Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Leste 07-19-07, 04:24 PM	My question: Do new 1st level player characters have top pay the upkeep for their very first Living Greyhawk adventure? In this case we're going to play "Scource oft he Howling horde" which will cost 5 TU x 12 = 60 Gold. Not all of my players can spend this amount of money. Are we expected to pay the upkeep or does an exception exist for the first adventure?
Howie23 07-19-07, 05:02 PM	My question: Do new 1st level player characters have top pay the upkeep for their very first Living Greyhawk adventure? In this case we're going to play "Scource oft he Howling horde" which will cost 5 TU x 12 = 60 Gold. Not all of my players can spend this amount of money. Are we expected to pay the upkeep or does an exception exist for the first adventure? There is no exception on upkeep for the first adventure. If PCs do not pay upkeep, there are certain penalties. Any Monk experiences this on their first AR if it a non-regional. It has been observed that, while a PC must have the 60gp on hand at the start of the adventure, it is payable at the end. What can be done with those funds between the start of the adventure (when the funds must be on hand) and the end (when the funds are due), is subject to some speculation. David
Leste 07-19-07, 05:36 PM	The Monk is exactly my problem: He has about 20 gold left, so he can't pay the 60 gp at the start of the adventure. He has to start using the option "paying no upkeep" and may suffer some (social) penalties. Ok. Is he allowed to pay the 60 gp AT THE END of the adventure, so that he would be able to heal suffered damage prior starting the next adventure? Otherwise he will have a hard time...
bitznarf 07-19-07, 05:59 PM	The LGCS is pretty clear on this one: "You must have enough GP to cover the adventure’s TU cost at the beginning of play, but the actual deduction of the GP occurs after play." Thus, if you do not have the funds to pay for upkeep at the beginning of the adventure, "you retain any damage into the next adventure and does not gain any of the benefits of standard upkeep."
Howie23 07-19-07, 06:06 PM	The LGCS is pretty clear on this one: "You must have enough GP to cover the adventure’s TU cost at the beginning of play, but the actual deduction of the GP occurs after play." Thus, if you do not have the funds to pay for upkeep at the beginning of the adventure, "you retain any damage into the next adventure and does not gain any of the benefits of standard upkeep." The damage is easy to take care of (heal up at end of mod), but ability damage can be bad, and disease can kill. David
Leste 07-19-07, 06:12 PM	Agree, the paragraph is quite clear. But... It has been observed that, while a PC must have the 60gp on hand at the start of the adventure, it is payable at the end. ...then this is of absolutely no concern. If i don't have the money at the start of the adventure, it is of no concern if i own the money at the end of the adventure. i will suffer the penalties for not having paid the upkeep for the current adventure AND i won't heal damage until the start of the next adventure. It is of course a bit stupid for the "startes" not beeing able to begin their 2nd adventure "healed" - isn't it? It should be possible to pay the upkeep after their first adventure to get them healed again.
bitznarf 07-19-07, 06:16 PM	...then this is of absolutely no concern. If i don't have the money at the start of the adventure, it is of no concern if i own the money at the end of the adventure. i will suffer the penalties for not having paid the upkeep for the current adventure AND i won't heal damage until the start of the next adventure. Exactly right, the fact that you pay at the end has no impact on the situation really.
Howie23 07-19-07, 06:18 PM	It is of course a bit stupid for the "startes" not beeing able to begin their 2nd adventure "healed" - isn't it? It should be possible to pay the upkeep after their first adventure to get them healed again. So, don't play a monk in this adventure, as a first adventure. Play a different adventure first, or play a non-monk. Seriously. The player does have a choice. David
kjenks 07-19-07, 07:09 PM	Live Wild on your first AR. It won't hurt. Much. LGCS === You may choose not to pay for your PC’s upkeep for an adventure. If you do so, the PC retains any damage into the next adventure and does not gain any of the benefits of standard upkeep. The PC may gain other penalties or benefits at the discretion of your GM. At the beginning of the adventure, if your PC possesses at least five ranks in Survival and succeed on a DC 20 Survival check, he gains the benefits for standard upkeep. He may still gain penalties or benefits at the discretion of your GM. If you fail this check, you may not then choose to pay for upkeep for that adventure. Declare your upkeep choice to your GM before play begins. You must have enough GP to cover the adventure’s TU cost at the beginning of play, but the actual deduction of the GP occurs after play. === Naturally, a level 1 character won't have 5 ranks in Survival, so you can't even roll. In fact, you can save around 2,000 gp over your character's entire career by living Wild every mod. What do you care if you stink a little bit? You're usually hanging out with 3-5 other homeless people who are also in need of a good shower.
bitznarf 07-19-07, 07:15 PM	The problem comes at the beginning of the next mod, when you havn't healed or gotten new arrows and the like.
