Newbie questions on a character build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Newbie questions on a character build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BaldMike
04-23-06, 02:05 AM Still very new to LG but loving it so far...just trying to find more chances to play.

I'd like to develop a second character to play as I plan on attending both Origins and GenCon Indy (for at least a couple of days). I'm thinking of working an Elf towards the Eldritch Knight PrC. Probably start as a fighter and then add wizard levels. Don't really know how strong the possibilities are with this but I like the idea of it... its the old elven fighter/magic-user vein.

I've looked at things a little but not too sure about where to go so if anyone has any suggestions on builds, other concepts to include/exclude, what I should do about stats, etc., I would really appreciate it. I really enjoy good roleplaying but I don't want to miss the mark on creating a character with some real strengths either.

Thanks in advance for replies!
redgamer
04-23-06, 02:41 AM Fighter/Wizards peak about the same time they get 2nd level spells or so I'm told. You have to decided if you want highest level spells possible or highest BAB possible. Likely feats include Arcane Strike, Power Attack and Practiced Spellcaster. Have at least 14 strength. You probably want to focus on AC. Eldritch nights can do very well with high AC and you'll never have good HP. Strongly consider specializing. Illusion give mirror image, necromancy false life, transmutation alter self so don't ban those school if you can help it. If you are going to craft you need to keep abjuration too. If you plan on casting 6th level spells contingency is evocation.
clik_ml
04-23-06, 03:16 AM I just did a wee rant on this subject in the bladesinger thread thar with pointers on theory for an arcane melee'r, and if there's anyone out there playing a Bladesinger instead of one of these bad boys, I'm sorry to hear that.

Number one mistake folks seem to make on an arcane melee'r to neglect a decent Strength and Constitution. Since those stats are so important and you are taking a class for weapon proficiencies anyway, elves are actually a pretty bad race for an eldritch knight. A dwarf would do worlds better, but lots of folks like elves for some reason so here we go. :-)

1 Fighter/6 Wizard/X Eldritch Knight
vanilla Elf
14, 16, 14, 14, 8, 8
Feats:
1)Power Attack
1)
3)Improved toughness
6-15)
EK)
Wiz)
(feats left blank as buyer's choice)

Fill in the blanks on the fighter feats if you have particular preferences. Other decent fighter feat choices to fill your two voids include Close Quarters Fighting, Improved Initiative, Combat Expertise. The build is painfully easy to do and seems to work alright.

With False Life up and running you will find your HP *almost* acceptable for a tank at 6th level (while still having 3rd level wiz spells!).

Regarding casterhood:
Being a specialist is a god-send.

Enchantment is an utterly unnecessary school, and if you can find it in your heart to give up one other (probably illusion, *sniff*) then a transmuter or conjurer will do you good. Illusion is packed full of great spells, even for a melee character, but it isn't necessary like mage armor, false life, bull's strength, critical strike, true strike, etc. You could ditch evocation if you are truly dedicated to the cause of being an arcane melee character and can't handle losing the loads of defensive spells from illusion (not to mention the adventure-owning color spray at low levels).

Taking 1 level of spellsword in order to freely wear a mithral chain shirt is definitely an option, and in many cases a good one. It fits neatly in there so my preference is to present the build as simple as possible and leave easy modification up to the user.

[edit:removed references/suggestions to take Improved Toughness multiple times. While awesome, that strategy isn't likely legal, so it has been removed until further notice.]
Mortepierre
04-23-06, 03:59 AM As far as school spec. go, I don't understand why people don't simply go with Divination. You only have to ditch one school in exchange (probably Enchantment) and have access to every other.

Sure, the extra Div. spell could be put to better use with Conj., Evoc., or Ill. but let's remember that True Strike is from the Divination school! And that's far from its only useful spell (Detect Undead, See Invisibility, Tongues, Arcane Eye, Telepathic Bond, etc.. all have a role to play (pardon the pun) in a successful party).
clik_ml
04-23-06, 09:43 AM Divination is the bee's knees for a primary caster. The wizard I'm starting out is a diviner, par example.

For a melee character is has a lot less help to offer. It's still handy, just not something that you want half your spells freely learned/level to be for a melee character, nor necessarily 1 slot/level either.
Tahldrehlian
04-23-06, 09:46 AM As far as school spec. go, I don't understand why people don't simply go with Divination. You only have to ditch one school in exchange (probably Enchantment) and have access to every other.

Sure, the extra Div. spell could be put to better use with Conj., Evoc., or Ill. but let's remember that True Strike is from the Divination school! And that's far from its only useful spell (Detect Undead, See Invisibility, Tongues, Arcane Eye, Telepathic Bond, etc.. all have a role to play (pardon the pun) in a successful party).

