Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rerednaw 06-17-07, 12:24 PM	I was recently playing a mod where it was repeatedly stated that we were going to experience extreme climate conditions and that we should prepare for such. And there was a blurb about possible intense fighting. Well, after that warning, I picked up a wand of CLW and a bunch of Endure Elements. Half the party didn't bother. I had a choice. I could let them die or spend my resources keeping them alive. In the end I spent my level 2 character who had 1018 gold, spent 1000 gp in the mod on consumeables and kept four other members from dying. Two other players spent 50 gp each on one potion. No one else spent a copper. This has happened repeatedly. The mod warns the party of a specific hazard, and half or more of the party assumes someone else will spend their money to cover it. Or assumes that someone else will heal them and not even carry a 25 gp CLW scroll. Fortunately for the party I'm playing a young naive bard who believes the best of everyone. By the time he hits level 3 though, his world view is going to be significantly altered. What would you have done?
The_Jester 06-17-07, 12:36 PM	Let them suffer. Or, you know, mention something to them when they were buying stuff. Like: "hey, you guys should pick up a wand too. I'd be happy to use it on you if its not on your spell list." Or say you only have enough charges to use it in-combat.
King Kashue 06-17-07, 01:05 PM	Tell them flat out, "Buy the scrolls you need. I will cast them, but this is APL 2, I can't afford to buy this stuff for everyone and if you go down, you'll hurt the party"... It's like people who stiff on the tip at a restaurant. "Hrm, my meal was $8.95, I'll put in $9". Bollocks on that, you carry your load or you get a boot in the arse...:D
Lupo 06-17-07, 01:23 PM	I was recently playing a mod where it was repeatedly stated that we were going to experience extreme climate conditions and that we should prepare for such. And there was a blurb about possible intense fighting. Well, after that warning, I picked up a wand of CLW and a bunch of Endure Elements. Half the party didn't bother. I had a choice. I could let them die or spend my resources keeping them alive. In the end I spent my level 2 character who had 1018 gold, spent 1000 gp in the mod on consumeables and kept four other members from dying. Two other players spent 50 gp each on one potion. No one else spent a copper. This has happened repeatedly. The mod warns the party of a specific hazard, and half or more of the party assumes someone else will spend their money to cover it. Or assumes that someone else will heal them and not even carry a 25 gp CLW scroll. Fortunately for the party I'm playing a young naive bard who believes the best of everyone. By the time he hits level 3 though, his world view is going to be significantly altered. What would you have done? simple, try to avoid said players :( or at least don't play a character with high "consumable flow rate" :rolleyes: as harsh as this sounds, it is the only real option, you can't let them down in the middle of a module, because then most likely your own character gets hosed as well, your character can't "make" them buy their own bare essentials and there is no way for expense compensation in LG. as soon as you end up at a table with players who you know to have the attitude: "i will save every single GP for being able to buy shiny item XY as soon as possible and i don't care for other players anyway!" and therefore expect the rest of the table to provide the "consumables", pull out another character, like barbarian, monk, rogue or fighter type or any combination of these and explain exactly why you are doing it. and there are some situations with certain characters where you just have to swallow it :( my wizard 4 has gained a net of MINUS 120 gp out of an APL 6 interactive (the party got full XP/GP, 900 each, CMI and copying spells costs NOT counted) and then yesterday again had to throw in some 400 gp in scrolls (at least scribed by himself, so effective only some 200 gp) at an APL 6 table. both tables were sub-optimal for several reasons. if my wizard wouldn't have crunched another glitterdust scroll at the end of the last encounter in yesterday's module, the major NPC with most of the loot would have gotten away :(, so no real alternative for this. (and the DM was at least "un-cooperative" for forcing me to do so; a halfling wizard, caught in an web indoors, and our tank had freedom of movement, but as the wizard was invisible, he ruled that he still might have a chance to escape :confused:) playing a wizard two levels below APL really is not fun :rolleyes: ciao martin m.
