Optized Spell Selection Trends in L.G. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Optized Spell Selection Trends in L.G. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Craig C.
05-26-06, 09:43 PM Hi Everybody,

I just joined the RPGA and will soon be playing a wizard build in an upcoming Living Greyhawk game. Having played numerous optimized wizards since 3.5, I'm looking forward to seeing how different optimized wizards are in L.G. compared to typical games at my local Gaming Store.

My biggest curiosity is finding what spells are considered to be overpowered, mandatory, multi-versatile, and/or candidates for banning. Specifically, wizard/sorceror spells. The "candidates for banning" criteria sounds especially interesting because I'm sure there are some hot debates on certain spells and their purpoted effects on dominating the game.

It's not that I want to use/abuse them, I'm just more interest in comparative analytics in using said spells in and out of Living Greyhawk.

Thanks for your time and input!

Craig C.
Mommy was an Orc
05-27-06, 12:35 AM You might want to check out this yahoo group:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/lgwizards
Craig C.
05-27-06, 07:52 PM Thank you, Mommy was an Orc. I just joined that Yahoo group (and got accepted). Already I've read some good threads on certain banned/restricted spells.

As far as this thread goes - anybody have any other wizard/sorceror spells worth discussing or debating? thanks!
JohnduBois
05-27-06, 08:30 PM I apologize to Andrew Nuxoll in advance for the content of this post.

In my opinion, the single best 1st-level spell in the game is Grease, and no bard, wizard or sorceror should be without it. My bard is currently 10th level and uses the spell to some extent in every adventure. Apart from the spell's obvious effect (making enemies fall down or drop their stuff), here are some effective things that Grease can do (offering NO save and NO SR):

1. Ready an action to stop a charge. Even if that charging, raging barbarian makes his save, he still HAS to stop charging the second he's in a greased area - even if it shows up underneath him.
2. Helping a friend escape a grapple. While not as good as Freedom of Movement, that +10 to escape often tips the scales. Plus, Grease doesn't require touch, wizards don't get FoM anyway, and your 1st-level slots aren't nearly as precious as your 4th-level slots. Save your Dim Door for when YOU get in trouble...
3. An enemy in a greased area can never take a 5-ft step. Ever. It saves the party from SO MANY full attacks when used correctly, it's insane.

That's the kind of stuff that can be useful from level 1 to level 15, and it gets under-utilized, IMO.
Lomiat
05-27-06, 11:20 PM Which spells prove effective also varies quite a bit from level to level and, as one would expect, from mod to mod.

As a low-level PC, it's hard to beat: Grease, Color Spray, Sleep, Charm Person, Cause Fear, Enlarge Person, Chill Touch (a wizard's ability to "turn" undead), Invisibility, Glitterdust, See Invisibility, False Life, and Command Undead.

I think you hit mid-levels once you start casting 3rd level spells: Haste, Slow, Fly, Fireball, Suggestion, Halt Undead, Dimension Door, Evard's Black Tentacles, Dragon Breath, Stoneshape, Rainbow Pattern, Confusion, Hold Monster, Teleport, Wall of Force, and Overland Flight.

If you can find access, Assay Resistance is ESSENTIAL.

I haven't had the opportunity, yet, to test out too many 6th-level spells (or higher), but I'll shortly see how well it works to toss out Repulsion now and again.
Book
05-28-06, 12:44 PM What spells are you seeing in the newer books (Spell Compendium, PHB-II, "Races of" sourcebooks) that are gaining popularity?
Tungar
05-29-06, 08:13 AM You may charge through a grease, it's a DC 15 balance check (read balance). Personnally, I allow it.

Mirror image is a very powerfull spell too. Because it prevents equally from attacks and from targeted spells.
blood_kite
05-29-06, 12:52 PM You may charge through a grease, it's a DC 15 balance check (read balance). Personnally, I allow it.

I was about to disagree with you until I looked over the Balance skill rules again. I always thought of a grease area as difficult terrain, but I found nothing in the spell description to confirm this since the half movement penalty is from balancing. For most NPC's trying to charge through a greased area is about the same as trying to trip themselves.

