Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gwumph 01-06-07, 04:45 AM	Hey Guys Bit of a discussion here. If you pin someone do have to make a pin attempt each round or do you maintain the pin until the oppenent succeeds in a escape check?? please cite rules, pages, books. Cheers Gwumph
frupton 01-06-07, 05:20 AM	You maintain it until your opponent successfully escapes. If You’re Pinned by an Opponent When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a -4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling. From the Grappling section under Combat. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#ifYourePinnedbyanOppo nent
Gwumph 01-06-07, 07:55 AM	Agreed. We read that bit, but "When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. " is the part the is under discussion. Why does it say 1 round? Does that mean after 1 round you are no longer held immobile?
pedr 01-06-07, 11:22 AM	Um. "... for one round." Surely that means that at the end of the round (just before the pinner's next action) the pin ends. It's reasonably straightforward, I'd have thought.
CSHunt68 01-06-07, 11:42 AM	Um. "... for one round." Surely that means that at the end of the round (just before the pinner's next action) the pin ends. It's reasonably straightforward, I'd have thought. Yep, it IS reasonably clear. When you pin someone, you pin them _for one round_. You need to roll next round to maintain the pin, unless they've already escaped.
Arinaad 01-06-07, 01:13 PM	remember that grappling and pinning occur in stages. It takes one successfull grapple check to be grappling, and a second to pin. Once the opponent is pinned, on thier turn they may make a grapple check to break the pin (aka fight thier way to be grappling) and in the event they have multiple attacks may attempt to either break the grapple, or pin you in turn.
CSHunt68 01-06-07, 02:27 PM	Right. And if the opponent doesn't break free, the pinner must make a successful grapple check to maintain the pin, as it only lasts one round.
frupton 01-06-07, 03:16 PM	OK, I'm confused now. If the pinner has to make a check to maintain the pin every round, how does he get to do the other actions under "when you're pinning your opponent." Pin Your Opponent You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below). If You’re Pinning an Opponent You can attempt to damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check, you can attempt to use your opponent’s weapon against him, or you can attempt to move the grapple (all described above). At your option, you can prevent a pinned opponent from speaking. You can use a disarm action to remove or grab away a well secured object worn by a pinned opponent, but he gets a +4 bonus on his roll to resist your attempt. You may voluntarily release a pinned character as a free action; if you do so, you are no longer considered to be grappling that character (and vice versa). You can’t draw or use a weapon (against the pinned character or any other character), escape another’s grapple, retrieve a spell component, pin another character, or break another’s pin while you are pinning an opponent. The opposed grapple check to pin your opponent is "made in place of an attack." Does that mean if you have more than one attack per round, the pinning (establishing or maintaining) takes one attack, and you can use your remaining attacks to perform the attack-type actions under "If you're pinning your opponent"? Combatants with only 1 attack per round could then never do the additional actions? Would these attack/round have to come from BAB>5, or if you have a claw/claw/bite, do you get 3 attacks per round?
Mommy was an Orc 01-06-07, 06:44 PM	Well, let's say you're a Monk with flurry and an iterative attack - you do 3 grapple checks - one to pin, and then two more to do damage. That said - the primary purpose of a pin is to neutralize an opponent, not to damage him. My Monk pinned a Black Dragon at one point(small one) and clamped its mouth shut. It couldn't use its breath weapon, it couldn't effectively claw me, so the power attacking BDF walked over to it and killed it...
ShinAkuma2 01-06-07, 11:14 PM	It's says he's held immobile for one round. NOT that he's pinned for one round. A Pinned opponent has a dex of 0, meaning a mod of -5 (see the Combat Modifiers table). THIS is the immobilization that lasts for one round. Point the first) You can move a grapple as a standard action, after making a successful grapple check. You get a bonus to this check if your opponent is pinned, assuming there is no one else in the grapple. Pinning takes an attack, moving is a standard...If pinning only lasts one round, then it is impossible to move a pinned opponent. Point the second) The feat Earth's Embrace, and the Reaping Mauler class abilities Sleeper Lock and Devestating Grapple all rely on holding a pin round after round. If a pin only lasts for a round before automatically breaking, then these three abilities can never be used. Point the third) The SpC spell Spiritjaws, using all the normal rules for grappling, can attempt to pin an opponent. It reads, "A pinned opponent is held immobile and must break the pin before it can escape the grapple." This implies that getting out of the pin is not automatic. (Obviously the weakest of my points, but it's there.) And finally) Does it even make sense that you'd have a hold on a guy so tight that he can barely move at all (he's just outside of helpless), and after that you'd just let him go? If nothing else, WHY would the pin end after a round? Would these attack/round have to come from BAB>5, or if you have a claw/claw/bite, do you get 3 attacks per round? If you have natural weapons, you can only use one when grappling. If you're pinning an opponent, you can't use them at all, since you're unable to use weapons (other than the opponent's light weapon, if he has one).
frupton 01-06-07, 11:34 PM	If you have natural weapons, you can only use one when grappling. If you're pinning an opponent, you can't use them at all, since you're unable to use weapons (other than the opponent's light weapon, if he has one). To clarify, I'm not suggesting that you can claw and bite your opponent while he's pinned. I'm asking what sort of creature would be able to take the actions listed as those one can take when one has somone pinned, if it takes an attack action to maintain the pin each round.
