Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thanlok 01-14-06, 04:23 PM	What are the official RPGA rules for playing up or down. How far can you go either way? For instance, with my 7th level ranger what is the lowest APL I can play at and what is the highest. Can I play APL 4 with him? Can I play an APL 12 with him? Many Thanks, Thanlok of Ket
pedr 01-14-06, 06:07 PM	I think that there might have been complicated rules on this previously but they're now reasonably simple (I think!) A character can play up without restriction. A character can play down as much as it likes, with only this restriction: a character cannot play in a module if the maximum APL is four levels below that character's level. So a level 14 or 15 character cannot play a module which doesn't have an APL 12 option, a level 12+ character cannot play a module which only goes up to APL 8 and so on. Apart from this, you can play down as much as you want. A table of a level 15 character and three level 1 characters is legitimate so long as the module has an APL 12 tier. That table would work out as APL 4.5 so could play at APL 4 or 6. Of course it would be crazy, but legal. A character which is playing up more than 2 levels only receives half the XP and half the GP that is due to the party. A character which is playing down more than 2 levels receives half the XP but full GP. So in the crazy example above, if the party plays at APL 4, the maximum XP that the 1st level characters can get is 337 XP and maximum gold is 325 GP. The level 15 character can get no more than 337 XP but can earn up to 650 GP. Your character can play at whatever APL the table you put together turns out as, unless the module only has an APL 2 option. Source for this: the boilerplate in the front of each LG adventure, combined with the errata in chapter 9 of the LGCS 4.2 (page 62 in the non-pretty version)
zigspatty 01-14-06, 06:09 PM	You can play any LG adventure in which your character is not 4 levels or more higher the the maximum APL supported by the adventure or is not an intro limited to first level characters. BUT, if your character is 3 or more levels below the APL (level 7 playing at APL 10), he will receive half xp and half gold for his efforts; if your character is 3 or more levels above the APL (level 7 playing at APL 4) he will receive half xp and full gold. Check out the LGCS4.2 under Level Caps on page 12. Sometimes it's necessary to play a character who is a bit further off the APL to get a table together or ensure that you've a reasonable class mix. That's why the rules allow it. But playing up tends to increase the odds of character death. Playing down too much tends to decrease everyone's overall enjoyment, either because the high level guy has no problem handling everything on his own or because adding his level into the calculations has pushed up the APL enough that the challenge is almost overwhelming for everyone except him... and then he fails a save and is charmed/confused/fleeing in fear.... Patty
paigeoliver 01-16-06, 11:55 PM	Some character types play up a lot better than others. Archers play up very well. Melee fighters don't tend to play up so well. Rogues play up terribly. They can't make the DC on any of the rogue stuff and they are super squishy. Blaster mages play up poorly. Buffing mages play up rather well. Clerics play up well, provided they don't try to be melee clerics. I would also recommend never playing up unless there are either 6 characters, or a really strong table to begin with.
JamesMaissen 01-17-06, 04:38 AM	Some character types play up a lot better than others. I would also recommend never playing up unless there are either 6 characters, or a really strong table to begin with. Another thing you want to consider is party composition. First of all do you feel you have all the bases covered? Does the party mesh well? These two factors can be worth alot. A smartly played and balanced group can do very well where others of higher level may not even survive. Secondly, who are the lynchpins of the party? To that I mean that normally when you are in a situation of playing up there are those that are higher level than the others. Some of these handle 'carrying' other players better and some do it worse than you'd expect. As an addendum to the second.. sometimes you will look to play up when there is no one of level with the APL at which you will be playing. That is a good recipe for disaster. If the answer to the second consideration is that you don't have any lynchpins.. then don't play up, period. -James
Arvagor 01-17-06, 09:32 AM	Another rule of thumb I always use is, never play up if you don't have a cleric whose level is at least at the chosen APL. E.g., if the party's level is 7, don't play APL 8 unless you have a cleric who is level 8, etc. This sentiment may result more from being in a region where there has been numerous undead (until recently), and clerics playing up vs. higher APL undead is kinda like rogues playing up vs. the higher APL traps -- they can't make the turn checks, can't do enough healing each round (or require a day's worth of rest between encounters to be able to provide enough healing, etc.). Maybe other people/DMs think otherwise, but I am of the opinion that if you throw undead at a party, then a cleric at APL should always have at least a chance of turning (some of) them... Also, I strongly agree with JamesMaissen's point -- if no one in the party is at the higher APL, then don't elect to play up then, either...
