New Occult Slayer Build [Archive] - Wizards Community

New Occult Slayer Build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Necrochaos
06-09-06, 11:44 PM Dwarf deity-Gendwar Argrim
Str 14
Dex 8
Con 18
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 14

1-Hexblade -Power Attack
2-Hexblade
3-Hexblade -Weapon Focus (Dwarven Waraxe)
4-Fighter -Improve Initiative
5-Fighter
6-Occult Slayer

I'm not sure what to do from here. This is my first attempt at a build and was curious to see what otheres thought.

With this build you get the dwarf spell bonuses along with the Hexblade and Occult Slayer bonus. Also did this at work without books, only Heroforge
DuctShuiTengu
06-10-06, 03:58 PM For an Occult Slayer, I'd generally advise going either TWF with a double weapon (the Urgosh being a good candidate for Dwarves) or Archery to do a better job of taking advantage of the extra damage against enemies with spells or SLAs (especially Archery, as it also eliminates the possibility of spellcasters taking a 5-foot step to avoid Occult Slayers who have Readied to disrupt (thereby getting the double damage)).

Unfortunately, either of these is going to take far more Dexterity than your character currently has (as a side note, personally, I'd have raised that some anyway).

Note: Going Ranger instead of Fighter could get you around the need for more Dex for TWF, but you probably don't want to be restricting yourself to light armor ontop of a low dex.

Can't say I really like Int 8 either (I generally have trouble finding enough skill points without restricting myself to 1 per level) but with only so many points to spend, I have to agree that that or Wisdom would be the easiest to sacrafice.

So, not exactly the build I'd be looking at for this. Combining Hexblade with Occult Slayer looks good though.
Mommy was an Orc
06-10-06, 04:38 PM Dwarf deity-Gendwar Argrim
Str 14
Dex 8
Con 18
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 14

You generally want to avoid stat blocks that have this much contradiction. You have a high constitution, but you're easy to hit and are not particularly great at taking down opponents. You're a Dwarf who saves a little by having a high Con, but then turns around and spends that benefit on Charisma - and your build isn't using Charisma that much - no Charisma skills due to low Int.

What are you going to do to use that Charisma? An example of a build that might do that is a Half-Elf Rogue 1/Hexblade 2/Fighter 2/Outcast Champion 5 - see how Rogue, Hexblade, and Outcast Champion all provide charisma related abilities(Rogue through Charisma skill access and skill points)...
Lomiat
06-10-06, 05:43 PM It's not just that you want to avoid such spikes. I've seen (and designed) some VERY effective min-maxed, spiked characters. The issue, as Mommy notes, is that it's foolish to dump the 10 points into CON for the big bonus, only to squander the dwarven bonus to CON by dumping 10 points in CHA. As far as I'm concerned, if you dump more than 6 of your 28 points into an attribute it should get a bonus, or at least prove neutral. Dumping more than 6 points into an attribute that then gets penalized is insulting.

A better buy might go:
Dwarf
STR 14
DEX 12
CON 18
INT 10
WIS 8
CHA 12

There you're set for the CHA bonus to saves with Hexblade, and if you want to build it up, use your 4th and 8th level bumps. Effectively, you trade 2 points of CHA for 4 points of DEX. The INT will work better for you, I think, than the WIS, especially since Hexblade has a high Will save, and Occult Slayer will, eventually, make you immune to mind-affecting effects.

The archery route is very, very good for the Hexblade. If you're not committed to the dwarf, then I'd recommend a Wood-elf Hex3/Ftr2/Occult Slayer.
STR 16
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 8
CHA 14

For comparison, my O.S. is human (Rhennee):
STR 16
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 8
CHA 8
1-Bbn, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
2-Ftr, Power Attack
3-Ftr, Extra Rage, Improved Init.
4-Hex
5-Rog
6-Rog, Weapon Focus (halberd)
7-Occult Slayer
8-Occult Slayer
9-Occult Slayer, Staggering Strike (hasn't proved too useful the past 5 mods)
the plan from here?
10-Occult Slayer
11-Occult Slayer
12-Hexblade, Combat Reflexes
13-Hexblade
14-Rgr
15-Rgr, Two-weapon Fighting, Spinning Halberd Style
Mommy was an Orc
06-10-06, 06:34 PM It's not just that you want to avoid such spikes. I've seen (and designed) some VERY effective min-maxed, spiked characters. The issue, as Mommy notes, is that it's foolish to dump the 10 points into CON for the big bonus, only to squander the dwarven bonus to CON by dumping 10 points in CHA. As far as I'm concerned, if you dump more than 6 of your 28 points into an attribute it should get a bonus, or at least prove neutral. Dumping more than 6 points into an attribute that then gets penalized is insulting.

