Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Halworth 08-19-07, 06:12 PM	Is it too soon to start talking open rebellion?(No, not the game system, I mean REALLY OPEN REBELLION) Who are the Circle? Who are the Triads? Who are the Authors? Who are the Event organisers? Who arethe GMs? Volunteers. Do we have to move on? Not if we don't want to. We could take the whole LG system away from WotC...make a home campaign based on the "old LG system" If we could get a 1% defection rate... We could keep LG going in it's present form, sort of. We could change some names, host our own website, Call it HRPGA HomeRolePlayersAssoc. Change enough information to avoid copyright issues. We make LG go, we are the engine, we decide if we move on. The question for you is Fight or Flight... just think....... 1% defection. One Circle Member..... Some Triads....... Some Authors...... GMs and Players would follow. Is it too soon to talk open rebellion?
scon40 08-19-07, 06:21 PM	What you're talking about is an illegal action that will have you looking at a likely court case. LG is owned by WotC. What you're talking about isn't a possibility.
Sieylianna 08-19-07, 06:25 PM	If I was going to, which I'm not, I certainly wouldn't post about it on the RPGA boards. The same thing happened when LG ended. At that point, I told people that instead of complaining, they should buy Hasbro stock. It was around $10 a share back then. Right now, it's at $27, although it was over $30 before the problems with the Mattel toy recalls. The only thing Hasbro understands is shareholders. All your open rebellion is going to do is get you in legal hot water. Even if you aren't doing anything wrong, you're going to need a lawyer if Hasbro's lawyers come after you. Ed
WolfStar76 08-19-07, 06:32 PM	Ian and Chris recommended against the community trying to convert LG to a "LG without the copyrights" campaign. They said that while the volunteer base, as well as the fans are perfectly welcome to create their own non-Greyhawk Living-style system, they saw the pains that Living City (I think that was their reference point) went through in attempting the same conversion. In the end it didn't do anybody any favors. Not to mention the affore-mentioned legal issues if you don't manage to pull at the Greyhawk content out of the campaign. You're welcome to try, you really are, but look to the others that have tried the same conversion before you try to follow in their footsteps. While it *sounds* like its as easy as renaming a few things, and making a couple new maps, there's a lot of work to be done in such an operation.
Halworth 08-19-07, 06:37 PM	...
Halworth 08-19-07, 06:39 PM	...
Mithreinmaethor 08-19-07, 06:47 PM	... Just trying to bump this asinine post up to the top in hopes to find others that will join you in your silliness ?
Grimslade2001 08-19-07, 06:52 PM	Just trying to bump this asinine post up to the top in hopes to find others that will join you in your silliness ? There is no need to bash another player please. Just let the thread die. Everybody needs to go through the grief process their own way.
Jay_Ibero_911 08-19-07, 06:54 PM	I'm not sure what legal issues there would be. As long as no one is selling any LG material or anything, can't anyone write anything they want, just like fanfiction?
scon40 08-19-07, 07:21 PM	Common misconception Jay. If you distribute something, it can't contain any LG/WotC content. It doesn't matter if you distribute it for free.
clannagh 08-19-07, 07:51 PM	Common misconception Jay. If you distribute something, it can't contain any LG/WotC content. It doesn't matter if you distribute it for free. I think technically you can't even write a WWII story featuring a Sherman tank without risking litigation by the tanks original manufacturer. These days the original company doesnt even need to catch you either. There are law firms around that specialise in tracking down breach of copywrite, preparing a case on spec and then fronting up to the original copyright owner, litigation already prepared, saying " Today is your lucky day, do we have some good news for you !! Just sign here pleaee. ".
Jay_Ibero_911 08-19-07, 07:53 PM	Common misconception Jay. If you distribute something, it can't contain any LG/WotC content. It doesn't matter if you distribute it for free. Well that sucks. But if that is true, then how could there be any fanfictions of anything at all on the internet? Unless just making something available to view doesn't count as distributing. In which case underground LG writers could just post their adventures somewhere, and if other players download or print them, that's there own business?
scon40 08-19-07, 09:32 PM	When companies find out about fanfiction, they usually send out cease and desist notices to those authors.
KarmaInferno 08-19-07, 11:39 PM	Fan Fiction is technically illegal, under the provisions for derivative content in most countries. If an IP owner finds out about it, they are legally burdened with having to shut that violation down. It's the way copyright systems work in the US. Now, a company can probably pretend ignorance over something minor, if they could reasonably claim they "didn't know about it", but there's the catch-22. If the new "rebel" campaign was so low key and under the radar that this is a reasonable claim, it's really not a success, is it? And the moment it DOES become successful, WotC can't reasonably claim they didn't hear about it. And has to take action. -karma
LeeShort 08-20-07, 12:58 AM	Common misconception Jay. If you distribute something, it can't contain any LG/WotC content. It doesn't matter if you distribute it for free. It certainly can contain conforming OGL WotC content. It can also contain anything that fits the Fair Use provisions of copyright law. Personally, I think it sounds like more effort than it's worth to maintain a Living Campaign while staying within those restrictions...but I've already been considering an LG-continuation home game, which doesn't have the same legal issues. LG is why I play D&D...I took a 20-year break in which I played all kinds of other RPGs but no D&D. When LG dies, I will either cease playing D&D or continue it as home game.
