Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Puggle Halfwine 11-13-06, 05:24 PM	Hey guys, I just wanted to ask- what do you guys think of the alternate class features presented in the Player's Handbook II? The reason why I ask is that some of them must be taken at 1st level, which means "unlocking" the features via ARs (except for "You may start a new character with..." style unlocks) won't be possible. So. What does everyone think? Should they be allowed for 597? Personally I like them, but I think the Wizard alternate class features require... clarification on how some of them work before I'd consider them balanced.
Cynric 11-13-06, 06:01 PM	Personally I like the fighter, druid, ranger, rogue and paladin features. Sorcerer is a bit dangerous but it should be workable. The main problem i have with them is that it makes some classes very dippable, not much more than now but a bit. Out of all of them I really like the rogue and ranger, but maybe that has something to do with my play style.
ShinAkuma2 11-13-06, 06:10 PM	The reason why I ask is that some of them must be taken at 1st level, which means "unlocking" the features via ARs (except for "You may start a new character with..." style unlocks) won't be possible. Why not? Say you have access to the Monk alternate class feature. You then take a level of Monk, and BAM. Sure, this isn't useful to everyone, and really hurts Monks themselves, but LG access is designed to **** players off.
SirApropos 11-13-06, 10:29 PM	I've already seen access to the Fighter and Rogue Alt Class features on one AR. So they are potentially open for inclusion in the next LGCS. I agree that they would be better for starting PC's vs existing ones but as someone already pointed out not everything always falls your way access wise.
Morgen 11-15-06, 03:04 PM	I'd assume since we haven't allowed the racial alternative levels in LG that the alternate class features probably won't be allowed. If they did I'd hope they'd allow another small rewrite for characters again. My sorcerer really wants to use some of his new spells he found. >.>;
ShinAkuma2 11-15-06, 07:55 PM	I'd assume since we haven't allowed the racial alternative levels in LG that the alternate class features probably won't be allowed. Well, they already are allowed in some fashion. I guess we'll just have to hope for another conversion at some point or another.
Jay_Ibero_911 11-15-06, 09:03 PM	I could have sworn that somewhere they said there wouldn't be any more conversions until the next edition. That said it would be pretty cool to allow the alternative class features without access, would make the game a LOT less vanilla...then again, if they were allowed, there would probably be a lot of people complaining that everyone would just use the alternates if they could. The only really powerful one off the top of my head is the wizard variant with the 10 ft teleport as an immediate action a number of times per day equal to INT bonus. No more worrying about grapples, or awkward positioning, just boop, then 5ft step or move on your turn and get on with business...
_m_ 11-16-06, 05:22 PM	I could have sworn that somewhere they said there wouldn't be any more conversions until the next edition. That said it would be pretty cool to allow the alternative class features without access, would make the game a LOT less vanilla...then again, if they were allowed, there would probably be a lot of people complaining that everyone would just use the alternates if they could. The only really powerful one off the top of my head is the wizard variant with the 10 ft teleport as an immediate action a number of times per day equal to INT bonus. No more worrying about grapples, or awkward positioning, just boop, then 5ft step or move on your turn and get on with business... i assume it would work identically to a shadowcasters 'flicker', which if used to avoid an attack, gives the attack a 50% miss chance. so, not quite as good as it sounds, as you might still get smacked, but still quite good.
Jay_Ibero_911 11-16-06, 08:27 PM	i assume it would work identically to a shadowcasters 'flicker', which if used to avoid an attack, gives the attack a 50% miss chance. so, not quite as good as it sounds, as you might still get smacked, but still quite good. Technically no. They are 2 distinct abilities. Flicker specifically states the 50% miss chance, whereas the Abrupt Jaunt does not. Therefore, without errata, Abrupt Jaunt could be used to avoid an attack with no risk of being hit, however, with Abrupt Jaunt, you still need to be aware of the attack.
_m_ 11-16-06, 08:38 PM	Technically no. They are 2 distinct abilities. Flicker specifically states the 50% miss chance, whereas the Abrupt Jaunt does not. Therefore, without errata, Abrupt Jaunt could be used to avoid an attack with no risk of being hit, however, with Abrupt Jaunt, you still need to be aware of the attack. i see. also, flicker goes futher.