I definitely wouldn't go that far - the problem isn't the high charisma for a Dwarf, the problem is that given he's spent 10 points on Charisma, where's the return? That's over a third of his points for +2 to saves vs spells and a DC 13 save, 1/day - as an Occult Slayer, he's spending all his meager skill points on Int skills, not Cha skills. Ouch!

A Half-Orc who spends up on Charisma for say Barbarian 1/Hexblade 2/Fighter 2/Outcast Champion 5 or a Wood Elf who has a high Int for Combat Expertise(and therefore can qualify for Champion of Corellon or Improved Trip) make sense. But that element needs to be there or the build won't.

Common Charisma Synergies:
Rogue - lots of skill points, access to staggering strike
Bard - lots of skill points, bardic music
Hexblade, Paladin - better saves
Outcast Champion - powerful class for high charisma half-elves/orcs
Divine Crusader, Suel Arcanamach - fast progression classes that casts high level spells based on Charisma.
Necrochaos
06-10-06, 09:00 PM As I said before, it's my first time tried to make a character like this. I have no problem switching the stats at all. I thought that the Hexblade levels would be quite useful as this would be a build to take down spellcasters and creatures with spell like abilities. I have no problem switching to wood elf either.

Just looking for an alternative route if I want towards occult slayer. Something a little different from the norm.

I'm very happy to take all of your suggestions.

What if I took the first two levels of ranger to get the TWF and then Hexblade until I get to occult slayeR? I'm not interested in the archer as I have a decent archer at the moment. Just looking for another melee build to work on.

I would be interested in the Dwarven Urgosh (I would switch my deity)

STR 14
DEX 12
CON 18
INT 10
WIS 8
CHA 12

1-Hexblade -Power Attack
2-Hexblade
3-Hexblade -Weapon Focus (Dwarven Waraxe)
4-Fighter -Improve Initiative
5-Fighter
6-Occult Slayer

What else do I need to do? What do I take at 7th-16th? Do I need to change my feats? You guys rock.
Lomiat
06-10-06, 11:25 PM Well, if you go with the Dwarven Waraxe, you can put a few points in the necessary skills and qualify for Exotic Weapon Master. A one-level dip in EWM might be good for 7th level to get the Uncanny Strike ability to Power Attack 1 for 2 with your weapon one-handed. From there, I'd go back to Occult Slayer and fill out the class.

A lot of players go for Pious Templar, but I wouldn't with this character for one reason: It doesn't make a lot of sense to have a spellcasting Occult Slayer.

5th-level feat, I'd take Cleave. Also, I noticed you left INT at 8 and WIS at 10. You're going to have a hard time getting the necessary ranks in your skills with an INT as low as 8. You only get 2+INT for your character's whole build, so the penalty hoses you. Bring the INT to 10, and drop the WIS to 8. You'd want the WIS *if* you were going to cast divine spells (see my opinion above), you suddenly had access to Spot and Listen as class skills, or if you thought your multi-classed fighter was somehow going to beat Dominate Person through any means other than the Occult Slayer's Mindblank ability. I say, just go for the Mindblank.

I wouldn't take Ranger because your DEX is so low that light armor would leave you vulnerable. UNLESS you planned to dip at least 2 levels into Deepwarden (ASAP, before heading into Occult Slayer) for the "CON to AC instead of DEX" feature. This could leave you with an interesting 2-weapon fighting Axe and Shield Bash character. High AC, yet still get the multiple attacks. Not sure how that works for main and off-hand (light shield = light weapon?). If you had more feats, too, the STR-based Shield Bash feats are fun.
Cynric
06-11-06, 07:47 AM If you are looking at a dwarf occoult slayer I can recommend this build.

