Obtaining spells from complete arcane [Archive] - Wizards Community

Obtaining spells from complete arcane [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
diablobasher
08-22-05, 07:03 AM Is it possible to buy scrolls of spells that are not in the DMG?

Im looking to add Greater Mage armor, and Fireburst to my spellbook, i know they arent restricted or anything, but i dontknow if i can simply buy a scroll of them. do i have to find them on an AR?
Sieylianna
08-22-05, 10:49 AM Is it possible to buy scrolls of spells that are not in the DMG?

Im looking to add Greater Mage armor, and Fireburst to my spellbook, i know they arent restricted or anything, but i dontknow if i can simply buy a scroll of them. do i have to find them on an AR?

You need specific access (AR or meta-org) to purchase scrolls that aren't in the DMG.

Ed
diablobasher
08-22-05, 10:51 AM but i can still get the spells if i take them when i level up yes?
kauchakwa
08-22-05, 11:26 AM As listed in the LGCS (p15), you can freely purchase "any scroll from DMG Tables 7-23 & 7-24 with a market price of 750 gp or less." You can not buy scrolls listed in other sources unless you have specific AR access.

At 3rd level and up, you can take core spells, feats, etc. from non-core sources, so yes, you could take those two spells as your free level-gain spells and then you can create your own scrolls without having AR access.

Shield Lands Web Monkey
Winnipegger
08-22-05, 01:45 PM Just as an addition to what was already said, an additional way to gain spells outside of the PHB, as a wizard only, is through other wizards' spellbooks. If another wizard's spellbook contains a spell that doesn't fall under the "Limited" or "Restricted" section of the LGCS, you can freely copy that spell into your spellbook. The benefit for doing this of course lies in the fact that you can't buy a scroll of a non-PHB spell (without campaign documentation) so you can't copy the spell into your book using the method of scrolls.
diablobasher
08-22-05, 02:31 PM thanks for the help :)
Amerikajin
08-26-05, 03:21 PM At 3rd level and up, you can take core spells, feats, etc. from non-core sources, so yes, you could take those two spells as your free level-gain spells and then you can create your own scrolls without having AR access.
I am confused by this. So if a spell is listed in the LGCS as "Core", I still can't take it until 3rd level? So like if I wanted to have Lesser Orb of Acid instead of Magic Missle at 1st level, I can't?
Winnipegger
08-26-05, 03:32 PM Absolutely; core means you may not take that spell or feat until 3rd level. One reason was stated (by Circle members) something along the lines of ensuring new players don't gets overwhelmed by the many options out there from the non-core books (such as the Complete series and the Races series).

There are players that disagree with this ruling (as discussed in the Living Greyhawk yahoo group) but that's certainly how it stands at this point in time.

The few exceptions to the 3rd level rule are clerics being able to take domains outside of the PHB upon character creation, and the expanded core classes (i.e. Scout, Warmage).
Amerikajin
08-26-05, 06:35 PM I must admit I am nonplussed by this. Seems like more options is a good thing, not a bad thing (for those players who want them). But hey, I'm still playin!

OK, so riddle me this. Suppose I hit 3rd level wizard, and I want to pick up Lesser Orb of Acid. Clearly, I do not want to use one of my freebies for this (they should be 2nd level spells). Since the spell is "Core" and now allowed, can I pay to get it into my spellbook "from thin air" as it were (since it is Core), or do I have to have it show up on an AR (I think it was already mentioned in this thread that I can't buy a scroll for it)? If I have to have it show up on an AR, then what is the reason for the distinction between Core and Limited? Thanks in advance. :)
Winnipegger
08-27-05, 12:20 AM I must admit I am nonplussed by this. Seems like more options is a good thing, not a bad thing (for those players who want them). But hey, I'm still playin!

OK, so riddle me this. Suppose I hit 3rd level wizard, and I want to pick up Lesser Orb of Acid. Clearly, I do not want to use one of my freebies for this (they should be 2nd level spells). Since the spell is "Core" and now allowed, can I pay to get it into my spellbook "from thin air" as it were (since it is Core), or do I have to have it show up on an AR (I think it was already mentioned in this thread that I can't buy a scroll for it)? If I have to have it show up on an AR, then what is the reason for the distinction between Core and Limited? Thanks in advance. :)

Unless you're provided with a spellbook "library" (such as from a meta-organization of your home region), you can't pay to get the spell into your spellbook "from thin air" as you put it.

