Possible solution to LG access [Archive] - Wizards Community

Possible solution to LG access [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Holok
07-21-07, 09:00 PM I'm sure that many of you will beat me down for suggesting this. But I really hate how Living Greyhawk access works.

It's a ton of book keeping for me to go through 50-60 AR's to check what favors, emities, access, etc... I possess. Like many people I've resorted to creating spread sheets to keep track of this.

On top of this, there are those that cheat the system. I know that I've been bent over at more than one table because someone came to the table with prior knowledge of exactly what they had to do to get the access that they wanted. :eek: :confused: If you're shocked about this I question how much LG you actually play.

Simply put I consider the system of access to be fatally flawed as it does nothing to limit cheating and just generates a great deal of work to play a game that I should be enjoying.

That last part is big on the should be. I.E. I quit for a year because I hated the amount of work that I had to put into playing a game that much. I only reluctantly came back because of friends that I wasn't seeing much outside of the rpga. Things haven't really improved.

Now many people hated the way that CERTs worked for Living City because it caused party in fighting and other issues that I'm not going to go into.

I've got to accept that the AR's are going to be stacking up for years to come. I've started doing a folder per character you get so many.

I like to relate Living Greyhawk to Mario Brothers. Everything you hit turns into gold.

If you haven't already stopped reading. What I'd like to suggest is to come back half way.

Keep the AR's. However, instead of turning everything gold award some items and some access.

Here is how I think it should work.

In most modules you are working from some orginization or fighting a number of mobs with cookie cutter equipment. I.E. Everyone has a +1 short sword or +1 plate. Etc...

I'm going to start to build on this from APL 2. Which gives you roughly 450 gold per AR.

Instead of the 450 gold, what you do is award roughly 900-1000 gold work of items. Many players will not want the items that they get and will sell them for half price and end up with 450-500 gold. The difference is that you are feeding the players ego that they are getting something out of the module. Instead of struggling through several modules to save enough money to purchase the items they want. It also gives more of a sense that you are receiving what you fought against. Instead of 20 +1 short swords vanishing into thin air because the gold cap doesn't cover them.

However, you do not stop at just handing out bobbles. You still put in access.

What this gives you is better control over what the players receive. Either by limiting what items or access are awarded on the AR's.

Also, you can adjust the awarded items to cater to the situation or players easier. What I mean by this is that you can list multiple items to be awarded and require that the the player select one from the list and the GM crosses off the rest.

An example of what I just said is that you can put on the AR that the player can pick between a +1 short sword, +1 shield, or +1 ring of protection. But which ever item is picked the player loses the other two items from the AR.

Though this is not to say that you couldn't award multiple items to come up to the item value that you are looking for on the AR.

For higher AR's it is simply a matter of again roughly doubling the current amount of gold you would get for that AR to determine what equipment should be awarded.

Now, I'm sure some of you are thinking that such a system would allow for people to get stronger equipment. But I see it as a chance for players to get more logical equipment. Keep the awarded items to the common stuff. Armor weapons, etc... and make the access stuff the items that usually end up messing up or overpowering the game. I.E. your Vile Belts, Staffs of Rapid Magery, etc..

One thing I constantly hear is that arcane casters refuse to buy any armor because the items they have to buy for armor are so much more expensive than what the fighter types have to pay it is impossible for them to keep up and the modules are written so that the NPC's can hit fighter types AC's.

I feel that the system that I am suggesting would make it easier to award the casters the bracers of armor, etc... that they need to be able to compete with the fighter types on AC. Especially, if you discount the award value of items that would seem normally seemed overpriced when compared to equivilent forms of armor or equipment. I.E Bracers of armor 3 being the alternative to being awarded studded leather armor +1.

I would like to see if other people have idea's on how to better refine this idea. I know it's still pretty rough. But to be honest as I said earlier I really don't want to put a ton of work into playing a game that should be entertaining me. I'm posting this to see if I can get people to brain storm on a possible solution to a system that I just see as inherently bad.
Redfist
07-21-07, 09:45 PM Personally - I'm fine w/ the system as it stands today. Not changing anything means you don't have to come up with rules for how to deal with old ARs -vs- new access style ARs, etc.