JohnduBois 01-17-06, 10:03 AM	Wow... That got me thinking... I don't remember the last time I saw a cleric that wasn't a Radiant Servant or otherwise turn-optimized turn undead above APL 4... I guess that's what happens when a significant number of your adventures take place in a city that's effectively desecrated...
Drezden 01-17-06, 11:36 AM	An important consideration in forming a table and in making a determination to play up is How many "damage dealers" do you have and who are they? Having a Cleric at APL is great, but you still need people who can kill the monsters. I think you usually need 2 damage dealers to be successful at most mods. If you get 4 (or more), then you will normally cakewalk to mod - especially if the damage dealers come from different sources. An uber damage table like that is probably even safer for a 5th or 6th character under APL table to sit at then one with a Cleric, because the fights won't last very long and there will be so many other threats for enemies to focus on. Daren
Sieylianna 01-17-06, 12:39 PM	Another rule of thumb I always use is, never play up if you don't have a cleric whose level is at least at the chosen APL. E.g., if the party's level is 7, don't play APL 8 unless you have a cleric who is level 8, etc.... I generally don't play up unless I'm reasonably comfortable with the other players at the table. I'd rather have five people that I can count on in the clutch, even if the party isn't as balanced as I like. For example, my druid 8 playing APL 10 in a regional module. I'm assured that we have a good group which calculates as APL 11, including a 13th level RSOP taking 1/2 XP to play with his friends. One PC dies and it was looking like I was going to have to run to avoid a TPK. We eventually were successful, but it was looking grim for a while. The RSOP had no clue what he was doing, I suspect he'd redone the PC in conversion and hadn't played his way up. Special circumstances in the module hosed druids and rangers, so my PC was useless and it wouldn't have mattered if I was 10th or 12th level. I was lucky to live through it. On the other hand, the same PC played APL 10 the previous slot with no problem (a different group of players). Ed
King Kashue 01-17-06, 03:03 PM	Some character types play up a lot better than others. Archers play up very well. Melee fighters don't tend to play up so well. Rogues play up terribly. They can't make the DC on any of the rogue stuff and they are super squishy. Blaster mages play up poorly. Buffing mages play up rather well. Clerics play up well, provided they don't try to be melee clerics. I would also recommend never playing up unless there are either 6 characters, or a really strong table to begin with. On the other hand, some characters are horrible for playing down, since they steal other character's thunder and make it boring and not fun... Damage dealers in general have a hard time being balanced when playing down... Technique fighters, e.g., trippers, disarmers, are pretty darn good since they make the fight easier for the others... Healers are fine at any table Buffers are the best at playing down...Some of the best times I've ever had at a table were with a high level buffer who made our characters crazy good in a fight...
King Kashue 01-17-06, 03:08 PM	I generally don't play up unless I'm reasonably comfortable with the other players at the table. I'd rather have five people that I can count on in the clutch, even if the party isn't as balanced as I like. For example, my druid 8 playing APL 10 in a regional module. I'm assured that we have a good group which calculates as APL 11, including a 13th level RSOP taking 1/2 XP to play with his friends. One PC dies and it was looking like I was going to have to run to avoid a TPK. We eventually were successful, but it was looking grim for a while. The RSOP had no clue what he was doing, I suspect he'd redone the PC in conversion and hadn't played his way up. Special circumstances in the module hosed druids and rangers, so my PC was useless and it wouldn't have mattered if I was 10th or 12th level. I was lucky to live through it. On the other hand, the same PC played APL 10 the previous slot with no problem (a different group of players). Ed Of course, someone who can't play their character well will always cause problems... I don't know how many people out there split damage between enemies...That's tactics 101, first day of class! A bad guy with 1 hit point does as much damage as a bad guy with 150, why do people not get this?