LGMoses 08-20-07, 01:36 AM	Let the Galaxy Burn!:evillaugh
Banor 08-20-07, 03:28 AM	The Tusmit Revolutionary Army is willing to help handing out Wand of Scorching Ray to volonteers to fight the Forgotten Realm oppresor
Gelth 08-20-07, 03:41 AM	I think running a Living campaign is way, way, way more effort than you give it credit for. Look at Living Planar. It is basically what you describe. Sure, it exists (as far as I know, anyway) and it may even be a success on its own scale. It's simply nothing even close to a major Living campaign, however. Shining Jewel is in the same boat. Living Greyhawk works because of all the resources poured into it by WotC. It wouldn't exist otherwise. I strongly suspect that 4.0 will be a better game system anyway (game design evolves forwards not backwards), and most people will convert to it. --Penn, Ket Triad
AOSOL 08-20-07, 12:05 PM	Because LG will crash and burn and become another living (ruined) city.
UMiskatonic 08-20-07, 01:03 PM	There's absolutely NOTHING to stop you and your friends from taking your LG characters, and playing them until the end of time.
Zanzibax 08-20-07, 01:40 PM	Fan Fiction is technically illegal, under the provisions for derivative content in most countries. If an IP owner finds out about it, they are legally burdened with having to shut that violation down. It's the way copyright systems work in the US. Now, a company can probably pretend ignorance over something minor, if they could reasonably claim they "didn't know about it", but there's the catch-22. If the new "rebel" campaign was so low key and under the radar that this is a reasonable claim, it's really not a success, is it? And the moment it DOES become successful, WotC can't reasonably claim they didn't hear about it. And has to take action. -karma Win/win for us. We get to play or WotC craps on their base with legal action and destroys themselves. We'll pick up the pieces on the cheap.
KarmaInferno 08-20-07, 02:10 PM	More likely, faced with legal action and the thousands of dollars in legal fees that entails, most groups will simply fold and stop. People who want to run an unauthorized version of LG haven't got a legal leg to stand on. And if you think the fate of a few rebellious gamers who were clearly breaking the law will matter to the gaming community at large, you're kidding yourself. -karma
Zanzibax 08-20-07, 02:51 PM	I think the fate of such players will give WotC a black eye. Even if the case is as clear cut as you claim.
KarmaInferno 08-20-07, 03:10 PM	And I think that ultimately it's no worse than what happened when LC got the axe. Most of the rest of the gaming world didn't care. The player members of the RPGA tend to overestimate their importance in the larger scheme of things. -karma
NiTessine 08-20-07, 03:56 PM	This thread reminds me of this comic strip: http://xkcd.com/299/ Let it go, people. Let it die with honour, dignity, and style. It's the way a campaign should end, instead of being made into a hollow image of its former self that hasn't a fraction of the former player base or resources to make it work.
Britt 08-20-07, 06:20 PM	The problem is that you have already stated that you are trying to change just enough to avoid copyright issues. That means you are making a derivative work, which can't avoid copyright issues. The fact that you are trying makes it necessarily violate copyright.
Jay_Ibero_911 08-20-07, 06:28 PM	The problem is that you have already stated that you are trying to change just enough to avoid copyright issues. That means you are making a derivative work, which can't avoid copyright issues. The fact that you are trying makes it necessarily violate copyright. So what? It's a catch 22? I hate all this copywrite bs...if you didn't directly write it, quit your whining. That's my opinion on it...
barbaxbonecrusher 08-20-07, 09:13 PM	I think running a Living campaign is way, way, way more effort than you give it credit for. Look at Living Planar. It is basically what you describe. Sure, it exists (as far as I know, anyway) and it may even be a success on its own scale. It's simply nothing even close to a major Living campaign, however. Shining Jewel is in the same boat. Living Greyhawk works because of all the resources poured into it by WotC. It wouldn't exist otherwise. I strongly suspect that 4.0 will be a better game system anyway (game design evolves forwards not backwards), and most people will convert to it. --Penn, Ket Triad Living Arcanis is pretty strong. However I have no interest for it. As far as a retired campaign setting having a life after WotC, just look at what happened to Living City.
KarmaInferno 08-21-07, 12:01 AM	So what? It's a catch 22? I hate all this copywrite bs...if you didn't directly write it, quit your whining. That's my opinion on it... But your opinion, really, does not matter to the law. -karma
Jay_Ibero_911 08-21-07, 07:25 AM	But your opinion, really, does not matter to the law. -karma And the law does not matter to my opinion...for reasons I won't go into, I personally at least am above the law of anyone but lone vigilantes...
KarmaInferno 08-21-07, 10:24 AM	Well, if you're willing to get your ass handed to you in court, I guess there's nothing more that I can say. Just don't expect many people to join you for that. One person alone trying to run a Living Campaign is kinda difficult. -karma
Iswald 08-21-07, 11:06 AM	Living Greyhawk works because of all the resources poured into it by WotC. It wouldn't exist otherwise. What kind of resources does WotC put into LG in particular? I just wonder if they do anything to support cons or triads. They have these forums which have more than a few problems. But, they're not just for LG (well, one forum and two subforums out of how many total?) They also send out RPGA reward cards, some of which are aimed at LG, ironically, more so at the end of LG. Still, everyone knows how many cards were sent out for other campaigns. BTW, wasn't there some speculation going around a year ago about WotC losing the rights to Greyhawk in the near future?