Cynric 11-17-06, 03:49 AM	The only really powerful one off the top of my head is the wizard variant with the 10 ft teleport as an immediate action a number of times per day equal to INT bonus. No more worrying about grapples, or awkward positioning, just boop, then 5ft step or move on your turn and get on with business... Imagine a scout with one level of wizard with that. 10ft teleport, then skirmish with a bow.:D
Gelth 11-17-06, 11:25 AM	Teleporting doesn't normally count as movement, as far as I know. For example, I'd allow someone to 5' step and then cast Dimension Door. Thus, at my tables, you won't be able to activate Skirmish with instantaneous movement without a very good arguement. --Penn, Ket Triad
PaulH 11-18-06, 07:49 AM	Hi I think that too many options can completely spoil the system. Surely we have enough already with the races/classes we can access now? Thought the idea was to have fun with the tools given - it's the scenarios that should be varied & exciting...... My Mark of Heroes (Living Eberron) character is a Changeling Warmage/Recaster. Adding spells from other classes spell lists to your own as a Warmage (who knows/casts his entire spell repertoire at correct level) is just pure munchkin. Let alone manipulating spells, gaining extra effective 'sudden' feats, etc etc. (All in 5 levels of PrC)! Of course, they could introduce special regions where some variance is allowed (like Bright Lands), but they should be carefully regulated. Thanks Paul H PS Before anyone flames this 'heretic', allow me chance to get my Sudden Quickened Fire Shield up! (3rd lvl spell for Warmage);)
echoota 11-18-06, 05:53 PM	Teleporting doesn't normally count as movement, as far as I know. For example, I'd allow someone to 5' step and then cast Dimension Door. Thus, at my tables, you won't be able to activate Skirmish with instantaneous movement without a very good arguement. Since I won't be satisfied with a living game until I've got a character that can combine rapid shot with shirmish at low levels I suppose I'd argue that thematically the point of the skirmish bonus is that because you are so mobile and shifting your position your catching your target off guard, unable to properly prepare for the shot. So if you teleport you certainly qualify for catching your opponent off guard and allowing you to take the pot shot that you were hoping to achieve. It doesn't really make any sense that you moving somehow makes your shot more accurate, so instead the extra damage can only be explained by angling for a weak spot in the other's defense.
Simpi 11-19-06, 03:13 PM	Hi I think that too many options can completely spoil the system. Surely we have enough already with the races/classes we can access now? Exactly. It also adds work to DMs and makes the work of authors even harder. Too much stuff eventually results in LG being overflowed by the exact same crap that Character Optimization boards are full of (what, you can only make 50 damage on a non-crit hit on 1st level, damn you suck!) Just today I ran a game and wouldn't you know that there was a huge number of things and abilities from certain recently published books (which are currently limited since not in LGCS) that I had not even heard of and was completely unfamiliar. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
Lupo 11-19-06, 03:28 PM	Exactly. It also adds work to DMs and makes the work of authors even harder. Too much stuff eventually results in LG being overflowed by the exact same crap that Character Optimization boards are full of (what, you can only make 50 damage on a non-crit hit on 1st level, damn you suck!) Just today I ran a game and wouldn't you know that there was a huge number of things and abilities from certain recently published books (which are currently limited since not in LGCS) that I had not even heard of and was completely unfamiliar. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad *g*, hope you had a good time skimming to all the new books :) ciao martin m. ps: part of the problem of the zillion of new items, feats, you-name-it is the not "lg-camapign-friendly" editing of WotC.
Madfox11 11-20-06, 04:53 AM	Since I won't be satisfied with a living game until I've got a character that can combine rapid shot with shirmish at low levels I suppose I'd argue that thematically the point of the skirmish bonus is that because you are so mobile and shifting your position your catching your target off guard, unable to properly prepare for the shot. So if you teleport you certainly qualify for catching your opponent off guard and allowing you to take the pot shot that you were hoping to achieve. It doesn't really make any sense that you moving somehow makes your shot more accurate, so instead the extra damage can only be explained by angling for a weak spot in the other's defense. ::shrug:: Teleporting is not movement by game definition, and I could even come with a good reasoning: you need to keep your eye on the opponent to spot that weak spot. I know, skirmish ability works as long as you have a clear view of the opponent while you make the attack and not during the movement, but game mechanics cannot always be explained very well and if you try you get into real silly situations real quick ;) As for the huge amount of new rules... the majority of players actually do want them. It makes life a tad more difficult for the DMs, but just be strict in the rule about the players taking the necessary books with them. I know, players might object strongly, but I have refused feats and spells simply because I had absolutely no clue what it was about.