Arvagor 01-17-06, 03:53 PM	A bad guy with 1 hit point does as much damage as a bad guy with 150, why do people not get this?That really depends on the tactics you use to fight them... A sorcerer I know, when he had the chance, swapped out one of his previous 1st level spells for ray of enfeeblement because of his past experience with fighting giants (and he's not from Geoff) -- get a decent roll on the damage (or even a bad one if you're higher level), and those giants are not quite as tough, and they're not dealing as much damage at 1 hit point as they were at 150! ;) That being said, I would probably say that I am 95% in the "Concentrate Fire!" school of combat...
solbergb 01-17-06, 06:44 PM	I think you have to change your attitude a bit when you play up vs play down. How the char will play up or down is something I think about when designing a character. Someone said archers play up well. That's sorta true - it is true if you can still hit things at the higher APL and ALSO do enough damage to matter. Frankly I rank it a little different: "corks" (AC/high save types) play down better than they play up. The "low" offense may still be meaningful at lower APL's and the odds their defenses will make them nigh-invulnerable (as opposed to going down in 3 rounds instead of two) are higher. "maulers" (damage dealers of any type, including casters) play down more effectively than they play up, but *if* a mauler can hit the enemy and still do meaningful damage when playing up, they're ok. The kind of mauler who plays up well may overpower a low level table - or he can be the anchor that everyone else supports, highly appreciated but very bad if he goes down. "battlefield controllers" tend to do well up or down, although tactical fighters will have trouble with really big/strong monsters. Mobility scales less with level, so tripping/applying barriers/etc tends to be useful in either direction, without overshadowing anyone. "support casters" tend to play up or down very well. The only problem is if you have a whole party of support casters, one of them needs to take on another role, usually the highest level one. Note that an 8th sorcerer caster with nothing but magic missile does meaningful damage (archer role, if not a powerful one) at APL6, and be more likely to beat spell resistance etc, but a 4th level sorcerer caster is far better off trying support or battlefield control, because he'll go from "weak archer" to "meaningless archer" except vs critically wounded targets. "skill monkey" types are usually unaffected by playing up or down, unless their skills are right on the edge of being useful, in which case playing up can take away this function. An overconfident scout playing up can sometimes really get hurt, a scout playing down will usually have little trouble spotting everything and not being seen. My monk is a mauler and battlefield controller when he plays down, and he can sometimes even "cork" in spite of an abysmal armor class. When he plays up, he's far more likely to be some mix of support and damage, with battlefield control on any vulnerable target. He tends to play "Static, come to me" more when playing down, and "go out and skirmish" when playing up. My archer is very sensitive to whether or not his damage is helping, and tends to shift to support if he can't hurt something. This is almost never a problem unless he's playing up, especially way up (in an APL10 mod played at APL7, where he was a 3rd of 4 PC's, he spent about half the time in support mode, half in firing mode - and he directly saved the life of one character via support - and contributed about 1/4 of the party offense when shooting). He will only "tank" when playing down and is less likely to scout when playing up.
