Post/Author/DateTime	Post
crustbucket 10-24-04, 01:14 AM	is there any way to get large weapons? unless i'm mistaken, non-magical weapons don't appear on ARs (example: my group killed an ogre with a large axe but it was'nt on the AR) and the LGCS says you can only buy weapons sized small or med from the PHB. but it also says that "monkey grip" from Complete Warrior is a selectable feat which lets you use larger weapons without extra effort (i.e. 1 handed large longsword as 2 handed med sword without feat) but if you can't get a large weapon the feat is basically useless so why would it be selectable? i am also owed a favor where i can have an npc search out an item for me as long as it appears on table 7-2 to 7-28 in the DMG. does that include large? i mean, if that person could find a magical weapon, why not a large one? please tell me this is not just a typo. imagine, dealing 3d6+4 damage with a large greataxe at 3rd level! zoinks!
Simpi 10-24-04, 03:27 AM	i mean, if that person could find a magical weapon, why not a large one? please tell me this is not just a typo. imagine, dealing 3d6+4 damage with a large greataxe at 3rd level! zoinks! I don't know about access with favors but there is a year 4 core module that grants and access to +1 large humanbane greataxe. Of course the APL is quite high but at least it's a possibility to get it. S.H, Naerie webslave
SpaceLord 10-24-04, 04:09 AM	I know of two Yeomanry mods that give access to +1 Large Greatswords. That's 3d6+1 points of love. :D
Cardinal Teplin 10-24-04, 08:03 AM	With suitable craft feats and skills, and maybe the spell woodshape, there is no obvious reason why you can't make your own greatclub or club, as large as you like, after the adventure begins. It won't be magical, or even masterwork, but after casting shillegih, brambles (CD) or spikes (CD) on it, its becomes a perfectly reasonable weapon. All core spells, all good.
Cardinal Teplin 10-24-04, 08:25 AM	The onnwal military also gives access to fullblades, which are large weapons from Sword and Fist.
PunkSniper 10-31-04, 03:37 PM	Monkey grip allows u to use a large (2 handed) weapon in one hand (ie as a med weapon. It does not however allow u to use a huge (2 handed weapon to a large critter) in two hands (ie as a large weapon). I hope that makes sence. As for buying large weapons other than greatswords and great axes (like a 1d12 mace). Although its not in the players handbook, alot of DMs will allow you to buy it as a custom weapon (ie the blasksmith will charge u more for it). there is precedence for this in the Savage Species book, were it gives dmg die adjustments according to size. Also i think there is a table in the 3.5 DMG that addresses size variation of weapons. 2 other things you may be interested in looking into: #1 A former DM of mine told me that you can wield a weapon 2 sizes larger than yourself without a feat, it just gives you a -1 to hit (and possible dmg). Not sure this is true or where it is written if it is. #2 A buddy of mine who likes to crunch numbers told me that using the power attack feat deals more damage than monkey grip. It was in the context of a fighter i made that dual weilded greatsword. My friend said he would actualy deal more damage weidling smaller weapons and using powerattack. this is because monkey grip gives u a -2 to hit and the same -2 used in conjunction with PA give more damage. I havent done the math, but if u want u can look into it
kenobi65 10-31-04, 06:00 PM	Monkey grip allows u to use a large (2 handed) weapon in one hand (ie as a med weapon. It does not however allow u to use a huge (2 handed weapon to a large critter) in two hands (ie as a large weapon). I hope that makes sence. I'm not positive, but I believe you're mistaken on this, and appear to be using 3E terminology to describe the weapons. From Complete Warrior: "You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll, but the amount of effort it takes you to use the weapon does not change. For instance, a Large longsword (a one-handed weapon for a Large creature) is considered a two-handed weapon for a Medium creature that does not have this feat. For a Medium creature that has this feat, it is still considered a one-handed weapon. You can wield a larger light weapon as a light weapon, or a larger two-handed weapon in two hands." In 3.5, all weapons have two descriptors: a size descriptor (i.e., Small, Medium, Large, Huge, etc.), as well as a descriptor that tells you how much effort it takes (for a creature of the appropriate size) to wield the weapon (i.e., light, one-handed, two-handed). (It appears that the default "size descriptor" is medium.) A Large longsword is a one-handed weapon for a Large character; a Large greatsword is a two-handed weapon for a Large character. Essentially, Monkey Grip in 3.5 lets you act as though you are one size category larger than you actually are, for purposes of determining how you wield a weapon (but you do this at a -2 penalty). Thus, with Monkey Grip, a Medium-sized character could indeed wield a Large greatsword (a two-handed weapon for a Large character) with both hands. However, if you actually found a Huge greatsword (i.e., a greatsword sized for a Huge creature), even with Monkey Grip, a Medium-sized character couldn't wield it.