*shrug*
_metz_
07-21-07, 09:57 PM Simply put I consider the system of access to be fatally flawed as it does nothing to limit cheating and just generates a great deal of work to play a game that I should be enjoying.

I think that is just uninformed. Everything you have must be documented. Your proposal makes the system even harder to administrate, which is what you claim you are trying to do. It quite frankly sounds like you are whinging because you haven't got the access you want, and want more.

The ramifications of you statements might benefit you, or a benign gaming group, but you haven't though of the bigger picture at all.

And did you just say casters don't have enough AC? Especially back when Alter self was around, Wizards had the best AC in most of my parties...

I seriously don't think you have thought this through at all.

Can you think how hard it is to write a module that gives useful items to everyone? I don't want 30 +1 short swords or +1 rings of protection.
ShinAkuma2
07-21-07, 11:26 PM I wasn't aware that LG access was a problem that needed a solution.

You've invented the RPGA equivalent to chindogu ("un-useless" items).
Pint_Glass_Crusader
07-22-07, 05:52 PM You can't please all of the people, all of the time. As you are dealing with many gaming groups (and players) throughout a region.

The system tries to be fair. Though I do agree that it can foster a climate where players "in the know" [so-to-speak :rolleyes:] would want to "hunt" specific ARs for access.

The only solution (which would mean a small, but catastophic change to the current rules) would be to allow "Special Missions" for specific access.

However, this would generate an unholy amount of work for writers (when the inevitable 40,000 requests come in for "access" to Keen Great Falcions ;) ) and only serve to "cheapen" AR access and destroy any need to actually play a standard module.
TetsujinOni
07-23-07, 10:27 AM The only solution (which would mean a small, but catastophic change to the current rules) would be to allow "Special Missions" for specific access.

However, this would generate an unholy amount of work for writers (when the inevitable 40,000 requests come in for "access" to Keen Great Falcions ;) ) and only serve to "cheapen" AR access and destroy any need to actually play a standard module.

Yeah, because once per year per player destroys the need to play any other adventures.
bitznarf
07-23-07, 10:47 AM At the moment it is actually once per year per PC TetsujinOni.
TetsujinOni
07-23-07, 01:28 PM At the moment it is actually once per year per PC TetsujinOni.

Whups. Did that change from 596, because I would've sworn it was player, not PC?
bitznarf
07-23-07, 01:35 PM Yes, it changed from 596.
UMiskatonic
07-23-07, 02:38 PM This solution, in my opinion, isn't needed or wanted.

I remember the previous versions (certs, magic mart, etc.) and this is the best we've ever had it. I don't think it makes any sense to change something that works so well.

And I don't see the need for a massive spreadsheet either. I've got seven LG characters, and have never used anything more complicated than a pen and paper to keep track of everything. (Well, maybe a calculator I got for free, I hate math at 2am.)

The reason why this is easier for me is because I've accepted the fact that I'll get more access than I'll ever be able to take advantage of, and the great majority of items I have access to don't work for the character. Therefore, I only have to keep track of the options I might actually use.

Doubling the amount of wealth would greatly imbalance things, if you find players who are willing to share equipment. This would happen extremely quickly, in my opinon.

I also don't think that AC for casters is a big deal. For example, your example refers to bracers of armor +3. That's expensive. However, for 2000 gold, a 4th level wizard can buy two pearls of power, and keep mage armor running for 12 hours a day. That's MORE ac, and you save 16000 gold.

A wizard who chooses spells well will be perfectly safe, and I've seen plenty of effective wizards with ACs=APL who have the sense to stay out of melee and who do fine. For example, a fiendish tyrannosaur of legend has a bite attack of something like +42. However, that same 4th level wizard can cast levitate, and be completely immune to the creature.