Strength 16
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 6

First two levels are Barbaian. This is for the skill points to get a decentstart towards the cross class ranks you need.

Then fighter for 3 levels. Then you take Occoult Slayer.

Feats

1st level Power attack
3rd level Weapon focus Waraxe and Dodge
4th Improved Initiative
6th improved toughness

If you take fighter levels after 6th you take Shock trooper prereqs at 7th (no more power attack from your dodge target).

More feats.
8th Ftr Bonus Shock trooper
9th Elusive target
10th Ftr Bonus Combat Brute Prereq
11th nothing
12th Titan fighting and Combat brute

At this point you have more than ten hit points per level before raging or con boosters. You hit like crazy. You use mobility and titan fighting to move past the front liners looking for arcane if need be. Then when the opposing rogue or bodyguard type come and flanks you with the mage (providing he survives) he as long as he is you dodge target hits his mage with either sneak attack or power attack. Titan Fighting allows you to go without a sheild at high levels provide you are fighting large or larger opponents. Which means either a nat armour amulet or even more hit points. Ok you will saves will not be great but the dwarf bonus should help a bit.

I kinda like this build and have someone set up for something similar for when Ratik returns later in the year or maybe the adaptables when they are released.
DuctShuiTengu
06-11-06, 12:47 PM if you want to go the Urgosh route (again, unless, as Lomiat suggested, you're going to go Deepwarden for 2 levels to get the Con to AC), I'd probably stick with the Hexblade 3/Fighter 2/Occult Slayer route, but I'd move the stats around to:

Str 14
Dex 15 (alternatively, leave it at 14 and bump it at 4th)
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 12

Skip Power Attack and instead get TWF. Consider a one-level dip into Exotic Weapon Master for the Flurry of Strikes Stunt (possibly a second level for Double Weapon Defense, though the payoff isn't as big). I probably wouldn't worry about any of the rest of the TWF chain, the requirements get harder to meet and the payoff isn't as good.

Cynric:
The biggest problem I see with your suggestion is that it has you stopping at Fighter 3 to go Occult Slayer. Stopping on an odd level fighter (with the possible exception of 1st) is never a good thing. Also, you seem to have skipped the Mobility Prereq for Elusive Target.

Just a few additional notes on Occult Slayer:
In general, the more typical tank builds don't benefit as much (at least offensively) from Occult Slayer. An Extra d6 of damage per hit isn't going to do a lot if you're only hitting once or twice per round and being able to deal double damage when you ready to disrupt a spell is borderline useless when your target can just take a 5-foot step to get out of range.

Using a double weapon lets you increase the number of times you hit (and get the extra d6 of damage) in exchange for less damage per hit.

Archery again lets you get more hits in (can count on a full attack almost every round and rapid shot gives you an extra attack) and eliminates the classic 5-foot step out of reach counter for readied attacks. Manyshot may also be worth considering here to get a second arrow on those readied attacks (though I'm not entirely sure whether it would get the double damage as well).
boogahwoof
06-11-06, 02:03 PM i have a 12th level massive damage dealer heres his o.c. build

human

1 barbarian weapon focus greatsword, improved init
2 fighter power attack
3 fighter extra rage reckless rage
4 fighter
5 fighter cleave
6 occult slayer improved toughness
7 occult slayer
8 occult slayer
9 occult slayer weapon specialation
10 occult slayer
11 fighter
12 fighter close quarters fighting diving charge(winged boots)

through a few magic items i have a 30 strength. when rage, he makes for a fun 1 hit wonder charactor.
oh just to clarify the 30 strength . start 16 , all level bumps to strength(4,8,12), and 1 stat bump from an ar to strenth=20 belt giant strength +4=24 and when rage +6 to strength from reckless rage.=30
Mommy was an Orc
06-11-06, 02:28 PM i have a 12th level massive damage dealer heres his o.c. build

human

1 barbarian weapon focus greatsword, improved init
2 fighter power attack
3 fighter extra rage reckless rage