Jay_Ibero_911 08-21-07, 04:06 PM	I'll start my own campaign, with blackjack, and hookers!...In fact, forget the campagn and the blackjack!
catsclaw 08-21-07, 06:04 PM	I'll start my own campaign, with blackjack, and hookers!...In fact, forget the campagn and the blackjack!There's no delicate way to put this, but what kind of access rules are you considering?
LGMoses 08-23-07, 02:16 AM	I say we all convert over to Living Realms and create mobs and mobs of first level characters. Then we use them to hunt sig characters in large groups. Thats where you get the FR campaign setting. Kill the sig characters. Start with some of Drizzt's friends and work your way up.
Jay_Ibero_911 08-23-07, 06:50 AM	I say we all convert over to Living Realms and create mobs and mobs of first level characters. Then we use them to hunt sig characters in large groups. Thats where you get the FR campaign setting. Kill the sig characters. Start with some of Drizzt's friends and work your way up. Problem is, it has to actually be an option in the mods in order to do it...most will probably have some auto-arrested/defeated bit to handle that like many LG mods do to protect important characters.
Fsi-Dib 08-23-07, 07:36 AM	I doubt creating your own, independant Living campaign is an impossibility. What is an impossibility, however, is to find such an organizer/master mind who'd have enough charisma to get other people along the project. Also, in addition, it would require a custom/homebrew with no references to campaign worlds owned by Wizards of the Coast. That is possible, but requires a lot of dedication. Knowing how enthusiastic humans are to talk and boast how they will quit buying books and supporting WotC and yadda yadda, they eventually won't do it. The same goes with bigger projects with independant workers. If my message here provokes someone to go on an eternal crusade to prove me wrong, and succeed, I'm glad.
KarmaInferno 08-23-07, 07:46 AM	There are already several campaigns that have done exactly what you suggest, start their own non-infringing campaigns. Heroes of Ribhus, Legends of the Shining Jewel, Starmage Prophecies, Fellowship of the White Star, etc. Some are even moderately successful. I know LSJ runs in conventions in quite a few places nationwide. -karma
Fsi-Dib 08-23-07, 07:59 AM	There are already several campaigns that have done exactly what you suggest, start their own non-infringing campaigns. Heroes of Ribhus, Legends of the Shining Jewel, Starmage Prophecies, Fellowship of the White Star, etc. Some are even moderately successful. I know LSJ runs in conventions in quite a few places nationwide. -karma Good to hear. None, as predicted, haven't reached the far realms of Nordic countries. At least I haven't heard of any. :P
Madfox11 08-23-07, 08:07 AM	What kind of resources does WotC put into LG in particular? You might be surprised how much support goes in adventure distrubution and above all communication. One of the biggest issues a campaign faces is making its existence known to the public, and virtually all D&D players will be visiting the WotC website at one time or another and from there it is a small step to the RPGA site.
Glanila 08-23-07, 08:25 AM	What you're talking about is an illegal action that will have you looking at a likely court case. LG is owned by WotC. What you're talking about isn't a possibility. He's talking about changing enough to prevent a court case. Besides, WotC is more likely to send endless Cease and Desist letters. I have not heard of even one lawsuit that WotC has brought against a group of gamers playing D&D using source material sold to them for the purposes of giving structure to the game. I'm with OP on open rebellion. I have a trio of mods almost ready to go which will never be printed by RPGA because they aren't wrapping up the campaign. :(
CrystalBlue 08-23-07, 08:31 AM	Look, people...it's not like we don't all think this is a bad thing. We're all depressed and sore about the end of a campaign and a new D&D edition. I can tell you, first hand, that when people were in that event hall and hearing about the announcment that no one was happy. They clapped, put on a happy face, and tried to continue playing. But almost every table that slot was fuming mad. You're not alone, so please don't act like it. We're all ticked off and mad as hell. Some more then others. Hell, I have people in my home town that just started playing LG and were loving their first mods. And I'm the one that has to come to the next game day, with them oblivious, and tell them that there's no reason for their level 1 and 2 characters to even play. It's bad, but it's not something we can avoid or change. Capitalistic sociaty forces businesses like WotC to make new things to get money. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it's just the fact of the matter. Companies want to make money. If my company, right now, found out that one of their products was making a few customers unhappy and stopped trying to make that product, I'd be out of a job. It's not fair...it's life. And trying to get us all up in arms about this and 'fight the man' will only serve to make this even harder and more painful for the rest of us. Unless you can get EVERY customer of D&D to boycot WotC at the same time, you won't change a thing. And even then, they'll just cut off that apendage and continue, because their real money makers are in things like Magic. They picked up D&D and they don't need it to make a profit. They'll find something else to make money on. With that said, be thankful that we're getting another Living campaign at all. WotC could have just cut it out completely. We can still play and have a good time. Get over your childish problems and play some D&D.