Could you attempt to jump over the greased area as part of a charge?
Tungar
05-29-06, 01:06 PM Rules are not clear, or I haven't found a clear rule. I think it's up to the DM.
Personnally, I will allow it, because jumping doesn't diminish your movement.
Arvagor
05-29-06, 01:28 PM The answer is "yes, you can" (i.e., jump during the charge). This was clarified in the FAQ well over a year ago (first appearance was the 1/28/05 version), and currently appears on page 42 of the 5/24/06 version.
Lomiat
05-29-06, 06:26 PM What spells are you seeing in the newer books (Spell Compendium, PHB-II, "Races of" sourcebooks) that are gaining popularity?

I assume you're asking about arcane spells, since that's where this thread started:

Orbs of [Energy], Lesser Orbs of [Energy], Familiar Pocket, Shadow Binding, Assay Resistance, Dragon Breath, Prismatic Ray, Reciprocal Gyre, Anticipate Teleport, Fires of Purity.

Off the top of my head, those are the ones I've seen used to good effect.
Cynric
05-29-06, 10:08 PM Personally, I can agree with anticipate teleport. I have never played an arcane caster, but I have run a high level module where this particular spell really handed the players a huge advantage. Almost everything was teleporting in and subsequently was seriously smashed when it did come in.
ithardin
05-31-06, 04:41 PM Glitterdust. When I see wizards from levels 3 to 12 casting it first in almost every combat, that tells me something :)
amnuxoll
06-01-06, 03:35 PM Curse your and your foul machinations, du Bois! ;)
qstor
06-02-06, 09:53 AM Hi Everybody,

I just joined the RPGA and will soon be playing a wizard build in an upcoming Living Greyhawk game. Having played numerous optimized wizards since 3.5, I'm looking forward to seeing how different optimized wizards are in L.G. compared to typical games at my local Gaming Store.

My biggest curiosity is finding what spells are considered to be....mandatory...multi-versatile.

I'd say Magic Missile. Even at higher levels if you make the SR check its "automatic damage" and for incorporeal undead there's no miss chance.

One of my favorite spells is Orb of Force, at higher levels for constructs and incorporeal undead ie dread wraiths its a plus.

My 14th level Bard has a 12th level wizard cohort and I often have her carry 2 Orbs of Force.

Mike
Lord Yod
06-06-06, 03:20 PM Glitterdust. When I see wizards from levels 3 to 12 casting it first in almost every combat, that tells me something :)

This cannot be emphasized enough. Learn this spell. Memorize AT LEAST one per day. (I memorize 2-3 at 4th level)

Just ran through a mod last night. My table of 4(2 tanks, 1 cleric, 1 wizard) took about 1.5-2 hours. I cast glitterdust twice in the first combat, once in the second. Total time in combat: 5 rounds.

The table next to us had 5 PCs (3 tanks, druid, rogue/wizard), with no glitterdust. Took them 4.5 hours, including 30(!) rounds of combat. This spell is so good it's just silly.

Aside from that, I've had a lot of success:
-Ray of Enfeeblement: the power of this spell scales up with the number of attacks the monster has. So if you're up against something with 3+ attack forms, it's unbelievably good.
-Whirling Blade: The only time a wizard should be dealing damage is if he can outdo the fighter. I load up a master's touch for proficiency and launch one of these for just about the same attack bonus and damage as the fighter, against up to 10 targets. Really great with Critical Strike, Blades of Fire, or just about anything that adds a status effect.
-Enlarge Person: This one sees a lot of use, as it ramps up the tank damage by about 40-50% most of the time. If I start off the fight with one of these, I can do nothing else and still contribute more than the cleric we usually have.

When I level up I'm hoping for good things with Bands of Steel.
trollbill
06-06-06, 03:48 PM When I started my Sorcerer in LG, I picked one 1st-level Spell for combat (color spray) and one for flavor (change self). You'd think spending half my starting spell selection on flavor would be a big disaster, but it forced me to think more creatively than taking raw combat spells would. To date, color spray has had some beneficial results that help us win combats in a traditional manner. On the other hand, change self (combined with ranks in Bluff) has allowed us to defeat entire encounters with the casting of a single spell. Change Self is a very powerful spell.

