Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Puggle Halfwine 02-26-06, 04:39 AM	Hey guys, I'm building a paladin/rogue character (think Batman from Batman Begins) and I'm wondering specifically about the 'Code of Conduct' for a paladin. From the SRD: Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. My questions were mostly about the second clause of this code. Firstly, is the need to 'act with honour' tied to the need to respect legitimate authority? For instance, can a paladin lie to the detect-as-evil Hextorian authorities in a city ruled by Hextorites? IE, "No, we wern't near the burning building at all. What burning building?" Secondly, Paladins can't use any poison at all, nor cheat. Can they, for instance, hide in the shadows- then sneak attack someone? What about hiding in combat, only to sneak attack again? (For instance, Paladin hides, leaps out of the shadows and attacks a guy, then bluffs and hides again, only to attack again).
Objulen 02-26-06, 11:12 AM	Firstly, is the need to 'act with honour' tied to the need to respect legitimate authority? For instance, can a paladin lie to the detect-as-evil Hextorian authorities in a city ruled by Hextorites? IE, "No, we wern't near the burning building at all. What burning building?" The old "if I drop a paladin into Baator" conundrum. If you note: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Emphasis mine. Clearly, good overrides law as far as a paladin is concerned, so when forced to choose, the paladin choose good. If that means lying to a Hextorian or breaking the laws of the Baatezu, o well. Secondly, Paladins can't use any poison at all, nor cheat. Can they, for instance, hide in the shadows- then sneak attack someone? What about hiding in combat, only to sneak attack again? (For instance, Paladin hides, leaps out of the shadows and attacks a guy, then bluffs and hides again, only to attack again). Given that there's a feat specifically for multi-classed paladin/rogues from CA (Devoted Inquisitor), and that the prerequisties are smite evil and sneak attack, you can use sneak attack. Poison is probably a no-no, on the other hand.
scottishswash91 02-26-06, 02:32 PM	Hey guys, I'm building a paladin/rogue character (think Batman from Batman Begins) and I'm wondering specifically about the 'Code of Conduct' for a paladin. Also remember that a paladin who takes a level in another class may never advance as a paladin. Basically take the rogue levels first and then add paladin. There are several prestige classes that allow you to continue on as a paladin, but a rogue level pretty much ends your progression.
Objulen 02-26-06, 03:17 PM	Also remember that a paladin who takes a level in another class may never advance as a paladin. Basically take the rogue levels first and then add paladin. There are several prestige classes that allow you to continue on as a paladin, but a rogue level pretty much ends your progression. Wouldn't the feats that give you free multiclassing be retroactive?
kenobi65 02-26-06, 06:30 PM	Wouldn't the feats that give you free multiclassing be retroactive? Hmmm, interesting. Devoted Inquisitor doesn't say it's retroactive, though it does certainly say you can multiclass freely between paladin and rogue. Honestly, I'm not sure if it does or doesn't let you go back to paladin if you'd already left the class before you took the feat.
redgamer 02-26-06, 07:53 PM	If I remember correctly you choose a class before chosing a feat on level up. This would suggest that the feats are retroactive. I doubt there are rules that can prove one version incorrect.
DarkKnight 02-26-06, 11:36 PM	I wouldn't see a problem with the hiding and fighting thing, after all it's Lawful Good, not Lawful Stupid. You can use tactics to you best advantage as long as you're not using poisons or killing innocents, etc... Though it does occur to me that Batman seams more of a Monk/Rogue than a Paladin/Rogue as he does seam to fight dirty and doesn't mind inflicting pain to get the job done, but because he still has a code he follows a LG Monk/Rogue just seams to fit more. Just my oppinion though. Hey guys, I'm building a paladin/rogue character (think Batman from Batman Begins) and I'm wondering specifically about the 'Code of Conduct' for a paladin. From the SRD: Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. My questions were mostly about the second clause of this code. Firstly, is the need to 'act with honour' tied to the need to respect legitimate authority? For instance, can a paladin lie to the detect-as-evil Hextorian authorities in a city ruled by Hextorites? IE, "No, we wern't near the burning building at all. What burning building?" Secondly, Paladins can't use any poison at all, nor cheat. Can they, for instance, hide in the shadows- then sneak attack someone? What about hiding in combat, only to sneak attack again? (For instance, Paladin hides, leaps out of the shadows and attacks a guy, then bluffs and hides again, only to attack again).