Not to mention my personal favorite spell, a third level spell from Spell Compendium (which is core)... Unluck. Hey, big dumb fighter, make a Will save or make EVERY die roll twice, using the worst result for 1 round/level. Go divination!
redgamer
04-23-06, 05:52 PM Critical Strike is much better than True Strike for a fighter/mage
I see no reason to think Improved Toughness can be taken more than once and the general rule is the same feat can't be taken repeatedly.
clik_ml
04-23-06, 09:18 PM Critical Strike is much better than True Strike for a fighter/mage
I see no reason to think Improved Toughness can be taken more than once and the general rule is the same feat can't be taken repeatedly.

True that on Critical Strike.

My basis behind thinking one could take Improved Toughness repeatedly was due to my penchant in HP tanks to take the Dragon's Toughness feat a bunch in 3.0. So it's likely my whole plan of taking Improved Toughness a bunch is a horrible error. Dangit. I'm gonna skirmish around later and see if I can find an FAQ or Errata that added that allowance, but I'm not hopeful for my case. Le sigh.

That said, all hope is not lost for Eldritch Knights and such. You are doomed to less than outrageously good HP sure, but there are other ways to cheese out HP- polymorph especially. I don't like to advocate polymorph for fighting forms just because it is horribly broken. But that brokenness does let an arcane caster with 4th level spells become a superior fighter if you are into being unfair and all that jazz.

[edit: I forgot to ask, why is Unluck so super? I've always been extremely unimpressed with spells that affect an enemy's future rolls and requires a normal saving throw. If the guy is gonna fail a saving throw, then let it be to suggestion, or color spray, or some such effective save or die. Unless Unluck or Mindfog or any of their equivalents has a penalty to the initial save, then they are a waste of time. You're better off just casting a save or die off of the same save.]
opa
04-23-06, 10:00 PM well toughness can be taken multiple times adding 3 hp each time as per bottom of page 91 PHB, but I personally think it is a horrible waste of even a single feat unless you need it for a PRC
Silvertears
04-24-06, 06:33 PM Another thing you might want to try if you are going the fighter/wizardly way is the Spellsword from the Complete Warrior.

Maybe not the most powerful class out there, but I find it fun (although I don't play it in LG).

It only has 5/10 spell progression (which you can SORT OF make up for with the practiced spellcaster feat), but has the fighter BAB progression and 2 good saves...and it allows you to wear armor while casting. -10% to spell failure at 1st level, plus and addition -5% every odd level up to a max of -30% at level 9 (which means NO spell failure chance in mithral full plate!). You get the bonus feat at level 2, and gain the channel spell ability as well.