Timlagor 06-17-07, 01:28 PM	1) Tell them to buy stuff at the beginning 2) Complain when they don't have stuff in the middle 3) Tell them to buy stuff at the end 4) Next time tell them if they don't buy their own stuff they can suffer and you'll run away. (buy a potion/scroll of sly/invisibility ..and make sure they know you're buying it and why) ONLY do this with people who have already offended: don't become the non-team player yourself. You don't have to carry through on your threat
Samwise 06-17-07, 01:55 PM	Leave the table before the DM begins and play the adventure another time with more reasonable players. If that was no longer possible, play as long as reasonable, then "fail" the adventure and walk away with whatever xp and gp you can salvage, and leave the rest of them to die. In either case, find different people to play with in the future.
UMiskatonic 06-17-07, 03:42 PM	You know, sometimes it stings, but it's better to be the bigger person. Ultimately, you're making them more effective, and that's going to help you get through the mod. These things -do- turn around. Get a reputation as a team player, and it won't be hard to find that 5000 gold for the raise dead. Get a reputation as a slacker who needs other people's equipment, and you'll stay dead. Be patient.
CdrcJsn 06-17-07, 04:09 PM	Half the party didn't bother. Since you're talking about low levels, it might just be a matter of inexperience. * They might not be aware that they can buy said scrolls/wands. * They might not be aware that they need those items. * They might not realize that buying said items and handing them off to others to use on them is an option. If this is the case, then all you need to do is enlighten them that buying those consumables is in their best interest. If they're just stingy and don't want to spend, then you shouldn't feel obligated to spend your gold on them. Let them suffer the consequences of their own foolishness. If they refuse to learn, then try to avoid them in the future. Cedric
Frumpkis 06-17-07, 07:36 PM	My initial gut reaction in replying to this thread was to join the chorus saying "yeah, let those other players suffer for their cheap-assed-ness". However, we all weren't at the table and don't know the full context of the situation. I concur it could've been possible that the players were just inexperienced/clueless that they should be better prepared by purchasing consumables beforehand. In that case, we shouldn't be too hasty in jumping to conclusions. Learning to be an effective D&D player (and effective team player) takes time, whether it's direct playing experience at the table or reading forum discussions such as these. Even veteran players may miss out on things that would strike others as being common sense. For example, 2 weeks ago I was playing at a APL 12 table at an interactive, where the bad guy's tactic was to sunder spell component pouches. Now, it wasn't a dangerous combat, as sundering was really the only thing this guy could do against the party, but he managed to render 2 PCs ineffective because neither of them carried backup spell component pouches. At APL 12! I was somewhat surprised. So yeah, sometimes it takes hard personal experience for people to learn to be better (team) players. [incidentally, for the rest of the combat, the sorceror in the party was reduced to spending his actions searching the floor for the spell component that he needed from his spilled pouch. The DM made him roll a d20 each round to see which spell component he managed to pick up......it was rather amusing to watch :D] Anyway, back to the original topic, I would say the first time you play with such players at the table, give them the benefit of the doubt and help them out anyway. If it happens again at another table with them, however, leave them to their own devices.
_metz_ 06-17-07, 10:13 PM	I was stuck with this for a long time. A bunch of players who were quite inexperienced yet somehow had level 7-8 characters. I stopped playing with them after a while, it got unbearable. None knew what a tanglefoot bag was. Nobody had scrolls of lesser or even normal restoration Noone had a scroll of remove curse 9when they got smacked by mummy rot it was unpleasant) They got told they were going in an area packed with ghouls - noone prepared remove paralysis or bought scrolls of it Noone had any potions at all Nobody got Endure elements Nobody bothered with any consumables like oil of magic weapon, etc When I started GMing for this lot, they got into a lot of trouble, and fortunately have now started to learn lol. Quote from 7th level Sorcerer character: "What do you mean I am blinded? how do I get rid of it? what do you mean its permanent?" How these characters GOT to 8th level is BEYOND ME and the source of a private contention with me and several other people. <Won't go into that at all>
King Kashue 06-17-07, 10:24 PM	None knew what a tanglefoot bag was. It's a glass bag filled with sticky cheese... I thought everyone knew that...:D
_metz_ 06-17-07, 10:26 PM	It's a glass bag filled with sticky cheese... I thought everyone knew that...:D Apparently not, lol. It amazed me too.
