New to the bard [Archive] - Wizards Community

New to the bard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Necrochaos
07-24-06, 06:45 PM I've never played a bard in any of the DND systems before. Not really sure where to start. I'll be Human for the feat.

I am looking at mostly buffing and spell casting. Any ideas on where to start? I'm at a total loss.
Cynric
07-24-06, 06:58 PM I can only suggest imporved initiative, that way your buffs and song will go off before other PC's actions (hopefully).
Necrochaos
07-24-06, 07:33 PM For example 10, 12, 10, 14, 11, 15 (I know it's only 25 points, trying it out in MOH to see what I think, I can adjust the scores later. Human.

It's the feats that I don't know for sure what makes sense.
I've seen lots of buids, but I don't think I've seen any build towards casting.

If a bard isn't signing or casting, what are they doing that is so helpful in combat? Is Dragon Disciple worth it in LG
Necrochaos
07-24-06, 08:27 PM Maybe looking toward Fochlucan Lyricist focused on spellcasting. Where do I get the evasion easiest? Rogue?
kenobi65
07-24-06, 08:36 PM Maybe looking toward Fochlucan Lyricist focused on spellcasting. Where do I get the evasion easiest? Rogue?

Pretty much...the only other class that gives it easily is Monk, and then you run into alignment fun, since neither Bard nor Fochlucan Lyrist allow lawful alignments.

While there are probably other ways to do it, the prereqs for Fochlucan Lyrist really ask for Bard / Rogue / Druid...and are a bit of a nod to the old Bard in 1E AD&D, which started out as a fighter, then switched to rogue, then bard (but getting druidic spells, IIRC).
Japangirl
07-24-06, 11:30 PM For a bard, those stats are, well, too spread out. You don't need wisdom, and you want a 12 con score minimum. 14 is better. For a 25 point buy, I'd build a bard like so:

Str 9, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 16

For a 28 point buy, like if you get the Xen'drik card or plan to play in LG, I'd do:

Str 9, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 17

You don't plan on hitting things (low Str and Dex), you want hitpoints to survive the inevitable fireballs and other area of effect nastiness (medium Con), you want skillpoints (decent Int), and you want bonus spells and higher DCs (high Cha). You shouldn't ever be the main target, so your low Dex hurting your AC doesn't matter all that much.
JamesMaissen
07-25-06, 12:15 AM I've never played a bard in any of the DND systems before. Not really sure where to start. I'll be Human for the feat.

I am looking at mostly buffing and spell casting. Any ideas on where to start? I'm at a total loss.

Okay one thing to do is look around for any PrCs that may appeal to you and your vision for your character.

For a casting based bard the typical choice is the Sublime Cord. It is a later development PrC (coming in after 10th level) that basically expands and quickens casting progression. It adds in the wizard/sorcerer spell list to the bard list and gives access to higher spell levels faster than a pure bard. It doesn't advance Bardic Music directly, but has a nice song in it's own right.

I will assume that this is the goal you will be aiming for. It requires the following things: Kn Arcana (13 ranks), Listen (13 ranks), Perform (any) (10 ranks), Profession (astrologer) (6 ranks), and Spellcraft (6 ranks) in skills, bardic music and 3rd level arcane spells.

Typical builds will go up to bard9 (for inspire greatness) and dip out a level into something else before entering into Sublime Cord. There are three typical choices for this single level: Marshal, Mindbender, and Virtuoso. Mindbender is cute as it gives telepathy, gives a +2 on Fort saves and advances casting. Virtuoso allows for taking more levels Virtuoso after Sublime Cord (1 or 2) with it advancing Sublime Cord casting. The first level of virtuoso doesn't advance casting so snagging it prior to Sublime Cord is helpful. Marshal is a great one level dip class as it also gives a +2 on Fort Saves, but it's the minor aura that's sick.. which gives lets you give a bonus equal to your CHA bonus to one area (normally all dex skills/checks including initiative rolls).

There are other builds, but those are the simplest. I will go with one of them as follows:
Bard1-7/Marshal1/Bard8&9/SublimeCord1&2/Mindbender1 then any PrC that advances arcane casting for 2 levels (say Fatespinner, or the like).

Stats:
STR 08
INT 10
WIS 08
DEX 12
CON 14
CHR 18

Possibly increase INT based on skill planning, robbing from DEX over CHA. If really thought through you can elect to go with less CHA, but it is your mainstay.

Feats:
1st Hieghten Spell, Skill Focus: Diplomacy
3rd Arcane Prep
6th Disguise Spell (CAv)
8th Steady Concentration (RS)
9th Mobile Caster (CAv)
12th Subsonics

Heighten spell is to allow you to get the most out of your bard list of spells. A heightened glitterdust can take someone out of the fight just as much as any Will save spell of the level you've heightened it to.. this let's you spread out save spells and utility spells.

