Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Japangirl 05-15-07, 11:52 AM	. . . I would like to meet a Planetar or other celestial being who doesn't want to kill me.
_metz_ 05-15-07, 11:56 AM	Somehow I think that is your fault... I could be wrong though ;) You could summon some celestial Badgers... - they will like you, unless you are one of those types that uses em for trap finding... *whistles innocently
Japangirl 05-15-07, 12:04 PM	It truly isn't my fault though! None of the planetars were after me for something I did that was evil, but rather because of various random circumstances. I swear, there's going to be some Core module coming out where the plot hook is "A planetar comes down out of the sky to give you X mission" and my table is going to kill the plot hook :(.
_metz_ 05-15-07, 12:08 PM	Firstly, were you playing a rogue? cos: "various random circumstances" when I play my rogue aren't necessarily EVIL per say... but a few planetars would shall we say, be displeased with the actions... I would like to point out that if You can kill a Planetar, then hey maybe thats why they are after you... (you thought the bad thoughts - not me) :) I have never had that much trouble with celestials, I have a bad reputation with wood elves/wild elves, my characters (even the elvish ones) can never put up with them for long...
Japangirl 05-15-07, 12:24 PM	I was playing my rogue, but in the situations I'm thinking of I could have been a paladin and it wouldn't have mattered. It's boxed text attack, basically, and it's very frustrating. Celestials are *supposed* to be good guys, not opponents. If they were BK mods, that's one thing, but they were Core mods. Both still active, so I can't really say much else.
kenobi65 05-15-07, 12:30 PM	I believe I played one of those two. Possibly the most annoying Core I've ever played, and an incredibly contrived encounter. As I play a *paladin*, and have the favor of the guy who allegedly sicced the planetars on the party, I found it just beyond belief.
Japangirl 05-15-07, 12:32 PM	Yep, that was one of them Kenobi.
pedr 05-15-07, 12:51 PM	I've not played it, and won't, for reasons I'll not mention in case they increase the spoiler content of this thread ... but some local players did play that module (well, the contrived one with celestials as de-facto assassins) and were left fuming - not really just with the nonsense of it, but also with the lack of any real opportunity to make any kind of difference. Ah well :)
Samwise 05-15-07, 01:31 PM	Somehow I think that is your fault... I could be wrong though ;) You could summon some celestial Badgers... - they will like you, unless you are one of those types that uses em for trap finding... *whistles innocently My summoned badgers love me, it is everyone complaining that I didn't cast haste on them that are out to get me.
Genghis Cohen 05-15-07, 02:03 PM	. . . I would like to meet a Planetar or other celestial being who doesn't want to kill me.Do you offer planetars chocolate cake?
Samwise 05-15-07, 02:06 PM	I was playing my rogue, but in the situations I'm thinking of I could have been a paladin and it wouldn't have mattered. It's boxed text attack, basically, and it's very frustrating. Celestials are *supposed* to be good guys, not opponents. If they were BK mods, that's one thing, but they were Core mods. Both still active, so I can't really say much else. Just because celestials are good guys doesn't mean they share your motivations, or that they have to consider you to be good guys as well. If they don't, if you oppose their purpose, there is no reason they must submit to the wills of the PCs just because the PCs are PCs. You mentioned wondering if you'd attack a planetar on sight and kill the plot hook. When running another current adventure, the PCs actually suggested attacking a celestial that was no threat to them, solely because of the deity that celestial served because they didn't like the deity. A good alignment doesn't mean something is never an adversary. It just means your holy weapon doesn't do extra damage.
delewobmesid 05-15-07, 02:27 PM	I think I played one of these and luckly the arcane artillery was in force we just orbed the problem away after they went after the part (which also why I tend toward chaotic neutral) the hook was kind of contrived as well with the only 'right' answer being untakable due to a lack of in character information...and even if you take the 'right' out you still turn up getting dragged along under the cart...
