Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vanadium 01-14-07, 11:23 AM	I believe this general forum is the best place for this (if it even belongs here at all). Sorry for the very verbose nature of my posts. I have recently begun playing in Living Greyhawk, and I began by playing the Wizard I wanted to for years: a Battlefield Control Mage. You see, I have yet to cast any damage spell whatsoever. In the earlier levels, sleep and color spray easily justified this decision, but now that I am third level, people seem to be more questioning on why I'm not launching magic missiles. I ended my last session and I was excited about being close to a level, and off-handed stated that I wouldn't get too much, as I wouldn't get a new spell level. DM says, "Well, at least you have the most important thing: 1 level closer to fireball". We talked a short bit after that, with my basic stance being I could do more by aiding the fighters and others than simply blasting with spells. He says that's all well and good, but at APL 6, fighters are very weak, and by APL 8 they are worthless. He basically said if I wanted to play a successful wizard in LG, as soon as APL 6 I had to do exactly what his wizard does and blast like there is no tomorrow. Personally, I think that the advice he gave me is a little skewed, as I have seen some very poor tanks in the area, and he might just be speaking from similar experiences brought on by a poorly made tank. Basically, I have two questions: 1. Is this doomsaying correct and are Fighter-types horribly outclassed as the APL rises? I know that Fighter-types only gain so much by leveling as opposed to, say, casters, but I didn't think they were 'worthless' as he put it, or at least as soon as he claims (He plainly stated his only role at 7th level is to hold back enemies so the mage can kill them all single-handedly). 2. Am I wrong for playing a utility/battlefield control mage instead of a blaster type in LG? I don't wish to play a blaster mage as it basically flys in the face of everything I know, but at the same time I don't wish to be compared to a basketweaver extraordinaire.
Arvagor 01-14-07, 11:40 AM	2. Am I wrong for playing a utility/battlefield control mage instead of a blaster type in LG? I don't wish to play a blaster mage as it basically flys in the face of everything I know, but at the same time I don't wish to be compared to a basketweaver extraordinaire.I have a rogue who doesn't sneak (i.e., no ranks in Hide or Move Silently) and a druid who doesn't cast spells when wild-shaped, and I get rolling eyes when I state those facts sitting down to the table, but I've yet to have anyone complain once the adventure was done that I didn't effectively contribute to the party. Play your wizard however you wish to play him, as long as he is effective and does something during encounters (note, I don't say "combat"), instead of simply contemplating his navel...
Lupo 01-14-07, 11:45 AM	Basically, I have two questions: 1. Is this doomsaying correct and are Fighter-types horribly outclassed as the APL rises? I know that Fighter-types only gain so much by leveling as opposed to, say, casters, but I didn't think they were 'worthless' as he put it, or at least as soon as he claims (He plainly stated his only role at 7th level is to hold back enemies so the mage can kill them all single-handedly). 2. Am I wrong for playing a utility/battlefield control mage instead of a blaster type in LG? I don't wish to play a blaster mage as it basically flys in the face of everything I know, but at the same time I don't wish to be compared to a basketweaver extraordinaire. fighter types - when played and build correctly - are NOT outclassed by any magic user ;), they never have to say "uhps, i have run out of spells" even as a "battlefield control" mage you should have some firepower, and magic missile is one the 90% reliable spells, as is a fireball, and both do scale with level increase (at leats up to level 10) at third level, you might be torn between "haste" and "fireball" and then "haste" is most often the spell to choose, if you have some spell slots available, at least one should hold a damage dealing spell. recently i played with a wizard (3rd level) who thought a wand of magic missile (1st level) was all he needed for offensive, we were literally torn apart by some big evil foes . . . . . . (a sub-optimal party anyway). each round he announced some 3 points of damage . . . . the foes had around 50, each, and there were two of them at APL 4, oh, and they were large and were written to grapple . . . . and he wasn't even smart enough to concentrate on one of them, at best the one damaged by the fighter type.:confused: afterwards i asked him, and no he hadn't "magic missile" in his book, "you know, i have this wonderful wand", :rolleyes: i will avoid this wizard in the future. ciao martin m.
DuctShuiTengu 01-14-07, 11:49 AM	Basically, I have two questions: 1. Is this doomsaying correct and are Fighter-types horribly outclassed as the APL rises? I know that Fighter-types only gain so much by leveling as opposed to, say, casters, but I didn't think they were 'worthless' as he put it, or at least as soon as he claims (He plainly stated his only role at 7th level is to hold back enemies so the mage can kill them all single-handedly). I think you've got this one right. While Fighter Types lose ground compared to spellcasters the more the level goes up, they never become completely useless (unless the person who plays them doesn't know what they're doing.) 2. Am I wrong for playing a utility/battlefield control mage instead of a blaster type in LG? I don't wish to play a blaster mage as it basically flys in the face of everything I know, but at the same time I don't wish to be compared to a basketweaver extraordinaire. Not at all. In general, direct damage is the weakest form of magic. There's probably a few spells that break this trend, and there's definitely some situations where direct damage is preferable, but most of the time, there are better alternatives. With that being said, if you're only doing battlefield control with your Wizard, you should probably branch out some. Due to the nature of living campaigns, especially at cons and gamedays, you're probably going to end up at a lot of tables that aren't too well balanced. As a primary spellcaster, you're likely to have an easier time covering holes in the group than many types of characters would.
Redfist 01-14-07, 11:56 AM	Any "one trick pony" will find a situation where their trick doesn't work. Battlefield control is great - and continues to be great into later levels. It does get more tricky when your opponents can fly and teleport at will, but those are just other obstacles to plan for (anticipiate teleportation, for example). Fighters do *not* suck at/after APL 8. Whoever told you that hasn't seen good fighter builds. I have a 15th level fighter type (fighter/monk/exotic weapons master/dwarven defender) that is a central part of any combat he enters. He doesn't run out of spells and deals plenty of damage. He is by no means outclassed by spellcasters. Your basic question is: should I do only battlefield control? My suggestion would be no. You can focus on that, but sprinkle in some damage and some buffing. Magic Missle / Orb of Force can be great against incorporeals, Mass Fly / Mass Darkvision can be key in certain situations, etc. I wouldn't give up on battlefield control, but I wouldn't be blinded by just that role. --Redfist
Akhamshyy 01-14-07, 11:57 AM	One of the players I regularly game with has a mage who rarely casts spells that damage HP. He casts spells that neuter the enemy, and let the fighters get in and dish it out. He also casts all those spells that players expect otherwise (CoP E, Haste, ect). But I laugh when I hear someone ask him to cast a damaging spell, then see their reaction when he literally turn off all the BBEGs magic that round, and then halve it's strength, or if a mage it's intelligence and wisdom the next round. And to those poeple who underestimate fighters, mine has ended a combat in the surprise round at APL 12.(Go Keobred PCs!) If you want to control the battlefield go all in, have fun. Don't let someone elses prejudical feelings or maybe lack of imagination hold you back. I've seen magical damage nullified all too many times to depend on it. Magic is so much more than that.
pimeister 01-14-07, 12:30 PM	Battlefield control wizards are some of the scariest mages I have seen at higher level. Being a warmage, I can say that direct damage spell effectiveness starts dropping off the higher level you go because of archer or melee damage monkeys coming into the supreme power of their builds. However, direct damage does have its moments, and can pul the group out of a desperate situation with an unresistable XX amount of damage. As for fighters, at higher level I either see ones geared for damage, who are ridiculous, or their own battlefield control i.e. reach trip /disarm /grapple /whatever. So in end comment, I think utility wizards <of which I include battlefield control> are more effective as the level rises, to counter nasty NPC things.