I also agree that Glitterdust and False Life are very powerful second level spells.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Craig C. 05-26-06, 09:43 PM	Hi Everybody, I just joined the RPGA and will soon be playing a wizard build in an upcoming Living Greyhawk game. Having played numerous optimized wizards since 3.5, I'm looking forward to seeing how different optimized wizards are in L.G. compared to typical games at my local Gaming Store. My biggest curiosity is finding what spells are considered to be overpowered, mandatory, multi-versatile, and/or candidates for banning. Specifically, wizard/sorceror spells. The "candidates for banning" criteria sounds especially interesting because I'm sure there are some hot debates on certain spells and their purpoted effects on dominating the game. It's not that I want to use/abuse them, I'm just more interest in comparative analytics in using said spells in and out of Living Greyhawk. Thanks for your time and input! Craig C.
Mommy was an Orc 05-27-06, 12:35 AM	You might want to check out this yahoo group: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/lgwizards
Craig C. 05-27-06, 07:52 PM	Thank you, Mommy was an Orc. I just joined that Yahoo group (and got accepted). Already I've read some good threads on certain banned/restricted spells. As far as this thread goes - anybody have any other wizard/sorceror spells worth discussing or debating? thanks!
JohnduBois 05-27-06, 08:30 PM	I apologize to Andrew Nuxoll in advance for the content of this post. In my opinion, the single best 1st-level spell in the game is Grease, and no bard, wizard or sorceror should be without it. My bard is currently 10th level and uses the spell to some extent in every adventure. Apart from the spell's obvious effect (making enemies fall down or drop their stuff), here are some effective things that Grease can do (offering NO save and NO SR): 1. Ready an action to stop a charge. Even if that charging, raging barbarian makes his save, he still HAS to stop charging the second he's in a greased area - even if it shows up underneath him. 2. Helping a friend escape a grapple. While not as good as Freedom of Movement, that +10 to escape often tips the scales. Plus, Grease doesn't require touch, wizards don't get FoM anyway, and your 1st-level slots aren't nearly as precious as your 4th-level slots. Save your Dim Door for when YOU get in trouble... 3. An enemy in a greased area can never take a 5-ft step. Ever. It saves the party from SO MANY full attacks when used correctly, it's insane. That's the kind of stuff that can be useful from level 1 to level 15, and it gets under-utilized, IMO.
Lomiat 05-27-06, 11:20 PM	Which spells prove effective also varies quite a bit from level to level and, as one would expect, from mod to mod. As a low-level PC, it's hard to beat: Grease, Color Spray, Sleep, Charm Person, Cause Fear, Enlarge Person, Chill Touch (a wizard's ability to "turn" undead), Invisibility, Glitterdust, See Invisibility, False Life, and Command Undead. I think you hit mid-levels once you start casting 3rd level spells: Haste, Slow, Fly, Fireball, Suggestion, Halt Undead, Dimension Door, Evard's Black Tentacles, Dragon Breath, Stoneshape, Rainbow Pattern, Confusion, Hold Monster, Teleport, Wall of Force, and Overland Flight. If you can find access, Assay Resistance is ESSENTIAL. I haven't had the opportunity, yet, to test out too many 6th-level spells (or higher), but I'll shortly see how well it works to toss out Repulsion now and again.
Book 05-28-06, 12:44 PM	What spells are you seeing in the newer books (Spell Compendium, PHB-II, "Races of" sourcebooks) that are gaining popularity?
Tungar 05-29-06, 08:13 AM	You may charge through a grease, it's a DC 15 balance check (read balance). Personnally, I allow it. Mirror image is a very powerfull spell too. Because it prevents equally from attacks and from targeted spells.
blood_kite 05-29-06, 12:52 PM	You may charge through a grease, it's a DC 15 balance check (read balance). Personnally, I allow it. I was about to disagree with you until I looked over the Balance skill rules again. I always thought of a grease area as difficult terrain, but I found nothing in the spell description to confirm this since the half movement penalty is from balancing. For most NPC's trying to charge through a greased area is about the same as trying to trip themselves. Could you attempt to jump over the greased area as part of a charge?