kenobi65 10-31-04, 06:03 PM	As for buying large weapons other than greatswords and great axes (like a 1d12 mace). Although its not in the players handbook, alot of DMs will allow you to buy it as a custom weapon (ie the blasksmith will charge u more for it). there is precedence for this in the Savage Species book, were it gives dmg die adjustments according to size. Also i think there is a table in the 3.5 DMG that addresses size variation of weapons. Keep in mind that the original question related to what's available in Living Greyhawk, and DM discretion on these kinds of things isn't allowed. Things are either explicitly allowed (via the LG rules, local triad rules, or availability in the Adventure Record), or they're not allowed at all.
Cardinal Teplin 11-01-04, 06:38 AM	I've just played a year3 core that has huge weapons on the AR. Pricy though... The other thing to bear in mind is that many large creatures are armed, and there is no reason why you can't steal their weapons for the rest of that adventure. But in general power attack is almost always better than using a weapon that's too big for you. There are exceptions, but they're pretty obscure.
King Kashue 11-02-04, 01:44 PM	But in general power attack is almost always better than using a weapon that's too big for you. There are exceptions, but they're pretty obscure. Indeed...Statistically, 1 point of attack bonus is equal to 2 points of damage (generally, attack bonus is actually more valuable, and increases in value as the AC of the enemy increases...The 1=2 ratio is at about AC19 or so)... Best case scenario from monkey grip, you gain an extra d6 (and that's using a two handed weapon)...That d6 will do an average of 3.5 points of damage more, and you're losing 2 to your attack bonus...2 points of attack bonus is worth more than 3.5 points of damage...Statistically, monkey grip is not worthwhile...
crustbucket 11-03-04, 08:03 PM	thanks for all the input. the reason i was thinking monkey grip is better than power attack is because with my 3rd level fighter it breaks down like so: BAB +3, str +4 (two-handed wielding), weapon focus +1 atk, and a masterwork weapon +1 atk for a total of +9 atk and 1d12+4 damage. with full power attack: +6 atk for 1d12+7 damage (min 8, max 19). with monkey grip: +7 atk for 3d6+4 damage (min 7, max 22). so in my opinion, i think monkey grip has a slight advantage over power attack. plus it just makes my pc look cooler with an oversized greataxe. i would also like to know about this question specifically in living greyhawk. thanks
King Kashue 11-04-04, 08:57 PM	thanks for all the input. the reason i was thinking monkey grip is better than power attack is because with my 3rd level fighter it breaks down like so: BAB +3, str +4 (two-handed wielding), weapon focus +1 atk, and a masterwork weapon +1 atk for a total of +9 atk and 1d12+4 damage. with full power attack: +6 atk for 1d12+7 damage (min 8, max 19). with monkey grip: +7 atk for 3d6+4 damage (min 7, max 22). so in my opinion, i think monkey grip has a slight advantage over power attack. plus it just makes my pc look cooler with an oversized greataxe. i would also like to know about this question specifically in living greyhawk. thanks Well, you've got an issue there any way...If you've got a +4 STR modifier, your bonus to damage is +6 when wielding a weapon 2 handed...And, when you power attack with a 2 handed weapon, you get +2 damage for every +1 attack penalty... So your normal stats are: +9 