. In fact, in most, they won't be used at all. My bard went 11 levels without ever missing having a way to breathe underwater or fly. Then he got teleported to the middle of the Nyr Dyv and a squid tried to grapple him. Keep in mind that without a way to breathe underwater or fly, that's not just death. That's permanent character loss. That's EXACTLY what' I'm talking about. I hope your bard survived. It's a very rare encounter when anybody absolutely must use one of my recommended consumable items in order to survive. But by the time a character retires from the campaign, he'll have more than 100 ARs and he'll face all sorts of "very rare encounters" along the way. 3. I think the "Death Ward, Restoration, Freedom of Movement" requirement is, frankly, insane. It's quite helpful, but two of those spells are cleric-only, and you can't rely on always having a cleric. Moreover, those scrolls require access to purchase. I agree that they're huge, but a "requirement"? Insane. And I'm saying that having seen death ward armor on two (maybe three) different ARs. Insane, am I? I am but mad north-north-west. When the wind is southerly, I know a hawk from a handsaw. You need Death Ward when fighting masses of incorporeal level-sucking undead. You need Restoration after fighting a dozen different monsters, especially if you're on a tight time schedule and can't rest or go to town for healing. Anybody who fights grappling monsters needs Freedom of Movement, and at APL 10+, every third monster has Improved Grab or 15 ft. reach and a grapple check in the 30s, so you WILL be fighting grappling monsters. At APL 10 and above, you'd be insane not to have a cleric in the party, or if you tried really hard and you can't muster a cleric and for some reason you absolutely MUST play that game on that day, you'd be insane not to have some other way to cast these spells. A 9th druid can cast both Freedom of Movement and Death Ward. An 11th paladin can cast Restoration. Scrolls of Freedom of Movement and Death Ward are available in LG as core access. A scroll of Restoration is a little harder to come by, giving yet another reason never to leave home without a cleric. But if you're playing APL 10 or above with no divine casters, well, you're way more insane than I am.
Lomiat 06-29-06, 03:19 PM	Personally, I don't mind a lopsided table. I've played, now, at a few too many tables that were overpowered--so extremely well-balanced, with tweaked PCs played by capable players that the mods scarcely offered us a challenge. I look forward to the challenge of helping a lopsided table to survive. My favorite example of "lopsided" is the time I played at an APL 8 table with 3 arcane casters (and one was playing up on her way to arcane trickster, thus, even weaker than most casters), one archer cleric (mostly self-buffing), and a 3rd level dwarven fighter. We walked through the mod, but we never felt invincible. As a player, I want the others at my table, more than any equipment they own, to know how their characters can best aid our specific party. For example, monks tend to play differently from table to table, depending on buff spells and the presence/absence of standard high-AC or high-damage fighters. If you have two arcance casters at a table, you'd expect the one with the higher Init to do the buffing and the one with the higher save DC to cast the spells to affect the bad guys. In other words, when I sit down to a table and want my character to survive, I want to know how the other PCs will best help me and how I can best help them. This includes: character features, tactics, spell selection, and team play. A good plan that incorporates these elements will help compensate for many otherwise "bad" tables. This is also why my NG 2nd-lvl cleric with 8 str, 8 dex and 8 con will enter melee with a longspear to flank and fight defensively to add to another's AC/atk. He's doing his part...
JohnduBois 06-29-06, 04:31 PM	That's EXACTLY what' I'm talking about. I hope your bard survived. Thankfully, I did. Turns out that Grease can work in a pinch if Freedom of Movement isn't available (and you DM rolls natural 1s at exactly the right time). Scrolls of Freedom of Movement and Death Ward are available in LG as core access. Well, crap. That's what I get for not paying enough attention. *hurriedly marks down things on his "buy for bard" list to accompany the scroll of Restoration he just got access to* Also something else I want to add to the "must have" list: EVERY cleric who is able MUST prep at least one Delay Death a day. If you need a "go-to-Baator" plan, there's nothing better.
Lomiat 06-29-06, 04:44 PM	Also something else I want to add to the "must have" list: EVERY cleric who is able MUST prep at least one Delay Death a day. If you need a "go-to-Baator" plan, there's nothing better. Yeah, Delay Death is just ridiculous. I've now seen at least one mod that specifically changes an encounter based on if a BBG successfully spellcrafts a Delay Death, heard of one table that effectively turned its fighter into the banned Frenzied Berserker, and heard talk of a number of other people contemplating builds to take advantage of the Endurance/Die Hard/Delay Death loophole. Personally, I think any bad guy who successfully spellcrafts Delay Death has every reason in the world to target the cleric who cast it until that cleric is dead-dead. That said, it's a great spell and (until it's banned) needs to be among every cleric's available 4th-level spells.
