Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grey1 12-01-06, 01:50 AM	Hi. This is my first post to the forums, so thanks in advance!:) I was wondering if the new Player's Handbook II is allowed in LG RPGA... This mainly regards the new classes (specifically Duskblade). Also, if Duskblade is allowed, would it be considered as a Favored Class for a multiclass Elf? I know this might be stretching it, but because of the class' close connection to Elves, I was hoping it was a possibility (in addition to Wizard). I was hoping to use the search feature, so as not to bother you guys, but apparently it's been disabled. Anyway, this may be the beginning of a bunch of questions, but it should be a good start... Again, Thanks. Grey.
Sutro 12-01-06, 01:57 AM	It won't be allowed as a favored class. We've seen a rotation in of base classes and nothing was changed, so don't expect it to in the future. As far as it being introduced, you have a minimum wait until late Feb-March for the annual update to the LGCS for that answer. It looks like we're trending more to once-annual rules changes instead of periodic updates by Dispel Confusion. That's just how this is starting to roll. As far as its odds of being introduced, I frankly kind of doubt it. The spellthief and warlock, both relatively high-powered base classes, weren't allowed and the duskblade (which I think is pretty close to the most powerful base class) will probably not be an exception. I do think, though, that we might see the beguiler and the dragon shaman, as those both introduce fairly interesting concepts. The duskblade is really not more than a bladesinger taken to the fourth exponent in power.
Asaris 12-01-06, 01:58 AM	Welcome! The new base classes in the PHBII are still limited -- you can't take levels in them without documentation on an AR or something. There's at least some chance of a new LGCS coming up in March or so, and so a possibility of some of these classes being added as core. I have no idea how likely this is.
Silverlute 12-01-06, 12:23 PM	As was mentioned, those classes are Limited access right now - you can find this out by looking in the Living Greyhawk Sourcebook. They are not mentioned, and therefore require documentation to use. I can tell you fairly confidently that Duskblade will be included as limited access, seeing as i already have access to it, via an award from a Special at a convention (not saying which). As for the favored class for elf being expanded - no, DnD doesn't work like that unless the DM says it does, and in LG, the DM (the circle) doesn't hand out extra power for free to one of the best races in the game, already. (Grey elf) So if you run into a cohort who happens to be a grey elf duskblade, that'll be mine (already have him as my backup).
The White Sorcerer 12-01-06, 12:53 PM	you can find this out by looking in the Living Greyhawk Sourcebook. Actually, you can't. Since Player's Handbook II isn't listed as a source, material from it isn't even limited yet. Unless I'm missing some sort of new LGCS.
Britt 12-01-06, 01:02 PM	Anything not listed in the LGCS requires campaign documentation. Ignore the term "Limited" or an official definition; the first sentence is what's important. There are books that have been out for a while that aren't on that list (BoED) but still have content in the campaign. I don't feel like going through the list to check, but I'm pretty sure that the list tells you which books have Core access items in them.
Grey1 12-01-06, 07:22 PM	Hi, everybody... Thanks for responding. I guessed as much, but it never hurts to ask (well, most of the time ;) ). Does anyone happen to have a definitive list of allowed classes that they could post? I've been looking through the LGCS stuff, and have pretty good idea now, but it would be nice to have some consolidated documentation... Again, thanks for everything. Grey.
Britt 12-01-06, 07:35 PM	If you mean everything that might be allowed in the campaign at all, look at the LGCS 'NPC Only' and 'Restricted' lists; everything else might show up in the campaign. Some have more or less likelihood, like Faerun or Eberron specific PrCs pretty much having 0 chance. Non-good requirement PrCs have less chance of showing up. Complete books have an ok chance of showing up, as do items from Core books like P2, D2, etc. If you mean everything that is allowed without extra documentation, that's just the 'Core' list in the LGCS. Unfortunately, there are just far too many rules items in existence to address every single one.
Maesto 12-01-06, 09:45 PM	Just to add my two cents to a previous post mentioning dragon shamans, I personally hope that they aren't included. The aura's are just ridiculous, especially at low level. The amount of healing that the fast-healing aura produces is absurd. Why would anybody ever take a cleric level dip ever again?