CSHunt68 01-06-07, 11:40 PM	He's not pinned for one round, he's "held immobile" for one round? Oh, then the pin ends, I take it - but he's still immobile. ??? 1. If you want to move someone in a grapple, I guess you shouldn't pin them. That sorta makes sense, doesn't it? You can either essentially lie on top of someone and pinion their arms, or grab onto them and carry them off. 2. If you make your grapple check to pin for a second round, you've *maintained* the pin for a round, and those abilities apply. 3. The spell specifies what it does, which is not the same as specified in the rules for grappling and pinning. Why would the rule even specify "for one round", if it was meant to be carried forward from round to round? Why not just terminate the sentence after "(but not helpless)"?
Gwumph 01-07-07, 12:05 AM	Shak "A Pinned opponent has a dex of 0, meaning a mod of -5 (see the Combat Modifiers table). THIS is the immobilization that lasts for one round. where is stated in the rules?? Cheers Simon
Arvagor 01-07-07, 12:20 AM	Gwumph raises a good point... There is nothing that says a pinned opponent has a Dex of 0 -- if he was helpless, then that would be the case, but that condition is explicitly not in effect when an opponent is pinned. While the text says the pinned opponent is immobile, that is not a condition defined anywhere in the rules; I believe that the -4 penalty to AC a creature receives for being pinned is meant to reflect the "immobile" psuedo-condition.
ShinAkuma2 01-07-07, 10:50 AM	1. If you want to move someone in a grapple, I guess you shouldn't pin them. That sorta makes sense, doesn't it? You can either essentially lie on top of someone and pinion their arms, or grab onto them and carry them off. First off, pin doesn't necessarily mean a wrestling pin. It means any hold that immobilizes an enemy, which could be a bear hug, a full nelson, or anything that makes him unable to defend himself. You don't have to lay down to pin someone, which is why it's possible to be pinned AND prone, making your AC even worse. Secondly, why even have that +4 to the check when moving a pinned opponent if it's impossible? 2. If you make your grapple check to pin for a second round, you've *maintained* the pin for a round, and those abilities apply. No, you haven't. If the pin automatically breaks, and you get it again, you have not maintained it. You have re-established the pin. That would reset the round counter (for Devestating Grapple) every round. 3. The spell specifies what it does, which is not the same as specified in the rules for grappling and pinning. Actually, everything it does is exactly like the normal rules for grappling and pinning. Occam's Razor: The simplest explanation is usually the best one. Why should it follow every normal rule for grappling, then change one section, especially without pointing it out? Every other spell that does something similar to an existing tactic/feat/spell/whatever will make the comparison with, "Unlike a normal pin," or the like. Doesn't it make more sense for it just grapple normally? Why would the rule even specify "for one round", if it was meant to be carried forward from round to round? Why not just terminate the sentence after "(but not helpless)"? Because the 0 dex lasts for one round. Pinned =/= held immobile, that's only part of it. You're "held immobile" for one round, but the pin lasts until it's broken. Gwumph raises a good point... There is nothing that says a pinned opponent has a Dex of 0 -- if he was helpless, then that would be the case, but that condition is explicitly not in effect when an opponent is pinned. While the text says the pinned opponent is immobile, that is not a condition defined anywhere in the rules; I believe that the -4 penalty to AC a creature receives for being pinned is meant to reflect the "immobile" psuedo-condition. Combat Modifiers section of your PHB (which I already pointed out). Defender is…Pinned -4 AC Melee, +0 AC Ranged, footnote 4 4. Treat the defender’s Dexterity as 0 (-5 modifier). Rogues can sneak attack helpless or pinned defenders. Your are "held immobile" for one round. Immobile means unable to move, just as if you were paralyzed, asleep, tied up, etc. If A) You are held immobile for one round and B) immobile means having 0 dex and C) a pinned opponent has 0 dex then D) A pinned opponent has 0 dex for one round. After that round, the pinned character no longer has a 0 dex (he is no longer immobile), but he is still pinned until he can break it or the attacker lets go.
Arvagor 01-07-07, 12:34 PM	Combat Modifiers section of your PHB (which I already pointed out).Fair enough; I forgot the 'pinned' footnote, and was thinking you were simply pointing out that the table points out that a Dex of 0 gives you -5 Dex penalty. As usual, it would be nice if the 'pinned' modifiers were actually described under the section for being pinned. ;) (Of course, it's redundant to point out that rogues can sneak attack pinned defenders -- since that defender is in a grapple, and thus denied his Dex bonus to anyone outside the grapple, he can already be sneak attacked...)