copper_wyrmling 06-17-07, 11:38 PM	I remember playing on an APL 4 table with no healing where (a) I was the only one who already owned a wand of CLW (on a fighter type), and (b) everybody else on the table refused to buy one. We burned up pretty much the entire wand in that mod: I had to tell one of the other PCs to stop wasting charges in attempts to stop the bleeding from bearded devils' cursed wounds (he had a slightly better chance with Heal checks, and they're not consumable). It's amazing how cavalier some people can be with consumables when they're not paying for them :rolleyes: Everyone has the responsibility to contribute their fair share of consumables to a table. I honestly think that every PC at low APLs should have a wand of cure light wounds / lesser vigor, unless they always play with the same group and that group has a cleric or druid, in which case pearls of power may be a decent substitute. Even if you're not usually the one getting hit, it's not fair to expect the frontline fighters to pay for all the consumable healing, any more than it is to expect that the cleric should pay because he's the one who'll be making the items work - it's a team game. I try to advocate that attitude as both a GM and a player when running / playing low-APL tables: people are a lot more willing to spend cash on consumables if they know that others are expected to do it as well (i.e. they won't be carrying all the burden). For example, 2 weeks ago I was playing at a APL 12 table at an interactive, where the bad guy's tactic was to sunder spell component pouches. Now, it wasn't a dangerous combat, as sundering was really the only thing this guy could do against the party, but he managed to render 2 PCs ineffective because neither of them carried backup spell component pouches. At APL 12! I was somewhat surprised. I think my L12 sorcerer may not actually have a backup spell component pouch, because they're too heavy. Otoh, many of her spells don't require any material component at all*, she tends to precast several of the others long before we reach combat**, and she keeps important backup spell components and foci separate from the pouch in case she needs to pretend to be not-an-arcanist or gets asked to surrender her spell component pouch (I assume these take one or more move actions to retrieve in-combat - for example she wears feathers and gemstones in her hair for Fly and Spiritwall, and has a "make-up kit" in her pocket that includes ground mica for Glitterdust and talc and powdered silver for See Invis). *You can do rather a lot in-combat with a spell selection that still includes teleport, enervation, orb of force, scorching ray, magic missile, feather fall, guided shot and ray of enfeeblement, spontaneously augmented by empower spell and / or split ray as needed. **Greater magic weapon, empowered false life and see invisibility are the usual ones, plus phantom steed and friendly face (which don't need material components).
_metz_ 06-18-07, 12:09 AM	The thing that amazes me the most is when at APL 6 and above you have parties where no-one has a cold iron weapon or a silver weapon. (Referring ofc to melee types here) I mean they cost next to nothing, and when its magic weaponed and you are fighting a vampire, then you realise how useful buying that backup silver longsword really was. I played an APL 10 the other day where my Rogue was the only one with cold iron and silver weapons (he bought some a long time ago) And as such when we fought stuff that needed special materials he was shocked the level 9 Barbarian with a Bag of holding ONLY had a +2 Greataxe (that and a spare normal greataxe). Didn't even have any silver sheen. Which if you insist on using your main weapon you SHOULD have a vial of above APL 8. (is it open access? can't remember, it was regional in Perrenland where the character was from)
Ralis 06-18-07, 12:13 AM	My suggestion is that instead of yelling at them to buy they're own consumables, get some non-consumables to loan out to lead by example. I didn't hesitate to buy bracer's of quickstrike when my fighter got acess, and niether will I hesitate to loan them out to someone that can make better use of them. A belt of One Mighty Blow is another item that I'll be watching for access too, (since I am mostly a two-handed weapon user) I carry two pots of cure light, and two oil of magic weapon. Most of the players don't grumble about me not buying consumables to contribute with, because they realize I'm saving money for mithril full plate, so I won't need as much healing. I know what you mean metz, that was one of the first things that my group suggested to me. Currently my fighter has the following weapons: MW Glaive MW Cold Iron morningstar Silvered Greatsword +1 Adamantium Longsword +1 No I don't have a ranged weapon, but I only needed one once so far in the mods I've played, and as I said earlier I'm saving up for a major armor upgrade.
wooti 06-18-07, 01:51 AM	While not entirely according to the rules I allow players to buy replacement consumables for other player's consumables used by them during the adventure (doesn't work for a wand, but for scroll and potions its fine). I would suggest I would allow this if I was GMing the table and see if they took me up on the offer.