attack, 1d12+6 damage (7-18, avg. 12.5) Your stats while full power attacking are: +6 attack, 1d12+12 damage (13-24, avg. 18.5) With Monkey grip your normal is: +7 attack, 3d6+6 (9-24, avg. 16.5) And power attacking: +4 attack, 3d6+12 (15-25, avg. 22.5) The easiest comparison I can give you (and I've got spreadsheets showing the average damage of 100 attacks at various ACs and attack bonuses, but I doubt you want to see that) is what you do normally at two different BABs... If you power attack for 2 with your normal axe: +7 attack, 1d12+10 (11-22, avg. 16.5) If you look at your normal with Monkey grip it's: +7 attack, 3d6+6 (9-24, avg. 16.5) And if you power attack for 3 normally it's: +6 attack, 1d12+12 damage (13-24, avg. 18.5) If you power attack for 1 with monkey grip: +6 attack, 3d6+8 (11-26, avg. 18.5) The average damage you do (which will always be what you will do over time) is exactly the same (And it's only the same because we're dealing with a Great Axe...Greatswords do more average damage without monkey grip, 2d6 v. 1d12, and almost every other weapon does as well...None does better)...But with Monkey grip you've spent a feat you could spend on something else...
crustbucket 11-04-04, 09:45 PM	Well, you've got an issue there any way...If you've got a +4 STR modifier, your bonus to damage is +6 when wielding a weapon 2 handed...And, when you power attack with a 2 handed weapon, you get +2 damage for every +1 attack penalty... So your normal stats are: +9 attack, 1d12+6 damage (7-18, avg. 12.5) Your stats while full power attacking are: +6 attack, 1d12+12 damage (13-24, avg. 18.5) With Monkey grip your normal is: +7 attack, 3d6+6 (9-24, avg. 16.5) And power attacking: +4 attack, 3d6+12 (15-25, avg. 22.5) The easiest comparison I can give you (and I've got spreadsheets showing the average damage of 100 attacks at various ACs and attack bonuses, but I doubt you want to see that) is what you do normally at two different BABs... If you power attack for 2 with your normal axe: +7 attack, 1d12+10 (11-22, avg. 16.5) If you look at your normal with Monkey grip it's: +7 attack, 3d6+6 (9-24, avg. 16.5) And if you power attack for 3 normally it's: +6 attack, 1d12+12 damage (13-24, avg. 18.5) If you power attack for 1 with monkey grip: +6 attack, 3d6+8 (11-26, avg. 18.5) The average damage you do (which will always be what you will do over time) is exactly the same (And it's only the same because we're dealing with a Great Axe...Greatswords do more average damage without monkey grip, 2d6 v. 1d12, and almost every other weapon does as well...None does better)...But with Monkey grip you've spent a feat you could spend on something else... my Str mod is'nt +4, it's +3 so two-handed wielding gives me the +4 (3x1.5=4.5 rounded to +4) but i think i agree with you that it might not be worth the feat. thanks for all the opinions and info.
King Kashue 11-05-04, 12:18 AM	my Str mod is'nt +4, it's +3 so two-handed wielding gives me the +4 (3x1.5=4.5 rounded to +4) but i think i agree with you that it might not be worth the feat. thanks for all the opinions and info. Ah, well, all the average numbers drop two then, but there's still no advantage to Monkey grip (because all the averages are the same, they're just two less)... By the way, how do you get to +9 to hit then?...The x1.5 strength bonus when 2 handed is only to damage, not to hit...3 BAB + 3 Str + 1 Weapon Focus + 1 Masterwork is only +8...(the +9 is why I thought that was your base Str bonus)...