Mommy was an Orc 06-29-06, 05:42 PM	I think that list is a good idea, but... That's a huge percentage of overall wealth for things that are only one-shot helpful in specific emergancies. Putting that much wealth into items such as that is just as likely to cause a general emergancy as it is to get you out of a specific one. I mean, you're telling a party of 6 that at 4th level, they should have spent 4500 gold on 6 potions when that same party can cover the same ground most of the time with 2 scrolls for 750 gold. Having 3750 gold to say spend on additional scrolls and maybe a wand or two goes a really long way... As you can see, I have high expectations. What are yours?
JamesMaissen 06-30-06, 06:10 PM	I think that list is a good idea, but... That's a huge percentage of overall wealth for things that are only one-shot helpful in specific emergancies. Putting that much wealth into items such as that is just as likely to cause a general emergancy as it is to get you out of a specific one. I mean, you're telling a party of 6 that at 4th level, they should have spent 4500 gold on 6 potions when that same party can cover the same ground most of the time with 2 scrolls for 750 gold. Having 3750 gold to say spend on additional scrolls and maybe a wand or two goes a really long way... I think people (on the other list mainly) tend to overreact to Ken's list. Remove the 'musts' and 'shoulds' and just look at what's listed out. There are prices associated with all of them and you have choices to make. But with this list they are more informed choices. Do I spend 150gp on a scroll of command undead? No? Don't be upset when the perfect situation for it shows up and you have to suffer for it's lack. The rule of thumb I use is 'should the situation come up when it's needed would you begrudge the price?'. For example imagine facing an EL+3 encounter from a summoned creature that's tearing apart your party.. would you in retrospect have purchased that 50gp potion of protection from evil to be able to not be attacked by it? I certainly would. Having a list of such things is very important. I've encountered things like runic guardians at low APL where a simple Horn of Fog let us walk by it after we determined there was no way we were going to be defeating it directly. A scroll of obscuring mist or even smoke sticks could have done the same thing. For lack of something like that the alternative (leaving the module half done or getting slaughtered) was certainly not desirable. Another big factor to throw into all of this is making purchases that you perhaps cannot use directly but the table normally could find of use. In a retired module my halfling got access to 1st level potions of enlarge person. Typically in a big fight he reduces himself, so enlarge certainly is not an option for him.. yet seeing the access I bought over a dozen of those potions to hand out to those in the party that could find use from them. Being aware of what consumables and the like are out there is very important. The difference you can make with many of them can be the difference between a TPK and sailing through unscathed. With such a list you can atleast be fully aware of your choices and afterwards can tell the party 'I know 3 of us died, but that 150gp scroll seemed too pricy to me'. ;) -James
solbergb 06-30-06, 07:46 PM	My take on consumables is that there is no excuse not to have the cheap ones your character can use, from the very first adventure AR. Ie, a fighter type wants a silver weapon (20gp, can be added retroactively to his armor spikes, his dagger, whatever), a cold iron weapon and a reach weapon (buy a cold iron reach weapon for 10-20gp). He needs at least javelins for a missile weapon (if he's very strong, a bow is often a bad idea until 1000gp for a +4 masterwork strength comp bow seems cheap). He needs oil of magic weapon and oil of bless weapon. He should carry a club if he has no other blunt weapons, and at least one weapon should be slashing. A half dozen flasks of oil or so for any swarms he runs into at low levels is also a good thing, plus some tindertwigs and a sunrod if he can't see in the dark arleady. He also needs a potion of clw and a potion of prot evil If he does that, he's spent about 300gp, and is covered for encounters with lycanthropes, demons, devils, vampires, fey, incorporeals, all the templated DR/magic critters, he can stabilize someone downed (or be stabilized by a BDF who didn't buy his own potion) and he can keep from being dominated and attacking the party. Every class has about 300gp of stuff they can buy on the first AR that does similar good things. As mentioned before, obscuring