Howie23 05-15-07, 02:45 PM	Just because celestials are good guys doesn't mean they share your motivations, or that they have to consider you to be good guys as well. If they don't, if you oppose their purpose, there is no reason they must submit to the wills of the PCs just because the PCs are PCs. You mentioned wondering if you'd attack a planetar on sight and kill the plot hook. When running another current adventure, the PCs actually suggested attacking a celestial that was no threat to them, solely because of the deity that celestial served because they didn't like the deity. A good alignment doesn't mean something is never an adversary. It just means your holy weapon doesn't do extra damage. I think I'm gonna need more popcorn..... ;) David
Arvagor 05-15-07, 03:42 PM	. . . I would like to meet a Planetar or other celestial being who doesn't want to kill me.Hmm... I've played in at least two mods where we encountered angels -- in the first, a solar presided over a wedding ceremony, and in the second, a planetar gaves us the hook and a reward at the end (or was that a trumpet archon? ) Either way, both were with my rogue -- it pays to be polite ;)
LachlarlanIII 05-15-07, 03:45 PM	Maybe they were Concordant Killers (MMIV I think) in disguise. :D
Reylance 05-15-07, 05:04 PM	That brutal Year 5 Yeomanry module had the party fighting a variety of celestials. Fortunately, our table had a sorcerer with Orb of Force and a Neutral cleric with Align Weapon. Mmmm... evil aligned weapon!
Redfist 05-15-07, 05:08 PM	I played that YEO mod in an Open Fiesta slot. Gotta love big strength + uncanny blow + power attack + align weapon. :D
solbergb 05-15-07, 05:49 PM	. . . I would like to meet a Planetar or other celestial being who doesn't want to kill me. Yeah. My sorceress went from CG to NG because she kept running into butthead eladrin who were so judgemental and snotty that she decided she didn't want to be an alignment associated with such creatures. The last Planetar that harassed my wife's sacred exorcist of Pholtus was subdued by the party and dismissed back to celestia with a note about checking who he's trying to kill before blindly accepting orders. (her attempts to banish it failed to "Stick" until we attached the note heh, clearly Pholtus wanted to send a message). The Dictum it lead with was pretty funny. It really didn't do anything to the party, as it consisted either of people to whom "slowed and deafened" didn't really affect them, lawful neutral types or people too high level.....
Lomiat 05-15-07, 06:24 PM	Japangirl, I'm fairly certain I've played both of the mods to which you allude. The COR... yeah, people have discussed that to death. The other? After my wizard regained some strength after the Waves of Exhaustion (a potion of restoration or something saw to that), he was done being polite. Successive round 1: Fly outside and find something REALLY HEAVY to hoist with Telekinesis. Successive round 2: Slam REALLY HEAVY object into planetar for the KO.
Japangirl 05-16-07, 02:47 AM	I have no objections to planetars or other celestials being opponents for good reasons. In one mod, it was out of nowhere and really made no sense whatsoever (the one everyone knows about), and in the other the celestials don't explain *why* they want you to go away, they just tell you to. As going away would fail the mission, that seems slightly unfair. The celestials in the Y5 Yeo mod made sense, and thus I have no problems with them. They were corrupted and also effectively Dominated, so whatever. I've met a solar who soul-melded me to a ghost and I think that's the only celestial I've met who hasn't tried to kill me. I've made peaceful contact with more demons (CE) than celestials! You hear that, mod writers? If you want to put something like a celestial in a mod, please please make it make sense! Otherwise I'll have to go torture and/or kill innocent celestials just to teach them to leave me alone, and that probably falls into the same "Evil" category as killing kittens or something (my rogue would never kill a kitten btw, she owns one and carries it around with her).