JohnduBois 01-14-07, 12:43 PM	I believe this general forum is the best place for this (if it even belongs here at all). Sorry for the very verbose nature of my posts. I have recently begun playing in Living Greyhawk, and I began by playing the Wizard I wanted to for years: a Battlefield Control Mage. You see, I have yet to cast any damage spell whatsoever. In the earlier levels, sleep and color spray easily justified this decision, but now that I am third level, people seem to be more questioning on why I'm not launching magic missiles. I ended my last session and I was excited about being close to a level, and off-handed stated that I wouldn't get too much, as I wouldn't get a new spell level. DM says, "Well, at least you have the most important thing: 1 level closer to fireball". We talked a short bit after that, with my basic stance being I could do more by aiding the fighters and others than simply blasting with spells. He says that's all well and good, but at APL 6, fighters are very weak, and by APL 8 they are worthless. He basically said if I wanted to play a successful wizard in LG, as soon as APL 6 I had to do exactly what his wizard does and blast like there is no tomorrow. Personally, I think that the advice he gave me is a little skewed, as I have seen some very poor tanks in the area, and he might just be speaking from similar experiences brought on by a poorly made tank. Basically, I have two questions: 1. Is this doomsaying correct and are Fighter-types horribly outclassed as the APL rises? I know that Fighter-types only gain so much by leveling as opposed to, say, casters, but I didn't think they were 'worthless' as he put it, or at least as soon as he claims (He plainly stated his only role at 7th level is to hold back enemies so the mage can kill them all single-handedly). 2. Am I wrong for playing a utility/battlefield control mage instead of a blaster type in LG? I don't wish to play a blaster mage as it basically flys in the face of everything I know, but at the same time I don't wish to be compared to a basketweaver extraordinaire. Battlefield control (or other dude control) is an excellent path for a wizard. My illusionist doesn't even have access to Transmutation or Conjuration, and remains effective in combat. Consider the following spells (and these are just the ones in my spellbook): Color Spray (1st): Still effective at higher levels - the BBEG still drops his uber-weapon if he fails his save, and picking it back up will provoke from your buddies. Combine with Sculpt Spell for extra goodness. Dispel Magic (3rd): Good all-purpose neutering spell. Grease (1st): Gotten much better with new FAQ rulings. Phantasmal Assailants (2nd, SpC 154-5): The poor man's Phantasmal Killer, and equally effective against some min-maxed or clunky opponents. I've used it to take earth elementals out of fights entirely. Also cripples clerics. Shadow Binding (3rd, SpC 182): Simply stops anything from getting closer to you (or running away). Even effective against flying opponents (although not so much against teleporters). Silent Image and related spells (1st and up): If your enemy doesn't have a good Will save, it's just as good as Wall of Stone, and at a much lower spell slot. Unluck (3rd, SpC 227-228): Cripples most things that don't have stuff maxed out (including saves). Absolutely brutal when combined with Phantasmal Assailants.
trollbill 01-14-07, 01:11 PM	Herre is my 7th-level Sorcerer's spells list. 0-Level Spells Detect Magic Detect Poison Mage Hand Prestidigitation Ray of Frost Read Magic Touch of Fatigue 1st-Level Spells Disguise Self Feather Fall Grease Mage Armor Magic Missile 2nd-Level Spells Alter Self False Life Glitterdust 3rd-Level Spells Fly Haste His direct damage spells are Ray of Frost and Magic Missile. That's it, though I will admit I have the Draconic Breath feat that lets me convert spell energy into a breath weapon. So I do have an area of effect damage ability. But the entire rest of my list is battlefield control, utility and buff spells. And absolutely no one complains that I'm not fireballing everything in sight. When run properly, Battlefield control casters are the most powerful out there and have one really big advantage over other types in that they are still effective even when playing up 3 or 4 APLs above their level. Direct damage wizards suffer greatly from having to play up like this. That said, running a Battlefield Control caster is also one of the hardest to do properly. Direct damage is easy. So which is better can depend on the skill of the player. I don't know your skill level.
Vanadium 01-14-07, 02:07 PM	That said, running a Battlefield Control caster is also one of the hardest to do properly. Direct damage is easy. So which is better can depend on the skill of the player. I don't know your skill level. I personally don't know my own skill level, but if knowledge in some way equates power for the wizard, I think I'm okay. When I first came to the boards some three years ago, some of the first things I poured over were posts and guides on the Character Optimization Boards, especially those about arcanists. So, I think I have the right knowledge to know what to use and a sufficient imagination to stretch the spells for all they're worth. The only problem I think I've been running to is that as a Buffer/Utility/Battlefield Control Mage I have one underlying job: I better the odds for my allies. However, for this to be effective, I need to have good allies to capitalize on my manipulations. It seems as if the word 'Tank' in this area means a dwarf in full plate with good AC, good Hit points, and no damage potential. I've only heard about tactical fighters, and I've seen some downright ugly things being done. Nobody seems to have special weapons (like Cold Iron) or valuable one-shot items, as it is suggested you have in this very forum. Basically, if the tanks are poorly built (and any time on the forums will show you that it is easy to build a poor tank) am I weakened as well? Also, Grease (1st): Gotten much better with new FAQ rulings. If you don't mind my asking, which FAQ ruling is this?
Lomiat 01-14-07, 02:48 PM	Basically, if the tanks are poorly built (and any time on the forums will show you that it is easy to build a poor tank) am I weakened as well? Yes. However, you can help them out and, in turn, help yourself. Have your character offer tactical advice in combat. Give the fighters the buffs they need to be effective. Ask them about their tactics before you select your spells for the day. It is my experience that while blaster mages may make solid contributions, they simply can't do enough damage to get a party through the 3 encounters they're like to face in an LG mod. Even if they have sufficient spellpower, they don't have sufficient time: in the number of rounds it would take for a blaster mage to drop all his/her foes, either the mage's allies have provided a solid contribution and dropped the baddies (and this works better if the mage focuses on aiding the party's damage potential), or the baddies drop one or two PCs (and the mage can prep spells to prevent this). This changes a bit if the PC gains access to such things as Sudden Maximize or takes Born of the Three Thunders--both of which drastically enhance the effects of a boom spell--but, in general, it's the wizard's job to adapt to the party and enhance their strengths while keeping an eye to preventing bad stuff from happening due to the party's weaknesses. Eventually, though, SOMEONE has to damage the bad guys, and if the tanks can't do it, and no one else is stepping up to the role, it's good for the wizard to have the capacity to do direct damage (even if it isn't the best general focus).
Akhamshyy 01-14-07, 02:52 PM	Posted by Vanadium; Basically, if the tanks are poorly built (and any time on the forums will show you that it is easy to build a poor tank) am I weakened as well? This is a team game. If they cannot fullfill thier roll in the group they are dead weight. So, yes if they are poorly built they weaken you accordingly. This is true of good combat specialists mixed with bad arcanists or skill monkeys as well. That said some regions lean more towards one end or another, and there is very rarely found that "golden" table.
DarkKnight 01-14-07, 03:15 PM	While my wizard is a little more of the boom type wizard there are at least 2 other wizards in our area who do nothing but battlefield control and who rarely cast direct damage spells. I also play a cleric though who doesn't have Divine Spell Power and probably never will (even if it stays a legal choice) just to be different from all of the other clerics and I've never heard a complaint about him. As it was said before though, the improtant thing is to play a character that you enjoy playing, not a character someone else enjoys playing.