mist is on almost every caster's spell list, and it is 25gp for a 20' radius 1 minute smokescreen, nerfing sneak attack, ranged attacks, preventing spirited charges, eliminating reach AOO's (cause they can't see past 5')...the list just goes on and on. Unbalanced parties cope because they don't assume the party spellcaster is going to be there to hold their hand. So fighters can make their own weapons magical, tripfighters and grapplers eventually carry potions of enlarge person (at 250gp it is pricey until apl 8ish), everyone carries a few scrolls of buffs they hope someone else can cast on them and most casters have a small stash of "buff up in a hurry" and "if this thing happens I'm ready" scrolls for specific situations they can't handle with their normal mix. A really unbalanced party that starts in a populated area may have a run on the local potion or scroll shop, as folks buy consumables and use them to load down the magic domain cleric, the UMD rogue or just get "mage in a bottle" for whatever they feel the party is lacking. They may also shift around their usual role some - maybe the druid racks a few more lesser vigor spells, than usual because the party lacks any wands of clw, the back-rank archer or cleric realize that in this party they are the tough guy and assume the tank role, the whole party realizes that while lacking an arcane and a tank, they are all extremely stealthy and good at ranged combat and emphasize scouting and ambush in their tactics. I love the random nature of LG parties. It keeps my thinking fresh and puts my characters in new situations every adventure. As a judge, it is also really cool to see how differently modules play with differnet table mixes. It isn't just the build either. My and my wife's first characters were Pale Pholtans and their adventuring parties were quite well behaved. When we started playing more chaotic characters, suddenly it became clear that the AVERAGE adventurer party is a lot more pragmatic, flexible and er, "not nice" than the sorts that our Pholtans see (when together...there has to be a critical mass of a certain type of character to "infect" the party. A party with 5 rogue types and a paladin will likely be a trial for the paladin.....when only one Pholtan is at the table, it doesn't change behavior. Two-three...the chaotic guys tend to tread more lightly)
Mommy was an Orc 07-01-06, 10:20 AM	My take on consumables is that there is no excuse not to have the cheap ones your character can use, from the very first adventure AR. Ie, a fighter type wants a silver weapon (20gp, can be added retroactively to his armor spikes, his dagger, whatever), a cold iron weapon and a reach weapon (buy a cold iron reach weapon for 10-20gp). He needs at least javelins for a missile weapon (if he's very strong, a bow is often a bad idea until 1000gp for a +4 masterwork strength comp bow seems cheap). He needs oil of magic weapon and oil of bless weapon. He should carry a club if he has no other blunt weapons, and at least one weapon should be slashing. A half dozen flasks of oil or so for any swarms he runs into at low levels is also a good thing, plus some tindertwigs and a sunrod if he can't see in the dark arleady. He also needs a potion of clw and a potion of prot evil If he does that, he's spent about 300gp, and is covered for encounters with lycanthropes, demons, devils, vampires, fey, incorporeals, all the templated DR/magic critters, he can stabilize someone downed (or be stabilized by a BDF who didn't buy his own potion) and he can keep from being dominated and attacking the party. While this isn't quite what I would do, this is much more along the lines of what I'm thinking about. I tend to try to get permanent replacements and I assume others in the party can be handed things at times. An example of this is my Monk 2 got a 2-handed MW Silver Greatsword after her first mod. I'm not proficient with it(yet), but it solves a few problems: Gives me a weapon for when I can't flurry and I want to do a lot of damage - 2d6+3 is essentially an additional +3.5 damage at a cost of +3 to hit. As I like to call it, 'Monk Power Attack'. I can also expect to bang my way through DR 5/?, which isn't true of 1d6+3 When the primary fighter of the party doesn't have a silver weapon when needed, I can hand it to him and try to do other things such as Grappling or Trips(cold iron spiked chain, don't need Improved Trip to try to trip someone and +4 to hit a prone opponent with the Greatsword nicely cancels out the -4 proficiency penalty). It is a weapon I can eventually enchant. When I get to 4th level and pick up Paladin levels, I'll be proficient with it.