Istaran 07-19-07, 07:50 PM	The problem comes at the beginning of the next mod, when you havn't healed or gotten new arrows and the like. New arrows are 1 gp, payable at the end of your mod as a plain old purchase out of the 1000+ gp you got in the mod. Having played one adventure, you could also buy a potion of CLW, 50 gp, and with a lucky roll come out fully healed. That's 51 gp, less than your upkeep would have been. Or buy the reduced charges wand of CLW and use some of those charges to heal up; that's 15 gp per charge, so as long as it takes less than 3 charges, you saved money compared to the 60 gp upkeep. I'm assuming, of course, that your next adventure will include at least one cleric, druid, favored soul, paladin, ranger, or anyone else who can get a 'happy stick' to work. If not, you're probably doomed anyways.
clannagh 07-20-07, 01:29 AM	The best solution is to find another intro no-one has played and run the PCs through that first. Howling Hordes could possibly be a bit tough for an entire party of new characters with no resources, but by second game with a guard dog or two in the party and some cure potions its a lot more manageable.
gomeztoo 07-20-07, 03:27 AM	I don't know about you lot but we generally get ourselves healed before we finish the adventure... I don't recall any scenario where we ended with wounds. My main character has near never paid upkeep (which I found has some repercussions in modules, i.e. in one scenario I was ordered to take a bath in a water barrel before I was let into the inn. Then again that is also the scenario where she got into a food-fight on a fish-gutting warf so there). Another PC otoh always takes rich upkeep (a few more levels and I can afford luxury without too much pain ;). Btw I did once hear a rule that 1st level adventures don't require upkeep, but that was inaccurate - I don't know how that story came to be really. That said, I do think it is not a bad idea to allow if for the first scenario. I'll toss it about.
Puggle Halfwine 07-20-07, 06:58 AM	A fair few intro modules here in Ratik offer favours which mean you do not have to pay lifestyle in those modules. It just gives low level characters a break, that's all.
pedr 07-20-07, 08:05 AM	Really, the only problem is temporary ability damage. There's a reasonable chance of encountering things which inflict ability damage at APL 2, and far less chance of encountering people who can cast Lesser Restoration.
kjenks 07-20-07, 09:18 AM	I don't know about you lot but we generally get ourselves healed before we finish the adventure... I don't recall any scenario where we ended with wounds. Heh. I was the convention organizer at OwlCon 2007. There was a table that was running over its allotted time, so I asked the DM to call the table in order to start mustering the next slot. That got me seven very weary smiles -- it turned out that five of the six characters were at negative hit points and the last one was trying to make his way to the exit. (Yes, of course it was an Iuz metaregional.) There was no healing before the end of the adventure there! Imagine if one of those characters at negative hit points had chosen not to pay Standard lifestyle in that game. He'd start the next game still at negatives.
The_Jester 07-20-07, 10:12 AM	If you KNOW how much gold you need for a mod like that but are playing a monk then simply start the mod with no equipment and as soon as it starts you "buy" it. Mod starts and you run to the store. So when writing up your AR you deduct the lifestyle first. Then add the adventure's gold. Then deduct the equipment you purchased.
gomeztoo 07-20-07, 10:39 AM	Which doesn't help if you play an APL 2 Core.