Mommy was an Orc 01-14-07, 03:39 PM	He basically said if I wanted to play a successful wizard in LG, as soon as APL 6 I had to do exactly what his wizard does and blast like there is no tomorrow. 2. Am I wrong for playing a utility/battlefield control mage instead of a blaster type in LG? I don't wish to play a blaster mage as it basically flys in the face of everything I know, but at the same time I don't wish to be compared to a basketweaver extraordinaire. Fighters at APL 6-8 aren't weak when the Wizard of the party makes sure to haste them. That usually doubles their damage output, gives them tactical movement, and even boosts their AC. Plus, it makes it a lot easier for you to get out of the way. When you Haste them, you might not be the person actually dealing the killing blow, but you're responsible for it. You'll do a lot more damage via casting Haste than you will via Fireball. That's the difficulty in playing a utility/battlefield control specialist - you take actions in the best interest of the party rather than your own glory. And some people don't understand that. And because the designers recognized that there is a large group that doesn't get it, they've tended to overpower the battlefield/utility spells compared to the direct damage spells. Take a look at Fireball - if people generally fail saves against your spells, why not take them out of the combat entirely. Stinking Cloud as an example. Slow is useful for that too, especially where you simply can't throw a fireball without hitting your own guys. Or Glitterdust? Even if you're in an area with poorly built tanks, Polymorph them into something effective. One of the things I've found effective is banning Evocation as a school choice. Yes, this does mean I lose Wall of Force and Tenser's Disk and a few other very useful spells. But it also short-circuits those arguments - yes, had you been there when I was making up my character, it might have worked, but oh well. I usually then note how many PCs have died when my Wizard was around.
rockondon 01-14-07, 03:41 PM	fireball is a really nice battlefield control spell ;) So long as your character is effective at something I'd say go with it. Wizards really start to shine more and more as they rise in levels and get higher level spells. The tanks role in lower levels are often that of doing most of the damage, but as the APL rises and wizards are in the party, the tanks have the increasingly important role of protecting the spellcasters so they can do their thing. So whatever your 'thing' is, try to do it well. There are a lot of monsters out there that a lot of tanks don't want to hit or get close to. I'd recommend you have some kind of option for dealing with those.
JohnduBois 01-14-07, 03:50 PM	If you don't mind my asking, which FAQ ruling is this? Well, pretty much all of them, but I think the biggest one is that while you're standing in Grease, you're considered flat-footed.
clannagh 01-14-07, 07:33 PM	The regular advice to new casters in these parts is do not get too obsessed with fireball and scorching ray .. especially early on. Blindness, colored spray are amongst the best low level spells around. No need to talk about the uses of Dimension Door, Blink, Fly and teleport. Non damage party saving spell examples from recent games locally include a charging cavallier who suddenly couldnt power attack because a ray of of enfeeblement meant his strength is now 12 and in another mod a deep slumbered bullete snoring happily waiting to be CdGed. A few of these incidents and you soon realise all thsoe "other" spells actually are pretty damn good.
bhale187 01-14-07, 08:47 PM	I always play arcane casters as "buffers". I chose my known spells starting with the ones that will most aid the frontline melees, then ones to hamper the enemies attacks, and finally ones to allow me to cut and run if necessary. IMO, it is ridiculous to say fighters are weak at 6 and worthless at 8. At those levels a poorly planned novice built fighter will slack off for sure, but even then a few good buffing spells will go along way. At the begining of a session you may catch greif about having few or no offensive spells, but trust me, your fellow companions will not complain when you buff them with Haste, Greater Magic Weapon, Bull's Str, Bear's Endurance, Heroism, keen edge, etc, etc.
TWG_Prometheus 01-14-07, 10:27 PM	As some others have pointed out, even if a bit indirectly, fighters are still very much effective at higher APLs, but part of that package deal is that they start to rely more on their spellcasters to support them. Generally, only the top-end builds will continue to play at maximum effectiveness without support. If a Wizard has a poor opinion of his allies, maybe it's because he's not doing anything to assist them? It really doesn't take very much to turn a mediocre fighter into a killing machine. (See bardsong for proof if needed) Wizards at higher levels have more spells than they'll need for anything but the most extended combats. If they're not using those spells for the benefit of their team, what are they doing?
Genghis Cohen 01-14-07, 10:32 PM	The only problem I think I've been running to is that as a Buffer/Utility/Battlefield Control Mage I have one underlying job: I better the odds for my allies...There is nothing more powerful in D&D tactics (or real life military tactics) than battlefield control. Nothing even comes close. You have Grease at 1st level (not so hot,) Glitterdust (freaking amazing) or Web at 2nd level, Evard's Nastiness at 4th, Wall of Force at 5th, etc. I have a 6th level Gray Elven wizard, and I use him for battlefield control. I think of him as a general, and the other party members as his soldiers. I explain to my party members that we should "divide and conquer," and request that they leave me enough space to drop a template on the battle mat. Haste might not directly be a battlefield control spell, but it will enable your combatants to help control the terrain. As was pointed out, it also increases damage output. If you're playing without any effectively built combatants, then Fireball will do more damage than haste. If you are playing with reasonably built (doesn't have to be min/maxed) front liners, Haste will enable far greater damage output than a fireball. There is a fundamental problem with launching a fireball in the first round; you become a target. For a 5th/6th level mage, I recomend hasting, glitterdusting, or even casting Web first (you'll have to use your judgement based on the situation.) The second round usually should include one of the other spells. Fireball can drop down in the third, fourth or fifth round, or not at all. Its really not that important. Once you've divided the battlefield and conquered one half, your party can easily conquer the rest. Remember that while a general (or admiral) doesn't get the glory of battlefield heroics, they do get forts and ships named after them.
Mortepierre 01-15-07, 04:26 AM	Another thing to remember is to be smart when you target enemies. Do not try to affect Fighter-type NPC with spells allowing Fort. save! (and so on..), except if it's a life-or-death situation of course. As JohnduBois stated, few spellcasters remember (check the D&D FAQ) that Grease means your opponent is now sneakable. I routinely use it after hastening our rogue-archer. Finally, buff always win vs. debuff. In other words, your friends aren't going to resist a spell designed to enhance their capabilities. Enemies WILL resist spells designed to reduce theirs. So, it's always better to give something to your friends than try to deny it to your opponents.
UMiskatonic 01-15-07, 10:15 AM	Battlefield control is fantastic. You'll win fights with single spells, occassionally. There are some people who don't understand this, and who think that more damage = more ubar. They are wrong, and you shouldn't be worried about it. Remember, In D&D, a troll with 4 hp is every bit as dangerous to you as a troll with 80 hp. Same chance to hit you, same chance to rend. Direct damage is not that helpful.
Sieylianna 01-15-07, 12:09 PM	Battlefield control is fantastic. You'll win fights with single spells, occassionally. There are some people who don't understand this, and who think that more damage = more ubar. They are wrong, and you shouldn't be worried about it. You'll also win fights with single direct damage spells. Damaging spells are just as essential as battlefield control, it's a matter of having the right spell selection. Incorporeals are very difficult for a wizard to handle without magic missile and/or orb of force. Ed
Mommy was an Orc 01-15-07, 12:30 PM	You'll also win fights with single direct damage spells. Damaging spells are just as essential as battlefield control, it's a matter of having the right spell selection. Incorporeals are very difficult for a wizard to handle without magic missile and/or orb of force. Ed Or Transdimensional Spell...a Transdimensional Web spell can pin those Incorporeals down. Unless they're a very odd incorporeal, they fail their save, they're stuck there until you have time to kill them. Can't make strength checks and they need at least a +5 Escape Artist to get out. And how many Incorporeals have +5 in Escape Artist?