Jay_Ibero_911 12-01-06, 10:38 PM	Just to add my two cents to a previous post mentioning dragon shamans, I personally hope that they aren't included. The aura's are just ridiculous, especially at low level. The amount of healing that the fast-healing aura produces is absurd. Why would anybody ever take a cleric level dip ever again? Well for one, the DS aura only heals you up to half, and while that may reduce the healing burden, it won't replace a good cleric. A party full of half dead PC's won't ammount to much...The DR Aura on the other hand will prove more useful, especially at low level. Then again the healing aura is also more useful at low level, because at level 1, it doesn't really matter how much HP you have as long as you are conscious...So while the DS has great initial utility, it's overall power drops with level. Knight is a very nice class, and very flavorful. Beguiler is also interesting. But yes, Duskblade is the most powerful of the new classes without question. As for the favored class for elf being expanded - no, DnD doesn't work like that unless the DM says it does, and in LG, the DM (the circle) doesn't hand out extra power for free to one of the best races in the game, already. (Grey elf) Grey Elf...one of the best races in the game....I do hope you are joking...Good for little but min/maxed wizards...
Britt 12-01-06, 11:41 PM	I've heard multiple complaints about the Dragon Shaman, but after looking at it several times, it seems like a less powerful Marshal. That always makes me chuckle. :)
Mommy was an Orc 12-03-06, 01:14 AM	I've heard multiple complaints about the Dragon Shaman, but after looking at it several times, it seems like a less powerful Marshal. That always makes me chuckle. :) The big key is that Dragon Shamans don't have a primary stat for purposes of their aura and they get a d10 for hit points/2 good saves. A melee build who takes the Listen/Spot/Init one, the bonus to melee damage, and the heal up afterwards gains a lot for the cost of that +1 to BAB.
Jay_Ibero_911 12-03-06, 02:08 PM	The big key is that Dragon Shamans don't have a primary stat for purposes of their aura and they get a d10 for hit points/2 good saves. A melee build who takes the Listen/Spot/Init one, the bonus to melee damage, and the heal up afterwards gains a lot for the cost of that +1 to BAB. The Dragon Shaman Aura's don't have a key stat, but neither do the major aura's of the marshal...
Mommy was an Orc 12-03-06, 04:52 PM	The Dragon Shaman Aura's don't have a key stat, but neither do the major aura's of the marshal... The Marshal doesn't get 3 Auras at the cost of a single level...and needs a 12 Cha to take advantage of the regular auras. Let me be clear, I don't think Dragon Shaman is a particularly good class to take a lot of levels in, but one level is pretty good.
Simpi 12-04-06, 08:38 AM	The Marshal doesn't get 3 Auras at the cost of a single level...and needs a 12 Cha to take advantage of the regular auras. Let me be clear, I don't think Dragon Shaman is a particularly good class to take a lot of levels in, but one level is pretty good. So the end result would be that LG "core" options would enable even more "one level dip" builds (barbarian/extra rage, marshall/initiative aura, etc) for the character optimizers? Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
Lupo 12-04-06, 09:26 AM	So the end result would be that LG "core" options would enable even more "one level dip" builds (barbarian/extra rage, marshall/initiative aura, etc) for the character optimizers? Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad yea, but always at the cost of certain stat builds and other resources. maybe a barbarian build with one level of marshall makes sense, but at the cost of allocating some points into charisma, lower BAB, some hp and delayed barbarian features. mixing in some futher classes for additional "cool" features strains the stats even more and rapidly decreases the versatility and durability of a frontliner. doing a mix like marshall, bard, paladin (with devoted performer) creates a character that is a support wonder but helpless when alone. some new base classes might be fun, but the implementation should be considered seriously. so far none of the four additional base classes have tilted the scale for the power gamers after a hype for builds and mixes most have calmed down to a reasonable amount. as usual, some power-gamers will try to get away with the biggest cheese in town. when the implemetation follows the same way as the last one, only allowing new characters and levels to take new classes i don't see to severe problems. just for reference, how many favoured souls, marshalls, scouts and warmages are actually out there? nyrod's wonderfull database shows: 61 favoured souls app. 1.3% 79 marshalls app. 1.8% 90 scouts app. 2% 114 warmages app. 2.5% out of a total of 4463 characters listed ciao martin m.