solbergb 07-05-06, 02:58 PM	Usually a purchase like that sword is what I do on the 2nd and 3rd modules. First make sure the party won't die from some key element missing (you can always hand it to or buff up the weapon of the best fighter in the party, if it isn't you). Then make sure you work better in your primary role. As someone whose monk carries a mw spiked chain that he bought at level 3, and still uses at level 12, I appreciate the thought and the point. You just want to avoid the nightmare situation (from a real example) Level 4 character has spent every penny of his wealth on a +1 something-bane weapon. Because he lacks basic consumables AND has no armor, saving throw gear or anything else a L4 person might be expected to have, he dies. He then has to sell back his 8000gp item to pay for the raise. Now he's level 3, and went without gear from level 1-4 for nothing. When you do without the cheap basics, you are gambling that you won't need them until you get around to buying them. I do this sometimes, but you'll never see a level 2+ character of mine lacking a 20-25gp item that he needs to handle a basic category of enemy (or in the case of spellcasters, a basic category of threat - that 25gp obscuring mist scroll covers most sneak-attackers, charge-monsters and archers....one of the biggest bargains in the game). My experience is based on the fact that in my very first intro mod, DR/silver or good came up, and I've had myriad intro mods and APL2 mods where one of the various DR-penetrators was needed, and several where the DR was 10, and not something you can beat with raw muscle at level 1. Where I draw the line compared to the Ken Jenks's "I'll have anything I can afford to cover any emergency" approach is where we draw the line at "what is cheap". For me it is more like "anything under 50gp". For him it is more like "anything up to half the gold you earn in a module". I reserve the >50gp consumables for "I will not begrudge the cost when I need it" kinda stuff. I've never owned a potion or scroll of invisibility, for example, and my monk bought his first potion of fly only when he got boots of speed at L12 that conflicted with his boots of spider climb. My sorc DOES have a scroll of circle of invis, because sometimes it is extraordinarily useful to have the entire party invisible. Likewise command undead might save her half her spell slots of chipping away on a giant zombie, worth 150gp, especially since it almost never comes up, but ends the encoutner when it does.
solbergb 07-05-06, 03:10 PM	Or their multiude of utility spells which would allow simple bypassing or trapping of said golem or the SR immune damage spells. Golems are scarier for melee guys than mages. I'd imagine a party like that could have some real fun messing with the golem. Yeah. My sorcerer loves golems. They grapple crappy for their size, they can't balance and can't make reflex saves. They end up rapidly prone and tied up by evards much of the time. They are also so stupid it is very hard for them to force you to fight them at all - and they almost never treat the sorcerer as a priority target, even to the point (depending on programming) where you can usually go around and provide a flank risk free. If they ARE programmed to detect and kill spellcasters, they're in even worse shape, since a sorc is so much more mobile, you can lead them through a train of AOO's. If the party can't figure out how to kill a prone, grappled golem somehow, it truly sucks. However having been in such a party, my sorcerer now has an adamantine sickle and whirling blade :) (it works about as well as magic missiling something to death...it's slow but it works on prone, grappled targets pretty well) Most Sorcs just get an orb spell of some kind, but that didn't fit my theme.
Prochytes 07-05-06, 04:11 PM	One of my sorcerer's first and most consistently useful magic item purchases was her +1 adamantine ghost touch heavy mace. This, of course, has been for lending to other people. One of my most treasured exchanges, as the party fighter laid into a lich with the borrowed weapon: DM: What sort of sorcerer owns a +1 adamantine ghost touch heavy mace? Player of fighter: My favourite sort... This is not to say that she does not go into melee where appropriate; indeed, in the course of her 82 ARs she has made melee attacks on literally five opponents, namely: A turned zombie A noniz sorcerer A fiendish octopus (regular size, not giant) A kobold sorcerer A hamatula (Spot the odd one out. It was an AoO in a very bad situation indeed...)
Lomiat 07-05-06, 05:04 PM	Now that my wizard's finally reached the breaking point where the mods offer significantly more GP than XP, I plan to start crafting his weapons. He's already enchanted a bow to +1 and soon intends to make it a +1 Ghost Touch Holy Bane (Undead) weapon--to express his whole 6 STR worth of love for shadows and other incorporeal undead. Also, he's got a spiked gauntlet (crafted from a dragon's fang) he intends to turn into a +1 spellstoring weapon, most likely to carry Vampiric Touches and Empowered Rays of Enfeeblement--to express his love of grapples (with a quickened true strike, right before Dim Dooring away on a later round). And with a Contingency (polymorph) and Tenser's, he actually plans to put a later weapon to use (adamantine sounds yummy). But all of this requires next year's TUs. In the meantime, the best toys he has to lend out are a Medallion of Detect Thoughts (for a party scout) and a Hat of Disguise. (Both of which he uses to meander about cities learning stuff--that people might otherwise not want him to learn--and gambling when not adventuring.)