Silver.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BaldMike 04-23-06, 02:05 AM	Still very new to LG but loving it so far...just trying to find more chances to play. I'd like to develop a second character to play as I plan on attending both Origins and GenCon Indy (for at least a couple of days). I'm thinking of working an Elf towards the Eldritch Knight PrC. Probably start as a fighter and then add wizard levels. Don't really know how strong the possibilities are with this but I like the idea of it... its the old elven fighter/magic-user vein. I've looked at things a little but not too sure about where to go so if anyone has any suggestions on builds, other concepts to include/exclude, what I should do about stats, etc., I would really appreciate it. I really enjoy good roleplaying but I don't want to miss the mark on creating a character with some real strengths either. Thanks in advance for replies!
redgamer 04-23-06, 02:41 AM	Fighter/Wizards peak about the same time they get 2nd level spells or so I'm told. You have to decided if you want highest level spells possible or highest BAB possible. Likely feats include Arcane Strike, Power Attack and Practiced Spellcaster. Have at least 14 strength. You probably want to focus on AC. Eldritch nights can do very well with high AC and you'll never have good HP. Strongly consider specializing. Illusion give mirror image, necromancy false life, transmutation alter self so don't ban those school if you can help it. If you are going to craft you need to keep abjuration too. If you plan on casting 6th level spells contingency is evocation.
clik_ml 04-23-06, 03:16 AM	I just did a wee rant on this subject in the bladesinger thread thar with pointers on theory for an arcane melee'r, and if there's anyone out there playing a Bladesinger instead of one of these bad boys, I'm sorry to hear that. Number one mistake folks seem to make on an arcane melee'r to neglect a decent Strength and Constitution. Since those stats are so important and you are taking a class for weapon proficiencies anyway, elves are actually a pretty bad race for an eldritch knight. A dwarf would do worlds better, but lots of folks like elves for some reason so here we go. :-) 1 Fighter/6 Wizard/X Eldritch Knight vanilla Elf 14, 16, 14, 14, 8, 8 Feats: 1)Power Attack 1) 3)Improved toughness 6-15) EK) Wiz) (feats left blank as buyer's choice) Fill in the blanks on the fighter feats if you have particular preferences. Other decent fighter feat choices to fill your two voids include Close Quarters Fighting, Improved Initiative, Combat Expertise. The build is painfully easy to do and seems to work alright. With False Life up and running you will find your HP almost acceptable for a tank at 6th level (while still having 3rd level wiz spells!). Regarding casterhood: Being a specialist is a god-send. Enchantment is an utterly unnecessary school, and if you can find it in your heart to give up one other (probably illusion, sniff) then a transmuter or conjurer will do you good. Illusion is packed full of great spells, even for a melee character, but it isn't necessary like mage armor, false life, bull's strength, critical strike, true strike, etc. You could ditch evocation if you are truly dedicated to the cause of being an arcane melee character and can't handle losing the loads of defensive spells from illusion (not to mention the adventure-owning color spray at low levels). Taking 1 level of spellsword in order to freely wear a mithral chain shirt is definitely an option, and in many cases a good one. It fits neatly in there so my preference is to present the build as simple as possible and leave easy modification up to the user. [edit:removed references/suggestions to take Improved Toughness multiple times. While awesome, that strategy isn't likely legal, so it has been removed until further notice.]
Mortepierre 04-23-06, 03:59 AM	As far as school spec. go, I don't understand why people don't simply go with Divination. You only have to ditch one school in exchange (probably Enchantment) and have access to every other. Sure, the extra Div. spell could be put to better use with Conj., Evoc., or Ill. but let's remember that True Strike is from the Divination school! And that's far from its only useful spell (Detect Undead, See Invisibility, Tongues, Arcane Eye, Telepathic Bond, etc.. all have a role to play (pardon the pun) in a successful party).
clik_ml 04-23-06, 09:43 AM	Divination is the bee's knees for a primary caster. The wizard I'm starting out is a diviner, par example. For a melee character is has a lot less help to offer. It's still handy, just not something that you want half your spells freely learned/level to be for a melee character, nor necessarily 1 slot/level either.
Tahldrehlian 04-23-06, 09:46 AM	As far as school spec. go, I don't understand why people don't simply go with Divination. You only have to ditch one school in exchange (probably Enchantment) and have access to every other. Sure, the extra Div. spell could be put to better use with Conj., Evoc., or Ill. but let's remember that True Strike is from the Divination school! And that's far from its only useful spell (Detect Undead, See Invisibility, Tongues, Arcane Eye, Telepathic Bond, etc.. all have a role to play (pardon the pun) in a successful party). Not to mention my personal favorite spell, a third level spell from Spell Compendium (which is core)... Unluck. Hey, big dumb fighter, make a Will save or make EVERY die roll twice, using the worst result for 1 round/level. Go divination!
redgamer 04-23-06, 05:52 PM	Critical Strike is much better than True Strike for a fighter/mage I see no reason to think Improved Toughness can be taken more than once and the general rule is the same feat can't be taken repeatedly.
clik_ml 04-23-06, 09:18 PM	Critical Strike is much better than True Strike for a fighter/mage I see no reason to think Improved Toughness can be taken more than once and the general rule is the same feat can't be taken repeatedly. True that on Critical Strike. My basis behind thinking one could take Improved Toughness repeatedly was due to my penchant in HP tanks to take the Dragon's Toughness feat a bunch in 3.0. So it's likely my whole plan of taking Improved Toughness a bunch is a horrible error. Dangit. I'm gonna skirmish around later and see if I can find an FAQ or Errata that added that allowance, but I'm not hopeful for my case. Le sigh. That said, all hope is not lost for Eldritch Knights and such. You are doomed to less than outrageously good HP sure, but there are other ways to cheese out HP- polymorph especially. I don't like to advocate polymorph for fighting forms just because it is horribly broken. But that brokenness does let an arcane caster with 4th level spells become a superior fighter if you are into being unfair and all that jazz. [edit: I forgot to ask, why is Unluck so super? I've always been extremely unimpressed with spells that affect an enemy's future rolls and requires a normal saving throw. If the guy is gonna fail a saving throw, then let it be to suggestion, or color spray, or some such effective save or die. Unless Unluck or Mindfog or any of their equivalents has a penalty to the initial save, then they are a waste of time. You're better off just casting a save or die off of the same save.]
opa 04-23-06, 10:00 PM	well toughness can be taken multiple times adding 3 hp each time as per bottom of page 91 PHB, but I personally think it is a horrible waste of even a single feat unless you need it for a PRC
Silvertears 04-24-06, 06:33 PM	Another thing you might want to try if you are going the fighter/wizardly way is the Spellsword from the Complete Warrior. Maybe not the most powerful class out there, but I find it fun (although I don't play it in LG). It only has 5/10 spell progression (which you can SORT OF make up for with the practiced spellcaster feat), but has the fighter BAB progression and 2 good saves...and it allows you to wear armor while casting. -10% to spell failure at 1st level, plus and addition -5% every odd level up to a max of -30% at level 9 (which means NO spell failure chance in mithral full plate!). You get the bonus feat at level 2, and gain the channel spell ability as well. Silver.