_metz_ 06-18-07, 02:12 AM	While not entirely according to the rules I allow players to buy replacement consumables for other player's consumables used by them during the adventure (doesn't work for a wand, but for scroll and potions its fine). I would suggest I would allow this if I was GMing the table and see if they took me up on the offer. I usually allow something similar.
Suvarov454 06-18-07, 08:05 AM	I know what you mean metz, that was one of the first things that my group suggested to me. Currently my fighter has the following weapons: MW Glaive MW Cold Iron morningstar Silvered Greatsword +1 Adamantium Longsword +1 No I don't have a ranged weapon, but I only needed one once so far in the mods I've played, and as I said earlier I'm saving up for a major armor upgrade. Slings are free, they fold up very small, standard upkeep replaces used bullets, and you get you get your STR bonus to damage. Oh! and they're not outlawed in Greyhawk.
Potato Weasel 06-18-07, 08:20 AM	I would have really let them freeze. And suggested heavy weather gear and such. I appreciate the lead by example idea, but after several modules where my friends and I were very nice to another player, loaning items, using consumables, occasional buffing, etc. One of us got disintegrated, namely the theurge who buffed everyone and pulled us back from almost dying several times. This was a table with players just going into apl 8, and we all started pooling gold for a resurrection, we asked if he could spare any money. His reply was that though he had almost 10k, his character was saving for an expensive item, and since there wouldnt be any overcap he couldnt spare anything. So, the other two of us chipped in over half, but the theurge ended up having to sell half of his stuff anyhow. So, we decided that giving out to others really doesnt work, we've tried it a few times since, but its been very rare that anyone actually appreciates it.
gomeztoo 06-18-07, 08:51 AM	IIRC, you cannot actually pay for someone else's raise except out of gold gained... at least that was what I heared yesterday. His reply was that though he had almost 10k, his character was saving for an expensive item, and since there wouldnt be any overcap he couldnt spare anything. Well, that would be the last time to play with that player, like, ever? I mean, I have some seriously greedy/un-nice PCs but they would pay up (you shake out the rogue and you cope with the druid's nitching about people not being self-sufficient*) *) though, the last time this happened, which was, as you may guess, yesterday, the druidess had moved off, hence missing out on her share of the treasure entirely, allowing a raise without *****ing :)
copper_wyrmling 06-18-07, 08:52 AM	Slings are free, they fold up very small, standard upkeep replaces used bullets, and you get you get your STR bonus to damage. Oh! and they're not outlawed in Greyhawk. Alternatively, javelins are cheap and do pretty good damage when you're a high-Strength fighter, and they're reusable. My wood elf melee type began his first scenario ever with bludgeoning, slashing, piercing, cold iron and silver melee weapons (I think most of them were cheap daggers, and I remember the bludgeoning weapon was a club), and several javelins. Nonmasterwork weapons are cheap and don't need access: unless you're struggling with weight issues, there's not much reason not to buy them. (In that first scenario, we ran into a lot of swarms and skeletons - half damage from non-bludgeoning weapons and DR 5/bludgeoning respectively. My wood elf was quite exasperated to discover that of the three or four melee types in the party, he was the only one who'd thought to bring along a club. In his words, "They grow on TREES!") Up until very recently I had never seen a player refuse to chip in for another character's raise dead / resurrection, but then I saw it happen in an online game (fortunately for me, it wasn't my character that died, but it was still annoying to watch the selfish guy walk away with twice as much gold as anybody else). That player is now on my list of people to avoid.
Mommy was an Orc 06-18-07, 09:17 AM	One of the things I highly recommend is encouraging permanent purchases for those people - my Bard has carried around a bunch of Pearl 1s for the past few levels to hand out to casters for Lesser Vigor/Endure Elements/Mage Armor/etc... Clerics with lots of spell capacity = more buffs. It has a little more upfront cost, but over time(20 mods or so), it ends up being a lot cheaper. Over 100 mods, it is basically free.
pedr 06-18-07, 09:39 AM	IIRC, you cannot actually pay for someone else's raise except out of gold gained... at least that was what I heared yesterday.Quick note: The PC may use any of his own surviving wealth or favors or receive help from other PCs or cohorts in the form of GP or favors in order to pay for the spellcasting needed ... You may sell equipment or receive contributions from other PCs at the table to help pay for either method.