Zodar6 05-16-07, 03:24 AM	I've met a solar who soul-melded me to a ghost I see I'm not the only one who gets to share his body :D
copper_wyrmling 05-16-07, 03:32 AM	(my rogue would never kill a kitten btw, she owns one and carries it around with her). At APL 14-16? :eek: The poor kitten! Is it a demon kitten or something? A half-red-dragon kitten? Mind you, I guess inside the pocket of somebody with evasion is a pretty safe place for a kitten, relatively speaking ;) And yeah, I was on solbergb's table for the planetar encounter. My Neutral Good sacred exorcist (yes, there were two on the table) was already very annoyed at the whole Lawful side of the alignment spectrum due to solbergb's monk's behaviour, so when the planetar flew in and Dictum'ed us it was just the last straw. (She ignored the Dictum due to being too high-level, then Power Word Stunned the poor planetar: I think in that case the Power Word was "IDIOT!" or something analogous ;) )
Madfox11 05-16-07, 04:55 AM	Sounds like a couple of celestials on the verge of falling... Lawful good is not just about law, but good as well. If you focus on one at the expense of the other, you stop being lawful good. It is what happened when the Harmonium in Planescape did something similar and achieved a complete layer to shift to Mechanus ;)
Samwise 05-16-07, 01:42 PM	Otherwise I'll have to go torture and/or kill innocent celestials just to teach them to leave me alone, and that probably falls into the same "Evil" category as killing kittens or something (my rogue would never kill a kitten btw, she owns one and carries it around with her). You've obviously never considered the Pliocene Putty Cat Theory. :P
Timlagor 05-17-07, 03:06 AM	Just because celestials are good guys doesn't mean they share your motivations, or that they have to consider you to be good guys as well. If they don't, if you oppose their purpose, there is no reason they must submit to the wills of the PCs just because the PCs are PCs. You mentioned wondering if you'd attack a planetar on sight and kill the plot hook. When running another current adventure, the PCs actually suggested attacking a celestial that was no threat to them, solely because of the deity that celestial served because they didn't like the deity. A good alignment doesn't mean something is never an adversary. It just means your holy weapon doesn't do extra damage. Yeah.. cos arbitratily attacking a bunch of paladins for failing to do something they weren't given any opportunity to do is really good behaviour. Especially when the party did the next best thing. Now if they had suddenly stopped being celestial the moment they attacked and fallen about in confusion as a result then that could have been really cool ;) But then the guy they serve is clearly a moron (must be his Wis penalty.. I suspect he's an Alienist) since he makes a habbit of sending minions to try to get the PCs to help him by saying things like "I won't tell you who I am or who I work for or what my goals are but you should give me the powerful doodad anyway ..oh and did I mention that I'm not willing to pay you?" despite the fact that if he was open with the PCs they would help him in about 90% of cases. So yeah that NPC in general and that mod in particular are very poor (it almost met the very high -and not yet attained- threshhold for not playing modules by the same author)... must get round to writing to the author about it... On the subject of the module: I was even more irked (not having a Paladin) by the fact that the one thing you can decide in the module makes absolutely no difference whatsoever [actually you can pick one choice that makes a difference but it would be a pretty foolish thing to do].
Lupo 05-17-07, 08:48 AM	Just because celestials are good guys doesn't mean they share your motivations, or that they have to consider you to be good guys as well. If they don't, if you oppose their purpose, there is no reason they must submit to the wills of the PCs just because the PCs are PCs. You mentioned wondering if you'd attack a planetar on sight and kill the plot hook. When running another current adventure, the PCs actually suggested attacking a celestial that was no threat to them, solely because of the deity that celestial served because they didn't like the deity. A good alignment doesn't mean something is never an adversary. It just means your holy weapon doesn't do extra damage. if D&D sets the alignments as absolutes as it does - regarding the discussion on "evil spells" and "channeling negative energy" - all those celestials and angels should be fallen angels now :P i played at least one of those modules, and it was a total nightmare - lots of GOOD clerics, no arcanist in the party. we tried to talk to the THING - ha, ha, it gave us the finger and continued to attack like hell. if it would have been one of those neutral/lawful outsiders from mechanus, fine - tricked into the contract and to lawful to break it - but an ANGEL????? ciao martin m.