Mommy was an Orc 12-04-06, 12:04 PM	So the end result would be that LG "core" options would enable even more "one level dip" builds (barbarian/extra rage, marshall/initiative aura, etc) for the character optimizers? Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad I don't think it is as bad as that - but it does represent a character option which is pretty powerful in terms of resource preservation without a real cost. +1 to spot/listen/init makes it significantly more difficult for a party to be surprised - it isn't as powerful as the Marshal +Cha to Initiative, but it is going to be extremely useful. +1 to damage, in a certain sense, negates the +1 penalty to BAB if you're a melee person. It doesn't do it entirely, but assuming two people go into melee in your party, it comes pretty close. Those two auras alone, I think justify the 1 level dip for a lot of melee types. And you can use both of them without interference. And then the Mass Lesser Vigor at will can really pump up the power of the cleric in the party - halving the need to heal really makes a cleric more powerful...if your Dragon Shaman is doing half the healing, then you've got a strong argument that the Cleric should be casting spells on you to make you a better melee expert. Again, I don't think it is broken, but it is pretty powerful for the cost - given that there is no need for a non-essential mental stat for a melee person.
PaulH 12-06-06, 08:49 PM	Hi If PHB II is going to be included (eventually) in LGCS, what about the new 'Complete' books. Thinking specifically of PrC's & Feats from Complete Mage. Cheers Paul H
Britt 12-06-06, 09:33 PM	Complete Mage is being reviewed for the next LGCS as well.
Sieylianna 12-06-06, 10:40 PM	Complete Mage is being reviewed for the next LGCS as well. I hope there isn't much allowed, the bulk of it is either not-suitable for LG (warlock prestige classes and the reserve spell feats) or is over-powered. The abjurant champion is great for gish builds and unseen seer allows you to qualify for arcane trickster with only one lost caster level. Ed
Japangirl 12-07-06, 12:51 AM	Lyric Thaumaturge is what I'm hoping to be allowed.
gomeztoo 12-07-06, 03:23 AM	Just to add my two cents to a previous post mentioning dragon shamans, I personally hope that they aren't included. My personal grip with the Dragon Shaman is that it takes away some of the flavor and power out of the dragon disciple prestige class. Why bother taking levels in DD when you can get a breath weapon attack every 1d4 rounds instead, without having to work to qualify? Also, DD means investment, and is often not so powerful until later levels. Because of this there are not that many of them. Once Dragon Shaman is allowed I bet we'll see them running about all over the place... which seems to me would not be very fitting with the flavor of the setting (as so much as we have one).
Madfox11 12-07-06, 04:41 AM	I hope there isn't much allowed, the bulk of it is either not-suitable for LG (warlock prestige classes and the reserve spell feats) or is over-powered. The abjurant champion is great for gish builds and unseen seer allows you to qualify for arcane trickster with only one lost caster level. I have heard people complain about the Reserve feats, but I really wonder what is so bad about them. The design idea behind them is to give the spellcasters to do something every round in every fight just like the fighters to prevent the "rest-after-every-fight" syndrome (and at the same to prevent PCs blasting opponents away in relatively easy fights). Most of the additional abilities the reserve feats provide are on the weak side for their APLs. I have not yet looked at the prestige classes (with the exception of the abjurant champion), spells and magic items yet. Is the abjurant champion really that good? It only allows the gish to remove his armor, and considering the fact that Spellswords and mithril armor generates the same effect, albeit undisspelable, doesn't make this prestige class more powerful than those already in the game.
Britt 12-07-06, 05:32 AM	Ok, yeah, the breath weapon is a bit much. I'll have to look at it some more.
Mommy was an Orc 12-07-06, 10:12 AM	My personal grip with the Dragon Shaman is that it takes away some of the flavor and power out of the dragon disciple prestige class. Why bother taking levels in DD when you can get a breath weapon attack every 1d4 rounds instead, without having to work to qualify? Dragon Disciple has a breath weapon attack? Seriously, no one should be taking Dragon Disciple for the breath weapon attack, you're taking it for the stat boosts for a melee build. +4 Str, some natural armor in 4 levels is quite nice for a lot of builds, even with the 2 BAB penalty. Dragon Shaman is somewhat similar - the Breath Weapon is an okay option for when you can't do something else. But you're usually going to be wanting to do something else.