Rerednaw 06-18-07, 09:53 AM	Thanks for all the input. I'll try to address some points here. Right now, my character has 18 gp. So he doesn't even have enough to cover core mod upkeep. Permanent items he could loan are out of the question. Other than the consumeables, which are gone (except for the wand) he has 0 magic items. He did have a MW longspear which he bought after his second mod. He loaned that out (more later.) I'll go into a bit more background at the game. The game was APL2. Two people dropped in and insisted on playing their level 6 and 5 instead, bumping us to a full table and APL4. The main tank fighting the BBEG lost his primary weapon on the first round. He then retreated. I asked him where was his backup weapon. He replied he didn't have anything. When we decided to surprise and 'coup de grace' a BBEG, the other melee (enlarged) went with his +1 shortsword, despite the fact my bard had a MW 2H longspear (d8 -> 2d6 x3 versus d6 -> d8+1 x2). Nobody used the assist action. Nobody flanked. This in a party with 3 melees. None of the three melees had a wand/scroll/potion of CLW. As for putting these people on a list, I typically do that anyway. Sadly it was a pick-up table and I had no way of knowing this beforehand. I guess what I've learned is now I'll just declare before playing "If consumeables come up, are each of you going to cover your costs?" If I get puzzled looks or denials, then I'll just leave the table. Not an option with RHoD, but that's another story.
_metz_ 06-18-07, 10:08 AM	Thanks for all the input. I'll try to address some points here. Right now, my character has 18 gp. So he doesn't even have enough to cover core mod upkeep. Permanent items he could loan are out of the question. Other than the consumeables, which are gone (except for the wand) he has 0 magic items. He did have a MW longspear which he bought after his second mod. He loaned that out (more later.) I'll go into a bit more background at the game. The game was APL2. Two people dropped in and insisted on playing their level 6 and 5 instead, bumping us to a full table and APL4. The main tank fighting the BBEG lost his primary weapon on the first round. He then retreated. I asked him where was his backup weapon. He replied he didn't have anything. When we decided to surprise and 'coup de grace' a BBEG, the other melee (enlarged) went with his +1 shortsword, despite the fact my bard had a MW 2H longspear (d8 -> 2d6 x3 versus d6 -> d8+1 x2). Nobody used the assist action. Nobody flanked. This in a party with 3 melees. None of the three melees had a wand/scroll/potion of CLW. As for putting these people on a list, I typically do that anyway. Sadly it was a pick-up table and I had no way of knowing this beforehand. I guess what I've learned is now I'll just declare before playing "If consumeables come up, are each of you going to cover your costs?" If I get puzzled looks or denials, then I'll just leave the table. Not an option with RHoD, but that's another story. Who buys a +1 short sword? I mean MAYBE TWF with offhand, but going a cutlass imo is better... But guessing by the enlarged... I mean - +1 Shortsword? Garh?
Potato Weasel 06-18-07, 10:15 AM	You know, sometimes you just hope that certain characters will be dead by the end of a fight, and that you hopefully wont. Of course, a hero can survive even overwhelming odds! If he has flair and actually makes sure he has something up his sleeve. If your a melee fighter, without tactics up to things as simple as flanking, you really shouldnt get past level 5 or so, sadly some absolutely ineffective characters can get as high as 10 because it seems a lot of judges wont dock exp for people actively choosing not to participate in battles. Umm, but i'm off topic again. And if you have a bad non-team when your going through RHOD, characters are going to die, and your not going to win, unless you have very very low morals about gifting your dm with a vacation to the bahamas.
Timlagor 06-18-07, 10:41 AM	While not entirely according to the rules I allow players to buy replacement consumables for other player's consumables used by them during the adventure (doesn't work for a wand, but for scroll and potions its fine). I would suggest I would allow this if I was GMing the table and see if they took me up on the offer. This isn't "not entirely according to the rules". It's blatantly breaking them. While I agree that it would be a good idea to allow this, it very clearly isn't allowed in LG. By allowing it you cause two problems: - fewer people militating to get the rules changed - arguments and bad feeling when your players go to another table that does play by the rules.
pedr 06-18-07, 10:50 AM	Note that if you are as poor as you sound (i.e. if the full market value of everything you own is less than 450gp) you can spend 10TUs, invoke Charity of Friends, and get up to 450gp - 1/2 the value for 2nd level on page 135 of the DMG. If you can survive until third level, or have slightly too much, if you do that when you're third level that 10TUs will get your total worth up to 1350gp. Not perfect, but a way of getting something back from disasterous loss of stuff.