Samwise 05-17-07, 10:30 AM	if D&D sets the alignments as absolutes as it does - regarding the discussion on "evil spells" and "channeling negative energy" - all those celestials and angels should be fallen angels now :P Except attacking someone with a good alignment doesn't have an evil descriptor. If it did, there would be a massive lack of clerics in the city of Greyhawk where the followers of Trithereon, Pholtus, and Cuthbert have regular "disagreements." From the point of view of the celestial, you don't need to be given a "chance" to do the right thing, you should be doing it automatically. If you aren't, then it is obviously your aren't all that good. And if your actions (or inactions) are not in perfect agreement with their path of good, there is no falling involved to punish you for your transgressions. It is possible for good creatures, including celestials, to fight each other without becoming evil. If not, then having any variation on the good alignment becomes meaningless, and might as well be dropped.
Japangirl 05-17-07, 12:50 PM	Except that for the first mod, no one had done "not the right choice". In fact, we had done the Right Thing in that mod (rare for BK characters, but oh well it does happen occasionally) and still got attacked. The planetar was sent by a CN mage ****** off that we hadn't done something not-good for him. In the second one, we thought we were doing the right thing, and the celestials don't automatically attack but are supposed to talk to you first. Which means they should probably explain why you should not be there, but they don't at all. It isn't that celestials were involved in mods, as I said. Especially because I do play morally, umm, ambiguous characters a lot, and even the good ones are BK good, not anywhere else good. I would be fine with fighting celestials if there were a reason. But for a celestial to attack a party full of clerics and paladins IN GOOD STANDING WITH THEIR GODS, without warning and with no chance to explain actions, is stupid. Having celestials standing somewhere telling you to fail a mission but not why is not fair to PCs, especially good PCs who expect celestials to have reasons to be somewhere but also think the mission is on the path of good. Two paths of good can definitely fight each other. Overall though, while they definitely have disagreements, they don't tend to go to holy wars because there are other threats out there that require banding together. Sure, a CG follower of Corellon Larethion and a LG follower of St. Cuthbert don't have a lot in common, but they generally won't be at each other's throats over the right thing to do in a good/evil situation either, like ones dealing with the celestials.
Samwise 05-17-07, 01:02 PM	celestials don't automatically attack but are supposed to talk to you first. Which means they should probably explain why you should not be there, but they don't at all. Do you mean the DM ran it wrong? Or do you mean there is a rule that celestials must explain things first? If the first, it is the fault of the DM> If the second, there is no such rule. especially good PCs who expect celestials to have reasons to be somewhere but also think the mission is on the path of good. There you go. You expected them to act in a certain way. Celestials, indeed any planar linked race like that, are not PCs, or even normal creatures. They don't act according to "normal" expectations. They are supposed to be as dangerous, if not more so, than fiends precisely because of that. They are utterly absolute in their alignments, and if there is any disagreement between them and you, it is all your fault, and there is nothing contrary to their alignment in removing you. Overall though, while they definitely have disagreements, they don't tend to go to holy wars because there are other threats out there that require banding together. There was a time when they did. Indeed, that is a key element of the "greyness" people associate with Greyhawk. Good can be and too often is as utterly intolerant of dissent as Evil. That Good is more capable of putting aside those differences and uniting is why it typically defeats Evil. And don't forget the Law-Chaos axis. Archons and Devils will unite to fight Eladrins and Demons if it means keeping Chaos under control. Ugly, but that's part of the background too.
Japangirl 05-17-07, 01:13 PM	No, the DM ran it right, the tactics say they talk to you and try to persuade you to leave. Unfortunately, the things they say (which are provided in the mod, not DM discretion) are terribly unhelpful and not very explanatory, which is why I put it down to authorship and not DM. As for different definitions of good, <stupid mods still in play, spoilers would be bad, so nevermind, but arguments exist>. As I have said earlier, I don't mind fighting or killing celestials and I don't think attacking PCs makes them fallen angels or anything. I do think that there should be good reasons for them to be in a mod and good reasons for them to attack PCs, even if the PCs don't know what they are. There was no good reason for the first celestial (non-good NPC gated it in because he was mad at us, and no it was not controlled), and the second ones had very poor explanations for their actions which were supposed to be explained to PCs. That sort of thing annoys me.