I'm not mad at you, and please don't take this as a personal attack. But I feel that your thread expresses your personal opinion, and I happen to disagree mightily.
control freak
07-23-07, 02:47 PM i think that the top gripe with LG is the DMG tables that give special whepon ablitys like flameing are not open, which would make archers many times better because they would add them to any whepon, spesificaly rapid shotting rangers/fighters

other then that i like the current system but think that there should be more favors that give acess to a TABLE so that something for every one is good because no one thinks they are worthless favors then, i hate favors that give acess to the big sword of whoopping when you have WF,WS,and MWM in the big axe of whooping

oh yah and, Keen Great Falcions? what book is that from
bitznarf
07-23-07, 02:53 PM I think that the top gripe with LG is the DMG tables that give special weapon abilities like flaming are not open, which would make archers many times better because they would add them to any weapon, specifically rapid shotting rangers/fighters.
In a 'normal' home game you would often need to find such a weapon, or find someone who would enchant a weapon for you, LG is no different in that way.

The great falchion is from Sandstorm. It is an exotic 2 handed weapon that does 1d12 damage (3d6 large sized) and has a crit range of 18-20/x2. The keen weapon enhancement is from the DMG.
Genghis Cohen
07-23-07, 06:09 PM As I see it, living campaigns can't replace home campaigns, and home campaigns can't replace living campaigns. Each offers a different set of benefits.

I like the current system in Living Greyhawk. Why fix a non-existent problem by making the campaign more difficult to operate? Doing so would only diminish the campaign's unique benefits to its participants.
Shieldhart91
07-24-07, 01:33 AM One thing I constantly hear is that arcane casters refuse to buy any armor because the items they have to buy for armor are so much more expensive than what the fighter types have to pay it is impossible for them to keep up and the modules are written so that the NPC's can hit fighter types AC's.

Are you saying that arcane caster should buy armor?

How much LG, or even D&D do you play? Casters don't even need armor.
clannagh
07-24-07, 02:34 AM In a 'normal' home game you would often need to find such a weapon, or find someone who would enchant a weapon for you, LG is no different in that way.

The great falchion is from Sandstorm. It is an exotic 2 handed weapon that does 1d12 damage (3d6 large sized) and has a crit range of 18-20/x2. The keen weapon enhancement is from the DMG.

Now given the proviso that you have 4 levels of fighter and are not looking at EWM levels ......

In reality you may be better putting the feat used for EWP Great Falchion into Weapon Specialisation Falchion and getting a Keen normal Falchion.

Comparison.

Keen Great Falchion
Average Damage 6.5 + STR + PA (15-20 x2)

Keen Falchion with weapon specialisation
Average Damage 7 + STR + PA (15-20 x2)
bitznarf
07-24-07, 09:28 AM When enlarged the benefit goes back to the Great Falchion:
Keen Large Great Falchion
Average Damge 10.5 + STR + PA (15-20/x2)

Keen Large Falchion with weapon spec
Average Damge 9 + STR + PA (15-20/x2)
Pint_Glass_Crusader
07-25-07, 08:10 AM One mention of the "Keen Great Falcion" and everyone goes into mathmatical overload! :dancin:

As a [primary] Monk player, I shed a bucket of tears as in my last game (few days ago) one of my secondary characters (a Ranger) gots access to a "Monk's Belt"!

So I've changed my mind on my earlier post, a special mission for a singular access to a wondrous item/weapon or armour type (like keen etc.) or even a particular spell for arcane casters. Is not going to unbalance the LG game and if a player wants to "blow" their special for the year on a [material] reward... why not.
TetsujinOni
07-25-07, 09:37 AM So I've changed my mind on my earlier post, a special mission for a singular access to a wondrous item/weapon or armour type (like keen etc.) or even a particular spell for arcane casters. Is not going to unbalance the LG game and if a player wants to "blow" their special for the year on a [material] reward... why not.

Perceived special treatment of players by Triad is bad. Special Mission approval is a Triad thing.

Let alone the potential for non-balance-related issues.
seraphimpunk
07-26-07, 11:29 AM the only thing i wish they'd change is racial substitution level / alternate class feature access. Similar to how they say that certain adventures are of interest to paladins or knights or to certan meta orgs / thieves guilds, they should say an adventure is of intrest to elves, or druids etc. if the adventure gives access to racial substitution levels for elves and druids.
TetsujinOni
07-26-07, 11:48 AM the only thing i wish they'd change is racial substitution level / alternate class feature access. Similar to how they say that certain adventures are of interest to paladins or knights or to certan meta orgs / thieves guilds, they should say an adventure is of intrest to elves, or druids etc. if the adventure gives access to racial substitution levels for elves and druids.