The thing is, when spells outside of the PHB appear on ARs, they would either be:
(a) a favor (i.e. an NPC grants you access to copy a spell through their resources)
(b) a scroll (to copy the spell into the spellbook from)
(c) a spellbook (same as (c) )

Limited spells have to show up on ARs in order to gain access to them, because Limited spells require campaign documentation.

Core spells on the other hand can be gained by the above methods, and one additional method: you can copy a core spell from another player's spellbook. This cannot be done with "Limited" spells, as per page 65 of the LGCS: "Q: Can my wizard copy a non-core spell out of another PC's spellbook and have it noted in the play notes section on my adventure record? A: No. You must have campaign or regional documentation to have a spell appearing on the limited list. A note in the play notes section of your adventure record does not qualify." Also, if a PC in question somehow gains access "any" to a scroll of lesser acid orb and chooses to sacrifice 25gp for a wizard at a table, this would be allowed. Such wouldn't be the case for Limited spells. Then there's what was already pointed out; core spells may be taken as part of the two free spells gained.

At the moment, that's the only distinction I can think of between Core and Limited.

In the case where one would consider taking a 1st non-PHB spell at 3rd level but would not want to sacrifice a free 2nd level spell instead, should the 2nd level spells planned on being taken happen to be readily available (i.e. from the PHB), it can certainly be a payoff. Taking Glitterdust and Lesser Acid Orb over Glitterdust and Scorching Ray would result in being able to have Glitterdust, Scorching Ray, and Lesser Acid Orb, for the cost of 150(scroll)+200(copying the Scorching Ray scroll)=350. That's where you ask yourself if it's worth 350 gold having Lesser Acid Orb into your spellbook. If one prefers a 2nd level non-PHB spell, then that's another issue altogether and this wouldn't apply.

As a side note, clerics and druids have a greater benefit of access to core spells in comparison to arcane casters because they can just pick and choose from the core spells upon reaching 3rd level. Wizards have a much more difficult time, and sorcerors even more, because at least wizards can copy spells and prepare them after; sorcerors always have to wait until they level, unless they gain a favor allowing them to switch out their known spells at that given moment.

Hope that helps,

---
Chris Tiodin
Amerikajin
08-27-05, 07:26 AM Thanks for the good explanation! It occurred to me after the fact that the scenario I was thinking of was not as applicable to sorcerers, who receive first level spells at third level and beyond. And your point about picking a core up as a freebie and then buying a second level from PHB is a good one! I'll definitely consider doing that. Thanks again. :D
ezreal2001
08-28-05, 04:00 AM Thanks for the good explanation! It occurred to me after the fact that the scenario I was thinking of was not as applicable to sorcerers, who receive first level spells at third level and beyond. And your point about picking a core up as a freebie and then buying a second level from PHB is a good one! I'll definitely consider doing that. Thanks again. :D

Don't forget to go through the spell books of wizards when you play with them

When conversion happened the local Wizard players sat down and created a huge spread sheet for who was taking what BB spell - they've copying spell books ever since.
The_Elder
08-29-05, 04:29 AM BB = ??

what are you saying?

The:dice:Elder
kenobi65
08-29-05, 11:03 AM BB = ??

what are you saying?

BB = Builder Book, I'm guessing, though I think that term was technically for the 3E books like "Tome & Blood." I've not heard that term applied to the 3.5 Complete books.
Samwise
08-29-05, 03:06 PM BB = Builder Book, I'm guessing, though I think that term was technically for the 3E books like "Tome & Blood." I've not heard that term applied to the 3.5 Complete books.