Thannin 11-10-04, 06:40 PM	I think it'd be fun to point out my huge greataxe wielder of doom for LG :). Im completely legit and here's how. 1) I use most of my 4th level spells(Im a 13th level arcane caster) for polymorph into a Annis hag. 2) I'm now large. 3) I have a certed Huge greataxe +1 which Im upgrading when I get the cash 4) I have monkey grip :) Now we might ask why in the heck is a arcane spellcaster not casting? 5) arcane strike, allows me to forget about fireballs and memorize ALL utility spells, Im the party's best friend, as I almost always have the right spell at the right time. 6)Mathematically Im prone to do more damage. I do 13d6 for a cone of cold or any other spell per enemy, but in my vast experience with playing casters, you rarely face more than 4 enemies at once in a high apl table, and the saves to DC's ratio is horrendous, monsters are prone to make their saves at high APL. With a BA of 6, I can arcane strike for 6 as a free action. With buills strength my strength goes up to 30 while polymorphed. Strength 30 two handed weapon proficiency haste flames of purity BA:6/1 +6(Bab)+10(strength)+3(GMW)+6(arcane strike)+1(haste)-3(size/monkey grip)=+23/+23/+18. damage is 4d6+15(strength)+6d4(AS)+3(GMW)+1d6(fire )+13(fire).Average damage comes out to 58 per hit. Average damage from a 13d6 damage even if save fails is only 45.5. I love monkey grip and oversized weapons. Not to mention most people laugh for about fifteen minutes when they see a dwarf in robes dragging a huge sized greataxe around(8 strength normally). Of course, until they see what I can do with careful planning :)>Just thought Id care to share that in some instances monkey grip can do wonderful things.
King Kashue 11-11-04, 04:37 AM	I think it'd be fun to point out my huge greataxe wielder of doom for LG :). Im completely legit and here's how. 1) I use most of my 4th level spells(Im a 13th level arcane caster) for polymorph into a Annis hag. 2) I'm now large. 3) I have a certed Huge greataxe +1 which Im upgrading when I get the cash 4) I have monkey grip :) Now we might ask why in the heck is a arcane spellcaster not casting? 5) arcane strike, allows me to forget about fireballs and memorize ALL utility spells, Im the party's best friend, as I almost always have the right spell at the right time. 6)Mathematically Im prone to do more damage. I do 13d6 for a cone of cold or any other spell per enemy, but in my vast experience with playing casters, you rarely face more than 4 enemies at once in a high apl table, and the saves to DC's ratio is horrendous, monsters are prone to make their saves at high APL. With a BA of 6, I can arcane strike for 6 as a free action. With buills strength my strength goes up to 30 while polymorphed. Strength 30 two handed weapon proficiency haste flames of purity BA:6/1 +6(Bab)+10(strength)+3(GMW)+6(arcane strike)+1(haste)-3(size/monkey grip)=+23/+23/+18. damage is 4d6+15(strength)+6d4(AS)+3(GMW)+1d6(fire )+13(fire).Average damage comes out to 58 per hit. Average damage from a 13d6 damage even if save fails is only 45.5. I love monkey grip and oversized weapons. Not to mention most people laugh for about fifteen minutes when they see a dwarf in robes dragging a huge sized greataxe around(8 strength normally). Of course, until they see what I can do with careful planning :)>Just thought Id care to share that in some instances monkey grip can do wonderful things. Thing is though, only 1d6 of that is from monkey grip (going from large axe 3d6 to huge axe 4d6)...You still lose +2 BAB from monkey grip to gain 3.5 average damage...If you had power attack instead of monkey grip, you'd get 4 damage for the 2 BAB (And even more if you wanted it)... The only instance in which it is statistically advantageous is for a weapon that does 2d8 or 2d10 damage...That weapon goes to 3d8 or 4d8 respectively, with a size increase...The statistical extra damage from the d8 is 4.5, which is worth the -2 BAB (in most circumstances, at the very least it's better than you can do with power attack)...With the 2d10 the average damage goes up by 7, which is well worth it... Thing is, there is no item that does more than 2d6 in the PHB...So it would have to be a special access medium weapon that did 2d8 or 2d10...Those would be the only instances in which monkey grip would be a statistical advantage... All that said, a large PC whipping around a huge greataxe is pretty damn sweet, regardless of the statistics...and that's probably more important than anything else...