DuctShuiTengu 01-15-07, 12:39 PM	Remember, In D&D, a troll with 4 hp is every bit as dangerous to you as a troll with 80 hp. Same chance to hit you, same chance to rend. Direct damage is not that helpful. Depends on the situation. If the troll is up next, then yes, having it entangled or held or otherwise not able to go beat on the rest of the party is better. If the party archer is up next, the troll who's been reduced to 4 hp isn't going to be getting a chance to attack anyone, but the one who's held/entangled/otherwise-temporarily-disabled may get to do so next turn. Don't get me wrong, in general, I agree that battlefield control is one of the strongest types of magic. However, there are times when this isn't the case. The key to making a good wizard, IMHO, is versatility. Some tables, you're going to need to be able to kill enemies because no-one else can. Some tables, you need to be able to keep the enemies off your party because you don't have a tank. Some tables, you need to be able to deal with traps because there's no rogue. While Battlefield Control is a good area to focus on, you want to be able to cover any of these contingencies, because the non-casters don't have the option of choosing to memorize different feats and class abilities in the morning.
jhorred 01-15-07, 01:20 PM	You'll also win fights with single direct damage spells. Damaging spells are just as essential as battlefield control, it's a matter of having the right spell selection. Incorporeals are very difficult for a wizard to handle without magic missile and/or orb of force. Ed Yep, I've done this with a well placed fireball....
Randall Montgomery 01-15-07, 01:45 PM	I would classify my own Wizard as a blaster-generalist. Depending on the opponents, I'll usually start a battle by dropping a heavy-damage area spell (since I've got a high init, a lot of enemies are still flat-footed when I do this, meaning they're less likely to save), and then follow up with buffs/control/direct damage as needed. I've never worried about being singled out as a target, since I'm usually at the top of the hit list regardless (I've survived three death attacks, three disintigrate spells, two fingers of death, and I don't remember what all). I've ended quite a few fights before they began, and I've had other fights where direct damage was worthless. As others have said, versatility is key for spellcasters. As an FYI, when you get 5th level spells, Telekinesis is awsome for control (being able to grapple/trip/disarm from distance with checks equal to most fighters is great). :D
Vanadium 01-15-07, 01:57 PM	I would classify my own Wizard as a blaster-generalist. Depending on the opponents, I'll usually start a battle by dropping a heavy-damage area spell (since I've got a high init, a lot of enemies are still flat-footed when I do this, meaning they're less likely to save), I am fairly certain that there is no connection between flat-footedness and saves. The only advantage of the enemy being flatfooted with area of effect spells is that they are probably still clustered together so you have a greater impact.
jstorrie 01-15-07, 03:54 PM	If you were playing a sorceror, I would definitely suggest battlefield control as a great choice - but wizards don't need to restrict themselves to one 'portfolio.' Generally speaking, in most encounters where control isn't the best option, buffing or debuffing is, and your 2-3 direct damage spells are the fallback if those aren't. Play generalist if you're a wizard: versatility is efficient. Play specialist if you're a sorceror, because you don't have the spells known to do otherwise.
Vanadium 01-15-07, 05:55 PM	If you were playing a sorceror, I would definitely suggest battlefield control as a great choice - but wizards don't need to restrict themselves to one 'portfolio.' Generally speaking, in most encounters where control isn't the best option, buffing or debuffing is, and your 2-3 direct damage spells are the fallback if those aren't. Play generalist if you're a wizard: versatility is efficient. Play specialist if you're a sorceror, because you don't have the spells known to do otherwise. Well, I guess I am sort of minimalizing myself, but this also seems to be due to the limited numbers of spells I can cast per day and the limited numbers of spells I actually have at this point. I've been saving up money from some unknown reason and I guess I could have been recording new spells into my spellbook. As it stands, I have a bunch of utility scrolls that I've crafted up until now along with only 20 or so spells. In the last few mods I've basically memorized nothing more than a couple of greases and glitterdusts. I have web and I really wish to use it, but for all the value I can see in using it, I think it would end poorly as another such instance did. If I can deviate, I was in a mod where we were underpowered and there were two large things with reach tripping our hapless tanks. I cast an Obscuring Mist so that all the threatened tripped people could stand without being hit by the fairly damaging monsters (also to take care of a very large group of goblins that were sniping us from afar) and I heard very vocal complaints about the 20% miss chance I 'needlessly imposed' on the party. Then again, that mod was bad to run through. We had a full party of level 2's, maybe a three, along with a very weak level 5 tank that brought us up to APL 4. I thought I did a good thing, considering that in the fog we outnumbered the nasties and were able to deal with the goblins on our own terms. Then again, I fear that with many of better battlefield control being rather non-selective, I might hear more complaints in the future when I throw down an EBT, Web or Solid Fog.
clannagh 01-15-07, 06:05 PM	Well, I guess I am sort of minimalizing myself, but this also seems to be due to the limited numbers of spells I can cast per day and the limited numbers of spells I actually have at this point. I've been saving up money from some unknown reason and I guess I could have been recording new spells into my spellbook. As it stands, I have a bunch of utility scrolls that I've crafted up until now along with only 20 or so spells. In the last few mods I've basically memorized nothing more than a couple of greases and glitterdusts. I have web and I really wish to use it, but for all the value I can see in using it, I think it would end poorly as another such instance did. If I can deviate, I was in a mod where we were underpowered and there were two large things with reach tripping our hapless tanks. I cast an Obscuring Mist so that all the threatened tripped people could stand without being hit by the fairly damaging monsters (also to take care of a very large group of goblins that were sniping us from afar) and I heard very vocal complaints about the 20% miss chance I 'needlessly imposed' on the party. Then again, that mod was bad to run through. We had a full party of level 2's, maybe a three, along with a very weak level 5 tank that brought us up to APL 4. I thought I did a good thing, considering that in the fog we outnumbered the nasties and were able to deal with the goblins on our own terms. Then again, I fear that with many of better battlefield control being rather non-selective, I might hear more complaints in the future when I throw down an EBT, Web or Solid Fog. solution is easy you can speak as a free action any time in the round call out to the tanks " i am casting XXX which will help you but ZZZ do you want it cast?"
Mortepierre 01-15-07, 06:11 PM	.. and I heard very vocal complaints about the 20% miss chance I 'needlessly imposed' on the party. If they could complain, then they weren't dead thanks to you. After the fight has ended, remind them of the fact ;)
Sieylianna 01-15-07, 06:57 PM	Or Transdimensional Spell...a Transdimensional Web spell can pin those Incorporeals down. Unless they're a very odd incorporeal, they fail their save, they're stuck there until you have time to kill them. Can't make strength checks and they need at least a +5 Escape Artist to get out. And how many Incorporeals have +5 in Escape Artist? I've seen the Transdimensional spell feat used once in Living Greyhawk and that was an NPC bad guy. Ed
Genghis Cohen 01-15-07, 07:23 PM	I've seen the Transdimensional spell feat used once in Living Greyhawk and that was an NPC bad guy. EdI've seen it used a lot by a friend's Druid. Transdimensional Barkskin (which is a great idea because there are far more great 2nd level spells than 3rd level spells for Druids, so you free up a valuable second level slot and potentially gain more protection) and Transdimensional Wall of Thorns are his two favorites.