Move your character to Bissel. Check the Bissel yahoo group for the new Bissel omnibus for why you might want to.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Holok 07-21-07, 09:00 PM	I'm sure that many of you will beat me down for suggesting this. But I really hate how Living Greyhawk access works. It's a ton of book keeping for me to go through 50-60 AR's to check what favors, emities, access, etc... I possess. Like many people I've resorted to creating spread sheets to keep track of this. On top of this, there are those that cheat the system. I know that I've been bent over at more than one table because someone came to the table with prior knowledge of exactly what they had to do to get the access that they wanted. :eek: :confused: If you're shocked about this I question how much LG you actually play. Simply put I consider the system of access to be fatally flawed as it does nothing to limit cheating and just generates a great deal of work to play a game that I should be enjoying. That last part is big on the should be. I.E. I quit for a year because I hated the amount of work that I had to put into playing a game that much. I only reluctantly came back because of friends that I wasn't seeing much outside of the rpga. Things haven't really improved. Now many people hated the way that CERTs worked for Living City because it caused party in fighting and other issues that I'm not going to go into. I've got to accept that the AR's are going to be stacking up for years to come. I've started doing a folder per character you get so many. I like to relate Living Greyhawk to Mario Brothers. Everything you hit turns into gold. If you haven't already stopped reading. What I'd like to suggest is to come back half way. Keep the AR's. However, instead of turning everything gold award some items and some access. Here is how I think it should work. In most modules you are working from some orginization or fighting a number of mobs with cookie cutter equipment. I.E. Everyone has a +1 short sword or +1 plate. Etc... I'm going to start to build on this from APL 2. Which gives you roughly 450 gold per AR. Instead of the 450 gold, what you do is award roughly 900-1000 gold work of items. Many players will not want the items that they get and will sell them for half price and end up with 450-500 gold. The difference is that you are feeding the players ego that they are getting something out of the module. Instead of struggling through several modules to save enough money to purchase the items they want. It also gives more of a sense that you are receiving what you fought against. Instead of 20 +1 short swords vanishing into thin air because the gold cap doesn't cover them. However, you do not stop at just handing out bobbles. You still put in access. What this gives you is better control over what the players receive. Either by limiting what items or access are awarded on the AR's. Also, you can adjust the awarded items to cater to the situation or players easier. What I mean by this is that you can list multiple items to be awarded and require that the the player select one from the list and the GM crosses off the rest. An example of what I just said is that you can put on the AR that the player can pick between a +1 short sword, +1 shield, or +1 ring of protection. But which ever item is picked the player loses the other two items from the AR. Though this is not to say that you couldn't award multiple items to come up to the item value that you are looking for on the AR. For higher AR's it is simply a matter of again roughly doubling the current amount of gold you would get for that AR to determine what equipment should be awarded. Now, I'm sure some of you are thinking that such a system would allow for people to get stronger equipment. But I see it as a chance for players to get more logical equipment. Keep the awarded items to the common stuff. Armor weapons, etc... and make the access stuff the items that usually end up messing up or overpowering the game. I.E. your Vile Belts, Staffs of Rapid Magery, etc.. One thing I constantly hear is that arcane casters refuse to buy any armor because the items they have to buy for armor are so much more expensive than what the fighter types have to pay it is impossible for them to keep up and the modules are written so that the NPC's can hit fighter types AC's. I feel that the system that I am suggesting would make it easier to award the casters the bracers of armor, etc... that they need to be able to compete with the fighter types on AC. Especially, if you discount the award value of items that would seem normally seemed overpriced when compared to equivilent forms of armor or equipment. I.E Bracers of armor 3 being the alternative to being awarded studded leather armor +1. I would like to see if other people have idea's on how to better refine this idea. I know it's still pretty rough. But to be honest as I said earlier I really don't want to put a ton of work into playing a game that should be entertaining me. I'm posting this to see if I can get people to brain storm on a possible solution to a system that I just see as inherently bad.