Thannin 11-11-04, 02:57 PM	True, but see, my wizard doesn't qualify for power attack, and therefore there's no real comparison because I can use monkey grip always, but would only be able to use power attack while polymorphed. I do oh so love the face of a dm when I state Im dragging a huge great axe, and the best part is most monsters think that I got it as some kind of trophy :). Clearly a feeble dwarf in robes cannot wield a huge weapon.Ah the faces my groups make, when I try to "protect" the two weapon fighting 15th level ranger.
Iswald 11-22-04, 10:29 PM	Regarding the original question, when you create a new character, you have to select a weapon appropriate to the character's size. However, because the core rules in the PHB allow you to buy a large weapon and state the cost for doing so, you should be able to purchase a large weapon at any point after your character is started.
hustonjj 11-23-04, 12:05 AM	Regarding the original question, when you create a new character, you have to select a weapon appropriate to the character's size. However, because the core rules in the PHB allow you to buy a large weapon and state the cost for doing so, you should be able to purchase a large weapon at any point after your character is started. Close, BUT . . .. This is the Living Greyhawk section of the boards, and the answer needs to be correct under the rules of the Living Greyhawk campaign. According to the campaign documentation, you may purchase ONLY small or medium weapons from the PHB unless you gain campaign documentation alowing additional purchases, and such documentation will allow a specific purchase.
Phoenixcommander 12-11-04, 06:04 AM	Close, BUT . . .. This is the Living Greyhawk section of the boards, and the answer needs to be correct under the rules of the Living Greyhawk campaign. According to the campaign documentation, you may purchase ONLY small or medium weapons from the PHB unless you gain campaign documentation alowing additional purchases, and such documentation will allow a specific purchase. Really John? Because I have seen A LOT of folks running around with large weapons that were just purchased outright w/o an AR to back it up. All because the judge allowed it at the table, in some cases it was a triad member who allowed it...so I just want to be REALLY sure if I am judging a table and ever call someone on it. Oh, by the way I read a lot of posts by both you and Kenobi (I forgot his actual name) and though some peolpe don't always appreciate your candor...I do. A Big thanks to both of you for being the voices of reasons on sometimes runaway topics. (The rolling up stats for RPGA comes to mind) Regards, Andrew T.
kenobi65 12-11-04, 11:37 AM	Oh, by the way I read a lot of posts by both you and Kenobi (I forgot his actual name) and though some peolpe don't always appreciate your candor...I do. A Big thanks to both of you for being the voices of reasons on sometimes runaway topics. (The rolling up stats for RPGA comes to mind). Thanks, Andrew. I do try, even if I don't always succeed. :D Mike Mistele
CruelDM 12-11-04, 02:24 PM	FYI, the concensus on the LGDMs yahoo group is that you cannot buy oversized weapons without AR access or campaign documentation. I know the Yeomanry regional adventures have, in the past, allowed access on the AR to oversized and oversized magical weapons. We fight Giants and Giant-kin alot over here. I have no opinion if they are right or wrong, but have never allowed a player to buy one without access, much to some of my players dismay.
hustonjj 12-11-04, 05:00 PM	Really John? Because I have seen A LOT of folks running around with large weapons that were just purchased outright w/o an AR to back it up. First, it is Jeff, not John. Second, the LGCS, Page 14, Items Found during the Adventure, second paragraph begins with the statement: "Once your character has completed one Living Greyhawk adventure, you may purchase equipment based on the following rules." The second bullet in the series (top of the second column on the page) says "Table 7-5: Weapons (small & medium sized)" Earlier in the document, page 10, it says the same thing about initial purchases for starting characters. A Living Greyhawk character may not purchase a Large (or larger) weapon without campaign documentation to do so. If you have proof that people are doing so, then you have proof that people are failing to comply with the campaign standard, and they need to be corrected in keeping with the RPGA's guidelines for Ethical Play and Infraction Standards.