Munkwunk 01-15-07, 08:14 PM	My wife plays a grey elf battlefield control wizard, and let me tell you how non-worthless that character is. Up until recently, she didn't even have fireball in her spellbook, and only scribed it because her goal is to have every core spell she can get her hands on. There have been a few occasions where it would have been really helpful to have that AOE damage, especially when noone else in the party was capable of dropping damage on an area. It's especially handy when you're fighting large groups of mooks who tend to drop easily to a fireball but otherwise take a lot of time to kill when damaging one at a time. Still, despite not having the fireball, we've managed to come away from every module we've ever played without either of our characters (her wizard and my cleric/tank) getting killed, and we're up to 10th level. I fully believe that it's because of BC that we've survived so well. Fireballs and other kinds of blasty spells are nice at quickly dropping enemies, if they're successful, but like someone already said: a troll with 4 hp can deal as much damage as a troll with 80 hp. On the other hand, a troll with 10 Strength or the inability to move poses little threat to the party. It is worth it to have AOE/blaster spells in your spellbook for times when you're the only option the party has, or at least the best option. Against incorporeals, your magic missles and orbs of force are some of the best ways to take down those level-draining critters, and you want to deal with them as quickly as possible. A lot can be learned from teh stat drains that a lot of incorporeals use, though; when they smake your fighters with Strength damage, your fighters have a harder time hitting back. The same applies when fighting enemy tanks; a well-placed Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement means Mr. Fighter will be wiffing and certainly not power attack any time soon. Enfeeblement + Ray of Exhaustion might mean you drain his Strength entirely and take him completely out of the combat. IMO, battlefield control is the *best* type of caster you can be, and I roll my eyes every time I sit down at a table with someone who brags about their penchant for fireballing things. Let the fighter-types do their job dealing damage while you ensure none of your allies get hurt by using a well-placed Solid Fog and seperating the eneny forces (or disrupting their tactics).
Arinaad 01-15-07, 10:38 PM	I love my Mystic Theurge... when I find a table has plenty of Tanks and other front liners I usually kick my battlefield control in and start laying down the webs, obscuring mists, evards (which is a nice way to slow down or even eliminate mooks) etc. Keeping the minions of the BBEG's support down at the other end of the battlefield, or the cavalier type unable to charge you is always a bonus. I keep a handfull of scrolls for the occasion that I need a little blasting power, usually to deal with crap like swarms. But most of the time controlling the enemy and their movement is the cornerstone of winning battles. General Patton succeeded in WW2 by doing just that. Ensuring that the enemy was never in charge of the battlefield. In his Sicily campaign he drove around the enemy encampments to cut off their retreats... in his Europe campaigns he always kept the enemy running... works every time. This is one of the reasons that the Iraq situation is not going so well for the US troops... the resistance controlls the battlefield. They are controlling it by using civilian populations as we use the spells for battlefield control... But that is just a rant... sorry for the interuption, I shall now return you to your regularaly scheduled D&D talk. Arinaad
LGMoses 01-16-07, 12:20 AM	i see a lot of grey elf wizards (for obvious reasons) but what regions have major populations of grey elf wizards i wonder...?
Madfox11 01-16-07, 04:45 AM	The only time when you REALLY miss those area damaging spells is when you are facing swarms...
gomeztoo 01-16-07, 04:59 AM	i see a lot of grey elf wizards (for obvious reasons) but what regions have major populations of grey elf wizards i wonder...? The ones I know: Sunndi (Rieuwood), Verbobonc/Dyvers (Gnarley forest), and iirc Highfolk (Vesve). Gomez
Sieylianna 01-16-07, 07:57 AM	Still, despite not having the fireball, we've managed to come away from every module we've ever played without either of our characters (her wizard and my cleric/tank) getting killed, and we're up to 10th level. I fully believe that it's because of BC that we've survived so well. My grey elf wizard made 18th level blowing stuff up. It's not the spells you select, it's what you do with them. Ed
LGMoses 01-16-07, 01:02 PM	i generally see elves as more the enchantment type of wizards. Gnomes are illusionists duh, ummmm dwarves? they enchant their armor/weapons somehow, half orcs lol, halflings *snicker*, half-elves (see elves), and humans lite **** on fire, blow **** up, and conjure outsiders of all alignments to make themselves more powerful. :mage: BTW, someone needs to hunt down Mordenkainen. Where is he rite now? Say bye bye force for neutrality and hello good guys. WEEEEEEEEEEEEEE:ayyyy!:
Japangirl 01-16-07, 01:28 PM	My grey elf wizard is an Abjurer, which I think fits nicely with elves. Of course, she's also going Initiate, so it makes sense for the build as well, but I didn't have to specialize.
LGMoses 01-16-07, 02:05 PM	abjuration sounds like an excercise. Still an awesome school of magic though
Japangirl 01-16-07, 02:09 PM	Yummy dismissals with Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus :).
Bob_the_Theurge 01-16-07, 02:25 PM	Disclaimer: I'm a Theurge, not a straight caster, so some things are a little different, but I'd like to offer the following perspective: You're not being yelled at for being a "battlefield control" Wizard. You're being yelled at for not having the slightest smidgen of versatility. First of all, there's one thing you have right. Wizards can indeed do much more than blasting. Despite the claims of some wizarding types, the amount of damage that can be done by a single fighter build to another enemy in a D&D 3.5 combat far eclipses what can be done by a single spell-flinging wizard at levels 8+. This is because most of those fighter builds can exceed 40 damage per swing. Now, here's the catch; as a battlefield control wizard, your goals are threefold: 1. Provide the fighter better opportunities to hit. Haste is good (extra shot), Grease or other spells to lower enemy defense are also good, as are spells to buff the fighter to increase his hit chances. 2. Minimize the number of times the fighter (or you) gets hit. Damage prevented is as good as damage healed, after all; slightly better, in fact, since extra effects like poison or drain don't come into play. 3. Potentially keep other enemies out of play so that the fighters can focus on one and bring it down faster. Now here's the catch: those aren't <b>all you can do</b> either. I'll give you an example, speaking from my role as a Theurge. I have access to a couple limited spells, only one of which I actually use. I sacrificed two spell levels to get where I am; at 14th level, I've only got 5th level spells (sorceror/cleric theurge). As a sorceror, I've had to pick my spells even more carefully. But here's a good guide to what you are looking at: again, VERSATILITY is the name of the game. On the Cleric side, at 1st level, Remove Fear is good, Comprehend Languages is good, Protection from Evil is good. At 2nd level, I have Align weapon, I have Aid, Bull's Strength/Bear's Endurance, Resist Energy, Lesser Restoration as options. At 3rd level, I keep at least two Dispel Magics (and I strongly suggest you learn this too), Prayer, Magic Circle vs Evil, Stone Shape, possibly Searing Light if undead are around, and other things like Water Walk if needed can be memorized. 4th level, there's Restoration, Death Ward, Delay Death, Greater Magic Weapon, Freedom of Movement (does wonders against those nasty grapple monsters), Spell Immunity. At 5th level there's Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Plane Shift, Flame Strike. Note: I've only mentioned two damage spells so far, and one of those is a situation-only spell. On the Sorceror side, it's a bit simpler, but still viable. First level I have Ray of Enfeeblement (which freakin' rocks to hit a big bad enemy with at start of combat), Magic Missile, Grease, and a couple other minor options. 2nd level? Glitterdust, Web, Blur, Sonic Weapon, False Life (for myself). 3rd level? Fireball, sure, as well as Fly, Haste, and the (limited spell) Battlemagic Perception. 4th? Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility, Evan's Spiked Tentacles of F... er, Evard's I mean. At 5th level, Wall of Force and Greater Blink. Note what I have there. Of all my spells that I routinely use or have memorized (as a Cleric), only four of the lot are really damage spells. The rest are all either buffs for the party(Haste/Righteous Wrath), buffs to be given to other party members (Blur/Sonic Weapon/etc), buffs for myself (false life/GreaterBlink), or battlefield control (web/grease/glitterdust/wall of force/evard's). I can also heal if it comes down to it. Now, do I do every one of these things every combat? Of course not. But I have the option to do so, and I pick from what ought to work for the system. I think that may be what your compatriots are complaining about. Not that every mage should be a boom-mage, but every mage should have a little bit of damage dealing ability handy. Every combat is different, after all. The other thing you need to consider is that you're not going to use every spell, every combat. If you have the time to do that, then your combats are lasting WAY too long. So yes, I suggest you seriously consider learning and memorizing at least one Magic Missile and one Fireball per day. They might shorten the combat by a round or two and save you some spells for later. So you're not a boom mage? So what - when the enemies are sitting in the middle of your Evard's, the fighters aren't going anywhere near them, so you might as well follow up with a fireball on their collective grappled behinds.