Madfox11 08-23-07, 08:50 AM	And I'm the one that has to come to the next game day, with them oblivious, and tell them that there's no reason for their level 1 and 2 characters to even play. Huh? What about enjoying 5 hours of fun gaming with your friends? Do you play this game because of what your character might do in 2 years? I play this game for the fun I get out of it at the table at that moment. Speculating about future events and character builds is also part of the fun, but IMO it is not the most important part by a long shot. Besides, we are working on things to increase play opportunities for involved (as said in several other threads) so unless you are a casual player you should be able to get your rather high level before the end.
CrystalBlue 08-23-07, 09:43 AM	It's not that. It's the fact that they won't be invested in the game. The triad's have done a wonderful job of weaving tales of their regions into the game. They've painted great conflicts, tragedies, and battles for us to take part in and remember. It's given us all things to fight for, gives some of us a reason to actually like the regions we're apart of. But that takes time to understand the region and what's going on. Throwing a finale at them without giving them the proper background is not fair to them or the region.
Madfox11 08-23-07, 09:53 AM	I have played home campaigns that set off with less then 1 year of planned time, and created just as much investure in the characters if not more then with a campaign we did not know when it would finish. It is all a matter of how people set up the final story and how much help their fellow players give in providing them with the necessary background information. So why don't you strife to make it fun for them as possible instead of just giving it up? I am sad to see the campaign end as well, but I am going to make sure it will be an end to remember and ultimately we are all responsible for us to have fun.
CrystalBlue 08-23-07, 10:51 AM	Look...I want people to have as much fun as they can. That's the point of this game. I just feel that if I was in their shoes, I was being ripped off. All of this background and story, political intrigue, and now they only get a year to try and catch it all and make some sense of it all before everything comes to an end. Sorry if my opinion is wrong...it is a lot of the time. I just don't want them to feel lost.
Iswald 08-23-07, 10:57 AM	You might be surprised how much support goes in adventure distrubution and above all communication. One of the biggest issues a campaign faces is making its existence known to the public, and virtually all D&D players will be visiting the WotC website at one time or another and from there it is a small step to the RPGA site. A small step? Do you know just how dang hard it is to find the LGCS starting from the top of the D&D web page? Even knowing that it exists, the easiest way to find it is to do a search. When you didn't have a working search function, you could easily spend 30 minutes looking for it. The same problem exists if you're looking for information on the various regions. Hopefully, you'll remember to bookmark it for next time, when you find what you're looking for! If you do look at the main RPGA page, there's nothing there that a new player will understand... The whole D&D web site is poorly designed. The RPGA section is the worst. To say that the WotC pushed LG is a joke, in my opinion. Maybe when LG was starting. I wasn't a member at that time. Not saying that WotC doesn't do anything. But, what is contributed seems fairly minimal. From what I've seen, it's the players who've done the most to encourage and support LG.
rpgdcj 08-23-07, 11:46 AM	Look...I want people to have as much fun as they can. That's the point of this game. I just feel that if I was in their shoes, I was being ripped off. All of this background and story, political intrigue, and now they only get a year to try and catch it all and make some sense of it all before everything comes to an end. Sorry if my opinion is wrong...it is a lot of the time. I just don't want them to feel lost. I'm new to LG; played my first mod in May. And I've run the gamut of emotions that most of you have following the announcement. My character is 3rd level right now, and I've projected that by the end of 2008, I can hit 10th or 11th if I'm lucky and don't die too many times. And that's not even with a lifting of the TU limits; I figure I have 45 mods to go, minimum, to reach that goal. I have 32 TUs left this year, and 52 available next year, at least. Even if I have to pay 2 TUs for out of region stuff, it's doable. Now I just have to find the time to play that much. :D -Dave
KarmaInferno 08-23-07, 12:12 PM	It's not that. It's the fact that they won't be invested in the game. You do realize, time was there was no such thing as an RPGA Living Campaign. Almost all RPGA games were self-contained one-shots with pre-generated characters, with no permanancy beyond perhaps a series of related one-shots that ran maybe a half dozen adventures. Plenty of people found those enjoyable. They got invested in the space of minutes, nevermind a year. I still remember playing a scared little girl in Monster Under the Bed, and that was a decade ago. Great fun. The game is what you make of it. Let your players know what's happening, and let 'em decide for themselves if they want to still have a go at it. You can have a lot of fun in a year. So what if you'll probably never hit double digit levels? -karma
Mystical_Tutor 08-23-07, 12:32 PM	Do you know just how dang hard it is to find the LGCS starting from the top of the D&D web page? Even knowing that it exists, the easiest way to find it is to do a search. When you didn't have a working search function, you could easily spend 30 minutes looking for it. Had some of the same problems when I first started with this site. Recomend you use Google advanced search options. Great for finding Britt's comments in these mounds of highly intelectual compost.