Mommy was an Orc 12-07-06, 11:01 AM	I have not yet looked at the prestige classes (with the exception of the abjurant champion), spells and magic items yet. Is the abjurant champion really that good? It only allows the gish to remove his armor, and considering the fact that Spellswords and mithril armor generates the same effect, albeit undisspelable, doesn't make this prestige class more powerful than those already in the game. Yes, it is. Especially in a game which caps, such as Living Greyhawk. d10 hp, full BAB, full caster progression, and bizarrely easy prereqs? Just look at the following builds: Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/PrC 2 with full caster - +11 BAB, 14th level caster. Once +6 BAB/Arcane Strike comes into play at 9th...take Still Spell and use it at will to wear whatever Armor you like and wield weapons without concern for hands. Paladin 2/Fighter 4/Sorcerer 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 3. +14 BAB, 4th level spells, 14th level caster. Monk 2/Sorcerer 1/Paladin 2/Fighter 1/Abjurant Champion 4/Enlightened Fist 4 - and note, I'm arguing against myself here with my character who is in play at 5th and mostly screwed by the FAQ. I have an out, but this is significantly more powerful than my original build of Monk 2/Sorc 1/Paladin 2/Enlightened Fist 10. There's more, but those are the simple ones. ------ Plus, don't ignore that an Abjurant Champ can cast Shield for Shield AC of 4+Abjurant Champ level as a swift action. An Abjurant Champ 5 with Greater Mage Armor can have a 30 AC from casting that and Shield before any other items or things such as Monk AC, Dex, Rings of Protection, Alter Self, etc...my Monk up above will have an AC of 44 from Ascetic Mage, Shield, Mage Armor, Dex, and Alter Self(20 Dex, 20 Cha after crafting items)
trollbill 12-07-06, 11:35 AM	Actually, my biggest concern with the Dragon Shaman is people running multi-classed Dragon Shaman/Marshal/Bard/Warchanter builds that uber-buff the party. Marshal/Bard/Warchanters are already powerful as it is.
Simpi 12-07-06, 11:36 AM	Issue with breath weapon would also probably mean no one bothers going for sorcerer with draconic feats anymore. Why use feats when you get it naturally for no cost? Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
trollbill 12-07-06, 01:31 PM	Issue with breath weapon would also probably mean no one bothers going for sorcerer with draconic feats anymore. Why use feats when you get it naturally for no cost? Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad As a sorcerer with Draconic Heritage feats I can answer this. Draconic Breath has twice the area (until 12th level) as a Dragon Shaman's breath weapon, and can essentially deal twice the damage. You can also use it every single round instead of waiting 1d4, as long as you have spell slots left. And I haven't run out of spell slots with my sorcerer since 4th level. It's still very worth the feat, though I admit the pressense of the Dragon Shaman does make me feel a little less special.
Mommy was an Orc 12-07-06, 02:00 PM	Issue with breath weapon would also probably mean no one bothers going for sorcerer with draconic feats anymore. Why use feats when you get it naturally for no cost? Because the power level of using the breath weapon isn't generally worth it at APL. Honestly, is anyone really worried about taking a 5d6 Breath Weapon at 10th level - that's an average of 17 hp of damage if you fail the save...the 10th level caster tossing an empowered fireball does 52 hp of damage
Britt 12-07-06, 02:43 PM	the 10th level caster tossing an empowered fireball does 52 hp of damage Yes, but how many empowered fireballs does that caster get? The dragon shaman gets an infinite number of 5d6 breath weapons. I think it's more balanced at higher levels, but a level 4 character with infinite 2d6 AoEs/day is a bit much; that can equalize a combat very quickly. Notice, though, that I'm saying "a bit much". I'm not saying it's totally broken and should never have been allowed.
trollbill 12-07-06, 02:59 PM	Yes, but how many empowered fireballs does that caster get? The dragon shaman gets an infinite number of 5d6 breath weapons. I think it's more balanced at higher levels, but a level 4 character with infinite 2d6 AoEs/day is a bit much; that can equalize a combat very quickly. Notice, though, that I'm saying "a bit much". I'm not saying it's totally broken and should never have been allowed. Well, if you're a 10th level sorcerer you could probably kick off 4 of them, 7 with a lesser metamagic rod of empower spell. Given I seldom run into more than 3 encounters in one day in an LG mod, that would seem more than enough. However, the real strength of this breath weapon is that it allows a fighter-type to do area-effect energy damage, rather than spellcasters who could usually do this anyway.
LachlarlanIII 12-07-06, 03:04 PM	Plus, don't ignore that an Abjurant Champ can cast Shield for Shield AC of 4+Abjurant Champ level as a swift action. An Abjurant Champ 5 with Greater Mage Armor can have a 30 AC from casting that and Shield before any other items or things such as Monk AC, Dex, Rings of Protection, Alter Self, etc...my Monk up above will have an AC of 44 from Ascetic Mage, Shield, Mage Armor, Dex, and Alter Self(20 Dex, 20 Cha after crafting items) No they couldn't. The max they could get from those two spells is 25 AC. Greater Mage Armor is a conjuration, and as such, an Abjurant Champion cannot add his level to it. 10 Base + 9 Shield + 6 GMA = 25 AC.