MatteBlack 06-18-07, 11:31 AM	Who buys a +1 short sword? I mean MAYBE TWF with offhand, but going a cutlass imo is better... But guessing by the enlarged... I mean - +1 Shortsword? Garh? It's sort of sad that LG has gotten to the point where +1 ShortSword gets scoffed at as a purchase.
GreatSiron 06-18-07, 11:45 AM	It's sort of sad that LG has gotten to the point where +1 ShortSword gets scoffed at as a purchase. Indeed. Maybe the only thing the player has is the PHB. As for secondary weapons, the guy may have never heard of the sunder or disarm rules. (Unlike some of us who read the PHB for fun).
Rerednaw 06-18-07, 12:07 PM	Indeed. Maybe the only thing the player has is the PHB. As for secondary weapons, the guy may have never heard of the sunder or disarm rules. (Unlike some of us who read the PHB for fun). Nothing wrong with the weapon normally. I was only pointing out that in a enlarged, coup de-grace, trying to sneak situation, having the extra reach and the higher damage base/critical would have been better. It's all moot now of course. My bard doesn't qualify for charity of friends. His MW Longspear (305gp) plus his wand of CLW (750gp) puts him well into the range of where he should be. His other equipment (backpack, tanglefoot bag, riding dog, etc.) is worth about 300 gp or so. Good idea though. My bard will be spending the next 3 levels retraining as well...so he may come close to the 50% WBL value, especially if the other trends continue.
Timlagor 06-18-07, 06:22 PM	I trust you've values the wand based on charges remaining.
Frumpkis 06-18-07, 11:21 PM	I think my L12 sorcerer may not actually have a backup spell component pouch, because they're too heavy. Otoh, many of her spells don't require any material component at all*, she tends to precast several of the others long before we reach combat**, and she keeps important backup spell components and foci separate from the pouch in case she needs to pretend to be not-an-arcanist or gets asked to surrender her spell component pouch (I assume these take one or more move actions to retrieve in-combat - for example she wears feathers and gemstones in her hair for Fly and Spiritwall, and has a "make-up kit" in her pocket that includes ground mica for Glitterdust and talc and powdered silver for See Invis). Are the "disguised" material components (eg. the gemstones in the hair, etc) from her original spell component pouch, or her secondary/backup one? If they're from her backup pouch, as a judge I would rule that, since you're still carrying the components on your person, you would still have to add the weight of the backup pouch onto your encumbrance total. It's just that, instead of the weight being all in the pouch, it's distributed all over your body. That being said, I really like this idea of disguising material components on one's person, and may adopt it for my sneakier/more chaotic PCs.
copper_wyrmling 06-18-07, 11:40 PM	Are the "disguised" material components (eg. the gemstones in the hair, etc) from her original spell component pouch, or her secondary/backup one? If they're from her backup pouch, as a judge I would rule that, since you're still carrying the components on your person, you would still have to add the weight of the backup pouch onto your encumbrance total. It's just that, instead of the weight being all in the pouch, it's distributed all over your body. That being said, I really like this idea of disguising material components on one's person, and may adopt it for my sneakier/more chaotic PCs. They're from the original pouch I think (I'm not sure if she owns two - yes I could go dig up her character sheet, but it's in my suitcase and I'm lazy). Even if they were from a secondary pouch, a full spell component pouch contains the components for every Open spell (and enough of them that it's expected you won't run out between opportunities to restock the pouch): that's why it weighs a significant amount even though most of the components are of negligible weight. The components Azrien keeps hidden on her person are probably only enough for one or two castings of each of those spells, and they're only for about five separate spells: they should only weigh a small fraction of the weight of a full spell component pouch. Mind you, looking at the PHB now, spell component pouches actually weigh less than I thought they did. Maybe I will buy a spare - the disguised spell components are mostly for the situations where we're asked to leave our weapons and spell component pouches at the door, not to guard against sundering (that character avoids melee like the plague anyway).