Samwise 05-17-07, 01:24 PM	No, the DM ran it right, the tactics say they talk to you and try to persuade you to leave. Unfortunately, the things they say (which are provided in the mod, not DM discretion) are terribly unhelpful and not very explanatory, which is why I put it down to authorship and not DM. Ah! Yes, that can be an issue. As for different definitions of good, <stupid mods still in play, spoilers would be bad, so nevermind, but arguments exist>. *points to the button by the name* Send me a private message, I can't (as in not allowed to) play core adventures. (And I've likely read or run the adventures already anyway.) I'd like to hear your views on that subject.
Timlagor 05-18-07, 05:57 AM	Except attacking someone with a good alignment doesn't have an evil descriptor. If it did, there would be a massive lack of clerics in the city of Greyhawk where the followers of Trithereon, Pholtus, and Cuthbert have regular "disagreements." Attacking someone good without provocation or warning is an evil act at any table I GM. I'm surprised to find that anyone thinks otherwise. (especially in light of the 'attacking another PC' rule which spcifically refers to Evil rather than merely making it illegal in teh campaign) It may well be the case that there shouldbe fewer clerics in Greyhawk but it is notable that you can have Clerics of all the gods you mention that aren't Good. It is also the case that one evil act doesn't necessarily change your alignment. ..of course if they're regularly killing each other inthe streets as you imply then there won't be many left anyway (unless they have really amazing recruitment). From the point of view of the celestial, you don't need to be given a "chance" to do the right thing, you should be doing it automatically. If you aren't, then it is obviously your aren't all that good. And if your actions (or inactions) are not in perfect agreement with their path of good, there is no falling involved to punish you for your transgressions. Clearly I need to rephrase: "It is not possible to do what they want purely because of the way the module is written to railroad the PCs." Our party at least made every effort to do the right thing and indeed did so successfully imo -there was a conspicuously LG option if you recall. It is possible for good creatures, including celestials, to fight each other without becoming evil. If not, then having any variation on the good alignment becomes meaningless, and might as well be dropped. Where does this come from? It's perfectly possible for good people to behave differently and disagree without actively hunting each other down! Killing is not the only method of conflict resolution ...!does that really need stating?
kenobi65 05-18-07, 12:56 PM	All I can say is that the example I gave / played was, IMO, so out-there and egregious that I can't say I'd have much interest in playing another module by that author. (And, I think I can speak for the other folks who were at my table, as well; by the end of the module, we were all in collective disbelief.) (Parenthetically: if said author, who does frequent these boards (trying to stay spoiler-free here) would like to PM me and take the discussion off-list, I'd be happy to discuss further.)
Timlagor 05-18-07, 01:19 PM	All I can say is that the example I gave / played was, IMO, so out-there and egregious that I can't say I'd have much interest in playing another module by that author. (And, I think I can speak for the other folks who were at my table, as well; by the end of the module, we were all in collective disbelief.) I have a very high threshold for this -70%+ of the pleasure of LG games comes from the people at the table and my own character- but it did come close ..and supplanted Price of Power at the bottom of the pile. (Parenthetically: if said author, who does frequent these boards (trying to stay spoiler-free here) would like to PM me and take the discussion off-list, I'd be happy to discuss further.) Ahhh. I hadn't checked who the author was.