Gwumph 11-20-06, 07:48 AM	i totally disagree just because it's new doesn't mean it's balanced. A duskblade is a perfect example of munchininess that totally blows games rules away. I alot of players like the new rules because that means they can now create totally unstoppable characters. and Yes it matters if the DM is overburdened. it slows the game down, and decreases the dM ability to roleplay encounters, because he is trying to catch up his players. The whole reason i play LG is because its very tight and restricted and so it doesn't easily fall into power gaming like most home games do.
Madfox11 11-20-06, 09:56 AM	just because it's new doesn't mean it's balanced. A duskblade is a perfect example of munchininess that totally blows games rules away. Huh? I never said that we should accept new stuff automatically. I am perfectly aware some things do not work well, especially not in a LG game. We were talking about new stuff in general, and not about unbalanced new stuff. I have my doubts with some of the alternative class features, but others are perfectly fine. I alot of players like the new rules because that means they can now create totally unstoppable characters. Power might be a reason for some, but I doubt that this is the biggest reason. People want to play something unique, try out something new and different. and Yes it matters if the DM is overburdened. it slows the game down, and decreases the dM ability to roleplay encounters, because he is trying to catch up his players. Which is why you should do these things BEFORE the game. The whole reason i play LG is because its very tight and restricted and so it doesn't easily fall into power gaming like most home games do. :eek: This is the first time that people call LG more restrictive than home games. LG is moderately restrictive at the most, if not just lightly. All the home campaigns I am involved in are a lot more restrictive. It all depends on the DM's and players' wishes. Now, LG is more restrictive than Xen'drik, but even within the current set of rules sick things are possible and easy to reach.
Simpi 11-20-06, 02:09 PM	Now, LG is more restrictive than Xen'drik, but even within the current set of rules sick things are possible and easy to reach. Exactly and new stuff for PCs also means new monsters and not everyone necessary likes it. Basic MM is made with base classes and feats in mind (at least I think so). With new Monster Manuals, the power curve shoots up respectively. Just compare something like CR5 troll in monster manual to CR5 Boneclaw in monster manual 3. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
PaulH 11-20-06, 02:35 PM	Hi Good to hear from you - Sampo. I'm one of the playtesters from Gloucester that tested your scenario Nov 2005. I just don't like all the new books over-ruling the old ones so quickly. That's the domain of Games Workshop. LG shouldn't be just for those who can dish out £25 on a whim just because WotC says so. Different campaigns, like Eberron, or new settings, (like LG's Brifht Sands), are great - you don't have to buy the books if you don't want to - the core books/core campaign remains. Cheers Paul H
Simpi 11-20-06, 04:12 PM	Hi Good to hear from you - Sampo. I'm one of the playtesters from Gloucester that tested your scenario Nov 2005. Another one is currently being playtested and could be out this year, APL2-8 Some Dutch people will play it in a Con this week and I am waiting feedback from aussie playtesters. After that I make any chagnes and then add it to the ever growing pile of work for our poor circle rep (Sorry Pieter, but we really like you, honest :D ) Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
_m_ 11-20-06, 04:56 PM	Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad sampo... as in, just ran dark deceit on line for sum random australians?
Simpi 11-21-06, 01:00 AM	sampo... as in, just ran dark deceit on line for sum random australians? Not sure if they were australians but I did run that online last sunday. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
Madfox11 11-21-06, 04:17 AM	Exactly and new stuff for PCs also means new monsters and not everyone necessary likes it. Basic MM is made with base classes and feats in mind (at least I think so). With new Monster Manuals, the power curve shoots up respectively. Just compare something like CR5 troll in monster manual to CR5 Boneclaw in monster manual 3. ::shrug:: Never took a good look at the boneclaw, but the one time I did face it in a home campaign it felt about as threatening as a troll (if not less so).
_m_ 11-21-06, 06:07 PM	Not sure if they were australians but I did run that online last sunday. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad wizard shadow thing, green star barbarian with a blink dog, 4 rogue, 3 ftr/ 1 cleric, and a thief acrobat? if so, then yeah, all of us except the thief acrobat were ausies... sitting in my dining room, from midnight till 6 am :D