ShinAkuma2 01-07-07, 01:24 PM	Fair enough; I forgot the 'pinned' footnote, and was thinking you were simply pointing out that the table points out that a Dex of 0 gives you -5 Dex penalty. As usual, it would be nice if the 'pinned' modifiers were actually described under the section for being pinned. ;) Oh, I certainly agree. The poor organization of the Core 3 lends itself to a lot of misinterpreted/ignored rules. For instance, the DMG notes that an incorporeal creature is effected normally only by a Ghost Touch weapon or a force effect. It neglects to mention, as the Monster Manual does, that Positive/Negative energy will also work normally. Hopefully 4.0 will be a little cleaner on a lot of things, including these blasted grappling rules!
Dr.Cornelius 01-07-07, 06:10 PM	The pin rules are full of holes. For example, you can attack with a light weapon while grappling, but not while pinning. You can attempt to use your opponent's light weapon against him, but strangely you cannot use your opponent's weapon against him if he simply drops it. The most effective pin tactic is to have one character establish and maintain the pin and the second character attack or apply restraints. Here is the question: does a pin constitute a "Helpless Defender" (PHB p.153), thus qualifying the second character's attack for a Coup de Grace?
Arvagor 01-07-07, 07:00 PM	Here is the question: does a pin constitute a "Helpless Defender" (PHB p.153), thus qualifying the second character's attack for a Coup de Grace? No, a pinned creature is explicitly not helpless (PHB 157); therefore, it is not eligible for a coup de grace.
Gwumph 01-07-07, 11:18 PM	Hey Thanks everyone. While we will still have to discuss as a group, you guys have given us a much better points to discuss. This is without a doubt my favorite thing about the forums, is the open discussion of various rules which allows all of us to better enjoy the game. Cheers Gwumph
_m_ 01-09-07, 10:08 PM	No, you haven't. If the pin automatically breaks, and you get it again, you have not maintained it. You have re-established the pin. That would reset th i disagree: whilst the pin states it only lasts one round, it dosent break until after you make the check to maintain it. so rather than it breaking every round before you have a chance to do anything, it breaks every round if you fail to / decide not to maintain it, hence allowing earths embrace, and the reaping mauler class. because technically the intial pin didn't occour till after you roled your pinning check, the '1 round' time would be complete just after that stage of the subsequent round, hence allowing, in effect, a maintaining roll to be made first.
ShinAkuma2 01-09-07, 10:37 PM	i disagree: whilst the pin states it only lasts one round, it dosent break until after you make the check to maintain it. so rather than it breaking every round before you have a chance to do anything, it breaks every round if you fail to / decide not to maintain it, hence allowing earths embrace, and the reaping mauler class. because technically the intial pin didn't occour till after you roled your pinning check, the '1 round' time would be complete just after that stage of the subsequent round, hence allowing, in effect, a maintaining roll to be made first. It would be nice if it actually worked like that, but things that last for "1 round" always end right before the attacker's initiative. For instance, if a Monk Stuns an opponent for one round, he is no longer Stunned by the time the Monk's next turn comes up (meaning that Monk doesn't get any benefit from the loss of Dex, etc, for that attack). Believe me, I've considered many views while crafting this argument, and yours is one of them. It just doesn't hold water when compared to every other effect that lasts for "1 round".
_m_ 01-10-07, 06:53 PM	It would be nice if it actually worked like that, but things that last for "1 round" always end right before the attacker's initiative. For instance, if a Monk Stuns an opponent for one round, he is no longer Stunned by the time the Monk's next turn comes up (meaning that Monk doesn't get any benefit from the loss of Dex, etc, for that attack). Believe me, I've considered many views while crafting this argument, and yours is one of them. It just doesn't hold water when compared to every other effect that lasts for "1 round". indeed, but if that were the case, then reaping maulers couldn't exist.
Gwumph 01-10-07, 07:23 PM	m that's why the argument is that a pin lasts round after round (until broken), But the special "immobile" effect (Dex 0 = -5 AC) lasts only 1 round.
_m_ 01-10-07, 07:51 PM	m that's why the argument is that a pin lasts round after round (until broken), But the special "immobile" effect (Dex 0 = -5 AC) lasts only 1 round. ah. thats ok then.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-10-07, 07:58 PM	I think the single strongest piece of evidence that a pin MUST last until the opponent breaks it is the bit about moving a pinned opponent requiring a standard action. If you have to use an attack action to maintain the pin each round, then you would never have a standard action available to move the grapple, despite the fact that you get a +4 bonus on the grapple check to do so. Therefore, either the pin is automatically maintained until the opponent breaks it, or that entire segment of the rules is meaningless.