That part of the build is slightly illegal - you can't take either of the Rage feats with your Fighter bonus feat, you need to take Improved Toughness with it.
Cynric
06-12-06, 06:53 AM Ok. So I missed the mobility in that build. Maybe I should get some more sleep during cons. Anyway, you can take it instead of the combat brute and\or shock trooper prereq's.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Necrochaos 06-09-06, 11:44 PM	Dwarf deity-Gendwar Argrim Str 14 Dex 8 Con 18 Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 14 1-Hexblade -Power Attack 2-Hexblade 3-Hexblade -Weapon Focus (Dwarven Waraxe) 4-Fighter -Improve Initiative 5-Fighter 6-Occult Slayer I'm not sure what to do from here. This is my first attempt at a build and was curious to see what otheres thought. With this build you get the dwarf spell bonuses along with the Hexblade and Occult Slayer bonus. Also did this at work without books, only Heroforge
DuctShuiTengu 06-10-06, 03:58 PM	For an Occult Slayer, I'd generally advise going either TWF with a double weapon (the Urgosh being a good candidate for Dwarves) or Archery to do a better job of taking advantage of the extra damage against enemies with spells or SLAs (especially Archery, as it also eliminates the possibility of spellcasters taking a 5-foot step to avoid Occult Slayers who have Readied to disrupt (thereby getting the double damage)). Unfortunately, either of these is going to take far more Dexterity than your character currently has (as a side note, personally, I'd have raised that some anyway). Note: Going Ranger instead of Fighter could get you around the need for more Dex for TWF, but you probably don't want to be restricting yourself to light armor ontop of a low dex. Can't say I really like Int 8 either (I generally have trouble finding enough skill points without restricting myself to 1 per level) but with only so many points to spend, I have to agree that that or Wisdom would be the easiest to sacrafice. So, not exactly the build I'd be looking at for this. Combining Hexblade with Occult Slayer looks good though.
Mommy was an Orc 06-10-06, 04:38 PM	Dwarf deity-Gendwar Argrim Str 14 Dex 8 Con 18 Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 14 You generally want to avoid stat blocks that have this much contradiction. You have a high constitution, but you're easy to hit and are not particularly great at taking down opponents. You're a Dwarf who saves a little by having a high Con, but then turns around and spends that benefit on Charisma - and your build isn't using Charisma that much - no Charisma skills due to low Int. What are you going to do to use that Charisma? An example of a build that might do that is a Half-Elf Rogue 1/Hexblade 2/Fighter 2/Outcast Champion 5 - see how Rogue, Hexblade, and Outcast Champion all provide charisma related abilities(Rogue through Charisma skill access and skill points)...
Lomiat 06-10-06, 05:43 PM	It's not just that you want to avoid such spikes. I've seen (and designed) some VERY effective min-maxed, spiked characters. The issue, as Mommy notes, is that it's foolish to dump the 10 points into CON for the big bonus, only to squander the dwarven bonus to CON by dumping 10 points in CHA. As far as I'm concerned, if you dump more than 6 of your 28 points into an attribute it should get a bonus, or at least prove neutral. Dumping more than 6 points into an attribute that then gets penalized is insulting. A better buy might go: Dwarf STR 14 DEX 12 CON 18 INT 10 WIS 8 CHA 12 There you're set for the CHA bonus to saves with Hexblade, and if you want to build it up, use your 4th and 8th level bumps. Effectively, you trade 2 points of CHA for 4 points of DEX. The INT will work better for you, I think, than the WIS, especially since Hexblade has a high Will save, and Occult Slayer will, eventually, make you immune to mind-affecting effects. The archery route is very, very good for the Hexblade. If you're not committed to the dwarf, then I'd recommend a Wood-elf Hex3/Ftr2/Occult Slayer. STR 16 DEX 16 CON 12 INT 10 WIS 8 CHA 14 For comparison, my O.S. is human (Rhennee): STR 16 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 14 WIS 8 CHA 8 1-Bbn, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip 2-Ftr, Power Attack 3-Ftr, Extra Rage, Improved Init. 4-Hex 5-Rog 6-Rog, Weapon Focus (halberd) 7-Occult Slayer 8-Occult Slayer 9-Occult Slayer, Staggering Strike (hasn't proved too useful the past 5 mods) the plan from here? 10-Occult Slayer 11-Occult Slayer 12-Hexblade, Combat Reflexes 13-Hexblade 14-Rgr 15-Rgr, Two-weapon Fighting, Spinning Halberd Style