markjsb 08-23-07, 12:43 PM	I just wanted to point out a little fact about the legal system in our country. We have this fun little procedure called a "trial". It's where two parties come to prove that their side of an argument is the valid one. Now, here's the fun part, it's not decided by the corporate lawyer who tries to scare everyone away from the concept of letting it go to this "kooky" little trial thing where the corporate lawyer(s) don't control the outcome. So just remember all the "legalese declarations", no matter how imperically they are stated, are only the poster's opinion and therefore are no more valid than any other poster's opinion.:)
cetiken 08-23-07, 12:56 PM	A small step? Do you know just how dang hard it is to find the LGCS starting from the top of the D&D web page? Even knowing that it exists, the easiest way to find it is to do a search. When you didn't have a working search function, you could easily spend 30 minutes looking for it. The same problem exists if you're looking for information on the various regions. Hopefully, you'll remember to bookmark it for next time, when you find what you're looking for! If you do look at the main RPGA page, there's nothing there that a new player will understand... The whole D&D web site is poorly designed. The RPGA section is the worst. To say that the WotC pushed LG is a joke, in my opinion. Maybe when LG was starting. I wasn't a member at that time. Not saying that WotC doesn't do anything. But, what is contributed seems fairly minimal. From what I've seen, it's the players who've done the most to encourage and support LG. Yawn another blantent flame about how terrible everything is. Lets put this to the test. I've loaded the D&D website. I think I'll click on the RPGA button in the middled of the page. It changes the context window below it. I'll click on the Living Greyhawk link. At the Living Greyhawk website look theres a sidebar with a getting started doc and right below it is a link to the LGCS. Did that seem hard? I don't think so. Incidentally www.livinggreyhawk.com would have taken you to the same final page. Now for a counter example of how independent campings do it lets try to find Blackmoor's character creation doc. www.blackmoor.com is some French horse riding thing. lets try google. Castle Blackmoor sounds promising... nope seems to be about something else and hasn't been updated in a few years. Back to google a seach for Blackmoor D&D brings up what looks like a local RPGA group website... mabe they have the character creation doc for when they tried it out or a link. Humm.. their yahoo group requires moderator approval don't want to wait all day so I'll go elsewhere. Ah hah! wikipidea they know everything. And have a link what looks like the campaign! Says new players should go to "Stuff to Dowload" section and get the caracter creation guide. I'm alomst home! (but why wasn't that a link to the guide?) I think "Downloads" link is close enough. Click on Campaign Documents. Scroll way down. "Character Creation - Light" might work. I'd like to see the whole shebang but I don't see a Full option anywhere. I think its clear how much easier it is to play LG.
Ira_Dei 08-23-07, 01:00 PM	I just wanted to point out a little fact about the legal system in our country. We have this fun little procedure called a "trial". It's where two parties come to prove that their side of an argument is the valid one. Now, here's the fun part, it's not decided by the corporate lawyer who tries to scare everyone away from the concept of letting it go to this "kooky" little trial thing where they don't control the outcome. So just remember all the "legalese declarations", no matter how imperically they are stated, are only the poster's opinion and therefore are no more valid than any other poster's opinion. So you don't believe in Intellectual Property rights? Or the fact that corporate lawyers can pretty much force trial outcomes by wealth and size? Especially when they're up against people without the backing of Hasbro? You have been playing too much fantasy, dude. Live in the real world. D&D is just a game. Mark Dornan Belfast, Northern Ireland Master Level DM PS - Greyhawk is where i started Ad&D, the Realms did nothing for me. LG was fantastic, I got to come back. And I'll play LR with the same people who played LG with me, and have quite a lot of fun doing it. I hope you all have fun playing whatever games you do. Except Markjsb.
KarmaInferno 08-23-07, 01:02 PM	I just wanted to point out a little fact about the legal system in our country. We have this fun little procedure called a "trial". It's where two parties come to prove that their side of an argument is the valid one. Now, here's the fun part, it's not decided by the corporate lawyer who tries to scare everyone away from the concept of letting it go to this "kooky" little trial thing where they don't control the outcome. So just remember all the "legalese declarations", no matter how imperically they are stated, are only the poster's opinion and therefore are no more valid than any other poster's opinion.:) When one side has the weight of the law to support their position, and the other side does not, how do you think most trials go? In any case, often it does not even get to trial. I don't know about you, but if a corporation throws a lawsuit my way, I certainly don't have the money or time to answer the challenge. Trials are expensive. Which is why most end up either with the poorer side backing down, or in a settlement. -karma
markjsb 08-23-07, 01:32 PM	Wow. I must of "touched a nerve", judging by the aggressive and long winded opinions posted in counter point. As far as the "big, bad giant" coming to crush little old me goes, ever hear of a little thing called "a class action suit"? That's where a bunch of "little old me"s get together and pool their resources to hire their own "big, bad lawyer(s)".:) Have a super day.