That is because they comprise the "Hero Series Supplements."
At least according to the product listings. :P
Most of the various releases are part of some series or other, although few seem to be particularly well-referenced or cared about.
The_Elder
08-30-05, 03:47 AM My bad....didnt reckignise it and couldnt find it in the Dictinary

thanks
The:dice:Elder
Lobotaru
09-01-05, 11:43 AM Well, if the spell isn't restricted or limited, you can bypass the item rule by simply learning it through level advancement. Those particular rules about purchasing spells is somewhat disorganized considering the fact that if the spells from named supplement are considered core, there should be no problem with you purchasing the spell since you could learn it through class advancement anyway.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
diablobasher 08-22-05, 07:03 AM	Is it possible to buy scrolls of spells that are not in the DMG? Im looking to add Greater Mage armor, and Fireburst to my spellbook, i know they arent restricted or anything, but i dontknow if i can simply buy a scroll of them. do i have to find them on an AR?
Sieylianna 08-22-05, 10:49 AM	Is it possible to buy scrolls of spells that are not in the DMG? Im looking to add Greater Mage armor, and Fireburst to my spellbook, i know they arent restricted or anything, but i dontknow if i can simply buy a scroll of them. do i have to find them on an AR? You need specific access (AR or meta-org) to purchase scrolls that aren't in the DMG. Ed
diablobasher 08-22-05, 10:51 AM	but i can still get the spells if i take them when i level up yes?
kauchakwa 08-22-05, 11:26 AM	As listed in the LGCS (p15), you can freely purchase "any scroll from DMG Tables 7-23 & 7-24 with a market price of 750 gp or less." You can not buy scrolls listed in other sources unless you have specific AR access. At 3rd level and up, you can take core spells, feats, etc. from non-core sources, so yes, you could take those two spells as your free level-gain spells and then you can create your own scrolls without having AR access. Shield Lands Web Monkey
Winnipegger 08-22-05, 01:45 PM	Just as an addition to what was already said, an additional way to gain spells outside of the PHB, as a wizard only, is through other wizards' spellbooks. If another wizard's spellbook contains a spell that doesn't fall under the "Limited" or "Restricted" section of the LGCS, you can freely copy that spell into your spellbook. The benefit for doing this of course lies in the fact that you can't buy a scroll of a non-PHB spell (without campaign documentation) so you can't copy the spell into your book using the method of scrolls.
diablobasher 08-22-05, 02:31 PM	thanks for the help :)
Amerikajin 08-26-05, 03:21 PM	At 3rd level and up, you can take core spells, feats, etc. from non-core sources, so yes, you could take those two spells as your free level-gain spells and then you can create your own scrolls without having AR access. I am confused by this. So if a spell is listed in the LGCS as "Core", I still can't take it until 3rd level? So like if I wanted to have Lesser Orb of Acid instead of Magic Missle at 1st level, I can't?
Winnipegger 08-26-05, 03:32 PM	Absolutely; core means you may not take that spell or feat until 3rd level. One reason was stated (by Circle members) something along the lines of ensuring new players don't gets overwhelmed by the many options out there from the non-core books (such as the Complete series and the Races series). There are players that disagree with this ruling (as discussed in the Living Greyhawk yahoo group) but that's certainly how it stands at this point in time. The few exceptions to the 3rd level rule are clerics being able to take domains outside of the PHB upon character creation, and the expanded core classes (i.e. Scout, Warmage).
Amerikajin 08-26-05, 06:35 PM	I must admit I am nonplussed by this. Seems like more options is a good thing, not a bad thing (for those players who want them). But hey, I'm still playin! OK, so riddle me this. Suppose I hit 3rd level wizard, and I want to pick up Lesser Orb of Acid. Clearly, I do not want to use one of my freebies for this (they should be 2nd level spells). Since the spell is "Core" and now allowed, can I pay to get it into my spellbook "from thin air" as it were (since it is Core), or do I have to have it show up on an AR (I think it was already mentioned in this thread that I can't buy a scroll for it)? If I have to have it show up on an AR, then what is the reason for the distinction between Core and Limited? Thanks in advance. :)