Skill Focus: Diplomacy is for when you take your Marshal level at 8th. You get a feat to replace the duplicate skill focus that you would otherwise get.

Arcane Prep let you use pearls to recall every fight type spells (like inspirational boost, later harmonize, etc) and remedy your small number of spells per day. Also that means you can slot preheightened spells for standard action use via Mobile Caster later on.

Disguise spell is awesome. You will never be counterspelled as they will never know what spell you are about to cast and most of the time they won't even know you have cast. This can make even feather fall into a useful combat spell.

Steady Concentration is mainly to power Mobile Caster's high DCs. But also this means that you don't have to worry about concentration DCs almost ever again.

If you do not care for Mobile Caster then you may wish to also nix Steady Concentration and look towards other feats. However, as via harmonize you will have bard songs via move actions.. you may find yourself as immobile as a volley archer. This may prove annoying to you.

Subsonics is for when you are improved invisible and don't want songs to give away your position. Also combined with disguise spell it gives you options outside of combat. Throw in mindbender to direct charmed victims and it can be quite insane.

This list is by no means a lock in any way shape or form. But it's something to take a look at and judge from. Craft wonderous items has it's place should you so desire it... especially the way LG treats it.

-James
Lomiat
07-25-06, 12:39 PM Rather than give you a Bard build, I'll just suggest some possibilities (reiterating what some people have already mentioned):

1-A dip in Marshall is ridiculously good. It basically costs you only 1 level of spell progression, and since bard spells aren't the best anyway, you more than regain your investment. (A Bard/Marshall with 14 DEX, 16 CHA, Improved Init, Motive Dexterity aura, and Inspire Competence can, by the time he/she buys a cloak of CHA +2, act with a +10 Init and Inspire + sing to give all allies +2 to hit and damage.)

2-Good prestige class options include the Sublime Chord and the Warchanter.

3-Bards can make pretty good archers--not great archers--but if you want your bard to make a contribution to a party beyond buffing, archery tends to be a safer route than melee.

4-However, due to the fact that bards benefit from high INT and, later, can qualify to get Arcane Strike, it's not a bad option to pursue a character build that can contribute to a fight by using a melee weapon (with Combat Expertise). Reach weapons (longspear, etc.) are good choices; in fact, if you play the character to be the total party support, after you buff with spells and song, you move to flank and use the Aid Another combat option.

5-Bards, due to their versatility, can make good recipients for a number of less common feats. Despite the obviousness of Improved Initiative, other potentially good options include: Arcane Strike, Lyric Spell, Obtain Familiar, Dual-Wand Wielder, Arcane Disciple, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack (at later levels if you can use Improved Invis and Arcane Strike to get in the middle of a number of foes...), Augment Healing.

I think, though, that bards, because they're so versatile, are good at going with the flow; however, if you have a concept in mind, it's worthwhile making certain that you keep your options open (for example, a low-WIS bard precludes the ability to use Arcane Disciple to gain non-Bard spells on his/her list).
Necrochaos
07-30-06, 02:58 PM Ok, I got the build down.

Str 9 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 19 (one bump and Cloak of Charisma +2)

Bard 7

Need help with my spells. I'm just leveling to 7 and I need help choosing my spells.

I currently have:
1st- Grease, Improversation, Insprational Boost, Tasha's Laughter
2nd- Glitterdust, Harmonize, Hold Person, Mesmerizing Gaze
3rd- Confusion, Know Opponent

How does my spell selection look? Am I missing something? I'm looking to help out controling the battle field and messing with opponents so my buddies can beat them down.
Japangirl
07-30-06, 03:28 PM 3rd- Charm Monster instead of Know Opponent. That charging raging minotaur barbarian? He's your friend now for the next week (day/level spell), or most likely until the adventure is over. You have the potential to seriously own encounters with charm.
Namarus
07-30-06, 11:03 PM cure light at first level is a must.

At least that way you can act as a backup healer in tight situations. Especially tables with no cleric/druid but lots of wands of cure light.
Japangirl
07-30-06, 11:09 PM You can use wands of cure light even if you don't know the spell. It just has to be on your spell list. All bards can use happy sticks, so taking the spell is a waste of a first level spell in my opinion.
JamesMaissen
07-31-06, 02:34 AM I currently have:
1st- Grease, Improversation, Insprational Boost, Tasha's Laughter
2nd- Glitterdust, Harmonize, Hold Person, Mesmerizing Gaze
3rd- Confusion, Know Opponent

How does my spell selection look? Am I missing something? I'm looking to help out controling the battle field and messing with opponents so my buddies can beat them down.