Mommy was an Orc 12-07-06, 04:00 PM	Yes, but how many empowered fireballs does that caster get? The dragon shaman gets an infinite number of 5d6 breath weapons. I think it's more balanced at higher levels, but a level 4 character with infinite 2d6 AoEs/day is a bit much; that can equalize a combat very quickly. Notice, though, that I'm saying "a bit much". I'm not saying it's totally broken and should never have been allowed. I wouldn't regard that as broken at all. If anything, they seem to have overcompensated for it. With 1d4 rounds inbetween uses, the most anyone is doing per combat is 2, maybe 3. In LG, that's basically 6-9 uses a day at max. Well within reach of a Sorcerer 4 with Dragon Breath - except he does 4d6 with his 2nd level spells, not 2d6.
Mommy was an Orc 12-07-06, 04:07 PM	No they couldn't. The max they could get from those two spells is 25 AC. Greater Mage Armor is a conjuration, and as such, an Abjurant Champion cannot add his level to it. 10 Base + 9 Shield + 6 GMA = 25 AC. Okay, so my Monk would only have a 40 AC at 12th level with zero gold invested in defensive magic items...Shield normally isn't a great investment in a spell - that I would be able to Quicken it pumps up my AC by 8 and makes it very worthwhile to cast.
_m_ 12-07-06, 05:29 PM	Yes, but how many empowered fireballs does that caster get? The dragon shaman gets an infinite number of 5d6 breath weapons. at apl 10, if its a sorcerer or a high int wizzard... 10+ish mixed between empowered and not.
Sieylianna 12-07-06, 05:59 PM	Issue with breath weapon would also probably mean no one bothers going for sorcerer with draconic feats anymore. Why use feats when you get it naturally for no cost? My sorcerer with draconic feats would really like to see access to dragonheart mage. That really improves the breath weapon. Ed
Sieylianna 12-07-06, 06:00 PM	No they couldn't. The max they could get from those two spells is 25 AC. Greater Mage Armor is a conjuration, and as such, an Abjurant Champion cannot add his level to it. 10 Base + 9 Shield + 6 GMA = 25 AC. Except mage armor is also a conjuration and the class description specifically refers to augmenting it in several places. Ed
_m_ 12-07-06, 06:34 PM	Except mage armor is also a conjuration and the class description specifically refers to augmenting it in several places. Ed iirc, abj champ is the class that spoils itself. its blindingly obvious its meant to work, but its rules dont allow itself to actually do anything.
PaulH 12-07-06, 07:07 PM	Hi Actually - if Dragonheart Mage (Races of Dragon) ends up allowed, that 5D6 starts off as 10D6, and at 10th lvl, 15D6. (2D6 - 3D6 per spell level) (Plus 8 levels of spellcasting & 3 Draconic feats in the 10 levels). Cheers Paul H PS My fav. PrC from Complete Mage for LG is Ultimate Magus. (Grey Elf Wiz/Warmage mix).
trollbill 12-07-06, 09:18 PM	Hi Actually - if Dragonheart Mage (Races of Dragon) ends up allowed, that 5D6 starts off as 10D6, and at 10th lvl, 15D6. (2D6 - 3D6 per spell level) (Plus 8 levels of spellcasting & 3 Draconic feats in the 10 levels). Huh? What? Where are you getting this from? I am not quite sure what you are claiming, but either way it's wrong. If you are trying to say a Dragon Shaman can use Dragonheart Mage to enhance it's breath weapon, that is incorrect. The PrC only enhances breaths from the Draconic Breath feat, not from any other source. And Draconic Breath is based on spell levels. Since the lowest level you can be and have a level of Dragonheart Mage is 6, and you lose a level of spellcaster to do this, you start out with a max breath weapon of only 4d6. When you get up to Sor5/DhM6, its max damage is only 8d8 while a straight sorcerer could be casting AoE spells that do 11d6 damage. At Sor5/DhM10 the breath weapon maxes out at 18d6. Admittadly pretty nice, but a straight sorcerer could still be casting spells that deal 15d6 and not lose out on getting 7th level spells. Now there are some benefits to the breath weapon over spells, namely in the fact that it is a supernatural ability, but that has disadvantages too since there is no way to metamagic it or otherwise augment it unless you can get a hold of the Breath Weapon spells from the spell compendium. Overall, Dragonheart Mage is worth it for the extra skills, HP, saves, feats and enhanced breath weapon, but you are sacrificing 2 caster levels to accomplish this.