Winnipegger 08-27-05, 12:20 AM	I must admit I am nonplussed by this. Seems like more options is a good thing, not a bad thing (for those players who want them). But hey, I'm still playin! OK, so riddle me this. Suppose I hit 3rd level wizard, and I want to pick up Lesser Orb of Acid. Clearly, I do not want to use one of my freebies for this (they should be 2nd level spells). Since the spell is "Core" and now allowed, can I pay to get it into my spellbook "from thin air" as it were (since it is Core), or do I have to have it show up on an AR (I think it was already mentioned in this thread that I can't buy a scroll for it)? If I have to have it show up on an AR, then what is the reason for the distinction between Core and Limited? Thanks in advance. :) Unless you're provided with a spellbook "library" (such as from a meta-organization of your home region), you can't pay to get the spell into your spellbook "from thin air" as you put it. The thing is, when spells outside of the PHB appear on ARs, they would either be: (a) a favor (i.e. an NPC grants you access to copy a spell through their resources) (b) a scroll (to copy the spell into the spellbook from) (c) a spellbook (same as (c) ) Limited spells have to show up on ARs in order to gain access to them, because Limited spells require campaign documentation. Core spells on the other hand can be gained by the above methods, and one additional method: you can copy a core spell from another player's spellbook. This cannot be done with "Limited" spells, as per page 65 of the LGCS: "Q: Can my wizard copy a non-core spell out of another PC's spellbook and have it noted in the play notes section on my adventure record? A: No. You must have campaign or regional documentation to have a spell appearing on the limited list. A note in the play notes section of your adventure record does not qualify." Also, if a PC in question somehow gains access "any" to a scroll of lesser acid orb and chooses to sacrifice 25gp for a wizard at a table, this would be allowed. Such wouldn't be the case for Limited spells. Then there's what was already pointed out; core spells may be taken as part of the two free spells gained. At the moment, that's the only distinction I can think of between Core and Limited. In the case where one would consider taking a 1st non-PHB spell at 3rd level but would not want to sacrifice a free 2nd level spell instead, should the 2nd level spells planned on being taken happen to be readily available (i.e. from the PHB), it can certainly be a payoff. Taking Glitterdust and Lesser Acid Orb over Glitterdust and Scorching Ray would result in being able to have Glitterdust, Scorching Ray, and Lesser Acid Orb, for the cost of 150(scroll)+200(copying the Scorching Ray scroll)=350. That's where you ask yourself if it's worth 350 gold having Lesser Acid Orb into your spellbook. If one prefers a 2nd level non-PHB spell, then that's another issue altogether and this wouldn't apply. As a side note, clerics and druids have a greater benefit of access to core spells in comparison to arcane casters because they can just pick and choose from the core spells upon reaching 3rd level. Wizards have a much more difficult time, and sorcerors even more, because at least wizards can copy spells and prepare them after; sorcerors always have to wait until they level, unless they gain a favor allowing them to switch out their known spells at that given moment. Hope that helps, --- Chris Tiodin
Amerikajin 08-27-05, 07:26 AM	Thanks for the good explanation! It occurred to me after the fact that the scenario I was thinking of was not as applicable to sorcerers, who receive first level spells at third level and beyond. And your point about picking a core up as a freebie and then buying a second level from PHB is a good one! I'll definitely consider doing that. Thanks again. :D
ezreal2001 08-28-05, 04:00 AM	Thanks for the good explanation! It occurred to me after the fact that the scenario I was thinking of was not as applicable to sorcerers, who receive first level spells at third level and beyond. And your point about picking a core up as a freebie and then buying a second level from PHB is a good one! I'll definitely consider doing that. Thanks again. :D Don't forget to go through the spell books of wizards when you play with them When conversion happened the local Wizard players sat down and created a huge spread sheet for who was taking what BB spell - they've copying spell books ever since.
The_Elder 08-29-05, 04:29 AM	BB = ?? what are you saying? The:dice:Elder
kenobi65 08-29-05, 11:03 AM	BB = ?? what are you saying? BB = Builder Book, I'm guessing, though I think that term was technically for the 3E books like "Tome & Blood." I've not heard that term applied to the 3.5 Complete books.
Samwise 08-29-05, 03:06 PM	BB = Builder Book, I'm guessing, though I think that term was technically for the 3E books like "Tome & Blood." I've not heard that term applied to the 3.5 Complete books. That is because they comprise the "Hero Series Supplements." At least according to the product listings. :P Most of the various releases are part of some series or other, although few seem to be particularly well-referenced or cared about.
The_Elder 08-30-05, 03:47 AM	My bad....didnt reckignise it and couldnt find it in the Dictinary thanks The:dice:Elder
Lobotaru 09-01-05, 11:43 AM	Well, if the spell isn't restricted or limited, you can bypass the item rule by simply learning it through level advancement. Those particular rules about purchasing spells is somewhat disorganized considering the fact that if the spells from named supplement are considered core, there should be no problem with you purchasing the spell since you could learn it through class advancement anyway.