1st: I think I would have gone with something else over Improv. What do you find the time to use it with? Would Focusing Chant work better over all for the same effect? Personally I'd go for Joyful Noise, and maybe snag Feather Fall. Others tend to like swift invis, but I don't think you have the slots for it. I'm also a big fan of Scholar's Touch (even if it is a cleric spell as well).

I would go with Grease, Inspirational Boost, Joyful Noise, and Feather Fall.

2nd: Hold Person seems to suffer from being overlapped by Tasha's and Glitterdust to the point where I don't see much purpose to you having it. Has it made a big difference? I find Harmonic Chorus is a must, meanwhile Mesmerizing Gaze seems of limited use in combat. There are so many great 2nd level bard spells it's a shame they use the sorcerer spells known mechanism for casting.

I'd go with: Glitterdust, Harmonize, Harmonic Chorus and make a tough call for the last one. Tactical Precision is likely what I would go with figuring I am buffing melee fighters with that spell. Alter Self if I took expertise and look to tank. Others would leap to mind for specifics as well. Silence is arguably one of the most powerful, but scrolls of it will suffice for you.

3rd: Well with currently only one slot per day, some of the thought has to be to the future here. Both of the above spells are good choices. Hymn of Praise is another excellent spell and unique to Bards... it's something I would snag shortly so as to combine with Harmonic Chorus to give decent MV and GMW's from the party cleric (if you find one with Divine Spellpower the pair of you will look broken handing out +4 Magic Vestments and Greater Magic Weapons at APL 8). Charm Monster, Glibbness, and Haste are all other good choices. Plan on a few scrolls of spells here when the price becomes reasonable (ie slow to counter haste, etc).

I'd go with: Hymn of Praise and Know Opponent (it's nice for when something wierd shows up). Pick up Haste at 8th (or swap Know Opponent and Haste in order), and Insignia of Healing at 10th.