Japangirl 12-07-06, 09:41 PM	Some potential power issues with Reserve feats (note I said potential!!): 1) Most of the nuking ones are Supernatural abilities, so SR doesn't apply. When you can potentially nuke something that is supposed to be basically immune to magic, it takes a lot of the challenge away from the monster (one of the big problems with many constructs, for example, is the infinite SR). 2) The teleport feat is broken and should never ever be allowed. Takes a standard action to get out of a grapple with no concentration check or spell used, and then you can move further away afterwards. Because it's the feat, it doesn't require a word either so it's basically a Silent Dimension Door with no concentration check. At will. Absolutely stupid. That's what I came up with offhand, I might add to this later if I think of something else.
Simpi 12-08-06, 01:01 AM	it takes a lot of the challenge away from the monster (one of the big problems with many constructs, for example, is the infinite SR) Huh? I thought golems (and other such things) were already essentially neutered by various 'orb' spells which allow no spell resistance, taking away yet another "can only be dealt by fighters" aspect of the game. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
Britt 12-08-06, 01:07 AM	Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the "let's make some more evocation spells and call them conjuration" spells, aka orbs.
gomeztoo 12-08-06, 02:57 AM	Dragon Disciple has a breath weapon attack? Seriously, no one should be taking Dragon Disciple for the breath weapon attack, you're taking it for the stat boosts for a melee build. +4 Str, some natural armor in 4 levels is quite nice for a lot of builds, even with the 2 BAB penalty. Ofcourse. But apparently, people thought that a breath weapon was too powerful to give to a prestige class that isn't all that powerful, and for which you need a sub-optimal class combo to qualify for. So I have a bunch of extra spells too low to actually matter much (though the resurgence saved the day last time...). So you have statboosts... they are nice but there are other wasy to get bonus on Str... A 2d8 breath attack (at APl 10+, who cares?) that you can only use once a day? Come on, it wouldn't have hurt to give a recurring breath attack. But people didn't, and I figured that it was due to balance. But now they give it to a base class?
gomeztoo 12-08-06, 03:12 AM	Because the power level of using the breath weapon isn't generally worth it at APL. Honestly, is anyone really worried about taking a 5d6 Breath Weapon at 10th level - that's an average of 17 hp of damage if you fail the save...the 10th level caster tossing an empowered fireball does 52 hp of damage And a lvl 10 Dragon Disciple does 2d8 at lvl 10, and only once a day. If a base class is BETTER at 3rd lvl than a lvl 10 prestige class, there is something wrong imo. Maybe it just means that DD suck. But I personally think that, combined with the buffing auras, the Dragon Shaman is just a bit too good. Besides that, I think it isn't very appropriate for PCs in LG. In the same way that you don't want everyone to play asherati or centaurs (which I though was a mistake), you don't want everyone to play dragon shamans, since they should be quite rare.
wooti 12-08-06, 08:20 AM	No they couldn't. The max they could get from those two spells is 25 AC. Greater Mage Armor is a conjuration, and as such, an Abjurant Champion cannot add his level to it. 10 Base + 9 Shield + 6 GMA = 25 AC. Even without this ability Abjurant Champion is just too powerful, it is so good that I would take with my straight mage with no interest in being a gish. It give good BAB d10 hit dice and a full spellcasting progression (and swift castings of low level Adjuration spells). Let us compare to Eldrich knight (maybe not the best gish class but a great base line), Eldrich knight get a good BAB d6 hi dice and the first level does not give caster progression. In every area Abjurant Champion is equal or better, and in addition has a whole lots of useful class features. It does require one fairly useless feat to get into (maybe two, if you are a non-elf straight wizard) but that is more than paid off in how great it is.
Madfox11 12-08-06, 10:31 AM	1) Most of the nuking ones are Supernatural abilities, so SR doesn't apply. When you can potentially nuke something that is supposed to be basically immune to magic, it takes a lot of the challenge away from the monster (one of the big problems with many constructs, for example, is the infinite SR). And this is different how from the various orb spells or arc of lightning? 2) The teleport feat is broken and should never ever be allowed. Takes a standard action to get out of a grapple with no concentration check or spell used, and then you can move further away afterwards. Because it's the feat, it doesn't require a word either so it's basically a Silent Dimension Door with no concentration check. At will. Absolutely stupid. People are complaining about the reserve feats in general, and not about specific ones. Mind you, I really don't know whether this effect is so bad. There are many dimension door like spells and abilities available already, some of them at 1st level spells. Of course, without those spells this feat might be a tad too powerful. Personally I am more worried about the Elemental Summoning one... earth elementals are way too good as spies . As for the Dragon Disciple, Gomeztoo, it is NOT a weak prestige class. It is for fighter-types who use it to boost their Strength to unparalled heights and gain some extra hit points along with it. That breath weapon was rediculously weak to begin with. I have played a dragon disciple in a home campaign and I never ever used it. There were always better options...