LGMoses 01-16-07, 02:28 PM	Who is/was Evard? I'm pretty sure he's not a Circle Member.
Vanadium 01-16-07, 03:09 PM	Disclaimer: I'm a Theurge, not a straight caster, so some things are a little different, but I'd like to offer the following perspective: Stuff I appreciate your comments, but I can't help but feel a little slighted by the lack of versatility comment, especially considering that I made the character so that he could be nice and versatile. Then again, if the concern is out there I'd like to hear about why it is so. I want the mage to have answers for whatever mess he lands in, and I'm trying to learn how best to do this. I don't really think that I am lacking versatility by not taking damaging spells, especially considering that the only real damage spells I have access to are single target now (except things like burning hands), and I really didn't think that having a fighter's damage output for a single round was worth a slot. The only problem I'm finding with this is the fact that I am still low leveled with only a fair number of slots I can use per day. Due to the effects of some (such as Glitterdust, which despite me having it in a scant two mods has more than paid for itself) being so much greater than others, I guess I've been memorizing very little and relying on scrolls for answers and alchemical weapons if I needed damage. The thing actually seems to be that my party complains (of which there are experienced players) is that I am using scrolls and other consumable items. I get the feeling that they think using scrolls is a waste of money, but I know this isn't true as I've heard about people crafting scrolls of fireball and lightning bolt of all things. I don't really think that having an option is a bad thing, and with my stash of scrolls, I do have options. But, I can see where you are coming from. I do realize that an odd damage spell here or there helps when the situations are odd, but at the same time I've never been in one of those situations. The best case I can see for the random damage is when I run into an army of mooks and I just need to clear some room. Then again, these things are harder to come by at my level and access. Who is/was Evard? I'm pretty sure he's not a Circle Member. Wikipedia says Evard is an archmage who is also Mordenkainen's enemy. He seems to have a bent for making spells that wriggle around, too.
_m_ 01-16-07, 07:09 PM	Who is/was Evard? I'm pretty sure he's not a Circle Member. neither is tenser any more, they were too neutral for him.
Bob_the_Theurge 01-16-07, 07:19 PM	I appreciate your comments, but I can't help but feel a little slighted by the lack of versatility comment, especially considering that I made the character so that he could be nice and versatile. But you're less versatile than you could be, and you're making yourself that way. I don't really think that I am lacking versatility by not taking damaging spells, especially considering that the only real damage spells I have access to are single target now (except things like burning hands), and I really didn't think that having a fighter's damage output for a single round was worth a slot. A fighter's damage output for one round can mean one less round that a big enemy is left standing. That's one less round that the rest of the party is fighting, one less round of healing that the Cleric has to catch up with, etc... The only problem I'm finding with this is the fact that I am still low leveled with only a fair number of slots I can use per day. Due to the effects of some (such as Glitterdust, which despite me having it in a scant two mods has more than paid for itself) being so much greater than others, I guess I've been memorizing very little and relying on scrolls for answers and alchemical weapons if I needed damage. And later on, you'll find that Pearls of Power will be happy too. But as a Wizard, you can make scrolls right now of a heck of a lot of spells, and keep them on hand. Those spells that don't have a major downside or lose too much duration (a 1 minute per level spell, scrolled of a 2nd level spell, is a 3 min duration and that's all you'll need for most combats), should definitely be scrolled rather than memorized if you can manage. The thing actually seems to be that my party complains (of which there are experienced players) is that I am using scrolls and other consumable items. I get the feeling that they think using scrolls is a waste of money, but I know this isn't true as I've heard about people crafting scrolls of fireball and lightning bolt of all things. I don't really think that having an option is a bad thing, and with my stash of scrolls, I do have options. Scrolls of damage spells are horrid things, because their damage doesn't keep up. That's the problem there. A Fireball scroll is 5d6, but you get an extra 3d6 memorizing it yourself at level 8, which is not an insubstantial amount of damage. Use scrolls on things where caster level won't matter, and memorize things where caster level or saving throw DOES matter. But, I can see where you are coming from. I do realize that an odd damage spell here or there helps when the situations are odd, but at the same time I've never been in one of those situations. You will be. You will most definitely be. Probably sooner than later, too. The best case I can see for the random damage is when I run into an army of mooks and I just need to clear some room. Then again, these things are harder to come by at my level and access. Not at all. I'm not saying you need damage this minute, but Magic Missile is a 1st level spell. Cheap to buy a scroll of, cheap to scribe into your spellbook. Goes through incorporeal undead, goes through anything with high armor class. Well worth knowing and keeping at least one memorized for those reasons alone. And if you don't need it? If you cast everything else by the end of the day? Great. But if you DID need it and didn't HAVE it, and the only reason is you're being too stubborn to expand your horizons a mite, then I can see why your group is complaining.
Sieylianna 01-16-07, 08:35 PM	First of all, there's one thing you have right. Wizards can indeed do much more than blasting. Despite the claims of some wizarding types, the amount of damage that can be done by a single fighter build to another enemy in a D&D 3.5 combat far eclipses what can be done by a single spell-flinging wizard at levels 8+. This is because most of those fighter builds can exceed 40 damage per swing. There's another catch. If you don't play with the same group all the time, you may very well find that there isn't a fighter worth buffing at your table. I see very few of the fighters you are talking about. Archers outnumber melee types at least three to one and many of the remainder are mutts with no clear focus. My druid is accustomed to her tiger being the party's main fighter, because it happens so frequently. Ed
Bob_the_Theurge 01-16-07, 10:06 PM	There's another catch. If you don't play with the same group all the time, you may very well find that there isn't a fighter worth buffing at your table. I see very few of the fighters you are talking about. Archers outnumber melee types at least three to one and many of the remainder are mutts with no clear focus. My druid is accustomed to her tiger being the party's main fighter, because it happens so frequently. Ed That's quite a weird region you've got there. In ours, we've got a fair share of wizardy types, a fair share of clerics of varying sort (runs the gamut between fighter/clerics to radiant servants of cheeselor and everything in between), plenty of melee'ists, but I think I can count the serious archer types on one hand. For us, it's not a question of melee types, and trust me, they are our major damage dealers, they'll outdamage a blaster-mage every single time unless there's multiple enemies to catch inside of a radius spell.