kjenks 07-20-07, 11:52 AM	If you KNOW how much gold you need for a mod like that but are playing a monk then simply start the mod with no equipment and as soon as it starts you "buy" it. Mod starts and you run to the store. So when writing up your AR you deduct the lifestyle first. Then add the adventure's gold. Then deduct the equipment you purchased. Running to the store is not always an option. Sometimes, the mod starts with, "First, let me read some boxed text, then everybody roll initiative." COR3-15 Nine Lives started that way. Other mods start like, "After several weeks of travel, you find yourselves in the middle of the desert." This lack of access to shopping might not be a problem for a monk, but it can be an issue for other starting characters. Lately, when I start a new LG character, I think long and hard before buying him armor or weapons prior to the first AR. Quarterstaff and clubs and slings are often good enough. It often makes sense to wait until the PC has some real money before buying, say, a non-masterwork chain shirt or weapon that gets sold off for half price ASAP. I frequently see the opportunity to loot bodies for armor and weapons after the first combat, so it's not like going without any gear for the whole mod. There are other things for a starting PC to spend money on, like scrolls or a familiar or a light warhorse, both of which can give lasting benefits for many mods to come, and a starting PC can't afford those critters if he invests a lot in armor and weapons.
Samwise 07-20-07, 12:22 PM	If you play an APL 2 Core: In the City of Greyhawk, there is one tax and one set of fees that must be paid before entering the city. This almost always means before any bad guys can be looted. If you don't pay the Freesword Tax, you can not sell loot, or be hired for a mission. Patrons won't hire you, and if you just hide outside while everyone else gets hired, you can get in major trouble with the law. (Major = Arrested! and lose all gold gained.) If you don't pay for weapon licenses, you will be restricted to clubs, staves, and daggers. Again, there are hefty penalties for "smuggling" your sword into the city. So save some extra cash for these. Even a monk needs that 3 gp to start adventuring in the city, even if he sleeps in an alley.
bitznarf 07-20-07, 12:25 PM	Where can we find a concrete set of these Greyhawk laws Sam? Before now I've never even heard of this 'Freesword Tax'. Edit: I just downloaded Sins of the Father to prep it and I see these listed there. Are these laws retroactive? Ie. do they apply to mods set in Greyhawk even if the laws are not in the appendix of the mod?
Samwise 07-20-07, 12:30 PM	Where can we find a concrete set of these Greyhawk laws Sam? Before now I've never even heard of this 'Freesword Tax'. In any current core adventure set in or near the city. They are two pages long, and have all the details about the Freesword Tax, Weapon Licenses, and other laws. All of them come from the City of Greyhawk Boxed Set, updated to 3.5 and LG standards.
Howie23 07-20-07, 01:22 PM	In any current core adventure set in or near the city. They are two pages long, and have all the details about the Freesword Tax, Weapon Licenses, and other laws. All of them come from the City of Greyhawk Boxed Set, updated to 3.5 and LG standards. What mechanism puts this in play for current cores in which the laws do not appear? How is it expected that a DM even knows that such a rule appears in a different mod? If the intent is for these to be part of any mod set in Greyhawk, the list needs to appear in the mod, a DC, or similar ammendment to the campaign rules. One of the implied foundations of the campaign is that PCs get a fairly similar set of experiences regarding challenges and resource requirements. If what I'm suggesting is in process, good to hear. David
Samwise 07-20-07, 01:41 PM	What mechanism puts this in play for current cores in which the laws do not appear? How is it expected that a DM even knows that such a rule appears in a different mod? I would expect, as just another player, that you run adventures as written. If you have a 2006 core that doesn't include them, you don't use them. If the intent is for these to be part of any mod set in Greyhawk, the list needs to appear in the mod, a DC, or similar ammendment to the campaign rules. Again, they appear in all the 2007 cores set in the city that I have run (and thus can reference immediately). And again, this is just as another player, looking at some adventures, seeing something consistent, and sharing it with others, particularly with Gen Con coming up. When I sit down and run these, I begin the session by informing the players of the costs, and that they can not be covered by above cap treasure. (And that I'll be checking their AR for it.) Any question of extending this to adventures where they aren't included, or putting it in another document, would have to be asked of Creighton, and probably appear in a Dispel Confusion article.
Howie23 07-20-07, 02:18 PM	I would expect, as just another player, that you run adventures as written. If you have a 2006 core that doesn't include them, you don't use them. Thanks for correcting your earlier statement. David
Samwise 07-20-07, 02:30 PM	Thanks for correcting your earlier statement. David It is more of a clarification. I mean "current" as "2007 releases." I constantly think of things in terms of the most recent rules and status. (So even 2007 adventures from before the LGCS 7.0 aren't really "current" to me any more.) I keep forgetting the "old" stuff hangs around for the next calendar year. Sorry if it was confusing.