gomeztoo 12-08-06, 12:46 PM	As for the Dragon Disciple, Gomeztoo, it is NOT a weak prestige class. I didn't say it was weak. But t isn't that powerful either. Statboosts/hp are nice, ofcourse, but you don't progress in caster level, and do not have a fighters BAB or feats. You get an extra attack at level 8 at the earliest. I think that offsets some of the advantages, especially if your PC didn't actually start out with 20 Strength. DD looks balanced (less for my PC due to some silly choices), but I think it would have benefited a bit from a breath attack that can be used more often. At least I don't think it means giving a 1st lvl PC class unlimited breath attack is a good idea. And I actually DO use that breath attack, such as against opponents that are very hard to hit, have DR, or that fly where I can't. Ok, so... using it against the clay golem wasn't smart...
Mommy was an Orc 12-08-06, 01:17 PM	I didn't say it was weak. But t isn't that powerful either. Statboosts/hp are nice, ofcourse, but you don't progress in caster level, and do not have a fighters BAB or feats. You get an extra attack at level 8 at the earliest. I think that offsets some of the advantages, especially if your PC didn't actually start out with 20 Strength. That's looking at it in the wrong way - you're focused on the minor aspects of the class rather than what the PrC is good at - you don't need a 20 Strength to make Dragon Disciple very worthwhile if you start off with a 16 Str or so. And you're wrong about attacks: They get a bite/claw/claw attack at 7th - these can be used as secondary attacks if you're not using them for anything else. i.e. you always get the bite. A Hexblade 4/Fighter 1 qualifies for Dragon Disciple. Gets the extra attack just one level later. So as an example, my Monk 2/Sorc 1/Paladin 2/Dragon Disciple 2 will get 5 attacks in a round when that happens. Flurry Kick/Kick and Bite/Claw/Claw. Add Fist of Stone for bonus to hit and Chill Touch to weaken my opponent(and do up to 5d6 in a round - Practiced Spellcaster...)
gomeztoo 12-08-06, 04:03 PM	You only get the bite as secondary attack, not the claws. And sure, some combos work better than others. I know I suck at making efficient chars - no need to rub that in :P I think DD is pretty ok, I never said it was weak. But I think it was not ment for the 4-lvl barbarian with a dip in sorcerer just to qualify for the stat-boosting PC. Or maybe it was and I totally missed what the class was about. Nor was it intended for the hexmaster... that class came later. And I also know that the one/day breath weapon is in line with the half-dragon template. It would have been fun if I could use it more often though. Anyway, the point is not that the DD should have it, but that the dragon shaman shoudln't.
Japangirl 12-08-06, 07:21 PM	Actually, Mommy is correct. The monk gets his flurry of natural weapons (ie feet/knees/elbows/head/whatever) followed by bite/claw/claw as secondaries, all at a -5 penalty. For an example, look to the troll hunter in the MM. He has class levels and multiple natural attacks, and gets his iterative attacks followed by his all natural attacks.
Jay_Ibero_911 12-08-06, 07:37 PM	Dragon Shaman doesn't really scale well in terms of power...It's most powerful at low levels, but just doesn't keep up the power later on. Sure you have many unlimited use abilities, but it's about on par with the warlock in terms of ability to really hurt. About as useful as a bard, marshal...similar classes. You get slightly different marshal auras(though non-stat dependant), lay on hands-like ability(albeit enhanced), and a situationally useful breath weapon. It's a durable and versatile class, granted, but it lacks the ability to do anything really well except provide support. It's a solid class, but certainly not broken. I personally don't think I'd even bother playin one, myself, as I don't like being support...