mendahu 02-27-06, 01:51 AM	Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. Firstly, is the need to 'act with honour' tied to the need to respect legitimate authority? For instance, can a paladin lie to the detect-as-evil Hextorian authorities in a city ruled by Hextorites? IE, "No, we wern't near the burning building at all. What burning building?" Hextorian authorities aren't "legitimate authority" in my opinion. As far as I am concerned, it is within a Paladin's line of duty to overthrow tyranny, even if its law. I certainly wouldn't revoke a PC's paladinhood for decieving some Hextorians, though he would certainly get bonus RP points in my books if he roleplayed being uncomfortable lying (avoiding the truth instead of outright lying). Secondly, Paladins can't use any poison at all, nor cheat. Can they, for instance, hide in the shadows- then sneak attack someone? What about hiding in combat, only to sneak attack again? (For instance, Paladin hides, leaps out of the shadows and attacks a guy, then bluffs and hides again, only to attack again). This is a gray area. Certainly a Paladin is allowed to use his Sneak Attack ability if he has rogue levels (as someone pointed out), but sneaking around and leaping from shadows is not something honourably done in my opinion. To a Paladin, it might be considered an act of cowardice (skulking around instead of facing your foe head on like a knight should). I would limit my sneak attacking to flat-footed and flanked opponents to be safe, but there will obviously be table variation. -Jake Robins Edmonton, AB
scottishswash91 02-27-06, 10:41 AM	I wouldn't see a problem with the hiding and fighting thing, after all it's Lawful Good, not Lawful Stupid. You can use tactics to you best advantage as long as you're not using poisons or killing innocents, etc... Though it does occur to me that Batman seams more of a Monk/Rogue than a Paladin/Rogue as he does seam to fight dirty and doesn't mind inflicting pain to get the job done, but because he still has a code he follows a LG Monk/Rogue just seams to fit more. Just my oppinion though. I tend to agree with the monk line of thought. Knowing the Batman history, but not yet seeing Begins(slaps himself on the wrist); monk just seems more fitting. He rarely uses weapons and beats the living crap out of bad guys with his hands and feet.
Prochytes 02-27-06, 11:11 AM	I tend to agree with the monk line of thought. Knowing the Batman history, but not yet seeing Begins(slaps himself on the wrist); monk just seems more fitting. He rarely uses weapons and beat the living crap out of bad guys with his hands and fee. I concur. I suspect that Mr. Wayne is best realized as an epic level monk/rogue with a level or two of Shadowdancer thrown in. This conveys: 1. The unarmed combat prowess ("disciple of the master Kirigi... student of twelve disciplines" as of the comics; student of Ra's Al Ghul as of the film). 2. The trademark sudden appearances and disappearances (Hide in Plain Sight). 3. "Master of almost every conceivable field of mental and physical endeavour/World's Greatest Detective" (huge array of class skills and skill points coming out of his ears). Whether he counts as Lawful Good as of the D&D alignment system is a moot point. He pursues criminals and malefactors unrelentingly, and adheres rigorously to his own code of conduct.... but he does not object to breaking and entering, assault, torture (within limits), or more minor infractions on his own part in doing so.
Arvagor 02-27-06, 11:51 AM	I concur. I suspect that Mr. Wayne is best realized as an epic level monk/rogue with a level or two of Shadowdancer thrown in.Surely, you must throw in the Vigilante class from Complete Adventurer as well? I seem to recall the depiction/illustration being a rather direct knock^H^H^H^H^H homage to the Dark Knight...