Redfist 08-23-07, 01:36 PM	What are your "damages" for such a lawsuit? Good luck with that. Tell me how it goes. :D
markjsb 08-23-07, 01:42 PM	Whatever, my "big, bad lawyer(s)" can pull out of their books. Let's hear it for years and years of frivolous lawsuits, such a wealth of choices for "damages".;)
Redfist 08-23-07, 01:45 PM	Dude - reality check. A company stopped support for a FREE add-on for a HOBBY. At best, your damages are negative since you could potentially save money NOT going to conventions to play LG in 2009. I know you're upset w/ WoTC, but sheesh... rofl
KarmaInferno 08-23-07, 01:57 PM	As far as the "big, bad giant" coming to crush little old me goes, ever hear of a little thing called "a class action suit"? That's where a bunch of "little old me"s get together and pool their resources to hire their own "big, bad lawyer(s)".:) Have a super day. Good luck in getting one together. I predict you'll never do it, but good luck anyway. And I say that as someone who went through trying do do exactly was was proposed, independently continue running a WotC-owned Living Campaign after it was cancelled. I've spoken to lawyers on the exact subject. Have you? -karma
markjsb 08-23-07, 02:02 PM	Wait a minute. If this is all so trivial, why are certain posters going out of their way to try and intimadate other posters from even mentioning that they would like to organize a WOTC/RPGA-free continuation of LG?:confused: My real point here is, I don't tolerate bullies. I think everyone knows that this idiotic decision by WOTC was going to generate a Hellstorm of outrage from the players. The most intelligent thing to do would have been to let us have our rants and keep your poison pens in your pockets until everyone had calmed down.:waits: Apparently, that level of reasoning is beyond some people.:rolleyes:
Redfist 08-23-07, 02:04 PM	Ok - so you want a few days to whine and stomp your feet while holding your breath and yelling "IT'S NOT FAIR". Got it. Thanks for admitting that and letting us know. I won't interrupt you any further.
KarmaInferno 08-23-07, 02:04 PM	I'm mostly talking about it because I went through it, and would rather spare others the heartbreak and difficulty of trying the same futile track. WotC holds all the legal cards. Period. -karma
ankhwearer 08-23-07, 02:08 PM	I just wanted to point out a little fact about the legal system in our country. We have this fun little procedure called a "trial". Trials are used in Criminal Law. In fact, Trials are used where the two parties refuse to come to some sort of agreement ("your guilty!", "no I'm not!") By far most civil cases are determined by litigation and negotiation. The wait to get into a court to try a case is a year or more, all the while sitting on a desist order from the judge that prevents you from doing the questionable activity until the trial is completed. That is what is promised by these legal "threats". One year of waiting to get into trial for running a faux Living Greyhawk, meanwhile being prevented from running it by court order, is just as sure to kill the homebrew as losing the trial. The cease-and-desist letter from the lawyers just gives you a chance to stop before they force you to spend money on lawyers in preparation for a lawsuit. It's a requirement as well, before they move into a trail, since they will not issue a court date without all of the procedures being followed.
markjsb 08-23-07, 02:13 PM	So that would all apply to WOTC also, if said class action counter suit was brought.:D Your next point of order?
Istaran 08-23-07, 02:33 PM	So that would all apply to WOTC also, if said class action counter suit was brought.:D Your next point of order? What claim would you make that you hold the rights to their IP and can force them to desist? Judges aren't mindless automatons, they will require you to convince them you have a case that WotC needs to stop using your IP before they will issue the order to WotC to desist. You have no such case, because WotC owns the IP. Whereas going the other way, WotC does have a case because WotC owns the IP. Simply making an unfounded allegation doesn't get you anywhere. You need to back it up. And what would you accomplish if you did succeed? Stopping the RPGA for a year or more? If you manage that, can we all file a class action suit against you for taking our fun away? Many of us would like to actually play something else once LG is gone.
control freak 08-23-07, 02:51 PM	you know if you HATE 4e so much just boycott it, and get others to do so, personaly i probably will not because sadly, i would like to actualy play DnD (perferably 3.5.. but i dk if ill have a choice) a wide scail boycott would show up as a pebble in WoTCs pond a HUGE one might tick them off but thats about the extent of it
markjsb 08-23-07, 03:37 PM	What claim would you make that you hold the rights to their IP and can force them to desist? Judges aren't mindless automatons, they will require you to convince them you have a case that WotC needs to stop using your IP before they will issue the order to WotC to desist. You have no such case, because WotC owns the IP. Whereas going the other way, WotC does have a case because WotC owns the IP. Simply making an unfounded allegation doesn't get you anywhere. You need to back it up. And what would you accomplish if you did succeed? Stopping the RPGA for a year or more? If you manage that, can we all file a class action suit against you for taking our fun away? Many of us would like to actually play something else once LG is gone. First, see earlier post in regards to frivolous lawsuits and a wealth of possiblities for the basis of a class action counter suit that would result in "tying" WOTC up just as much as the members of the class action counter suit. Secondly, I actually agree that any serious talk of legal actions could result in everyone getting cheated out of any organized D&D play and therefore this thread should be closed before someone gets it into their head to really go for it.
Some_call_me_Tim 08-23-07, 04:13 PM	Now for a counter example of how independent campings do it lets try to find Blackmoor's character creation doc.Check out http://www.dablackmoor.com for information about Blackmoor. A better example might be Living Arcanis a formerly RPGA authorized campaign. http://www.livingarcanis.com Member run campaigns aren't a problem, it just won't be Living Greyhawk.