King Kashue 12-12-04, 12:30 AM	First, it is Jeff, not John. Second, the LGCS, Page 14, Items Found during the Adventure, second paragraph begins with the statement: "Once your character has completed one Living Greyhawk adventure, you may purchase equipment based on the following rules." The second bullet in the series (top of the second column on the page) says "Table 7-5: Weapons (small & medium sized)" Earlier in the document, page 10, it says the same thing about initial purchases for starting characters. A Living Greyhawk character may not purchase a Large (or larger) weapon without campaign documentation to do so. If you have proof that people are doing so, then you have proof that people are failing to comply with the campaign standard, and they need to be corrected in keeping with the RPGA's guidelines for Ethical Play and Infraction Standards. They can however buy both Chickens and Warships :D
Cardinal Teplin 12-13-04, 07:28 PM	The only instance in which it is statistically advantageous is for a weapon that does 2d8 or 2d10 damage...So it would have to be a special access medium weapon that did 2d8 or 2d10...Those would be the only instances in which monkey grip would be a statistical advantage... As I said, the exceptions are obscure, but they do exist Obvious one is people who can't take power attack, or don't benefit from it because they use light weapons. Less obvious is something like a Gargantuan greatclub wielding druid in treant form, who casts shillegh. Great club goes from d10 medium to 2d8 for large, to 3d8 for huge. Shilleigh is going to up aother two steps, to 4d8 and then to 6d8. Monkey grip would add an extra 2d8 to make 8d8. But seeing as how that involves a druid with martial weapon proficiency, who makes his own Gargantuan greatclub at the start of every adventure, and casts that particular buff spell at the start of every fight, I'd say it's pretty obscure.
King Kashue 12-13-04, 11:34 PM	As I said, the exceptions are obscure, but they do exist Obvious one is people who can't take power attack, or don't benefit from it because they use light weapons. Less obvious is something like a Gargantuan greatclub wielding druid in treant form, who casts shillegh. Great club goes from d10 medium to 2d8 for large, to 3d8 for huge. Shilleigh is going to up aother two steps, to 4d8 and then to 6d8. Monkey grip would add an extra 2d8 to make 8d8. But seeing as how that involves a druid with martial weapon proficiency, who makes his own Gargantuan greatclub at the start of every adventure, and casts that particular buff spell at the start of every fight, I'd say it's pretty obscure. So...when is Teplin going to be able to do that? (Gnome to Treant in 3 easy steps!) Yeah, there are instances where it's statistically valid...Any time you're adding a d8 or more...Which can only happen in funky instances, since the 'standard' weapons don't deal with that... The thing about people who don't take power attack, it's only a statistical advantage at lower ACs (as is power attack)...At Around AC 20-22 you will do more damage over a number of attacks with the BAB instead of the extra damage because you'll hit more (and it holds true even as levels rise since it's now the secondary and tertiary attacks that are hitting more often)...
Phoenixcommander 12-14-04, 11:36 PM	First, it is Jeff, not John. Second, the LGCS, Page 14, Items Found during the Adventure, second paragraph begins with the statement: "Once your character has completed one Living Greyhawk adventure, you may purchase equipment based on the following rules." The second bullet in the series (top of the second column on the page) says "Table 7-5: Weapons (small & medium sized)" Earlier in the document, page 10, it says the same thing about initial purchases for starting characters. A Living Greyhawk character may not purchase a Large (or larger) weapon without campaign documentation to do so. If you have proof that people are doing so, then you have proof that people are failing to comply with the campaign standard, and they need to be corrected in keeping with the RPGA's guidelines for Ethical Play and Infraction Standards. First things first...sorry Jeff, I knew that too but I was trying to multi-task and was writing an e-mail to a friend named John...I think I called him Jeff in his e-mail! <LOL> Anyway, I was pretty sure about that but I really feel like the outsider sometimes when I try and play completely by the rules. It did seem like a small thing at the time, but should I be at a convention or especially Gen-Con, then I want all my little ducks in a row. <s> Thanks for your input, as always it is appreciated. Andrew T.