solbergb 01-17-06, 06:56 PM	Secondly, who are the lynchpins of the party? To that I mean that normally when you are in a situation of playing up there are those that are higher level than the others. Some of these handle 'carrying' other players better and some do it worse than you'd expect. -James To me this is the key. The big weakness of a 4 person party is EVERYONE is a linchpin - too much of your power drops out if anybody goes down. But as an example, last weekend I played at a table where our "tank" was playing down, and he was doing all the meaningful damage (my sorc, an arcane trickster and a more melee oriented cleric would sometimes finish off his leavings). A few rounds in we realized this, and oriented our tactics around keeping him swinging as effectively as possible (keeping him healed, getting buffs on him, impairing monsters with spells that might attack him, providing flanks). The only fight we had trouble with was one where he couldn't get at the grapplemonster that kept grabbing smaller/weaker party members and trying to drown them. Most of us were in "rescue" mode, but every time it came up to fight, another chunk was whacked out of it - which made a later negotiation attempt with the monster more favorable (it was weak enough that coming into range of our fighter was getting risky, but we were out of resources for future rescues, so we talked) Had he gone down in any fight that needed significant damage dealt, we would have been in trouble. On the other hand, because the other 4 of us ranged from no damage to weak damage, our strengths lay in support and battlefield control, so it was hard to take him out of a fight without clearing us away. Still...we had some depth. Two and a half of us could do meaningful damage if not terrific damage. It is not as bad as the "one hitter, 3 support" parties you sometimes get where the other three can't do a damn thing if the main guy drops. I look for: close combat damage, range damage, in-combat healing as key linchpin traits. Anyone in the party that adds massive mobility (dim-door sorcerer say) can sub for range combat in a pinch, if there is a melee hitter and the mobility guy can get him there. These three things are most likely to hose a party found without one in a fight that needs it. That is why tables without clerics willing to heal tend to be nervous - only clerics can really do much incombat healing (paladins get one good wad of healing, druids and bards tend to be behind the curve). You can do without though, if your offense is strong enough in BOTH close combat and ranged combat. Parties able to put the hurt on bad guys at any range/environment/circumstance need incombat heals less....but party members need to remind themselves that if they get into trouble, they need to withdraw or otherwise save themselves, since they won't get any help "Standing on the line".
solbergb 01-17-06, 07:03 PM	That really depends on the tactics you use to fight them... That being said, I would probably say that I am 95% in the "Concentrate Fire!" school of combat... Concentrate DAMAGE Spread out debuffs You want the uninjured guys being the ones blinded/prone/enfeebled/confused/unable to approach/whatever. You want the injured guys dead The first thing my sorc looks for is somebody she can drop with a magic missile. Enemy removed from fight = best use of an action, and barring SR, this spell is a sure thing. If SR exists, I'll compare my chances of punching through to other options. The next thing she looks for is somebody in the party who is potentially useful that she can make better. This is a "sure thing" and usually is preferred over saving throw-type spells. The next thing she usually looks for is somebody she can impair enough that they either can't fight next round, or can't fight well. Area effects are best, because multiple saves mean SOMEBODY gets impaired. The next thing she looks for is somebody she can injure, or potentially injure, near a party damage dealer. Sometimes she can combine these things (shadow bind a group of enemies, then fly, with the party dwarf tank/hitter riding the tenser disk behind me dragged into full attack range of a victim that can't hit back for another round)
redgamer 01-17-06, 07:39 PM	I always feel bad playing my archer down. He simply doesn't do enough damage to justify bumping the APL up. I will gladly play him up because even playing up he usually has the best saves in the party to back up evasion, mettle, and spell turning so unless a melee monster targets him he is usually pretty safe. Playing up also means the most dangerous enemy is usually the one casting 6th level spells and archer can almost always disrupt an enemies spell so in many mods I can contribute more for higher level mods. I prefer to play my wizard down because then the other people appreciate the buffs more. My arcane tank simple switches tactics depending on if he plays up or down. Playing up I spend more time as a troglodyte and use combat expertise a lot more. Playing down I charge more and buff offense (myself and others) When I play down I try to save my tricks for when someos life if in danger so I don't steal the spotlight too much. Playing up or down depends on so many different factors. Some mods are harder some are easier. Sometimes the a lucky glitterdust destroys the enemies offensive capabilities. Sometimes the enemy panics 5/6th of the party imediately after you haste them. Some parties need a specific role more than they need total party levels. Other parties are just so strong without your character you could play a level 5 character with +1 BAB and a handful of bad level 1 spells (due to questionable multiclassing) at APL 8 and still survive nicely. None of these examples are theoretical.