Mommy was an Orc 06-10-06, 06:34 PM	It's not just that you want to avoid such spikes. I've seen (and designed) some VERY effective min-maxed, spiked characters. The issue, as Mommy notes, is that it's foolish to dump the 10 points into CON for the big bonus, only to squander the dwarven bonus to CON by dumping 10 points in CHA. As far as I'm concerned, if you dump more than 6 of your 28 points into an attribute it should get a bonus, or at least prove neutral. Dumping more than 6 points into an attribute that then gets penalized is insulting. I definitely wouldn't go that far - the problem isn't the high charisma for a Dwarf, the problem is that given he's spent 10 points on Charisma, where's the return? That's over a third of his points for +2 to saves vs spells and a DC 13 save, 1/day - as an Occult Slayer, he's spending all his meager skill points on Int skills, not Cha skills. Ouch! A Half-Orc who spends up on Charisma for say Barbarian 1/Hexblade 2/Fighter 2/Outcast Champion 5 or a Wood Elf who has a high Int for Combat Expertise(and therefore can qualify for Champion of Corellon or Improved Trip) make sense. But that element needs to be there or the build won't. Common Charisma Synergies: Rogue - lots of skill points, access to staggering strike Bard - lots of skill points, bardic music Hexblade, Paladin - better saves Outcast Champion - powerful class for high charisma half-elves/orcs Divine Crusader, Suel Arcanamach - fast progression classes that casts high level spells based on Charisma.
Necrochaos 06-10-06, 09:00 PM	As I said before, it's my first time tried to make a character like this. I have no problem switching the stats at all. I thought that the Hexblade levels would be quite useful as this would be a build to take down spellcasters and creatures with spell like abilities. I have no problem switching to wood elf either. Just looking for an alternative route if I want towards occult slayer. Something a little different from the norm. I'm very happy to take all of your suggestions. What if I took the first two levels of ranger to get the TWF and then Hexblade until I get to occult slayeR? I'm not interested in the archer as I have a decent archer at the moment. Just looking for another melee build to work on. I would be interested in the Dwarven Urgosh (I would switch my deity) STR 14 DEX 12 CON 18 INT 10 WIS 8 CHA 12 1-Hexblade -Power Attack 2-Hexblade 3-Hexblade -Weapon Focus (Dwarven Waraxe) 4-Fighter -Improve Initiative 5-Fighter 6-Occult Slayer What else do I need to do? What do I take at 7th-16th? Do I need to change my feats? You guys rock.
Lomiat 06-10-06, 11:25 PM	Well, if you go with the Dwarven Waraxe, you can put a few points in the necessary skills and qualify for Exotic Weapon Master. A one-level dip in EWM might be good for 7th level to get the Uncanny Strike ability to Power Attack 1 for 2 with your weapon one-handed. From there, I'd go back to Occult Slayer and fill out the class. A lot of players go for Pious Templar, but I wouldn't with this character for one reason: It doesn't make a lot of sense to have a spellcasting Occult Slayer. 5th-level feat, I'd take Cleave. Also, I noticed you left INT at 8 and WIS at 10. You're going to have a hard time getting the necessary ranks in your skills with an INT as low as 8. You only get 2+INT for your character's whole build, so the penalty hoses you. Bring the INT to 10, and drop the WIS to 8. You'd want the WIS if you were going to cast divine spells (see my opinion above), you suddenly had access to Spot and Listen as class skills, or if you thought your multi-classed fighter was somehow going to beat Dominate Person through any means other than the Occult Slayer's Mindblank ability. I say, just go for the Mindblank. I wouldn't take Ranger because your DEX is so low that light armor would leave you vulnerable. UNLESS you planned to dip at least 2 levels into Deepwarden (ASAP, before heading into Occult Slayer) for the "CON to AC instead of DEX" feature. This could leave you with an interesting 2-weapon fighting Axe and Shield Bash character. High AC, yet still get the multiple attacks. Not sure how that works for main and off-hand (light shield = light weapon?). If you had more feats, too, the STR-based Shield Bash feats are fun.
