Post/Author/DateTime	Post
King Kashue 06-07-07, 04:11 PM	Right now, our group is trying to figure out who's bringing what. We've got: Tank 6 BDF 5 Cleric 5 Those are absolutely set. Then it's either: Cleric 6 or Ftr5/Rog2 Cleric 6 or Barb 5 Cleric 6 or MT (Druid/Wiz) 7, but he can't play all 5 parts due to TUs. Arcane is short no matter what (thought the MT player's Cleric has travel/trickery). Basically, I'm wondering from the people who've played it, is four clerics a death trap due to lack of balance? Obviously it will slow us down in terms of damage dealing (and help with damage taking), but would it be important to have the MT in parts 2-5, should the lower level barb, or the ftr/rog come, etc. I don't want any spoilers of any sort, but rather just some advice regarding party make up. Thanks.
UMiskatonic 06-07-07, 04:36 PM	Well, it's not hard to build a damage dealing cleric. I'd go with the four clerics myself, play the characters you want to play, and have fun with them. You can build a cleric evoker, just take the right feats. No reason you can't empower a produce flame, or a searing light. Likewise, there's no rule that says a cleric can't take power attack and have an 18 STR. --------------------------------------------------------------------- It sounds like these clerics are already built, so I don't really know how many changes you can make. However, spell selection will give you a LOT of versatility. Grab more of the arcane type spells, and you'll get by. Ex) No see invisibility? Buy a scroll of invisibility purge. Ex) No fireball? Searing light 'em instead. Playing with clerics and fighters is perfectly good, it's just a slower slog than the 'end this encounter with a single spell' tricks that arcanists sometimes pull out. So be patient, and just keep swinging. You'll have trouble with traps, and you'll miss stuff because your search abilities are crap. Try to set off traps with summoned creatures, and use spells like detect secret doors when you can. You'll probably all need to aid someone in order to find clues, and even then, you'll miss a few. Unfortunately, I don't think two levels of rogue will make a big difference. If this character has a decent search, then buff spells and aiding another might be a good idea. If this is more of a fighter with evasion, then I wouldn't even bother.
solbergb 06-07-07, 04:47 PM	you've got a BDF and a tank already. You'll be fine with the rest being clerics, and it doesn't matter what kind of cleric. You will want to coordinate your spell selection. I've not played RHOD, but I DID play a large number of LG modules with 3-4 clerics in the APL4-8 range with my monk and a random melee type (sometimes effective, sometimes not) as the other character. None of the clerics in that mix were melee clerics, two weren't even the kind who had armor class or hitpoints (10 constitution, light armor, played more like arcanists than Jozan). Since you lack arcane, you will merely have to rack a few of the excellent mid level cleric spells to compensate (calm emotions for a will save stopper, sound burst for a fort save stopper, invis purge and blindness to simulate glitterdust perhaps, swarms of spiritual weapons to simulate magic missiles. Clerics even have a kind of fireball spell in Energy Vortex, although it is a little trickier to pull off) Silence is a decent substitute for invisibility - many times I'd rather have that than invis, and a magic or trickery domain cleric could of course fix that. you won't be able to "fly" until 7th level when air walk becomes an option, but most arcanists can't spare slots for fly until level 7 anyway...and that assumes none of your four clerics has travel domain.
amnuxoll 06-07-07, 04:51 PM	(FWIW, I'm at a loss to draw any real difference between "BDF" and "Tank".) It doesn't really matter whether you're playing RHoD or any other mod: the fact that you've got lots of beef and lots of healing is a good thing but your lack of arcane is going to hurt you, no question. Is it a death trap? Maybe. I can think of some encounters where we really would have liked to have had more beef but we managed to muddle through. I can think of a roughly equal number of instances where having multiple arcanes in our party (one wizard, one mystic theurge) saved our bacon. You'll be gaining about 4 levels during the course of the mod. Are you sure someone in your group wouldn't be willing to at least try for the Spellsword pclass? I also recommend you take a long hard look at the ranged attack ability of your party. Allow me to quote the blurb for RHoD: Rampaging hobgoblins and their allies threaten to destroy the realm and all who stand before them. Characters who dare confront the horde soon discover that these particular hobgoblins worship Tiamat, the evil queen of dragons, and eventually come face-to-face with her draconic minions. Therefore, I don't think it's a spoiler to tell you that you can expect to face off against a dragon at at least one point in this mod. Dragons have these things attached to their backs called "wings". I'll let you puzzle out the rest. ;) :AMN:
solbergb 06-07-07, 05:01 PM	BDF is focused on damage. Tank is focused on armor class. The BDF can usually stand in battle a little longer than a "light infantry" type but may not be as mobile. A tank will dish out meaningful damage, unlike a "cork." These fine distinctions are important :) Most light infantry are closer to BDF than tank, and most heavy infantry are closer to tank than "cork". But there is a gradient of damage, a gradient of toughness and a gradient of mobilty that isnt' easily expressed in the usual "heavy" and "light" infantry categories. You'll need ranged offense. Mid level clerics do that pretty well, at least out to medium range, if they rack the right spells. Many a flying monster at APL6 fell to the "swarm of spiritual weapon" assault. Encounters were made trivial by calm emotions rather than glitterdust. Seriously. I played with NO arcane from level 1-8 with my monk, except two adventures where we had someone mutted to a level or two. I did those levels without glitterdust, haste, fly, fireball or magic missile on the team. It can work out just fine, but only if some of the clerics rack spells to fill the arcanist role as best they can. Luckily, all clerics have all spells, and there are pretty good substitutes out there, especially if two clerics can cover the work and make up in volume what one arcanist might have done with "just the right spell"
Jesse Heinig 06-07-07, 05:06 PM	Remember also that this is an adapted semi-campaign adventure, not a typical RPGA mod, so it wouldn't hurt to have a Diplomacy monkey and some good Knowledge skills. You may be using skills that come up a little less frequently in the "four fights and a barmaid" format.