Istaran 08-23-07, 05:30 PM	Starmage Prophecies is another example, in that they set a precedent for allowing in characters from an ended campaign into a new campaign. If you can make a compelling enough basis for your campaign and form a good enough pool of administrators and contributing authors for your campaign without violating the legal conditions, then by all means go forth and prosper. Maybe start by forming a yahoo group and inviting in anyone interested in volunteering to make it happen? The tricky part will be coming up with a compelling basis for your campaign that will be appealing to significant numbers of LG players and their characters without being set in the copyrighted/trademarked locations.
scon40 08-23-07, 10:48 PM	My real point here is, I don't tolerate bullies.The most intelligent thing to do would have been to let us have our rants and keep your poison pens in your pockets until everyone had calmed down.Apparently, that level of reasoning is beyond some people. Strangely, what I see is someone who is screaming about their right to free speech while demanding others give up theirs. If you want to argue your point on a public list, you should expect others to disagree with you and post that disagreement. But apparently that level of reasoning is beyond some people. :P
Halworth 08-23-07, 11:22 PM	Okay I'm back.(I had my cooling off period) I was upset about the death of LG and favorites characters. But really guys trying to hold on to LG would take more time, energy and money than I have ever put INTO LG, and I'm sure it would not be nearly as fun. That being said I'm ready for 4th ed, hell I'm excited because really--- it's about the people you game with. So yeah I'm gonna play 4th ed, but I'm going to enjoy 3.5 while it lasts. The 4th ed boards are up so I don't know if I'll back on these boards too much in the next couple of months. Oh yeah, to answer my own Question. Open Rebellion? No..., no I don't think so. All that time, energy and money could be much better spent gaming, in 4th ed. C-ya 'round.
RLWilde 08-24-07, 01:55 AM	I don't think Rebellion is mentioned in the LGCS. It is NONC and you must have campaign documentation to rebel.
Istaran 08-24-07, 03:53 AM	I've just got me a new signature.
Sassey 08-24-07, 02:06 PM	RE: Heroes of Ribhus, Legends of the Shining Jewel, Starmage Prophecies, Fellowship of the White Star, etc. (Witchhunter) Good to hear. None, as predicted, haven't reached the far realms of Nordic countries. At least I haven't heard of any. :P I know that at least three of those campaigns (ones I play) would be happy to have modules run anywhere there is interest. Check the websites and/or join their fansites and have your local game day/convention contact them for modules. Heck, most are available for home campaign order as well. At least one of them has a player in the Netherlands who wants to write modules and host events there. /cheers
markjsb 08-24-07, 11:06 PM	Strangely, what I see is someone who is screaming about their right to free speech while demanding others give up theirs. If you want to argue your point on a public list, you should expect others to disagree with you and post that disagreement. But apparently that level of reasoning is beyond some people. :P Strangely, I'm not the least bit surprised that this would be your position. If you feel you need to continue this "chest-beating" session, go right ahead. I couldn't care less.:P Goodbye and good luck in all your future endeavors.
dkay807 08-25-07, 12:18 AM	Win/win for us. We get to play or WotC craps on their base with legal action and destroys themselves. We'll pick up the pieces on the cheap. These comments are so asinine. What I'm going to say doesn't just go for this post, but for many of the negative posts I'm seeing. I can't believe people sometimes. WotC (Hasbro) is facilitating your pursuit of your hobby. The table-top gaming industry is not a particularly lucrative industry and I can guarantee you that at least 95% of the WotC employees are doing what they do because they truly believe in it and love what they are doing. Yes, Hasbro is a publicly traded company and must be profitable in order to survive - welcome to capitalism. We should all be doing whatever we can to ensure that that happens so that we can continue doing what we love. I'll tell you what a win/win situation is - WotC takes a chance and announces some major changes and probably increases its revenue in the meantime, while we, the consumers, have a chance to take part in and enjoy what WILL be the largest Living Campaign to date and will have a chance to truly impact the stories many enjoy. We are positioned well to learn from what could have been improved with LG and make this new campaign even better. We have the chance to fully support this campaign and bring in the FR fan-base and have more players to meet and play with. Increased demand will in turn increase supply, giving us MORE play opportunities. And guess what? Some number of years after next, 5e will be announced, and the end of LFR will be announced, and the Living Campaign will evolve into something even better so that our children can continue to enjoy our beloved hobby. Rather than chastize the company that is making this all possible, I urge you to support it in any way you can - even if it means nothing more than simply enjoying the game.
LGMoses 08-25-07, 12:32 AM	dkay807 is right and I give his post my stamp of approval. :w00t: Lets enjoy LG and this huge change in the hobby and then make Living Forgotten Realms into OUR setting. The future novels about Forgotten Realms: they won't be about Elminster or Drizzt, they'll be about US.
opa 08-25-07, 02:28 AM	Man I agree with you again...whats the world coming to....