denny1824 01-16-07, 10:09 PM	I think it is intersting that the mage that doesnt bother to buff his allies is the one that thinks that fighters are to weak, and that the fighter holding back the enemies, while the mage can kill them single-handedly, does not reallize that he should be more effective. If you do crowd control and buff up your fighters, then you are going to make them look like the MVPs. Be prepared for them to think you are not pulling your own weight. You will have to be strong enough to know they are wrong. Most people can't see past the simple math of looking at who took off the most HPs. I agree with most people here that you should have some damage spells for backup. Which specific damage spells to choose is another story. I like area affect damage spells. I think that for most cases burning hands is a better spell than magic missle. Yes there are cases like incorporeals where magic missle shines, but IMO the ability to hit multiple targets makes burning hands better in the general case. Most of the times I see someone using magic missle I think it is a waste of a spell slot. I think that what really makes a wizard shine over a sorcerer is that you can have multiple premade spell selections and just change it any day you want. So if you go into a group with heavy fighter types then you will want to be able to buff them. If you go into a group with other blaster type spell casters then you might want to immobilize the enemy (or maybe be a blaster too to help finish them off). I would suggest that your selection of no damage spells be your default selection, but before your start play ask if any of the other players have a problem with that. If they do you might want to switch to a blaster type selection or some mix of the two.
DeimosGandymede 01-16-07, 11:05 PM	Most of what I would have said has been said, but just so you can compare: I have a 5th level Evoker. Yep, I blast things. Its what I do. Its what I enjoy. However, I always memorize spells like Haste, Web, etc. One haste is enough to turn the tide of a tough battle. I digress... So, our party is at this con, and its me, two buddies, and two other guys who seem to have good heads on their shoulders. A fight breaks out in a small cave, and I drop a Haste. I think nothing of it. Its what I SHOULD do, especially given the Initiative circumstances, (we essentially went first, thanks to some seriously good rolls), the size of these guys, and the small room we were in. After two rounds, it was over. We MAULED them. At the end of the game, one of the guys who I had just met, along with the DM, almost at the same time, said that my casting of Haste was the MVP move of the module. Huh?! Apparently, the NPCs we mauled hit like a ton of bricks, and the extra attacks we got off dealt enough damage that we didn't get mutilated. The result was a coasting of the encounter. In fact, a similar situation had occured earlier in the day, according to the DM, where the Wizard used a Scorching Ray that didn't kill the thing, and it ate the Bard. Ugly. So, the point of this short story that I made long is that there are people out there that realize that damage doesn't equal win. It just equals damage. -MW-
rockondon 01-17-07, 04:04 AM	There's certainly nothing wrong with battlefield control type wizards. They can be effective and they also have a smaller bullseye on their heads than blasty wizards. Buffing is great. Spells that disrupt the enemy are great. Although that obscuring mist you cast wouldn't be my first choice. I appreciate your comments, but I can't help but feel a little slighted by the lack of versatility comment, especially considering that I made the character so that he could be nice and versatile. You see, I have yet to cast any damage spell whatsoever. these two comments are a contradiction. If a battlefield control mage is what you're going for, you probably succeeded. If versatility is what you're going for, you failed. Then again, if the concern is out there I'd like to hear about why it is so. I want the mage to have answers for whatever mess he lands in, and I'm trying to learn how best to do this. include some damage spells among your repertoire. You should be able to do this and still focus on battlefield control. The thing actually seems to be that my party complains (of which there are experienced players) is that I am using scrolls and other consumable items. I get the feeling that they think using scrolls is a waste of money those consumables you're spending could be saved up for reusable items like pearls of power. Your party might be considering long term answers instead of short term gains. I do realize that an odd damage spell here or there helps when the situations are odd, but at the same time I've never been in one of those situations. The best case I can see for the random damage is when I run into an army of mooks and I just need to clear some room. you've never been in a situation where a damage spell was useful? only when situations are odd? what?
Vanadium 01-17-07, 08:47 AM	There's certainly nothing wrong with battlefield control type wizards. They can be effective and they also have a smaller bullseye on their heads than blasty wizards. Buffing is great. Spells that disrupt the enemy are great. Although that obscuring mist you cast wouldn't be my first choice. If a battlefield control mage is what you're going for, you probably succeeded. If versatility is what you're going for, you failed. include some damage spells among your repertoire. You should be able to do this and still focus on battlefield control. Yeah, I probably will start prepping something to the tune of one damage-ready spell/level now. There is a reason that I didn't specialize and ban evocation, and that largely stemmed from my lack of experience with playing a wizard. I didn't know if I would need the option down the line. It was just that I ran into the conundrum of what I should prepare and what I keep on a scroll. Many of the spells I have are good for scrolls, due to long durations, relatively fixed effects, no real dependancy on Caster level, etc. However, many spells I like to cast rely on saves, and damage spells tend to scale with levels, meaning I probably had to prepare them. I chose the debilitating ones as I could see where they would come in handy. I didn't with the damage so they fell by the wayside. those consumables you're spending could be saved up for reusable items like pearls of power. Your party might be considering long term answers instead of short term gains. I knew I was saving money for something, and wouldn't you know it? This is it. I've been waiting for my CWI so I could make something, but I didn't remember what. I should have CWI by the time I can make my first pearls. And I know there isn't this taboo all over, seeing as the same people that cautioned me about using that 25 gp scroll are the same ones that make scrolls of fireball after every mod. you've never been in a situation where a damage spell was useful? only when situations are odd? what? Er, I apologize for this. I tend to spend very, uh, stupidly. I meant when fighting unusual enemies, like swarms and incorpereals where they can be a real pain for melee types and others to deal with, then people look for answers from the wizard. And, I guess I have used direct damage, but I really don't count that instance. We had to fight some very nasty ooze that was basically in a hole that advanced the dungeon. It couldn't reach us and we didn't have a time issue to work around, so everybody just slept and prepared some damage spells. Blasted it from afar. Damage is never not useful, but at others times it seems less useful. Such as when you are fighting very small groups of enemies multiple times. I ran into this a few times, and I would grease or glitterdust the whole group. Then again, I rarely have the option of damage had I needed it. I guess that is the main thing I should amend. But, its good to see people telling you your faults. I would rather be a utility man over a battlefield controller, as I realize any one focus is weak in some areas where others are strong. The only sad thing I see is I might need to blast more than I would like to if the tanks continue to be as scarce or underpowered as I've seen.
solbergb 01-17-07, 06:13 PM	2. Am I wrong for playing a utility/battlefield control mage instead of a blaster type in LG? I don't wish to play a blaster mage as it basically flys in the face of everything I know, but at the same time I don't wish to be compared to a basketweaver extraordinaire. You are not wrong. Olivia (my TK-oriented...utility/battlefield control...sorceress has done very well). You just play differently. I never missed fireball. I even found a wand of it early in a two-round module at level 4 and only used it once. My old gnome illusionist/vulcan follower liked fireball. She called it "lighting the forge". But that's a personality thing. If it is any consolation, character optomizer types consider blaster-arcanists to be the WEAKEST style of play, with battlefield control being near the top of the heap. It depends on your party of course. But I really had no problem contributing to just about any party, playing up or playing down. I can't say that of every blaster arcanist I was teamed with, although some were very good.