solbergb 06-07-07, 05:10 PM	Yeah, well, my 3 cleric parties had two knowledge domain priests and one diplomat....the fourth cleric was usually some soulless nonhuman heathen or other. Who says Pholtans are annoying :) He has terrific domains and his clerics are usually pretty charismatic.... Actually the funny thing was the human clerics who joined us who weren't Pholtan. "My spiritual quarterstaff smites the air elemental" "MY spiritual staff smashes the air elemental" "My spiritual quarterstaff swings at the air elemental" "My spiritual longsword...." (everyone glares at the Heironean visiting from Nyrond) I always thought it would be fun to play a cleric of that baklunish hero-god of humility (a quarterstaff god) in the Pale, just letting people assume he was Pholtan without ever picking spells that display holy symbols but leading with the spiritual quarterstaff early....
King Kashue 06-07-07, 05:30 PM	Lots of good stuff, that's for the insights. Some specific replies clarifications: It sounds like these clerics are already built, so I don't really know how many changes you can make. Well, they are all 5th or 6th level, so yes, they're already built :P you won't be able to "fly" until 7th level when air walk becomes an option, but most arcanists can't spare slots for fly until level 7 anyway...and that assumes none of your four clerics has travel domain. One of them does, as noted. (FWIW, I'm at a loss to draw any real difference between "BDF" and "Tank".) AC + enough damage to keep the bad guy's attention = tank Pantloads of damage (usually 2h) = BDF AC + not enough damage to keep the bad guy's attention = cork. At least how I use the terms. Remember also that this is an adapted semi-campaign adventure, not a typical RPGA mod, so it wouldn't hurt to have a Diplomacy monkey and some good Knowledge skills. You may be using skills that come up a little less frequently in the "four fights and a barmaid" format. The Tank is a pally, so I've got diplomacy covered. As for knowledge skills, the Paladin has arcane, the clerics will obviously have religion...and um...yeah... Who says Pholtans are annoying :) Pretty much everyone who doesn't live in the Bay area ;)
UMiskatonic 06-07-07, 06:41 PM	You may want to look at the retraining rules. It's only three feats to be a good archer. A 5th level cleric could retrain an existing feat, and take a level of fighter at 6th level. This would give you point blank, precise, and rapid shot very quickly. An archer who can cast resist energy and freedom of movement can do pretty well vs. dragons.
King Kashue 06-07-07, 07:05 PM	You may want to look at the retraining rules. It's only three feats to be a good archer. A 5th level cleric could retrain an existing feat, and take a level of fighter at 6th level. This would give you point blank, precise, and rapid shot very quickly. An archer who can cast resist energy and freedom of movement can do pretty well vs. dragons. If they're built with a 10 dex, it really ain't gonna work. :D
mowaca 06-07-07, 07:53 PM	Remember also that this is an adapted semi-campaign adventure, not a typical RPGA mod, so it wouldn't hurt to have a Diplomacy monkey and some good Knowledge skills. You may be using skills that come up a little less frequently in the "four fights and a barmaid" format. I'll second that, its definitely not a typical LG adventure, and there's a lot of loot too. I think you'll be ok with 3 or 4 clerics...almost as good as 4 druids in the party.