Cynric 06-11-06, 07:47 AM	If you are looking at a dwarf occoult slayer I can recommend this build. Strength 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 6 First two levels are Barbaian. This is for the skill points to get a decentstart towards the cross class ranks you need. Then fighter for 3 levels. Then you take Occoult Slayer. Feats 1st level Power attack 3rd level Weapon focus Waraxe and Dodge 4th Improved Initiative 6th improved toughness If you take fighter levels after 6th you take Shock trooper prereqs at 7th (no more power attack from your dodge target). More feats. 8th Ftr Bonus Shock trooper 9th Elusive target 10th Ftr Bonus Combat Brute Prereq 11th nothing 12th Titan fighting and Combat brute At this point you have more than ten hit points per level before raging or con boosters. You hit like crazy. You use mobility and titan fighting to move past the front liners looking for arcane if need be. Then when the opposing rogue or bodyguard type come and flanks you with the mage (providing he survives) he as long as he is you dodge target hits his mage with either sneak attack or power attack. Titan Fighting allows you to go without a sheild at high levels provide you are fighting large or larger opponents. Which means either a nat armour amulet or even more hit points. Ok you will saves will not be great but the dwarf bonus should help a bit. I kinda like this build and have someone set up for something similar for when Ratik returns later in the year or maybe the adaptables when they are released.
DuctShuiTengu 06-11-06, 12:47 PM	if you want to go the Urgosh route (again, unless, as Lomiat suggested, you're going to go Deepwarden for 2 levels to get the Con to AC), I'd probably stick with the Hexblade 3/Fighter 2/Occult Slayer route, but I'd move the stats around to: Str 14 Dex 15 (alternatively, leave it at 14 and bump it at 4th) Con 16 Int 10 Wis 8 Cha 12 Skip Power Attack and instead get TWF. Consider a one-level dip into Exotic Weapon Master for the Flurry of Strikes Stunt (possibly a second level for Double Weapon Defense, though the payoff isn't as big). I probably wouldn't worry about any of the rest of the TWF chain, the requirements get harder to meet and the payoff isn't as good. Cynric: The biggest problem I see with your suggestion is that it has you stopping at Fighter 3 to go Occult Slayer. Stopping on an odd level fighter (with the possible exception of 1st) is never a good thing. Also, you seem to have skipped the Mobility Prereq for Elusive Target. Just a few additional notes on Occult Slayer: In general, the more typical tank builds don't benefit as much (at least offensively) from Occult Slayer. An Extra d6 of damage per hit isn't going to do a lot if you're only hitting once or twice per round and being able to deal double damage when you ready to disrupt a spell is borderline useless when your target can just take a 5-foot step to get out of range. Using a double weapon lets you increase the number of times you hit (and get the extra d6 of damage) in exchange for less damage per hit. Archery again lets you get more hits in (can count on a full attack almost every round and rapid shot gives you an extra attack) and eliminates the classic 5-foot step out of reach counter for readied attacks. Manyshot may also be worth considering here to get a second arrow on those readied attacks (though I'm not entirely sure whether it would get the double damage as well).
boogahwoof 06-11-06, 02:03 PM	i have a 12th level massive damage dealer heres his o.c. build human 1 barbarian weapon focus greatsword, improved init 2 fighter power attack 3 fighter extra rage reckless rage 4 fighter 5 fighter cleave 6 occult slayer improved toughness 7 occult slayer 8 occult slayer 9 occult slayer weapon specialation 10 occult slayer 11 fighter 12 fighter close quarters fighting diving charge(winged boots) through a few magic items i have a 30 strength. when rage, he makes for a fun 1 hit wonder charactor. oh just to clarify the 30 strength . start 16 , all level bumps to strength(4,8,12), and 1 stat bump from an ar to strenth=20 belt giant strength +4=24 and when rage +6 to strength from reckless rage.=30
Mommy was an Orc 06-11-06, 02:28 PM	i have a 12th level massive damage dealer heres his o.c. build human 1 barbarian weapon focus greatsword, improved init 2 fighter power attack 3 fighter extra rage reckless rage That part of the build is slightly illegal - you can't take either of the Rage feats with your Fighter bonus feat, you need to take Improved Toughness with it.
Cynric 06-12-06, 06:53 AM	Ok. So I missed the mobility in that build. Maybe I should get some more sleep during cons. Anyway, you can take it instead of the combat brute and\or shock trooper prereq's.