Samwise 05-18-07, 02:57 PM	Attacking someone good without provocation or warning is an evil act at any table I GM. I'm surprised to find that anyone thinks otherwise. (especially in light of the 'attacking another PC' rule which spcifically refers to Evil rather than merely making it illegal in teh campaign) Attacking other PCs is there for campaign stability. I do not see it as being any definitive statement on alignment. If it were, PCs would always require atonement, even if mind controlled. Warning is easily subjective, and provocation even more so. It may well be the case that there shouldbe fewer clerics in Greyhawk but it is notable that you can have Clerics of all the gods you mention that aren't Good. It is also the case that one evil act doesn't necessarily change your alignment. Yet many NPCs that act in such ways are openly Good. And even if not, they should be losing their abilities for such blatant acts by your standard. Clearly I need to rephrase: "It is not possible to do what they want purely because of the way the module is written to railroad the PCs." That depends on what adventure you are talking about. It is possible that is so. Other considerations would then be relevant. Our party at least made every effort to do the right thing and indeed did so successfully imo -there was a conspicuously LG option if you recall. Again, it depends on the adventure. You can of course PM me about it. Where does this come from? It's perfectly possible for good people to behave differently and disagree without actively hunting each other down! Killing is not the only method of conflict resolution ...!does that really need stating? It comes from the background of the campaign setting. The early background of the campaign setting, and several other elements that efforts were made to retcon out of existence in the pursuit of what I see as the incredibly weak presentation of Good that eventually appeared in the Book of Exalted Deeds. As for killing, it may not be the only method, but when it comes to a game with alignments, it is the only guaranteed method of conflict resolution. The Harmonium has been mentioned. I will note that they have not fallen and become Evil. Obviously violence does indeed solve many things.
Mattastrophic 05-18-07, 04:02 PM	With regards to the issue, I'll weigh in... I've met two creatures of type Angel in Cores. One was of a "unliked" Deity, so that one was okay. The other attacked the party. It sounds like some of you people were up in arms over this. I thought the mod was friggin' amazing. You guys do realize that MAYBE the angel was summoned (i.e. not under its own free will) by a guy who had a very biased view of a situation he didn't even witness personally? That the entire theme of the mod was about the moral shades of grey that adventurers sometime experience, where there really is no one "best" way out, where the objective instead is to find the least of all evils? If the writer reads this board, let me say to him THANK YOU! That mod rocked! -Matt
LeeShort 05-18-07, 06:13 PM	With regards to the issue, I'll weigh in... That the entire theme of the mod was about the moral shades of grey that adventurers sometime experience, where there really is no one "best" way out, where the objective instead is to find the least of all evils? I haven't played the mod in question, and can't comment on it specifically. That said, I have absolutely hated at least 50% of the "moral shades of grey" adventures that I have played in LG -- and the successful ones have been successful in spite of rather than because of the moral questions they raised. There are a number of reasons why LG is a poor venue for this sort of adventure -- limited time for debate/discussion, tables often consist of strangers, players often have wildly diverging ideas of what constitutes 'good', and it's really not fun to have the GM forced to pass judgment on your vision of them (as the LG judging rules require). IME, if these mods are 'successful' in stimulating moral debate, then by the end of the mod, most of the table is thinking something along the lines of "dear god, just put me out of my misery now. I don't even care if I get an AR." Now, it's probably possible to write an LG mod that does "shades of grey" well. But if you're writing such a mod, keep in mind: this mod will be played by a group of 5 strangers, each with divergent moral viewpoints and legitimate differences between their own interpretations of 'good.' You as module author need to figure out how to make this mod fun for that group of gamers.