HNgo 06-07-07, 08:10 PM	Seems like a decent party to me though as others said you may wish you had more search, arcane, and knowledge abilities from time to time. Our party on the other hand has almost no divine magic and we've been flying by the seats of our pants without any healing other then a combat bard, a single dip cleric, and loads of healing potions. Our party in contrast after completing part 3 6/2 Centaur/monk Grappling tank 8 Master Thrower/Trap finder 7 Wizard 8 Occult Slayer/Shock trooping-combat brute BDF 7 Combat Bard/diplomat 7 Tripping Gish As of part 3 we have not had a single death yet though we have had a number of close calls. Our goal has been to end the combats within 2-3 rounds and/or control the field via tripping/grappling before damage control is needed. So all in all, just don't commit any major tactical errors and I believe your table should be fine. Just make sure you have some form of ranged attacks as somebody else pointed out you 'may' be fighting some winged things. Also keep in mind that as an adaptable you may be forced into situations where you may not have time to rest. Cheers
Gelth 06-08-07, 02:53 PM	My party is just about to finish part 2, and we've got two straight Clerics, an area-denial fighter, a fighter/sorcerer, an illusionist, and my Centaur. The best trick we've pulled off so far was casting Fly on my character so that I can carry the rest of the party at once, which comes in really handy. We've had one death (me, from 6th to 5th in part 1) due to lack of hitpoints as well as lack of rolling over 12 on 5+ attacks in a row, as well as poor tactics. Besides that we've had some slogs but also some really good wins, and we're mostly missing skills, which may bite us later. All in all, great fun with a good table. Really, the players are more important than the character mix, most parties can compensate for their weaknesses if they are aware of them. --Penn
solbergb 06-08-07, 03:00 PM	Really, the players are more important than the character mix, --Penn in more reasons than one. If the other players annoy you, you're stuck with them for a while. Just like in a home campaign. I've heard at least one RHOD table break up halfway through due to player issues.
solbergb 06-08-07, 03:01 PM	and my Centaur. We've had one death (me, from 6th to 5th in part 1) --Penn wow, what's that like? You die and you become adolescent again (shrinking from size large to medium) kind of deflating....
bitznarf 06-08-07, 03:09 PM	Thats one of the things I find the funniest about the D&D ruleset: if you hit a centaur hard enough, it can shrink.
Gelth 06-08-07, 03:20 PM	I basically equated it to general weakness and loss of confidence. After all, Centaurs don't necessarily gain height or weight when they become Large, because all characters have to fall inside their racial guidelines and there's not separate ones for Medium centaurs. Luckiny, I gained it back after not too long a time, and have no intention of going through that again. --Penn
Howie23 06-08-07, 03:36 PM	Thats one of the things I find the funniest about the D&D ruleset: if you hit a centaur hard enough, it can shrink. You're never gonna give me credit for that, are you? ;) David
bitznarf 06-08-07, 04:08 PM	Well, if you want I can start adding it in a quote :P I just don't feel like digging up the origional post each time. Perhaps it will look like this then:if you hit a centaur hard enough, it can shrink;)
Howie23 06-08-07, 04:13 PM	Well, if you want I can start adding it in a quote :P I just don't feel like digging up the origional post each time. Perhaps it will look like this then:;) Nah, Dale, I'm just giving you a hard time. I'm inappropriately pround of that line. :) David
bitznarf 06-08-07, 04:17 PM	Its a dam good line. :)
KShaver 06-08-07, 05:06 PM	Basically, I'm wondering from the people who've played it, is four clerics a death trap due to lack of balance? Obviously it will slow us down in terms of damage dealing (and help with damage taking), but would it be important to have the MT in parts 2-5, should the lower level barb, or the ftr/rog come, etc. Taking it slow is doable. We're 3/5 through it and definately not a high damage party. Just make sure you make decent combat decisons and use your resources appropriately. The only thing were having trouble with in longer combats is the lack of a 2nd body that can tank, but you've got that covered.
King Kashue 06-08-07, 07:28 PM	in more reasons than one. If the other players annoy you, you're stuck with them for a while. Just like in a home campaign. I've heard at least one RHOD table break up halfway through due to player issues. We're set there... For normal mods, you need to make tables, but for the adapted mods, I'm an elitist dick. I don't want anyone at the table to have an issue with anyone else. They're too well written and too special to bother with a potential fun-killer.
Alpha_Nerd 06-08-07, 11:59 PM	Our party is in the middle of part 3 right now and our table makeup is Scout 5/Barbarian 2/Occult Slayer 1 Wizard 7 Wizard 7 Sorcerer 6 Cleric 8 Cleric 7 Needless to say, we're having fun.
Jesse Heinig 06-09-07, 09:01 AM	My current party is: Ranger/Barbarian/Wildrunner (not sure of the specific levels) 7 Cleric 6/Radiant Servant 1 Wizard 6 Scout 3/Rogue 3 Fighter/Barbarian/Occult Slayer (again not sure of specific levels) 7 We've been really struggling through it and have had some extremely close points and some bad losses. I suspect that we will lose the overall campaign because we can't score enough decisive victories.