Anyway those are my suggestions,

James
Lomiat
07-31-06, 05:59 PM Confusion and Haste are good choices for 3rd level. Dispel Magic is also good, but probably secondary, given the way you say you want to play your Bard. Meanwhile, if you have so many Enchantment spells, Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (enchantment) could be very good feat choices.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Necrochaos 07-24-06, 06:45 PM	I've never played a bard in any of the DND systems before. Not really sure where to start. I'll be Human for the feat. I am looking at mostly buffing and spell casting. Any ideas on where to start? I'm at a total loss.
Cynric 07-24-06, 06:58 PM	I can only suggest imporved initiative, that way your buffs and song will go off before other PC's actions (hopefully).
Necrochaos 07-24-06, 07:33 PM	For example 10, 12, 10, 14, 11, 15 (I know it's only 25 points, trying it out in MOH to see what I think, I can adjust the scores later. Human. It's the feats that I don't know for sure what makes sense. I've seen lots of buids, but I don't think I've seen any build towards casting. If a bard isn't signing or casting, what are they doing that is so helpful in combat? Is Dragon Disciple worth it in LG
Necrochaos 07-24-06, 08:27 PM	Maybe looking toward Fochlucan Lyricist focused on spellcasting. Where do I get the evasion easiest? Rogue?
kenobi65 07-24-06, 08:36 PM	Maybe looking toward Fochlucan Lyricist focused on spellcasting. Where do I get the evasion easiest? Rogue? Pretty much...the only other class that gives it easily is Monk, and then you run into alignment fun, since neither Bard nor Fochlucan Lyrist allow lawful alignments. While there are probably other ways to do it, the prereqs for Fochlucan Lyrist really ask for Bard / Rogue / Druid...and are a bit of a nod to the old Bard in 1E AD&D, which started out as a fighter, then switched to rogue, then bard (but getting druidic spells, IIRC).
Japangirl 07-24-06, 11:30 PM	For a bard, those stats are, well, too spread out. You don't need wisdom, and you want a 12 con score minimum. 14 is better. For a 25 point buy, I'd build a bard like so: Str 9, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 16 For a 28 point buy, like if you get the Xen'drik card or plan to play in LG, I'd do: Str 9, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 17 You don't plan on hitting things (low Str and Dex), you want hitpoints to survive the inevitable fireballs and other area of effect nastiness (medium Con), you want skillpoints (decent Int), and you want bonus spells and higher DCs (high Cha). You shouldn't ever be the main target, so your low Dex hurting your AC doesn't matter all that much.
JamesMaissen 07-25-06, 12:15 AM	I've never played a bard in any of the DND systems before. Not really sure where to start. I'll be Human for the feat. I am looking at mostly buffing and spell casting. Any ideas on where to start? I'm at a total loss. Okay one thing to do is look around for any PrCs that may appeal to you and your vision for your character. For a casting based bard the typical choice is the Sublime Cord. It is a later development PrC (coming in after 10th level) that basically expands and quickens casting progression. It adds in the wizard/sorcerer spell list to the bard list and gives access to higher spell levels faster than a pure bard. It doesn't advance Bardic Music directly, but has a nice song in it's own right. I will assume that this is the goal you will be aiming for. It requires the following things: Kn Arcana (13 ranks), Listen (13 ranks), Perform (any) (10 ranks), Profession (astrologer) (6 ranks), and Spellcraft (6 ranks) in skills, bardic music and 3rd level arcane spells. Typical builds will go up to bard9 (for inspire greatness) and dip out a level into something else before entering into Sublime Cord. There are three typical choices for this single level: Marshal, Mindbender, and Virtuoso. Mindbender is cute as it gives telepathy, gives a +2 on Fort saves and advances casting. Virtuoso allows for taking more levels Virtuoso after Sublime Cord (1 or 2) with it advancing Sublime Cord casting. The first level of virtuoso doesn't advance casting so snagging it prior to Sublime Cord is helpful. Marshal is a great one level dip class as it also gives a +2 on Fort Saves, but it's the minor aura that's sick.. which gives lets you give a bonus equal to your CHA bonus to one area (normally all dex skills/checks including initiative rolls). There are other builds, but those are the simplest. I will go with one of them as follows: Bard1-7/Marshal1/Bard8&9/SublimeCord1&2/Mindbender1 then any PrC that advances arcane casting for 2 levels (say Fatespinner, or the like). Stats: STR 08 INT 10 WIS 08 DEX 12 CON 14 CHR 18 Possibly increase INT based on skill planning, robbing from DEX over CHA. If really thought through you can elect to go with less CHA, but it is your mainstay. Feats: 1st Hieghten Spell, Skill Focus: Diplomacy 3rd Arcane Prep 6th Disguise Spell (CAv) 8th Steady Concentration (RS) 9th Mobile Caster (CAv) 12th Subsonics Heighten spell is to allow you to get the most out of your bard list of spells. A heightened glitterdust can take someone out of the fight just as much as any Will save spell of the level you've heightened it to.. this let's you spread out save spells and utility spells. Skill Focus: Diplomacy is for when you take your Marshal level at 8th. You get a feat to replace the duplicate skill focus that you would otherwise get. Arcane Prep let you use pearls to recall every fight type spells (like inspirational boost, later harmonize, etc) and remedy your small number of spells per day. Also that means you can slot preheightened spells for standard action use via Mobile Caster later on. Disguise spell is awesome. You will never be counterspelled as they will never know what spell you are about to cast and most of the time they won't even know you have cast. This can make even feather fall into a useful combat spell. Steady Concentration is mainly to power Mobile Caster's high DCs. But also this means that you don't have to worry about concentration DCs almost ever again. If you do not care for Mobile Caster then you may wish to also nix Steady Concentration and look towards other feats. However, as via harmonize you will have bard songs via move actions.. you may find yourself as immobile as a volley archer. This may prove annoying to you. Subsonics is for when you are improved invisible and don't want songs to give away your position. Also combined with disguise spell it gives you options outside of combat. Throw in mindbender to direct charmed victims and it can be quite insane. This list is by no means a lock in any way shape or form. But it's something to take a look at and judge from. Craft wonderous items has it's place should you so desire it... especially the way LG treats it. -James