Redfist 07-21-07, 09:45 PM	Personally - I'm fine w/ the system as it stands today. Not changing anything means you don't have to come up with rules for how to deal with old ARs -vs- new access style ARs, etc. shrug
_metz_ 07-21-07, 09:57 PM	Simply put I consider the system of access to be fatally flawed as it does nothing to limit cheating and just generates a great deal of work to play a game that I should be enjoying. I think that is just uninformed. Everything you have must be documented. Your proposal makes the system even harder to administrate, which is what you claim you are trying to do. It quite frankly sounds like you are whinging because you haven't got the access you want, and want more. The ramifications of you statements might benefit you, or a benign gaming group, but you haven't though of the bigger picture at all. And did you just say casters don't have enough AC? Especially back when Alter self was around, Wizards had the best AC in most of my parties... I seriously don't think you have thought this through at all. Can you think how hard it is to write a module that gives useful items to everyone? I don't want 30 +1 short swords or +1 rings of protection.
ShinAkuma2 07-21-07, 11:26 PM	I wasn't aware that LG access was a problem that needed a solution. You've invented the RPGA equivalent to chindogu ("un-useless" items).
Pint_Glass_Crusader 07-22-07, 05:52 PM	You can't please all of the people, all of the time. As you are dealing with many gaming groups (and players) throughout a region. The system tries to be fair. Though I do agree that it can foster a climate where players "in the know" [so-to-speak :rolleyes:] would want to "hunt" specific ARs for access. The only solution (which would mean a small, but catastophic change to the current rules) would be to allow "Special Missions" for specific access. However, this would generate an unholy amount of work for writers (when the inevitable 40,000 requests come in for "access" to Keen Great Falcions ;) ) and only serve to "cheapen" AR access and destroy any need to actually play a standard module.
TetsujinOni 07-23-07, 10:27 AM	The only solution (which would mean a small, but catastophic change to the current rules) would be to allow "Special Missions" for specific access. However, this would generate an unholy amount of work for writers (when the inevitable 40,000 requests come in for "access" to Keen Great Falcions ;) ) and only serve to "cheapen" AR access and destroy any need to actually play a standard module. Yeah, because once per year per player destroys the need to play any other adventures.
bitznarf 07-23-07, 10:47 AM	At the moment it is actually once per year per PC TetsujinOni.
TetsujinOni 07-23-07, 01:28 PM	At the moment it is actually once per year per PC TetsujinOni. Whups. Did that change from 596, because I would've sworn it was player, not PC?
bitznarf 07-23-07, 01:35 PM	Yes, it changed from 596.
UMiskatonic 07-23-07, 02:38 PM	This solution, in my opinion, isn't needed or wanted. I remember the previous versions (certs, magic mart, etc.) and this is the best we've ever had it. I don't think it makes any sense to change something that works so well. And I don't see the need for a massive spreadsheet either. I've got seven LG characters, and have never used anything more complicated than a pen and paper to keep track of everything. (Well, maybe a calculator I got for free, I hate math at 2am.) The reason why this is easier for me is because I've accepted the fact that I'll get more access than I'll ever be able to take advantage of, and the great majority of items I have access to don't work for the character. Therefore, I only have to keep track of the options I might actually use. Doubling the amount of wealth would greatly imbalance things, if you find players who are willing to share equipment. This would happen extremely quickly, in my opinon. I also don't think that AC for casters is a big deal. For example, your example refers to bracers of armor +3. That's expensive. However, for 2000 gold, a 4th level wizard can buy two pearls of power, and keep mage armor running for 12 hours a day. That's MORE ac, and you save 16000 gold. A wizard who chooses spells well will be perfectly safe, and I've seen plenty of effective wizards with ACs=APL who have the sense to stay out of melee and who do fine. For example, a fiendish tyrannosaur of legend has a bite attack of something like +42. However, that same 4th level wizard can cast levitate, and be completely immune to the creature. I'm not mad at you, and please don't take this as a personal attack. But I feel that your thread expresses your personal opinion, and I happen to disagree mightily.