Sieylianna 12-10-06, 10:58 PM	Let us compare to Eldrich knight (maybe not the best gish class but a great base line), Eldrich knight get a good BAB d6 hi dice and the first level does not give caster progression. In every area Abjurant Champion is equal or better, and in addition has a whole lots of useful class features. It does require one fairly useless feat to get into (maybe two, if you are a non-elf straight wizard) but that is more than paid off in how great it is. Combat casting is a useless feat, but the ability to use your BAB as your caster level negates the need for the practiced spellcaster feat. I discovered another really neat thing about Unseen Seer via my home game succubus spy (outsider 6/rogue 1/sorcerer 1/Unseen Seer 6). The class allows you to pick up divination spells from any class, by fortunate coincidence, both Golem Strike and Grave Strike are divination spells. Ed
Kelios_Lyonsmane 12-11-06, 11:45 AM	Even without this ability Abjurant Champion is just too powerful, it is so good that I would take with my straight mage with no interest in being a gish. It give good BAB d10 hit dice and a full spellcasting progression (and swift castings of low level Adjuration spells). Let us compare to Eldrich knight (maybe not the best gish class but a great base line), Eldrich knight get a good BAB d6 hi dice and the first level does not give caster progression. In every area Abjurant Champion is equal or better, and in addition has a whole lots of useful class features. It does require one fairly useless feat to get into (maybe two, if you are a non-elf straight wizard) but that is more than paid off in how great it is. I admit i didint read the Dragon shaman but after hearing about the auras it would be great for a Cleric of say ... Bahamut to get a lvl in in the classe for the healing and DR auras if only to save on healing spells . Unlike many players when i make my character i look for a logic behind it like the exemple above : Cleric of a dragon god with a dragon shaman lvl ( it fits ) and not taking lvls in classes or Pclasses just to get bonuses . Now , ofcorse if i wanted to go Eldrith Knight and the Abjurant Champion is better on all points for the same kind of character i would take the Abjurant Champion ( I'm not THAT stupid ). And speaking of New classes and Mods do you guys think we will be allowed the Battle Sorcerer variant from Unearted Arcana for the sorcerer one day ?
kenobi65 12-11-06, 12:13 PM	And speaking of New classes and Mods do you guys think we will be allowed the Battle Sorcerer variant from Unearted Arcana for the sorcerer one day ? I wouldn't count on it. UA has been out for several years now; if anything from that book were going to be incorporated into LG, it would likely have happened already.
Kelios_Lyonsmane 12-11-06, 12:35 PM	I wouldn't count on it. UA has been out for several years now; if anything from that book were going to be incorporated into LG, it would likely have happened already. Thought so ty :(
Vamroc 12-12-06, 11:38 PM	Dragon Shaman is over rated. Oh wow look your a buff monkey that's great. So when the party gets owned because a lot of monsters can use dispell magic as a spell like ablity. That leaves you up sh*t creek. Because you have proficency only with simple weapons and your only deffensive options are light and medium armor. Oh yeah you get a breath weapon at fourth but its a lame 2d6 plus 1d6 every two levels. You don't have a caster level either which is really bad if you have party members with SR because it becomes nearly impossible to overcome there spell resistance.
Britt 12-12-06, 11:49 PM	Draconic Aura is a supernatural ability, which means it can't be dispelled and it bypasss SR.
_m_ 12-18-06, 05:35 PM	... i like your christmas list britt... its stylish. mine would be 'slightly' different... but the idea is sound.
Britt 12-18-06, 05:52 PM	Thanks. It's been on my list for four years now and noone ever delivers. Maybe someday...
_m_ 12-18-06, 06:59 PM	Thanks. It's been on my list for four years now and noone ever delivers. Maybe someday... does she play d&d? maybe you could give her free access to vorpal in exchange for a date.
Britt 12-18-06, 07:01 PM	I somehow doubt she does. Besides, that would be unethical :p
_m_ 12-18-06, 07:24 PM	I somehow doubt she does. Besides, that would be unethical :p someone needs to think long and hard about their alignemnts. cn ftw my friend.
Japangirl 12-18-06, 11:47 PM	Yeah but you have to be sneaky about being CN, or you lose that coveted Circle position. Don't let anybody know you let her have vorpal!
timerino 12-19-06, 06:41 PM	I have heard people complain about the Reserve feats, but I really wonder what is so bad about them. The design idea behind them is to give the spellcasters to do something every round in every fight just like the fighters to prevent the "rest-after-every-fight" syndrome (and at the same to prevent PCs blasting opponents away in relatively easy fights). Most of the additional abilities the reserve feats provide are on the weak side for their APLs. I like Reserve Feats; however, in LG we don't always get the properly balanced tables. As such, an NPC with reserve feat can decimate a party if the encounter (terrain and situational CRs) is not built correctly. My spellcasters would love to have Reserve Spells; however, in more than one LG mod at a con, we survived because the other team ran out of spells and our party didn't have the necessary artillery/range attacks. timerino