Beowulfe 08-25-07, 03:01 AM	What I find humorous about all these proposals by people to continue LG on their own is that all include "we'll change enough of LG so that it does not infringe on WotC". But in doing that, aren't you defeating the purpose which was to continue the campaign in the campaign world? At that point, you are starting a new campaign, in a new campaign world. The only thing that would be the same would be your characters minus any Greyhawk specific items. So the question I have, what is the point? I see two choices, either invest all this time and energy into the new WotC sponsored campaign or start a new campaign based on a home brewed world (unless you can find a third party company that will allow you to use theirs). And if you are going to start a new campaign, why not pour that energy into one of the existing groups that have an ongoing game. The single thing that I see most people want is to be able to keep their characters and keep playing them.
dkay807 08-25-07, 10:45 AM	dkay807 is right and I give his post my stamp of approval. :w00t: Lets enjoy LG and this huge change in the hobby and then make Living Forgotten Realms into OUR setting. The future novels about Forgotten Realms: they won't be about Elminster or Drizzt, they'll be about US. Thanks for the support but you're still not getting Rashemen ;)
Genghis Cohen 08-25-07, 02:49 PM	...Rather than chastize the company that is making this all possible, I urge you to support it in any way you can - even if it means nothing more than simply enjoying the game.Do you mean the same company that consistently produces poorly edited products? Are you referring to the same company that terminates its largest community of devoted customers with no explanation of substance? Is this the same company that publicly rationalizes business decisions with sales metrics that are old enough to vote? WotC wants us to be passionate about this game so that we'll buy their products, and then they are perplexed when negative emotions emerge from their dictatorial approach to customer interaction. The worst thing that anyone can do is to remain silent. WotC is effectively a monopoly, and they act like it. They operate with little accountability. Acting like a lemming will not cause them to respond to customer needs.
LGMoses 08-26-07, 12:13 AM	Thanks for the support but you're still not getting Rashemen ;) :incog: I don't know what you're talking about. Although I'm going to terribly miss Living Greyhawk, I'm very excited to be getting in on the ground floor of this new campaign with a new system. This is a great opportunity to make something really really good.
Evanta 08-26-07, 09:19 PM	just wondering, will appealing to WOTC for permission to run a volunteer-based Living Greyhawk work?
dkay807 08-26-07, 10:06 PM	just wondering, will appealing to WOTC for permission to run a volunteer-based Living Greyhawk work? Considering the fact that a "volunteer-based Living Greyhawk" would be in direct competition with Living Forgottem Realms... I doubt it. Furthermore, Living Greyhawk is already volunteer-based ;)
kenobi65 08-27-07, 12:15 AM	just wondering, will appealing to WOTC for permission to run a volunteer-based Living Greyhawk work? One could certainly ask, but I would strongly suspect the answer would be "no". Even beyond dkay807's note about it being competition for LFR, you'd also be asking WotC to let a group that's not directly (or even indirectly) controlled by WotC run a campaign that uses (and, implicitly, builds upon) WotC-owned IP, in Greyhawk. When WotC realized that Legends of the Shining Jewel was using WotC IP (the Realms) to run their campaign, letting LSJ continue to use that IP, as an independent campaign, was never an option. They allowed LSJ to make a proposal to become an RPGA campaign (a proposal that was rejected); the only remaining option that kept LSJ going was to take the WotC IP (i.e., all the Realms content) out of the campaign.
Evanta 08-27-07, 12:45 AM	Which kinda begs the question, since WOTC is no longer supporting Greyhawk and it is being discontinued, why are they still so **** about it? And besides, such a organisation would give free promotion of WOTC (4.0 core + build books) products. Oh well. Guess I'm not in business for a reason. :P One could certainly ask, but I would strongly suspect the answer would be "no". Even beyond dkay807's note about it being competition for LFR, you'd also be asking WotC to let a group that's not directly (or even indirectly) controlled by WotC run a campaign that uses (and, implicitly, builds upon) WotC-owned IP, in Greyhawk. When WotC realized that Legends of the Shining Jewel was using WotC IP (the Realms) to run their campaign, letting LSJ continue to use that IP, as an independent campaign, was never an option. They allowed LSJ to make a proposal to become an RPGA campaign (a proposal that was rejected); the only remaining option that kept LSJ going was to take the WotC IP (i.e., all the Realms content) out of the campaign.
KarmaInferno 08-27-07, 01:33 AM	Because it's their property. Not anyone's else's. It's up to them if they want to license it out to a third party or not. If you're talking about why would they go after someone who's using their trademarks without their permission, THAT is because of the way the trademark laws work. If you don't actively defend your trademarks against unauthorized use in the US, you actually stand a chance of losing ownership of them. -karma
kenobi65 08-27-07, 09:29 AM	What Karma said. In addition, just because WotC will no longer be using Greyhawk material today doesn't mean that they may not choose to use it at some time in the future. Protecting that IP lets them do that, if they so choose.
Wavester 08-27-07, 10:15 AM	What Karma said. In addition, just because WotC will no longer be using Greyhawk material today doesn't mean that they may not choose to use it at some time in the future. Protecting that IP lets them do that, if they so choose. and not only is it protecting their IP it's protecting the name and value of that IP. They would not want somebody taking Greyhawk and going totally nuts with it and damaging what to them is a solid name and IP. So from their stand point they would only want to license it to a solid company with a solid reputation to make sure what was done with it was up to their standards and goals. It would also have to generate enough money for them to think that the risk vs. reward was worth it. This is not just a Wotc thing but something every company does. Same thing happens with radio DJ's that generate controversy. It brings viewers but could also change viewers perceptoins of your product promoting it. There are a lot of things like this that go into these decisions that most people don't think of. Dave C