Prochytes 02-27-06, 12:48 PM	Surely, you must throw in the Vigilante class from Complete Adventurer as well? I seem to recall the depiction/illustration being a rather direct knock^H^H^H^H^H homage to the Dark Knight... For flavour, certainly (and you are absolutely right about the illustration). I was steering clear of classes with magical abilities, however, as they do not really fit with the character (although one could make a good case for using magic as the analogue to the utility belt and arsenal of other technological tricks). And I do not much like Vigilante as a class, I am afraid.
scottishswash91 03-01-06, 12:42 AM	I would have to say more of a NG alignment. This is due to the fact that he does occassionally violate the written laws of the land.
paigeoliver 03-01-06, 12:51 AM	I have always been of the opinion that different Paladins will have different personal codes. All of them are quite Paladinish, but can vary quite a bit. I can see one Paladin who won't lie at all, while I could equally see another Paladin who takes deep-cover missions which require a lot of lying. What matters to me as a GM is the internal consistancy. I have a neutral good character who won't lie. Well, she will, but it will always be rediculous and then be immediately followed by "Ok, not really, I'm lying" or something to that effect. Shes not Lawful Good because she operates under the good/evil is black and white assumptions, while the actual laws of the land are meaningless to her. She also doesn't particularly try to take prisoners, which is hard to do for an archer anyway. I have another character who will soon be a Paladin who has been slowly moving around the spectrum from Chaotic good. He has never killed ANYTHING during his entire career and he is close to 5th level. The only time he has ever even done lethal damage was when he has tripped flying creatures with his whip and made them fall. He takes a lot of prisoners. Once he becomes a Paladin he will be the type who will take prisoners first and then ask questions later.
MorgaGrimshaw 03-10-06, 11:48 AM	I see nothin wrong with hiding and sneed attacking, otherwise there would not be feats and classes that have a prerequisit Palidan and Sneek Attack. So long as he does not see it as wrong to sneek attack. Remember: once a palidan always a palidan until you stop. a rule I do not entirely agree with, but one that exists. Now there may be a feat that allows you to multi class, but couldn't you also become a hobbit and freely multiclass to a rogue (favored class) And remember, to survive take ranks in search and disable device. the ever so common occurance of "you have ranks in rogue? open the door!" will happen a lot. Irreguardless of weather you are ment to take that or not. Also remember that rogues have a lot of dependancy on light armor (evesion:light armor to use) and so forth. so if you take verry many levels in rogue, make sure to have that light armor. also remember not everyone is perfect. Palidans make "mistakes". I have seen a palidan mug a man in a dark allyway and not break his alignment because that man withheld information that could save many lives (no weapons drawn) death threats, exc... but it would have saved lives should he have gotten the information and the man possible killed someone aswell, so it wound up to be ok in the end. There are many people that could find this anti palidanish, but you know. At the time it was the right thing to do and no one in the group beleved otherwise.
redgamer 03-10-06, 02:54 PM	What are you talking about? There are no hobbits in D&D and even if there were they would be a race not a class. There are a half dozen or so feats that let a paladin mutliclass plus a handfull of prestige classes. Paladins with ranks in search and disable device are less survivable. This is arguable true even if they are a Paladin/Rogue. How is mugging ever a lawful act? Mugging may not require an atonement but it is almost never, and not in your example, a lawful good act.
kenobi65 03-10-06, 09:49 PM	What are you talking about? There are no hobbits in D&D and even if there were they would be a race not a class. Well, I'm sure he meant "halfling" (I know quite a few players who insist on calling them hobbits). And, I think he meant "you could play a halfling", not "move into halfling" (as if it were a class). Even so, even though rogue is a halfing's preferred class, that still wouldn't let a halfling paladin freely multiclass with rogue. All the "preferred class" lets you do is avoid XP penalties for multiclassing.
MorgaGrimshaw 03-13-06, 11:21 AM	Yes, I meant halfling. Yes it wound up to be a lawful act. The guy was Chaotic Evil, With holding information essencial to the survival of a dozen or so people, and we accually saved his life. Good point about the halfling prefered class. However Unless there is a rogue in the group, expect to be one. and as for the sneek attack as stated before tatics. Sneekey is fine. Backstab is not good. Watch the people you play with to. If they have a more leaniant version of "Good" or "Lawful" then you may get away with more slightly less good, but yet still goodish acts. If they are verry strict, good luck using any rogue abilities. Watch the GM mostly. He is afterall the only one that can force you to loose those abilities.
Iswald 03-13-06, 10:29 PM	Mugging somebody is never a lawful act. It's not a good act either. It doesn't make any sense for a paladin to act that way. On the other hand, a chaotic good or neutral good character may be willing to overlook it as a necessary evil to perform a greater good.