King Kashue 01-17-06, 10:25 PM	Concentrate DAMAGE Spread out debuffs You want the uninjured guys being the ones blinded/prone/enfeebled/confused/unable to approach/whatever. You want the injured guys dead Heh...My Sorc sounds much like yours, he's a nerfer and a buffer...1st round is either Haste or Glitterdust (depending on enemy makeup and formation), 2nd round is whichever one I didn't cast in the first round :D
gizmonster 01-18-06, 10:18 AM	Buffers are the best at playing down...Some of the best times I've ever had at a table were with a high level buffer who made our characters crazy good in a fight... I did that just recently with a group of first level characters. My 16 year old son had some friends with whom he played D&D with a few times, they were still green but had at least some experience. We had a table of 6. All first level except for me. Dwarf Barbarian with toughness and 20 con...WICKED hitpoints. Bard Heavy strong fighter Rogue Cleric and my 8th level Wizard. I really wanted the boys to have fun for their first LG adventure. I memorized nothing but buff spells, we were playing APL4. The boys loved it. They were able to clobber any baddie that showed up, thanks to bulls strength, enlarge person, and stoneskin. They had a BLAST.
Lomiat 01-18-06, 03:03 PM	I did that just recently with a group of first level characters. My 16 year old son had some friends with whom he played D&D with a few times, they were still green but had at least some experience. We had a table of 6. All first level except for me. Dwarf Barbarian with toughness and 20 con...WICKED hitpoints. Bard Heavy strong fighter Rogue Cleric and my 8th level Wizard. I really wanted the boys to have fun for their first LG adventure. I memorized nothing but buff spells, we were playing APL4. The boys loved it. They were able to clobber any baddie that showed up, thanks to bulls strength, enlarge person, and stoneskin. They had a BLAST. They were lucky not to face a fireball. It's tough to call whether or not an adventure will play up well. Adventures that pit a party against a solitary monster, or as many as three, often play up well. With only 1 top 3 creatures to attack in any given round, it's hard to target more than half the PCs' party. However, any adventure that provides the DM with foes that can easily surround and/or flank an entire party could easily decimate a group playing up. I have a 9th level wizard and led my brother and a bunch of my friends through an APL8 adventure. They were 3rd to 5th level (we needed animals to add to the APL enough to bump us), but I expected we'd be okay since the year's assortment of modules from the region had provided no really challenging encounters, nor anything with more than 3 monsters at a time. Sadly, however, we walked right into an ambush with 6 monsters, and by the end of the first round, every other PC but mine was a floating pool of blood deep underwater.
Drezden 01-18-06, 04:22 PM	Nice brother lol Instead of just playing down to APL6 where the 4th and 5th level characters could get fold gold and xp, you "made" all of them play up 3-5 levels, so that you could get full gold and xp. You even made them buy animals to do it. That is just really poor form. At least they learned a lesson about the deadliness of mods. Daren I have a 9th level wizard and led my brother and a bunch of my friends through an APL8 adventure. They were 3rd to 5th level (we needed animals to add to the APL enough to bump us), but I expected we'd be okay since the year's assortment of modules from the region had provided no really challenging encounters, nor anything with more than 3 monsters at a time. Sadly, however, we walked right into an ambush with 6 monsters, and by the end of the first round, every other PC but mine was a floating pool of blood deep underwater.
ithardin 01-19-06, 03:01 AM	To me it always comes down to who I am playing with. If I don't know the other players (and how they play their characters) then I will usually vote to play down versus playing up. This of course might be because I am the Rogue of the group and would rather not have my butt handed to me because "Mr. Cocky-Pants" is convinced he can take anything :)
ithardin 01-19-06, 03:03 AM	PaigeOliver said: "...Archers play up very well." Especially Paige's archers...that lil' girl (meaning Paige's PC, not Paige himself since he is a boy) is deadly.
paigeoliver 01-19-06, 06:01 AM	And oddly enough, the highly squishy 8 STR, 8 CON Marshall "Gerald Vincent" also seems to play up well. He did quite well at APL 4 when he was second level. I'd bet he would do fine at APL 6 or 8 at his current level of 3, provided he encountered no fireballs. Although given the choice, I would play down every time. Once I have a larger stable of characters I am going to start playing the highest level one I can bring to the table without bumping the APL.