Istaran 01-17-07, 07:12 PM	As Red would say: "Advice is free, and often worthless." That said, may I point out that you can scribe scrolls of higher caster level? As a level 3, you can scribe a 75 gp scroll of magic missile or three and keep them tucked away in case of emergency. When that ethereal monster shows up: blammo. 2d4+2. There's no save, so it doesn't matter that the scroll doesn't get your save DC. I don't think you necessarily need to mem damage spells if your fighting style does not normally entail them. Basically, the spells you have memmed should be ones you expect to use during the course of the day. Your scroll collection should be there to handle all of the unexpected cases. If you get attacked by an unexpected incorporeal creature you might want to have that Scroll of Magic Missile, CL X in your backpack, scribed for just such an occurance. Likewise, that Scroll of Burning Hands, CL 5 will really be appreciated when the swarm shows up. You only need a few of each on hand, replace them when you use them. This will give you the ability to deal with those unusual enemies that leave fighters feeling inadequate, without making it your focus, nor taking away from your ability to prep spells of your preferred style.
solbergb 01-17-07, 07:50 PM	The only time when you REALLY miss those area damaging spells is when you are facing swarms... I got by with sculpted gust of wind until I could TK large numbers of splash weapons at them.....actually the one time this really came up...given that we were fighting in a candleshop (where the usual fire/acid/lightning approach would have destroyed his stock, whereas high winds just made a mess) it was probably a better option than fireball.
Iswald 01-19-07, 01:25 PM	There have been a large number of occasions when I'd have much preferred a fireball to soften up the bad guys or take out many of them, than to have haste or some battlefield control spell cast. This seems to happen the most at APL 6.
Iswald 01-19-07, 01:41 PM	I've seen it used a lot by a friend's Druid. Transdimensional Barkskin (which is a great idea because there are far more great 2nd level spells than 3rd level spells for Druids, so you free up a valuable second level slot and potentially gain more protection) and Transdimensional Wall of Thorns are his two favorites. Why would you want to do this? The Transdimensional lets you target incorporals. Unless your druid needed to cast barkskin on an incorporal creature, it doesn't seem like a good plan. They could have just used a third level slot to prepare a normal barkskin spell.
Vanadium 01-19-07, 05:33 PM	I got by with sculpted gust of wind until I could TK large numbers of splash weapons at them.....actually the one time this really came up...given that we were fighting in a candleshop (where the usual fire/acid/lightning approach would have destroyed his stock, whereas high winds just made a mess) it was probably a better option than fireball. I want to love Gust of Wind. I really do. I know that with all it can do, it can be such a huge benefit, but I'm just not understanding how to best use it. I mean, there are so few times where it would be useful, and that mostly would be against swarms to cause them to get blown around and potentially scatter them. However, it requires a fortitude save to do more than a moderately strong wind should. It has great utility when the situation calls for it. In my mind, if the spell is only sometimes valuable, you stick it on a scroll. The problem with this is that save. On the other hand, if you prepare the spell regularly, then I could see it going unused quite often. Is this the case? I mean, it doesn't seem like it would matter if you have the scroll if the swarm has to make a lousy DC 12 fort save... What are the opinions on spells like Gust of Wind? I'd imagine there are plenty of spells that are useful at times, but also not too cohesive with scribing scrolls, so if you want it you probably have to prepare it, where it might not be the greatest choice.
RanielK 01-19-07, 06:55 PM	The ones I know: Sunndi (Rieuwood), Verbobonc/Dyvers (Gnarley forest), and iirc Highfolk (Vesve). Gomez The Pale has a tribe of Elf wizards in the Phostwood. The Istari tribe of the Phostaldaran are 90% sylvan and 5% Grey, 3% half, and 2% high elves. This is versus the other tribes which are all 0% Grey. Their specialty (as each tribe has one) is deep lore and arcane knowledge. Dominant alignment N (yea! for my CN Grey Elf Wild Mage Istari). Common classes: wizard, cleric, bladesinger, expert, elemental savant and spellsword. So as you can see, really geared to putting out Grey elf wizzies. The other PC tribes (i.e. non-grugach dominated ones) are usually ~85% sylvan, 5% half elf, and 3% high elf and 2% grugach. Another cool tribe are the More, (90% S, 10% G) who are all about stealth. One of my characters did them a favor and they'll make a real cool set of Elven cloak and boots for him. (More ghillie suit!)
Renewed_Faith 01-20-07, 09:44 AM	2. Am I wrong for playing a utility/battlefield control mage instead of a blaster type in LG? I don't wish to play a blaster mage as it basically flys in the face of everything I know, but at the same time I don't wish to be compared to a basketweaver extraordinaire. I have some experience with this, as I've played my 14th level arcanist as a "crowd control" mage since y1, and I can tell you that I have not once regreted focusing on the less offensive spells. None of the parties I've played with have regreted it either. In fact I once had to slot 0 a metaregional for a con, and as it was a last-minute table, and my main char at the time was out of TUs, I wound up playing him up- 9th level at an APL 14 table. I was later told that my character, and his unique spell selection, made the difference. The right spell selection can make any battle- or even social/RP encounter- that much smoother. For controlling a crowd of "evil-doers", I enjoy spells such as: Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Reduce Person (their fighters hate this, your rogues love it), Enlarge Person (for your fighters or their rogues), Glitterdust, Command Undead (only recommended for regions that won't automatically execute you), Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Web, Haste, Dispel Magic, Hold Person, Otiluke's Resilient Shere, Feeblemind, Flesh to Stone... etc, etc. For RP encounters I tend to have prepped: Comprehend Languages, Scholar's Touch, Friendly Face, Detect Thoughts, Locate Object, Tongues... etc, etc. But while spell selection is key, what really makes or breaks a support/control mage is feat selection. The spells listed above are good, but when I apply my character's feats of Heighten Spell, Sculpt Spell, Transdimensional Spell, or Chain Spell (or combinations) that's when they really shine. Rapid Spell can also be quite useful (a Chained, Rapid Enlarge Person may take up a 5th level spell slot, but having all of your fighters enlarged in one standard action can be life-saving). Just have fun finding combinations of spells/feats that work for you, and you'll find that your mage is quite effective in any encounter. Still, it never hurts to have a damaging spell prepared in case your fighters all fall (or they just can't hit the bad guy). It's also fun to see the looks on peoples' faces when your little support mage Disintegrates the bad guy and then shrugs, "What? I was running out of good spells." ;)
Cynric 01-21-07, 03:46 AM	There's another catch. If you don't play with the same group all the time, you may very well find that there isn't a fighter worth buffing at your table. I see very few of the fighters you are talking about. Archers outnumber melee types at least three to one and many of the remainder are mutts with no clear focus. My druid is accustomed to her tiger being the party's main fighter, because it happens so frequently. Ed Gee that sounds familiar. I was asked less than twenty four hours ago if I wanted to play a game at APL 16. Only problem as far as I was concerned was that I am only level 12 with a level of beastmaster, and the other players I know who would have been on the table were a Grey Elf wizard and a battle cleric. Guess where my tiger would have been in combat?
Southernskies 01-22-07, 07:40 AM	Don't underestimate the use of a well-timed Leomunds Tiny Hut. Saved the entire party from a TPK in a regional where none of us had magic weapons or force spells prepared against a spring-attacking spectre.