Reska 06-09-07, 09:27 AM	Our current party consists of Wasteland Druid/Beastmaster (9th level) + Dire Tortoise <--Main Tank Druid/Sorc/Arcane Heirophant (7th or 8th level) <--Auxillary Healer Druid 5 <--Summoner Warmage/Rogue/Marshal (9th level) <--Arcane Catapault Sorc X/Mindbender (7th or 8th) <--Diplomacy/Intimidation but not usually Hexblade/Rogue/Fighter (8th) <--Secondary tank That said, I've found that while we end up in close battles, we're very rarely ever in true fear for our lives. It's still fun, and the battles are epic....we just seem to ease our way through that much more.
magebeast 06-09-07, 10:59 AM	Our party is in the middle of part 3 right now and our table makeup is Scout 5/Barbarian 2/Occult Slayer 1 Wizard 7 Wizard 7 Sorcerer 6 Cleric 8 Cleric 7 Needless to say, we're having fun. The 30+ round combat was only fun AFTER we'd survived it.
KShaver 06-11-07, 07:45 AM	Just finished the mod and one thing stuck out as very important. Make sure the level 5 characters are several mods worth of xp into thier level before starting. This will give them an extra level going into several of the sections, particularly the finale. Of course deaths could negate this advantage, but if they do survive it will help quite a bit.
King Kashue 06-11-07, 11:17 AM	Just finished the mod and one thing stuck out as very important. Make sure the level 5 characters are several mods worth of xp into thier level before starting. This will give them an extra level going into several of the sections, particularly the finale. Of course deaths could negate this advantage, but if they do survive it will help quite a bit. Yeah, that's one thing we've been warned about. If a character is a brand new 5, they fall behind the curve at some point and get half xp for later parts. We're all fine on that...
solbergb 06-11-07, 02:25 PM	Our party is in the middle of part 3 right now and our table makeup is Scout 5/Barbarian 2/Occult Slayer 1 Wizard 7 Wizard 7 Sorcerer 6 Cleric 8 Cleric 7 Needless to say, we're having fun. Ok...one of these things is not like the other.... one of these things is special in its own way.... (so when is the Occult Slayer going to volunteer for watch and slaughter the other 5 party members in their sleep heh)
solbergb 06-11-07, 02:28 PM	Yeah, that's one thing we've been warned about. If a character is a brand new 5, they fall behind the curve at some point and get half xp for later parts. We're all fine on that... Yeah...my character has like 10005 experience points. She'll be a level behind for the the first four rounds and 2 levels behind for the final round. We've got a party of 5s and 6s, and I fully expect to be asked to swap in my level 11 sorcereress for the final round (and I'm ok with that).
KShaver 06-11-07, 02:31 PM	Yeah, that's one thing we've been warned about. If a character is a brand new 5, they fall behind the curve at some point and get half xp for later parts. Our 5s stayed high enough to get full xp, they just didn't level at some usefull points, then gained enough to get 2 levels at the finale. Still working out how that is supposed to be handled.
magebeast 06-11-07, 08:36 PM	Yeah...my character has like 10005 experience points. She'll be a level behind for the the first four rounds and 2 levels behind for the final round. We've got a party of 5s and 6s, and I fully expect to be asked to swap in my level 11 sorcereress for the final round (and I'm ok with that). Can you do that?
copper_wyrmling 06-11-07, 09:02 PM	Yeah...my character has like 10005 experience points. She'll be a level behind for the the first four rounds and 2 levels behind for the final round. We've got a party of 5s and 6s, and I fully expect to be asked to swap in my level 11 sorcereress for the final round (and I'm ok with that). My PC actually played the first part at L4, then played some other scenarios in between parts to get up to the recommended level. Of course, that doesn't work if you need to borrow TUs from next year, and is a bit risky in any case.
KShaver 06-11-07, 09:45 PM	Can you do that? Ultimately the only disadvatages to switching characters mid-mod is that you can't borrow TUs (which shouldn't be a problem), and that some AR rewards are based on playing all or most of the module. Also note if you play one of the later parts, you can never go back and play an earlier one you skipped.
solbergb 06-11-07, 09:59 PM	My PC actually played the first part at L4, then played some other scenarios in between parts to get up to the recommended level. Of course, that doesn't work if you need to borrow TUs from next year, and is a bit risky in any case. yeah, well, I used every single TU I had other than the RHOD TU's to get to that "just barely" 10K experience. I can legally play all 5 rounds, borrowing 15 TU's from next year for the final round, but the odds are, with the party I have, they'd rather have a L11 sorc and perhaps L9 bard at the table instead of a L7 pouncekitty. I can't justify bringing in Olivia earlier, she's way too powerful and is only allowed in parts 4-5 anyway. I think my char will do ok in the earlier rounds though. She brings a lot of stuff the rest of the party doesn't do.