Lomiat 01-19-06, 10:00 AM	Assuming you don't die, all bards, marshalls, clerics, and buffing wizards will play up well because they're abilities really aren't level-dependent. The mod doesn't scale against Haste's effectiveness just because it goes up in APL. Haste is Haste at APL 2 or APL 10. Likewise, bardic music's +2 to hit and damage (assuming you're a smart bard and take Inspirational Boost), a cleric's buffing and healing (though, less with the cleric than with the other classes), or a marshall's auras never suffer effectiveness as you play up. You'll never miss your attack roll or fail to do enough damage, simply because that's not the character's focus. These characters essentially help the other characters who have to make their attack rolls, do the damage and suck the hits. Likewise, trippers, because their main schtick isn't level dependent (although at higher APLs, large and huge monsters start showing up), only ability dependent, don't suffer much playing up... until things start to hit them back. Archers only play up reasonably well because all of their attributes are dumped into being able to hit with a bow and they don't have to place themselves in the front line of most parties. However, there are mods where the archer playing up won't be able to hit a thing, and where the monsters will swarm and attack PCs from every direction. In those mods, an archer playing up is just as squishy as anyone below APL. Then again, any player able to adjust his or her character's tactics for playing up ought to be able to play up fairly well. I played one mod at APL 8 at a table with effectively zero divine casting (we had a cleric, but he thought of himself as an archer), only one 3rd level fighter, and a bunch of arcane casters. The fighter just went into the front and went defensive, and though it could have turned ugly if he had to try dodging multiple hits, it didn't really. The arcane casters appreciated the roadblock and finished off the encounters in an average 1.5 rounds each. ... So the fighter played up "well." Not because he managed to hit things and be the typical dwarven war machine, but because he helped balance a party that then was able to manhandle the encounters.
gizmonster 01-19-06, 10:39 AM	They were lucky not to face a fireball. It's tough to call whether or not an adventure will play up well. Adventures that pit a party against a solitary monster, or as many as three, often play up well. With only 1 top 3 creatures to attack in any given round, it's hard to target more than half the PCs' party. However, any adventure that provides the DM with foes that can easily surround and/or flank an entire party could easily decimate a group playing up. . Who says we didn't? ;) Okay actually it was a lightning bolt. My 8th level wizard is an abjurer. One free abjuration spell every level will do wonders for keeping lower level players alive. The only encounter with a spell caster that adventure I got initiative and put up a minor globe of invulnerability. He failed his spell craft check and wasted his lightning bolt. I suppose it could have gone differently if he had gotten init but hey Who wants to live forever? Besides it was their first game in LG, first level characters, there wasn't much invested. So I don't think it would have been a great loss. It was a lot of fun though.
PaulH 01-21-06, 09:01 PM	Hi I normally play a 'support character' - Dwarf Clr 3 (Boccob - Trickery/Magic) Warmage 3. Going Mystic Theurge. I totally agree with the point of 'who you're playing with'. I don't mind playing up if there is at least one front-line character of the APL level, and a good mix of support. Although Oskar could be better planned, (Warmage didn't exist when he was created), I can start off with Lssr Acid Orbs, then go invisible (Domain spell) & go round with WOCL. My elemental spells also good for those evil swarms. (Died against swarm with SR. It was past midnight at a con & didn't think about Lssr Acid Orb). Still having charges in Wand of Lightning also helps. However, if I don't know the team I'm with, & there's no 'Kingpin' then I either play APL, or down if there's weak party. (I'm only healer, etc). Cheers Paul H