Howie23 07-20-07, 02:37 PM	It is more of a clarification. I mean "current" as "2007 releases." I constantly think of things in terms of the most recent rules and status. (So even 2007 adventures from before the LGCS 7.0 aren't really "current" to me any more.) I keep forgetting the "old" stuff hangs around for the next calendar year. Sorry if it was confusing. Understood, and thank you again. Not trying to run you through the gauntlet. :) If people can view dedicated as both, "Play only mods in a given arc," and "Use all TUs possible w/this PC," then current can certainly mean different things to different folks as well. David
gomeztoo 07-20-07, 03:48 PM	So if you happen to be broke when you start the scenario you can't actually play it? Not that I actually expect that to happen, but still...
bitznarf 07-20-07, 03:51 PM	You just don't pay for upkeep, stink the whole mod, and don't heal between that mod and your next one.
TetsujinOni 07-20-07, 03:58 PM	You just don't pay for upkeep, stink the whole mod, and don't heal between that mod and your next one. and of those all, the last is the one most-forgotten and most-needful. of course, there's usually at least a day or two of travel time for a Cleric to cleric during the return-to-patron portion of the adventure....
gomeztoo 07-20-07, 04:00 PM	I mean the Greyhawk ones. If you can't pay the tax, you can't get hired, hence you can't play. As I said, not *likely* to happen, but possible...
bitznarf 07-20-07, 04:04 PM	If I was DMing it, I would let another PC pay for you. Not entirely sure if that is legal (probably is), but that is how I would handle it. Or you can try to circumvent the tax, it is possible.
Samwise 07-20-07, 04:12 PM	So if you happen to be broke when you start the scenario you can't actually play it? Not that I actually expect that to happen, but still... You mean a core in the city of Greyhawk? According to the laws, you can still play it, but: 1. No employer will negotiate with you. (Like asking the paladint to leave while you torture the prisoner.) 2. If you are caught taking payment for a job or selling loot, you are arrested and charged with a crime that basically costs you gp equal to the cap for the adventure. (And since the employer never met you, he won't give your buddy your share for his friend he never met. You could pick up your share of battle loot outside the city though.) Generally, save that 3 gp!
Samwise 07-20-07, 04:30 PM	If I was DMing it, I would let another PC pay for you. Not entirely sure if that is legal (probably is), but that is how I would handle it. Or you can try to circumvent the tax, it is possible. I'd let someone else pay too, I think that is allowed as it is not upkeep, just a miscellaneous expense of the adventure. And you can circumvent it. There is a section on what happens if you don't pay and get caught. So there is a direct intent that you can circumvent the law, it just has excessive consequences. (And it is actually worse in the City of Greyhawk boxed set. They take all your loot, and THEN fine you.)
Bogjob 07-21-07, 12:07 PM	I have hinted to the Irish contingent (who I am DMing this for) to get 2 APL2's under their belt first of all due to the 60 GP for living expenses and since they already know to buy a potion or two out of their first AR's they should be OK in it.
Chernobyl1 07-23-07, 03:11 AM	I really recommend you play Scourge as your third intro - otherwise you lose the opportunity to play 2 other intro mods with that character. Unles of course, you've already played every intro available to you...
Leste 07-23-07, 11:02 AM	hm? I don't understand the problem with "playing an intro adventure". why should i play one? do they grant any benefits?
bitznarf 07-23-07, 11:36 AM	They are specifically geared towards a party of 1st level chararters, rather than 2nd level characters for a normal APL 2 mod.
kjenks 07-23-07, 11:38 AM	hm? I don't understand the problem with "playing an intro adventure". why should i play one? do they grant any benefits? First of all, it's an additional opportunity to play -- on top of the 8 regionals, 8 metaregionals, 20 cores and some adapted adventures. If you play 'em all (8+8+20+about 3 = about 39) and you still have a few weekends left in the year, you might want to play some intro mods, too. Second, an intro mod is (allegedly) balanced for an APL 1 party. All of the other mods start at APL 2, so they're a little more challenging than the intro mods. The problem being addressed in this thread is really about a starting character. Although you can start a character in almost any mod, you get those two benefits from starting a character in an intro mod.