solbergb 06-18-07, 11:46 PM	II think my L12 sorcerer may not actually have a backup spell component pouch, because they're too heavy. Otoh, many of her spells don't require any material component at all*, I was about to say "me too" but then remembered that for flavor reasons both my sorc and her cohort have eschew materials....and my sorceress wears her spell foci as jewelry or clothing (they're all things like "loop of leather" "copper wire" "key" "crystal or gem" that, properly mounted or accessorized can be worked into her overall "non-hat-disguise" look) My druid only has one because she's pretty much a melee character and does fine without it (and her most potent magic is summons anyway, which take no comps). My favored soul only has one divine focus and one comp pouch because he has like 2 spells that take spell comps and about 2 that have foci (half cantrips) and he doesn't really like his god very much. My warmage only has one for weight reasons, but again, about 2/3 of his spell list doesn't have comps, he'll get by. My offensive-caster-oriented cleric, otoh, has spare holy symbol and comp pouch. Prepared casters are MUCH more vulnerable to losing comp pouches especially if they favor material component-dependent spells.
solbergb 06-18-07, 11:57 PM	It's sort of sad that LG has gotten to the point where +1 ShortSword gets scoffed at as a purchase. It isn't so much the shortsword as the context. Most of the benefits of a shortsword are things like this: It's finessable You can use it in a grapple It is useful underwater It's legal in a lot of places It's nearly as deadly as a rapier, and equally so vs noncrittable stuff It's a good weapon for a TWF guy who wants to spend all of his weapon focus/spec/mastery feats on one weapon type, and with some of the new feats out there (eg, deadly defense) it's a good choice for a high dexterity, light-fighter type. But the thing is.....such a characer usually does NOT want to be enlarged. His dex is higher than his strength, so he'll usually have a -2 to hit (from dex loss and size) and only get +2 damage on the on-hand weapon (str+2, d6 to d8 weapon) and +1 damage on offhand weapon (str+2 but halved, d6 to d8 weapon). This is not a good tradeoff. Which means either the guy is an unusual TWF guy (like a strength based ranger/barbarian that dumps armor class) or he picked a weapon that didn't work well with his preferred tactic (getting bigger and stronger) - almost any one-handed or two-handed weapon is likely better than a light weapon for such a character to be his only magic weapon.
solbergb 06-19-07, 12:01 AM	That being said, I really like this idea of disguising material components on one's person, and may adopt it for my sneakier/more chaotic PCs. Both Olivia, my sorceress and my wife's draconic gnome sorceress have some secret component pouches grandfathered in at the last conversion. My wife's gnome bought every single type of clothing and installed 4-8 pockets in each one. If her riding dog dies I don't know what we're going to do with her luggage, she certainly isn't strong enough to carry all that....
copper_wyrmling 06-19-07, 12:06 AM	My offensive-caster-oriented cleric, otoh, has spare holy symbol and comp pouch. Prepared casters are MUCH more vulnerable to losing comp pouches especially if they favor material component-dependent spells. Absolutely. Yolande (my L15 generalist cleric) has I think three or four spell component pouches (a couple at her belt and one or two in her handy haversack), and at least three holy symbols - if she plays anything in the Pale when I visit there, her number of backup symbols will shoot up dramatically ;) (I figure thirty disposable wooden holy symbols should be enough for one scenario :P)
LGMoses 06-19-07, 01:20 AM	i don't mean to derail this topic or anything but a friend of mine brought up something yesterday that kinda shocked me and its pertaining to something mentioned in this thread. Do clerics need spell component pouches? Most material component entries if not all clearly say arcane. I started reading through a bunch of spells in the phb and have only found one that just says material component and that is burning incense for the atonement spell. The only other material components listed as non arcane are costly components not covered by the pouch. So clerics really don't have to have spell component pouches rite?