Tungar 05-29-06, 01:06 PM	Rules are not clear, or I haven't found a clear rule. I think it's up to the DM. Personnally, I will allow it, because jumping doesn't diminish your movement.
Arvagor 05-29-06, 01:28 PM	The answer is "yes, you can" (i.e., jump during the charge). This was clarified in the FAQ well over a year ago (first appearance was the 1/28/05 version), and currently appears on page 42 of the 5/24/06 version.
Lomiat 05-29-06, 06:26 PM	What spells are you seeing in the newer books (Spell Compendium, PHB-II, "Races of" sourcebooks) that are gaining popularity? I assume you're asking about arcane spells, since that's where this thread started: Orbs of [Energy], Lesser Orbs of [Energy], Familiar Pocket, Shadow Binding, Assay Resistance, Dragon Breath, Prismatic Ray, Reciprocal Gyre, Anticipate Teleport, Fires of Purity. Off the top of my head, those are the ones I've seen used to good effect.
Cynric 05-29-06, 10:08 PM	Personally, I can agree with anticipate teleport. I have never played an arcane caster, but I have run a high level module where this particular spell really handed the players a huge advantage. Almost everything was teleporting in and subsequently was seriously smashed when it did come in.
ithardin 05-31-06, 04:41 PM	Glitterdust. When I see wizards from levels 3 to 12 casting it first in almost every combat, that tells me something :)
amnuxoll 06-01-06, 03:35 PM	Curse your and your foul machinations, du Bois! ;)
qstor 06-02-06, 09:53 AM	Hi Everybody, I just joined the RPGA and will soon be playing a wizard build in an upcoming Living Greyhawk game. Having played numerous optimized wizards since 3.5, I'm looking forward to seeing how different optimized wizards are in L.G. compared to typical games at my local Gaming Store. My biggest curiosity is finding what spells are considered to be....mandatory...multi-versatile. I'd say Magic Missile. Even at higher levels if you make the SR check its "automatic damage" and for incorporeal undead there's no miss chance. One of my favorite spells is Orb of Force, at higher levels for constructs and incorporeal undead ie dread wraiths its a plus. My 14th level Bard has a 12th level wizard cohort and I often have her carry 2 Orbs of Force. Mike
Lord Yod 06-06-06, 03:20 PM	Glitterdust. When I see wizards from levels 3 to 12 casting it first in almost every combat, that tells me something :) This cannot be emphasized enough. Learn this spell. Memorize AT LEAST one per day. (I memorize 2-3 at 4th level) Just ran through a mod last night. My table of 4(2 tanks, 1 cleric, 1 wizard) took about 1.5-2 hours. I cast glitterdust twice in the first combat, once in the second. Total time in combat: 5 rounds. The table next to us had 5 PCs (3 tanks, druid, rogue/wizard), with no glitterdust. Took them 4.5 hours, including 30(!) rounds of combat. This spell is so good it's just silly. Aside from that, I've had a lot of success: -Ray of Enfeeblement: the power of this spell scales up with the number of attacks the monster has. So if you're up against something with 3+ attack forms, it's unbelievably good. -Whirling Blade: The only time a wizard should be dealing damage is if he can outdo the fighter. I load up a master's touch for proficiency and launch one of these for just about the same attack bonus and damage as the fighter, against up to 10 targets. Really great with Critical Strike, Blades of Fire, or just about anything that adds a status effect. -Enlarge Person: This one sees a lot of use, as it ramps up the tank damage by about 40-50% most of the time. If I start off the fight with one of these, I can do nothing else and still contribute more than the cleric we usually have. When I level up I'm hoping for good things with Bands of Steel.
trollbill 06-06-06, 03:48 PM	When I started my Sorcerer in LG, I picked one 1st-level Spell for combat (color spray) and one for flavor (change self). You'd think spending half my starting spell selection on flavor would be a big disaster, but it forced me to think more creatively than taking raw combat spells would. To date, color spray has had some beneficial results that help us win combats in a traditional manner. On the other hand, change self (combined with ranks in Bluff) has allowed us to defeat entire encounters with the casting of a single spell. Change Self is a very powerful spell. I also agree that Glitterdust and False Life are very powerful second level spells.