RanielK 03-13-06, 11:00 PM	Whether he counts as Lawful Good as of the D&D alignment system is a moot point. He pursues criminals and malefactors unrelentingly, and adheres rigorously to his own code of conduct.... but he does not object to breaking and entering, assault, torture (within limits), or more minor infractions on his own part in doing so. No, if you go by the first, what, six months of the original Bob Kane story as well as Miller's Dark Knight Returns, Batman is at best LN and might even be a little (E) to boot. He deffinitely was focused on use fear and some of the criminals' own tricks against them, but he difinitely never killed, worked to get criminals in the hands of the cops (at least after Year 1) and believed in redemption (to some extent since Bruce Wayne funded Arkham Asylum). However, he was somewhat sociopathic. Hell, Bob didn't even give him a reason for doing what he did (other than liking to inflict pain on criminals) for the first six months. And he's snapped more than a time or two (Bruce Wayne: Criminal where he let Bruce Wayne "die" in a prison escape after being framed for murder and went on as only Batman).
Mortepierre 03-14-06, 05:15 AM	Hextorian authorities aren't "legitimate authority" in my opinion. As far as I am concerned, it is within a Paladin's line of duty to overthrow tyranny, even if its law. I certainly wouldn't revoke a PC's paladinhood for decieving some Hextorians That's a matter of opinion. Let me remind you that the Great Kingdom - before House Naelax took over - used a legal system involving Heironeous, Pholtus, and Hextor. Heck, the Knights Protector of the GK accepted members devoted to both Heironeous and Hextor! (and there were paladins in there) As long as an Hextorite swore to uphold the law first and foremost, he could be put in charge and would have to be considered the "lawful" authority, whether people liked it or not. People have to remember that just because one is LE and worships Hextor doesn't mean one is incapable of doing what is "right". Sure, an Hextorite will forever be tempted to use a little extra-force and will likely be a lot less lenient than a good guy, but he can do things by the book. Granted, things in the (former) GK are now drastically different but still.. I've run mod. set there and if a paladin PC breaks the law just because the local judge or guard belongs to the cult of Hextor, you better believe there'll be a price to pay! Dura lex, sed lex as goes the old saying. That said, if the same paladin breaks a law that is obviously evil in its intent, then I'll turn a blind eye to what he is doing. Common sense should obviously prevail...
Madfox11 03-15-06, 04:05 AM	On the other hand, a chaotic good or neutral good character may be willing to overlook it as a necessary evil to perform a greater good. So can lawful good characters, it is the paladin (and to a lesser extend other divine spellcasters) that cannot overlook the necessary evil for the greater good. In any event, as far as I am concerned the end justifies the means has little to do with chaos, or law, and if the means are evil the character still commited an evil act. Granted chaotic characters are more prone to break the rules, but I can definitely think of lawful behaviour that would fall under the perview "end justifies the means". In fact, isn't the Utopia gone wrong often enough about law gone wrong?
Eric_Pittsburgh 03-16-06, 09:04 AM	There I was, everything was on the line. I made that crucial "Craft: Cat Toys" roll and I got a 1. I was hoping for a wooden mouse with a bell inside, instead I made a 30 pound iron mouse covered in razor sharp spikes. And that's the story of how I became a Paladin. Frankly, this is a story want to see fleshed out. I have a need to know how failing a Craft: Cat Toys roll made one become a paladin. I really will have this bouncing around the back of my skull for days unless I find out the connection. Eric Pittsburghrpga.org
MorgaGrimshaw 03-17-06, 11:02 AM	As previously stated, most of this is point of view lead. (metal if it may be) but if you look at "honor" and "good" and ask around for it, you will find a different answer for each question. "honor" can be from the number of kills, to a good person and protector. "good" can be from obeys all the laws 100% of the time and NEVER hurts anyone, to the end justifies the means. Look deep into your characters black heart and ask....Can I do it?
PaulH 03-17-06, 06:55 PM	Hi Most of the points have already been covered, but....... Paladins don't 'Sneak Attack' - they 'feint' in combat, use ambush etc as proper military strategies. So no problem with Rogue levels. Cheers Paul H