_metz_ 06-19-07, 02:24 AM	i don't mean to derail this topic or anything but a friend of mine brought up something yesterday that kinda shocked me and its pertaining to something mentioned in this thread. Do clerics need spell component pouches? Most material component entries if not all clearly say arcane. I started reading through a bunch of spells in the phb and have only found one that just says material component and that is burning incense for the atonement spell. The only other material components listed as non arcane are costly components not covered by the pouch. So clerics really don't have to have spell component pouches rite? Yeah but WOE betide you if you only have one holy symbol... I know of a 6th level cleric who I played with once who only HAD one, and then when it got stolen by an NPC who later turned on us (overheard the cleric boasting how he only needs one) it was MOST inconvenient.
copper_wyrmling 06-19-07, 02:28 AM	i don't mean to derail this topic or anything but a friend of mine brought up something yesterday that kinda shocked me and its pertaining to something mentioned in this thread. Do clerics need spell component pouches? Most material component entries if not all clearly say arcane. I started reading through a bunch of spells in the phb and have only found one that just says material component and that is burning incense for the atonement spell. The only other material components listed as non arcane are costly components not covered by the pouch. So clerics really don't have to have spell component pouches rite? My cleric didn't buy one with her starting gold, but Brambles and Consecrate have material components, and I think there were some others I found as well.
_metz_ 06-19-07, 03:49 AM	It isn't so much the shortsword as the context. Most of the benefits of a shortsword are things like this: It's finessable You can use it in a grapple It is useful underwater It's legal in a lot of places It's nearly as deadly as a rapier, and equally so vs noncrittable stuff It's a good weapon for a TWF guy who wants to spend all of his weapon focus/spec/mastery feats on one weapon type, and with some of the new feats out there (eg, deadly defense) it's a good choice for a high dexterity, light-fighter type. But the thing is.....such a characer usually does NOT want to be enlarged. His dex is higher than his strength, so he'll usually have a -2 to hit (from dex loss and size) and only get +2 damage on the on-hand weapon (str+2, d6 to d8 weapon) and +1 damage on offhand weapon (str+2 but halved, d6 to d8 weapon). This is not a good tradeoff. Which means either the guy is an unusual TWF guy (like a strength based ranger/barbarian that dumps armor class) or he picked a weapon that didn't work well with his preferred tactic (getting bigger and stronger) - almost any one-handed or two-handed weapon is likely better than a light weapon for such a character to be his only magic weapon. All these reasons were obvious enough for me not to bother responding :) Its essentially my opinion.
Lupo 06-19-07, 07:16 AM	Both Olivia, my sorceress and my wife's draconic gnome sorceress have some secret component pouches grandfathered in at the last conversion. My wife's gnome bought every single type of clothing and installed 4-8 pockets in each one. If her riding dog dies I don't know what we're going to do with her luggage, she certainly isn't strong enough to carry all that.... and that is clearly on the edge of cheating, unless you have campaign documentation ;) you have to use standard items in LG - even for clothing and for spell component pouches - unless you have access to such handy items as hidden pockets and disguised material components. and a DM might stipulate you to use a move action to get components from hidden pockets or other unusual places, at least. and give opponents an AoO. there are some such things in complete scoundrel i think, so if you can get access to those you are fine. ciao martin m.
AOSOL 06-19-07, 09:39 AM	The best teams of players I've seen are the ones that are ALL willing to help out one another. Some of you may know the legendary Greg Sherwood, but when I have the chance to play with Greg he pulls out all the stops for the team and he's the best player I know.
solbergb 06-19-07, 10:21 AM	Do clerics need spell component pouches? Most material component entries if not all clearly say arcane. They do if they want to cast "shield of faith". There aren't many spells with components but the ones that aren't shared with the arcane list have them, and there are a fair number of splatbook spells that don't have DF component but do have M.
solbergb 06-19-07, 10:23 AM	and that is clearly on the edge of cheating, unless you have campaign documentation ;) That's what I meant by "Grandfathered". The 3.5 splatbook conversion let you keep mundane items from 3.0 books. These compartments were such an item, and Gretchen's character was level 1 during the conversion and spent most of her cash on clothing with secret pockets.... They are a move action to retrieve I believe, but it's been a while since I looked at the rule.
LGMoses 06-19-07, 12:33 PM	They do if they want to cast "shield of faith". There aren't many spells with components but the ones that aren't shared with the arcane list have them, and there are a fair number of splatbook spells that don't have DF component but do have M. well, i see now that you are correct. I appreciate it. It was driving me nuts. "Have I been buying my clerics spell component pouches all these years for nothing?" But yes, I'll inform my player of his dire need of a spell component pouch immediately.