Mattastrophic 05-18-07, 06:33 PM	And that's why I love homeplay. No strangers, virtually unlimited time, you know your GM, relaxed atmosphere, everybody wins. Also, to make one of these mods work, it does take a GM willing to run it well, as opposed to the "hurry up and get to the next fight" style, and players who are willing to actually participate in anything beyond "hurry up and get to the next fight." -Matt
solbergb 05-18-07, 07:20 PM	I'm the opposite. I love convention play with strangers. RPGA is one of the rare ways I get to meet new faces who don't think it is weird to enjoy gaming. I also get exposed to a lot of new ideas in both playing well and running a fun game. To get that benefit, you have to put up with the occasional people whose style you don't like, and sadly, sometimes unprepared GM's or players who don't know what their character does even though they've played them for a year. To get the bulk of the bell curve, and also to get the "good' outliers, you need to get the "bad" outliers as well. I like home campaigns too, but it isn't what I play LG for. I like having a familiar face or two at the table, but it's the unfamiliar that keeps me on my toes. The only problem I've had with moral issue modules is that sometimes the CHARACTERS get into an intractible dispute and some PLAYERS have trouble separating it - plus some players, myself included, have the metagame desire to have the game succeed, and these modules sometimes degenerate into a kind of "no-win" situation for everyone. Some of the best and the most frustrating play I've had has been at tables like this. I like that sort of thing in moderation, it adds spice, but if it happened routinely I'd burn out on the campaign really fast. Mostly, we want to be heroes (or anti-heroes) and go out and solve difficult problems with simple, violent solutions, like a normal D&D adventurer....
Mattastrophic 05-19-07, 11:16 AM	I'm the opposite. I love convention play with strangers. You're also in the Pale, where conventions are composed of pure awesome. So I'll make an exception to my previous statement for Pale cons. -Matt
Shieldhart91 05-19-07, 09:29 PM	I'm going to simply comment on the one Core mod...the author who wrote this mod was [removed on the author's honor]. There, I said it. That module was terribly unstructured and made almost no sense to me...I ran it, and I burned it- which I'm glad I did. I mean come on! The gameplay was so linear it wasn't even funny. Didn't give the PCs any option...at -all-. *sigh* I too, would love to meet a friendly planetar. Luckily, whenever I run into the bad-good planetar, someone always takes it out in one round. I guess my Paladin will never know the pleasure...
solbergb 05-20-07, 02:16 PM	You're also in the Pale, where conventions are composed of pure awesome. So I'll make an exception to my previous statement for Pale cons. -Matt Yeah, well, I travel too. Only regional conventions with a lot of slots will get me on an airplane. I accept as part of the experience that some tables will be weak, some may have indifferent or "cold" judging and that I won't like every player I sit down with. What I try to avoid is sitting down with the same folks I play with in the Pale, if I can (one "convention" RPGA presence was so small we played all weekend with a pool of the same 4-8 players, with various players switching off to GM from time to time). Many of my best stories though, come from when I travel. While yes, we run good conventions in the Pale, it isn't the only reason
Lomiat 05-20-07, 02:39 PM	Since the author of the Core mod that's prompted such heated and often needlessly personal or cruel remarks happens to patrol these boards (and, in fact, this thread) quite frequently, it's worth addressing that though the module has its faults -- as do most, if we're honest about them -- it can result in a truly entertaining play experience. The degree to which that happens depends largely upon the degree to which the DM has gone through the effort of preparing the module to accomodate his or her table and the players' actions. Furthermore, the module *does* account for a way in which the PCs avoid combat with the angels, and while it's unlikely the PCs will go that route, it becomes clear what the angels consider to be the only "right" action. I've run the module twice: Once I ran it cold for a midnight madness at a convention after having played it (and thoroughly enjoyed myself), and that table suffered all kinds of ways from my ignorance of various elements. The second time I ran it, I took a number of efforts to better prepare myself (including filling myself in on some information that was lacking within the text of the adventure itself -- and the author can PM me if he wishes). I knew what PCs the table would bring, and they all had a blast, including the one PC who couldn't actually participate in the roleplay because he couldn't speak Common. (It was a riot to watch that player struggle to keep quiet...)