Lomiat 07-25-06, 12:39 PM	Rather than give you a Bard build, I'll just suggest some possibilities (reiterating what some people have already mentioned): 1-A dip in Marshall is ridiculously good. It basically costs you only 1 level of spell progression, and since bard spells aren't the best anyway, you more than regain your investment. (A Bard/Marshall with 14 DEX, 16 CHA, Improved Init, Motive Dexterity aura, and Inspire Competence can, by the time he/she buys a cloak of CHA +2, act with a +10 Init and Inspire + sing to give all allies +2 to hit and damage.) 2-Good prestige class options include the Sublime Chord and the Warchanter. 3-Bards can make pretty good archers--not great archers--but if you want your bard to make a contribution to a party beyond buffing, archery tends to be a safer route than melee. 4-However, due to the fact that bards benefit from high INT and, later, can qualify to get Arcane Strike, it's not a bad option to pursue a character build that can contribute to a fight by using a melee weapon (with Combat Expertise). Reach weapons (longspear, etc.) are good choices; in fact, if you play the character to be the total party support, after you buff with spells and song, you move to flank and use the Aid Another combat option. 5-Bards, due to their versatility, can make good recipients for a number of less common feats. Despite the obviousness of Improved Initiative, other potentially good options include: Arcane Strike, Lyric Spell, Obtain Familiar, Dual-Wand Wielder, Arcane Disciple, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack (at later levels if you can use Improved Invis and Arcane Strike to get in the middle of a number of foes...), Augment Healing. I think, though, that bards, because they're so versatile, are good at going with the flow; however, if you have a concept in mind, it's worthwhile making certain that you keep your options open (for example, a low-WIS bard precludes the ability to use Arcane Disciple to gain non-Bard spells on his/her list).
Necrochaos 07-30-06, 02:58 PM	Ok, I got the build down. Str 9 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 19 (one bump and Cloak of Charisma +2) Bard 7 Need help with my spells. I'm just leveling to 7 and I need help choosing my spells. I currently have: 1st- Grease, Improversation, Insprational Boost, Tasha's Laughter 2nd- Glitterdust, Harmonize, Hold Person, Mesmerizing Gaze 3rd- Confusion, Know Opponent How does my spell selection look? Am I missing something? I'm looking to help out controling the battle field and messing with opponents so my buddies can beat them down.
Japangirl 07-30-06, 03:28 PM	3rd- Charm Monster instead of Know Opponent. That charging raging minotaur barbarian? He's your friend now for the next week (day/level spell), or most likely until the adventure is over. You have the potential to seriously own encounters with charm.
Namarus 07-30-06, 11:03 PM	cure light at first level is a must. At least that way you can act as a backup healer in tight situations. Especially tables with no cleric/druid but lots of wands of cure light.
Japangirl 07-30-06, 11:09 PM	You can use wands of cure light even if you don't know the spell. It just has to be on your spell list. All bards can use happy sticks, so taking the spell is a waste of a first level spell in my opinion.
JamesMaissen 07-31-06, 02:34 AM	I currently have: 1st- Grease, Improversation, Insprational Boost, Tasha's Laughter 2nd- Glitterdust, Harmonize, Hold Person, Mesmerizing Gaze 3rd- Confusion, Know Opponent How does my spell selection look? Am I missing something? I'm looking to help out controling the battle field and messing with opponents so my buddies can beat them down. 1st: I think I would have gone with something else over Improv. What do you find the time to use it with? Would Focusing Chant work better over all for the same effect? Personally I'd go for Joyful Noise, and maybe snag Feather Fall. Others tend to like swift invis, but I don't think you have the slots for it. I'm also a big fan of Scholar's Touch (even if it is a cleric spell as well). I would go with Grease, Inspirational Boost, Joyful Noise, and Feather Fall. 2nd: Hold Person seems to suffer from being overlapped by Tasha's and Glitterdust to the point where I don't see much purpose to you having it. Has it made a big difference? I find Harmonic Chorus is a must, meanwhile Mesmerizing Gaze seems of limited use in combat. There are so many great 2nd level bard spells it's a shame they use the sorcerer spells known mechanism for casting. I'd go with: Glitterdust, Harmonize, Harmonic Chorus and make a tough call for the last one. Tactical Precision is likely what I would go with figuring I am buffing melee fighters with that spell. Alter Self if I took expertise and look to tank. Others would leap to mind for specifics as well. Silence is arguably one of the most powerful, but scrolls of it will suffice for you. 3rd: Well with currently only one slot per day, some of the thought has to be to the future here. Both of the above spells are good choices. Hymn of Praise is another excellent spell and unique to Bards... it's something I would snag shortly so as to combine with Harmonic Chorus to give decent MV and GMW's from the party cleric (if you find one with Divine Spellpower the pair of you will look broken handing out +4 Magic Vestments and Greater Magic Weapons at APL 8). Charm Monster, Glibbness, and Haste are all other good choices. Plan on a few scrolls of spells here when the price becomes reasonable (ie slow to counter haste, etc). I'd go with: Hymn of Praise and Know Opponent (it's nice for when something wierd shows up). Pick up Haste at 8th (or swap Know Opponent and Haste in order), and Insignia of Healing at 10th. Anyway those are my suggestions, James
Lomiat 07-31-06, 05:59 PM	Confusion and Haste are good choices for 3rd level. Dispel Magic is also good, but probably secondary, given the way you say you want to play your Bard. Meanwhile, if you have so many Enchantment spells, Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (enchantment) could be very good feat choices.