control freak 07-23-07, 02:47 PM	i think that the top gripe with LG is the DMG tables that give special whepon ablitys like flameing are not open, which would make archers many times better because they would add them to any whepon, spesificaly rapid shotting rangers/fighters other then that i like the current system but think that there should be more favors that give acess to a TABLE so that something for every one is good because no one thinks they are worthless favors then, i hate favors that give acess to the big sword of whoopping when you have WF,WS,and MWM in the big axe of whooping oh yah and, Keen Great Falcions? what book is that from
bitznarf 07-23-07, 02:53 PM	I think that the top gripe with LG is the DMG tables that give special weapon abilities like flaming are not open, which would make archers many times better because they would add them to any weapon, specifically rapid shotting rangers/fighters. In a 'normal' home game you would often need to find such a weapon, or find someone who would enchant a weapon for you, LG is no different in that way. The great falchion is from Sandstorm. It is an exotic 2 handed weapon that does 1d12 damage (3d6 large sized) and has a crit range of 18-20/x2. The keen weapon enhancement is from the DMG.
Genghis Cohen 07-23-07, 06:09 PM	As I see it, living campaigns can't replace home campaigns, and home campaigns can't replace living campaigns. Each offers a different set of benefits. I like the current system in Living Greyhawk. Why fix a non-existent problem by making the campaign more difficult to operate? Doing so would only diminish the campaign's unique benefits to its participants.
Shieldhart91 07-24-07, 01:33 AM	One thing I constantly hear is that arcane casters refuse to buy any armor because the items they have to buy for armor are so much more expensive than what the fighter types have to pay it is impossible for them to keep up and the modules are written so that the NPC's can hit fighter types AC's. Are you saying that arcane caster should buy armor? How much LG, or even D&D do you play? Casters don't even need armor.
clannagh 07-24-07, 02:34 AM	In a 'normal' home game you would often need to find such a weapon, or find someone who would enchant a weapon for you, LG is no different in that way. The great falchion is from Sandstorm. It is an exotic 2 handed weapon that does 1d12 damage (3d6 large sized) and has a crit range of 18-20/x2. The keen weapon enhancement is from the DMG. Now given the proviso that you have 4 levels of fighter and are not looking at EWM levels ...... In reality you may be better putting the feat used for EWP Great Falchion into Weapon Specialisation Falchion and getting a Keen normal Falchion. Comparison. Keen Great Falchion Average Damage 6.5 + STR + PA (15-20 x2) Keen Falchion with weapon specialisation Average Damage 7 + STR + PA (15-20 x2)
bitznarf 07-24-07, 09:28 AM	When enlarged the benefit goes back to the Great Falchion: Keen Large Great Falchion Average Damge 10.5 + STR + PA (15-20/x2) Keen Large Falchion with weapon spec Average Damge 9 + STR + PA (15-20/x2)
Pint_Glass_Crusader 07-25-07, 08:10 AM	One mention of the "Keen Great Falcion" and everyone goes into mathmatical overload! :dancin: As a [primary] Monk player, I shed a bucket of tears as in my last game (few days ago) one of my secondary characters (a Ranger) gots access to a "Monk's Belt"! So I've changed my mind on my earlier post, a special mission for a singular access to a wondrous item/weapon or armour type (like keen etc.) or even a particular spell for arcane casters. Is not going to unbalance the LG game and if a player wants to "blow" their special for the year on a [material] reward... why not.
TetsujinOni 07-25-07, 09:37 AM	So I've changed my mind on my earlier post, a special mission for a singular access to a wondrous item/weapon or armour type (like keen etc.) or even a particular spell for arcane casters. Is not going to unbalance the LG game and if a player wants to "blow" their special for the year on a [material] reward... why not. Perceived special treatment of players by Triad is bad. Special Mission approval is a Triad thing. Let alone the potential for non-balance-related issues.
seraphimpunk 07-26-07, 11:29 AM	the only thing i wish they'd change is racial substitution level / alternate class feature access. Similar to how they say that certain adventures are of interest to paladins or knights or to certan meta orgs / thieves guilds, they should say an adventure is of intrest to elves, or druids etc. if the adventure gives access to racial substitution levels for elves and druids.
TetsujinOni 07-26-07, 11:48 AM	the only thing i wish they'd change is racial substitution level / alternate class feature access. Similar to how they say that certain adventures are of interest to paladins or knights or to certan meta orgs / thieves guilds, they should say an adventure is of intrest to elves, or druids etc. if the adventure gives access to racial substitution levels for elves and druids. Move your character to Bissel. Check the Bissel yahoo group for the new Bissel omnibus for why you might want to.