Redfist 05-20-07, 02:53 PM	I'm going to simply comment on the one Core mod...the author who wrote this mod was idiot. There, I said it. I have yet to see such a comment actually cause any benefit whatsoever. It's neither constructive nor informative. In truth, comments like that usually say much more about the maker of the comment than about the target.
nobodez 05-20-07, 08:53 PM	I played the module that has the most problems, and I got off lucky. The slot ran too long and we missed the final encounter. I personally enjoyed the rest of the module, and since I didn't actually play that last encounter, it wouldn't have been much of a problem. Now, if I had gotten to play the encounter, then I would have used my 8,400 gp ace in the hole, my candle of invocation, and used it to save my party's collective arse, since my character would have run from that fight rather than participate in it. She's a NG Arcane Hierophant and a Bishop of Pelor in the County of Urnst. It seems that modules like that encourage 'BK good' PCs, Neutral PCs (as in non-good), and TPKs, which I don't think any LG module, with it's heroic feel, should do. Esp. since there was no way, as it was run for me, to actually know the consequences of the actions.
Mattastrophic 05-20-07, 11:08 PM	You know, Angels do take nonlethal damage... -Matt
Shieldhart91 05-21-07, 12:37 AM	Blah. I feel horrible. Okay, I take the idiot comment back. Maybe that was a bit uncalled for, and a bit troll-like of me. I'll admit, sure- the adventure has it's perks. But instead of being a troll, I'll be open and nice about the criticism: I prefer a more structured adventure, while not being so linear. Sure- we all have our preferential playing styles, and while not all of them are wrong: some aren't as liked as others. I've ran mods where I literally had to come up with excuses to the players why the story went the way it did. This was one of those mods. The adventure itself had a lot of creative input on the DM; something I didn't have time to prep, nor the creativity at the time. Everything just seemed some random to me. I was confused- truly, and maybe I should have gotten in touch with the author to better run the mod. My apologies to the author, who I won't name in order not to spoil the mod. Forgive me? =) That was a bit of my Chaotic Evil grouchyness coming out to bite me in the ass. I try not to be like those guys...but every dog has it's bad day, I suppose would be the counter-argument. I'm a beginning author myself, so maybe I shouldn't be putting my foot in my mouth there.
Drezden 05-25-07, 12:13 AM	I enjoyed the mod. But, the author ran it for my group - we were one of the playtest groups. Obviously, there was no problem with the DM not reading the mod or not knowing the author's intent there. :) I also think that the vast majority of poor play experiences are caused by the DM or a problem player. I haven't found too many authors whose mods warrant banning altogether. I defintely didn't see anything so bad in this module to warrant that. I am glad that some people who were not happy with the mod appear to have taken advantage of the send a message to the author option. It is only fair, since the author has spent (and continues to spend) a tremendous amount of time and effort on making the campaign better for everyone else - and gets very little out of it personally. Said author for years did not even play LG - he only volunteered and DMed. Even now he DMs much, much more frequently than he plays. Now, I don't know if you will change his mind on many points - that is kind of hard to do :) - but I am sure he will listen to all comments and made and try to use them to make his next mod (as well as other people's mods) better. Daren
Genghis Cohen 05-28-07, 03:47 PM	I enjoyed the mod. But, the author ran it for my group - we were one of the playtest groups. Obviously, there was no problem with the DM not reading the mod or not knowing the author's intent there. :) I also think that the vast majority of poor play experiences are caused by the DM or a problem player. I haven't found too many authors whose mods warrant banning altogether. I defintely didn't see anything so bad in this module to warrant that. I am glad that some people who were not happy with the mod appear to have taken advantage of the send a message to the author option. It is only fair, since the author has spent (and continues to spend) a tremendous amount of time and effort on making the campaign better for everyone else - and gets very little out of it personally. Said author for years did not even play LG - he only volunteered and DMed. Even now he DMs much, much more frequently than he plays. Now, I don't know if you will change his mind on many points - that is kind of hard to do :) - but I am sure he will listen to all comments and made and try to use them to make his next mod (as well as other people's mods) better. DarenDaren, I also played it with the author as DM and greatly enjoyed it, although I wasn't in a playtest group. I would love to know how prepared the DM was for those who did not have a good gaming experience. Russ...